Is school a waste of time? (split)

[rage2]

See, what I see here is 2 groups of people.

Group 1 can juggle a job AND school, and have no problems paying for their car, some even mods.

Group 2 can't handle the workload of school and a job. There can be many reasons, different priorities (family, partying), genetics (just not the brightest kid), other obligations, can't deal with stress, whatever...

Its quite simple. If you're in group one like I was, enjoy what you have. If you're in group two, take the bus, or change whatever you need to so you can work for yourself.

Nothing in life is free... unless you have rich parents. Even if you have a rich girlfriend, you have to work to get her to pay for your stuff! (I'm sure that line of work is a lot more enjoyable tho haha) :)

Here's some advice. If driving is so important to you, drop outta school and work. Depending on your career path and amount of work after dropping out, you could be either driving a beater for the rest of your life, or you can beat all your peers and be blingin' in a Mercedes, Porsche, Ferrari well before everyone else.

But at least you're driving! :rofl:

[Kid_a]

^^

hahahah you'd be the worst Dad ever!

"Drop out of school son, you can then afford to modify your car :)"

ahhaa jk

[rage2]

It's a fact of life. If you look at school as an investment, it really isn't that great of an investment unless you are aiming to be a Doctor or Lawyer (or other professions) that REQUIRE a degree.

Talk to anyone that has your average degree, and what jobs they ended up working afterwards, and what career path they ended up taking. 90% of the time, the job/career that they took will NOT require a degree or is completely unrelated to their degree, making it a complete waste of time and money.

Remember, 4 or 5 years of college and university costs a lot of money. That and it takes away 4 or 5 years of earning potential. So if you work it out...

If you went to school for 5 years, you'd be $50,000 in debt. If you worked for 5 years, and earned let's say $25,000 a year to start with a 10% raise every year...

year1 - $25,000
year2 - $27,500
year3 - $30,250
year4 - $33,275
year5 - $36,603

That's $152,628. The difference between the two is a whopping $202,628!

Most grads, at LEAST 50%, I'd say around 70-80%, that get a degree will end up with a job that starts at the same salary, much like guys coming out of high school. And it'll take the same amount of time to advance to different jobs/positions to pay more. So, if you work it out to 10 years...

Work out of high school:

year1 - $25,000
year2 - $27,500
year3 - $30,250
year4 - $33,275
year5 - $36,603
year6 - $40,263
year7 - $44,289
year8 - $48,718
year9 - $53,590
year10 - $58949

10 year total - $398,437

Go to school for 5 years, graduate, work for 5 years.

year 1-5 : $50,000 in debt (even more if you don't live at home)
year6 - $25,000
year7 - $27,500
year8 - $30,250
year9 - $33,275
year10 - $36,603

10 year total - $102,628

Difference between the 2? $295,809

So... in conclusion, I'm not gonna be a bad father, your dad is a bad father, brain washing you with all that stay in school crap! :rofl:

BTW - I dropped out :).

[max_boost]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
VEry good Rage but still, stay in school kids. Do most corporations hire kids that come straight out of high school anyway? I'm not exactly sure what skill set a high school kid would possess that would even warrant him any consideration from most businesses.:dunno:

[rage2]

Originally posted by max_boost
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
VEry good Rage but still, stay in school kids. Do most corporations hire kids that come straight out of high school anyway?
No, and they won't hire straight out of college/university with a basic degree either. Ask any CPSC grad how fun it is trying to get a job right out of school. If you think a U of C degree will get you up the corporate ladder fast, you're kidding yourself. Wanna work at a large company straight out of school? Make sure that school's an Ivy League school! I can make a strong case against that as well, seeing as how expensive "brand name schools" cost. :rofl:

Regardless if you come out of high school or university, you're gonna start working at a small company first. From there, you get experience, network and meet people, then move up.


Originally posted by max_boost
I'm not exactly sure what skill set a high school kid would possess that would even warrant him any consideration from most businesses.:dunno:
Depends on the person of course. Me, straight out of high school, I started my own company. That's one option. I could've worked tech support at a startup and worked my way up quick (which is what I did later after I gave up on my business). One of my coworkers started work as a secretary, and is now the Sales Manager. These aren't unique cases, it happens ALL the time in today's workplace, where schools are so behind in their teachings compared to what happens in the real world. This is especially true for programmers or IT guys, technology is moving forward WAY faster than any school out there.

E36M3 is another great example... no post secondary education, probably the blingest one on beyond :).

[RiCE-DaDDy]

wtf i expect to be makin a hell of a lot more than 25k when i get outta school

[tulit]

rage, I think you are missing one of the most important reasons to go to school. It is not so much what you learn while you are there (I pretty much knew everything I know now going in--from the technical perspective), but rather it forces you to think in different ways than you normally would have.

One thing they kept telling us over and over is that they are teaching us HOW to learn, and I fully agree with that.

I often run into people I knew before (from HS, 1st yr university dropouts) and they always ask me why waste 5, 7, 10 years or whatever going to University. Sure they may start out of HS with a similar salary as a new grad, but the opportunities to move up are a lot easier if you have that piece of paper, so it doesn't take long to overtake them.

But I guess it all depends a lot on a persons personal goals, and your own personal abilities.

[rage2]

Originally posted by RiCE-DaDDy
wtf i expect to be makin a hell of a lot more than 25k when i get outta school
How much were u expecting? I mean, if you were expecting a $50k/yr job to start, you've really been brainwashed well!

Originally posted by tulit
One thing they kept telling us over and over is that they are teaching us HOW to learn, and I fully agree with that.
Yes I definately agree with that, but remember, 12 years of school (13 if you count kindergarden) has already taught you how to learn. The only difference with University is that you learn how to be more responsible, because nobody is there to take attendance and give you shit for not going to class. So I guess if you're not a responsible person, then post secondary education is for you ;).


Originally posted by tulit
I often run into people I knew before (from HS, 1st yr university dropouts) and they always ask me why waste 5, 7, 10 years or whatever going to University. Sure they may start out of HS with a similar salary as a new grad, but the opportunities to move up are a lot easier if you have that piece of paper, so it doesn't take long to overtake them.
I've never seen that piece of paper be able to help someone get a position over someone else, unless that piece of paper is a masters degree or something. Everything I've seen, from my work to friend's work, it's always the person with more abilities and "superstar qualities" that gets the promotion.

Maybe that's just my field of work... I guess it could be different in other fields.

[tulit]

Yes I definately agree with that, but remember, 12 years of school (13 if you count kindergarden) has already taught you how to learn.
I have to disagree with that. University definately teaches you how to learn on a new level or maybe in a different way. I definately don't think now like I did when I got out of HS.


I've never seen that piece of paper be able to help someone get a position over someone else, unless that piece of paper is a masters degree or something. Everything I've seen, from my work to friend's work, it's always the person with more abilities and "superstar qualities" that gets the promotion.

Thats often the case true. But these people, while I spent my 5 years at school are still where they started 5 years ago.
Obviously theres always exceptions and University doesn't equal success (or it doesn't mean to suceed you have to have your degree). A lot of the guys I graduated with in my program are working minimum wage jobs. I beleive it DOES help open those doors though and make it easier to succeed --- it's not a complete waste of time imo.

[max_boost]

I can't really argue because I've never had any other job besides my current restaurant gig. I just always thought a University graduate on paper at least, looks much more favorable than a kid straight out of highschool. Main reason is, high school punks are immature where as someone who's been through a few years of University is probably more mature and responsible.:dunno:

Currently, I'm three classes away from my Marketing Diploma and another ten away from my Degree. To best honest, this education won't me do much in the short term but at least keeps my options open for the future. But I still want to pursue my dream as a Professional Poker player and join the WPT. LOL :rofl: I would hate to be one of those 30+ students who go back to school and get their degree. I might as well get it now, even if it means juggling 10 hours of school, 60+hours of work/week:eek: Ahh whatever.....:eek: :rofl:

[E36M3]

I don't think you can go wrong with post-secondary education.. you may or may not learn something useful, but I think that is kind of a secondary benefit anyway.

The reason I regret not finishing school is the social opportunities.. tons of women away from home for the first time, constant partying and the opportunity to be exposed to stuff that you wouldn't normally be exposed to.

I'm going to quit working sometime and go back to school.. I think it is pretty much an ideal life. I'm not really into anything practical at school.. I can't imagine getting through medical school or something stressful like that, but I would like to do something silly like a phd in Philosophy or something like that.

Bottom line is that I don't think that university is necessarily a good investment from a financial perspective in a lot of cases.. when you run the numbers it just doesn't add up for a lot of people. I know that I blew about 15k or so on university before I dropped out and the time I spent going to school definitely hurt me financially in opportunity cost (the amount of money I wasn't making while focusing on school).

The payoff from a good education when you really put your soul into it can be amazing though.

[rage2]

Originally posted by tulit
Thats often the case true. But these people, while I spent my 5 years at school are still where they started 5 years ago.
Obviously theres always exceptions and University doesn't equal success (or it doesn't mean to suceed you have to have your degree). A lot of the guys I graduated with in my program are working minimum wage jobs. I beleive it DOES help open those doors though and make it easier to succeed --- it's not a complete waste of time imo.
Not a COMPLETE waste of time, but it's a waste of time and money if you look at it as an investment. So if we look at it from an investment point of view, would you make that investment against someone? ;)

Fact is, like you stated, it really depends on the person. As for opening doors, it's really hard to say. For programming roles at our office, CPSC degrees don't really mean much, even though you would think it's a pre-requesit, it's not. If you're 18 and have "mad skills" as a programmer, we'll hire you and pay you really well, and advance your salary insanely fast. Faster than an average programmer with even a Phd.

And since it depends on the person, really, a university degree is a waste of time. Good people will get up there quickly without a degree, and average or below average people, even with a degree, will be working min. wage jobs. Both you and I know a lot of those people.

[rage2]

On a related note... here's a hilarious ad :).

http://www.fedex.com/us/about/advertising/tvads/mbawm.html?link=4

[max_boost]

Originally posted by rage2
On a related note... here's a hilarious ad :).

http://www.fedex.com/us/about/advertising/tvads/mbawm.html?link=4 :rofl: haha I love that commercial! LOL 'I have an MBA', 'In that case I'll have to to show you how to do it':rofl:

E36M3, I agree with you. To be able to say you have a PHD, now that's just freaking cool!! haha If I was rich enough to not have to work and could still live comfortably, I would go back to school, just for fun and learn! My gf thinks I'm crazy when I tell her this stuff. She just wants to finish ASAP. :rofl:

[rage2]

Originally posted by E36M3
The reason I regret not finishing school is the social opportunities.. tons of women away from home for the first time, constant partying and the opportunity to be exposed to stuff that you wouldn't normally be exposed to.
I have a different POV than you here... I partied hard in the 2 years that I attended university. I TOTALLY regret it now because I spent so much money, put myself in a lot of debt, and have nothing to show for it except for a few cool stories. If I had to do it again, I would not have done it.

I do, however, wish that I had the money that I have now during school. Talk about the social opportunities there! :rofl:

Originally posted by E36M3
I'm going to quit working sometime and go back to school.. I think it is pretty much an ideal life. I'm not really into anything practical at school.. I can't imagine getting through medical school or something stressful like that, but I would like to do something silly like a phd in Philosophy or something like that.
:werd:

I'm thinking of doing the same thing, my wife thinks I'm nuts. I want to go to school to learn something that I dunno but have a lot of interest in. Either mechanical engineering or aeronautical engineering. At which point, I'd have money and security even if it doesn't turn out well.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by rage2

How much were u expecting? I mean, if you were expecting a $50k/yr job to start, you've really been brainwashed well!



I just graduated from U of C engineering, got a job within 2 months. I make a bit over $50K/year as a starting wage. And without my degree they wouldn't even look at my resume....So I guess it depends what you take in school doesn't it now :poosie:

[rage2]

Originally posted by altima
I just graduated from U of C engineering, got a job within 2 months. I make a bit over $50K/year as a starting wage. And without my degree they wouldn't even look at my resume....So I guess it depends what you take in school doesn't it now :poosie:

Originally posted by rage2
It's a fact of life. If you look at school as an investment, it really isn't that great of an investment unless you are aiming to be a Doctor or Lawyer (or other professions) that REQUIRE a degree.
You don't count, your job REQUIRES a degree ;).

[Kid_a]

Originally posted by rage2

How much were u expecting? I mean, if you were expecting a $50k/yr job to start, you've really been brainwashed well!




I suppose it depends on the situation as well, I'm currently at the Faculté St. Jean in Edmonton (French campus of UofA) and there I'm taking a 5 year plan in Education (going to be a social studies teacher.)

Being a french immersion teacher, I can pretty much work wherever I want, it's a huge advantage, so there is NO worry about job availability.

Also, the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM you get paid for your first year with 5 years of education is $46,089/year, and after 11 years of experience, the minimum is around $69,000/yr. These figures are what they HAVE to pay you, so you can only get more or equal.

Imo that is worth it, but of course people with soc or psych degrees are a dime a dozen, and really, it's not worth it IMO for them.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by rage2


You don't count, your job REQUIRES a degree ;). .

oops i didn't see that part. yeah engg is a Professional degree. It literally pays to be a Dork :nut:

[kaput]

.

[Kid_a]

Originally posted by kaput
School is a waste of time if you take something stupid, and most of the programs offered are stupid.


agreed.

[Shaolin]

rage is right about the tech industry.. I started in tech and now in the finance field... all my tech friends are all making a good living and guess what, about 95% of them have university education (but dropped out) or only have high school.. but the shit they teach you in school is so behind it's not worth paying 10k a year to go to Bow Valley College or whatever to learn how to use powerpoint :rolleyes:

I have friends in the tech industry in the states that run their own business or work for a bigwig. Hell, a friend of mine is going to retire in 10 years, and he's only 21! But the stuff he knows is incredible, all self taught.. started his business 5 years ago (specialize in Internet Security), and now blings like no other 21 year old I've ever met. All university would've done was hold him back. The stuff he knows probably doesn't even get taught in school just yet because they're so dam behind. But that's the tech industry.

School's more important for other industries though, like Accounting, Finance, etc.. stuff like this doesn't really change like the tech industry, so in those industries university is more of a networking tool more than anything. The people I've met at school (U of L night classes) I probably wouldn't have the ability to meet if I wasn't in school.. at least 50% of the people I talk to are professionals in low-mid level management taking courses because the company's paying for it and they're getting more money after they're done. If that's not a good networking tool I don't know what is, especially for those Management majors who expect to just walk out making 40+ a year with their intensive 4-12 month cooperative experience. Be ready for a huge reality check..

[Shaolin]

Originally posted by kaput
School is a waste of time if you take something stupid, and most of the programs offered are stupid.

Like a general psychology degree :D

[Ben]

I find it comical that so many people these days get mad at others or feel they need to be so vocal on why they go to school and why I should to.

Fact one. I'm not you, I dont have the same goals. Being a Doctor/Lawyer/MBA might not be my passion. What you want is your perogative. So if anyone plans on coming on to say "Yeah well I'm going to make more than you and have a glorious job as a XXXXXXXX, I dont give a fuck. GFY.

In a lot of ways I have to agree with rage, as by the looks of it, I share the same beliefs.

I had great marks in HS, was going to go to UofC to take commerce followed by Law (Corporate Law). When I graduated from HS, almost all my friends I hung out with all moved away to different schools, but I didn't want to leave home. So here I was with no HS friends, and spending the summer with new friends instead.

So I take a year off. I network with dozens of people, and land an entry level job at TELUS. (Here's a HS punk getting in with a big corporation example Sam :) ) Why did I get the job? Because I can sell Ice to an eskimo, and am extremely professional. I didn't need UofC to teach me responsibility. My parents taught me the ways of the world all through growing up. I didnt get handed new cars and money and all that growing up. I had a job at 15, and paid my way ever since. I wasn't fortunate to have a family business like a lot of people on here, or a rich realative to die and pay for everything. And thats fine, because I know everything I have is from my hard work.

3 Years later I'm in a new dept. IT dept at that, doing realativly entry level stuff, but hey, it pays 36-40k full time to start. Plus we get involved with employee share programs. Things will only get better, lots and lots of opportunity in high places in this dept. Plus it gives me the freedom to put time into my part time photo work. Best of all, BOTH jobs I enjoy doing. I dont wake up in the morning and groan about going to work.

As rage2 mentioned...unless you are interested in a job that you absolutly NEED a degree and such, well yeah, do it. All you people that are going to post secondary because you want a job that pays lots, thats fine, but I sure hope you like that field of work. Going to school for the sake of going is not a good idea. Nothing worse than spending all that time and money, only to realize you hate it and now you've got a specific education you dont want to use. Plus working 70-80 hr weeks and being on call is not my idea of fun also. Not all professionals have cushy jobs where they work from the golf course.

For me, University is like Religion...some people need this crutch to live, some people dont. I'm a Entrepreneur. I like to try things out and dabble in things I enjoy. I dont need to sit in a class for years spending thousands of dollars to learn how to be responsible. I just go out and do it.

Sure, right now I still drive a beat car and whatever, but things take time. With smart money management and investing myself and my money into GOOD investments, things will happen over time.

[Chim]

I don't know where you guys are getting the idea that school is useless :confused:

Best job I could get out of high school was shitty canadian tire $7.50/hr.

My bud's cousin graduated from finance and started with a 6 digit salary, but thats kind of an extreme (3.9 gpa, lots of investing experience)

I agree that art, philosophy, etc degrees are pretty useless. But you make it sound like all of post secondary is a waste of time.

[Kid_a]

Originally posted by Chim
I don't know where you guys are getting the idea that school is useless :confused:

Best job I could get out of high school was shitty canadian tire $7.50/hr.

My bud's cousin graduated from finance and started with a 6 digit salary, but thats kind of an extreme (3.9 gpa, lots of investing experience)

I agree that art, philosophy, etc degrees are pretty useless. But you make it sound like all of post secondary is a waste of time.


7.50 is a sad salary out of highschool, theres much better avail. in construction, airports, rigs, etc.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Chim
Best job I could get out of high school was shitty canadian tire $7.50/hr.
Did you even LOOK for a job? An entry level office job, which only requires high school, pays $25k easy. That's $12/hr. If you just go for superstore, canadian tire, etc. then yes, you'll be working a shitty job. But that's not my fault, or anyone elses, but your own.

[Shaolin]

If you can type on a keyboard without looking at your fingers, you'll get at least 12 an hour. I was making almost 14 doing that over the summer as a temp, and that was YEARS ago.

[lint]

I think one of the key points that has been missed that it's not only about the education that you have, but an individual's drive to succeed. Some people you can put into any situation, and they will succeed. Others, good luck.

I don't think that an education is useless. Even if you don't end up working in a field directly related to your field, having a degree is beneficial because it's a plus. It also shows that you were able to commit to something for at least 4 years, and that you have another dimension that you can bring to an organization. With all things being equal, most organizations will hire someone with more education. Whether it's a degree or a diploma or a certificate. There are exceptions to the rule, but it depends on the demographics of the market. When the tech industry was hot, so many IT grads were dropping out of school to grab the money and the jobs while the getting was good. But when the layoffs happened and they were out looking for work, along with the thousands of other jobless IT folks, the ones with degrees got a leg up.

As for the example of getting 10% raises a year. If you get it, great. That is not industry standard. Typical would be more along the lines of 2-6% /year.

You get out what you put in. Regardless of what you do.

[CelicaST-162]

Just graduated high school in june, now I work at Toyota as an apprentice!

[max_boost]

You don't need to go to school to make $100K:D And honestly, $100k/year is more than enough unless you want to live like the rich and famous. You need to work really hard and smart, and things will eventually fall into place.

I find that some people spend too much envying what others have, instead of worrying about that, pay more attention to your situation and make due with what you have.

But no, school is not a waste of time; I'm telling my 15 year old brother that. Stay in school, get awesome grades and I'll send him to any post secondary institution in the world. I wanted to go away for University but couldn't because of my restaurant obligations. He doesn't need to worry about that shit and a restaurant is a hard life and having been through that, I don't want him to travel the same road.

[Weapon_R]

School is not a waste of time. Those who went there and completed will attest to it. Those who did not and struck it lucky will argue otherwise, but always tend to forget that they are a small, small portion of society. The majority of uneducated people in our society have lower paying jobs than those of individuals with ANY post secondary education, and that is reality.

[Ben]

Originally posted by Weapon_R
School is not a waste of time. Those who went there and completed will attest to it. Those who did not and struck it lucky will argue otherwise, but always tend to forget that they are a small, small portion of society. The majority of uneducated people in our society have lower paying jobs than those of individuals with ANY post secondary education, and that is reality.

I wont argue this at all. A lot has to do with how you apply yourself. Apply yourself at school, you generally succeed, apply yourself on your own, you can succeed. Depends on who you are as a person.

[kiwi]

Originally posted by Weapon_R
School is not a waste of time. Those who went there and completed will attest to it. Those who did not and struck it lucky will argue otherwise, but always tend to forget that they are a small, small portion of society. The majority of uneducated people in our society have lower paying jobs than those of individuals with ANY post secondary education, and that is reality.

AGREED!

[E36M3]

What might be a better measure is how intellignce and drive relate to the success of an individual.

Of course people who went to university will on average make more than those who don't -- it isn't easy for an average person to get into university and stick it out till the end. Above average people in terms of intelligence and drive will probably go to university, at least for a while.. I don't disagree with that.

What I don't necessarily agree with is that going to university pays for itself as an investment in many cases. I know lots of people who went to school and did well and I know lots of people who didn't go to university or quit and did equally as well.. it is really a matter of the individual.


Originally posted by Weapon_R
School is not a waste of time. Those who went there and completed will attest to it. Those who did not and struck it lucky will argue otherwise, but always tend to forget that they are a small, small portion of society. The majority of uneducated people in our society have lower paying jobs than those of individuals with ANY post secondary education, and that is reality.

[Mckenzie]

Originally posted by Weapon_R
School is not a waste of time. Those who went there and completed will attest to it. Those who did not and struck it lucky will argue otherwise, but always tend to forget that they are a small, small portion of society. The majority of uneducated people in our society have lower paying jobs than those of individuals with ANY post secondary education, and that is reality.

:werd: x100

Thank you for saying something.

It has been proven that even though a student will acquire debt along the way to an undergrad degree, they have a higher income ceiling than the average person without. And this is considering that they start making money 5 years later then the other person.

Look at the major oil companies: 95% of senior management all have MBAs and Undergrad degrees, if not an Engineering degree. Experience wont get you there alone. Educated people have an extra weapon in their arsenal against uneducated people.

The IT sector may be different (which I can see), but in the business world, education is huge....however I wont try to tell this to Bill Gates or Michael Dell. But as before mentioned, they are a very very small percentage of society with luck.

A friend of mine is doing his MBA at the Uni and him and his GF have a contract with Epcor billing them at $110/hour. Good luck to the person with 4 or 5 years working experience getting this contract. People with higher education demand higher pay....and the labor market works like a perfect free market with respect to this.

Dont get me wrong, experience and personality are huge factors when hiring. BUT! Your education is a direct reflection of your experience and personality. It shows your interests, your work ethic, dedication and so on and so on.

A person out of high school has a lot longer road to travel when advancing. So big deal you can get $12 in construction or in a warehouse...why kind of start is that?....then what...you move up to $24 or $25 per hour and you make that for the rest of your life doing grunt labor and breaking your back....I made it to $18/hour in 2 seasons with the City of Calgary and I could have been at $21 in another 2 years with a few weeks of training. I've been down the construction industry road and the money is not in starting from the bottom and working up. Most journeymen make roughly the same wage ($24-$32/hour) regardless of occupation, unless they are the head contractor. That is a completely different story.

But as for office/business world jobs, you would be hard pressed to work your way up from mail clerk to senior management these days without an education WHEN competing with someone who has one. The dynamics of the working environment these days are much different then our parents generation.

[E36M3]

Founders of companies are often college dropouts. They don't fit the normal mold. Lots of senior managers have MBAs -- that is what MBAs are for, but in my experience it is very rarely a requirement.

A degree in most cases gets you your first job.. nothing more, nothing less. An employer who is looking at someone's resume with 15 years of relevant experience could really care less if they have a BA in Sociology.. it just doesn't matter. I can say this because I employ hundreds of people and look at resumes every day.. and I am not talking only about the IT sector (most of my employees are in non-IT roles).

If you're an entrepreneur and want to start your own business, school will often not be the right choice for you to help with that. If you'd like to get a job that requires specialized training (ie. Engineering) then university is the way to go.

If you don't care about the applicability of your education and are there to truly learn something interesting, then there is a huge opportunity available at University and I think it is cheap for what you can get.


Originally posted by Mckenzie


:werd: x100

Thank you for saying something.

It has been proven that even though a student will acquire debt along the way to an undergrad degree, they have a higher income ceiling than the average person without. And this is considering that they start making money 5 years later then the other person.

Look at the major oil companies: 95% of senior management all have MBAs and Undergrad degrees, if not an Engineering degree. Experience wont get you there alone. Educated people have an extra weapon in their arsenal against uneducated people.

The IT sector may be different (which I can see), but in the business world, education is huge....however I wont try to tell this to Bill Gates or Michael Dell. But as before mentioned, they are a very very small percentage of society with luck.

A friend of mine is doing his MBA at the Uni and him and his GF have a contract with Epcor billing them at $110/hour. Good luck to the person with 4 or 5 years working experience getting this contract. People with higher education demand higher pay....and the labor market works like a perfect free market with respect to this.

Dont get me wrong, experience and personality are huge factors when hiring. BUT! Your education is a direct reflection of your experience and personality. It shows your interests, your work ethic, dedication and so on and so on.

A person out of high school has a lot longer road to travel when advancing. So big deal you can get $12 in construction or in a warehouse...why kind of start is that?....then what...you move up to $24 or $25 per hour and you make that for the rest of your life doing grunt labor and breaking your back....I made it to $18/hour in 2 seasons with the City of Calgary and I could have been at $21 in another 2 years with a few weeks of training. I've been down the construction industry road and the money is not in starting from the bottom and working up. Most journeymen make roughly the same wage ($24-$32/hour) regardless of occupation, unless they are the head contractor. That is a completely different story.

But as for office/business world jobs, you would be hard pressed to work your way up from mail clerk to senior management these days without an education WHEN competing with someone who has one. The dynamics of the working environment these days are much different then our parents generation.

[E36M3]

Great article:

http://www.education-reform.net/dropouts_text.htm

Talks about some exceptional people that quit school.. also talks about the potential harm that school can do to people like this. Well written and definitely worth a read.

[7thgenvic]

Originally posted by Ben


I wont argue this at all. A lot has to do with how you apply yourself. Apply yourself at school, you generally succeed, apply yourself on your own, you can succeed. Depends on who you are as a person.

wooooord! but honestly these days you almost need to put that extra investment to get anywhere in your life, without a post secondary education, its hard to find a decent job,! YES you have to apply yourself to get anywhere, but its a little easier with some kind of degree to get a job. Sure there are many people who can finish HS and work their way up to making a decent salary, but honeslty i would rather learn for 5 years, have fun at school, make the right connections and graduate with a degree that pretty much opens opportunities for my future.

i don't feel like owning my own lawn car company for the rest of my life and mowing lawns getting 20 bucks an hour!

i just hope my education pays off, i believe its better to have a education then to hope to strike it rich!

-jonny

[Mckenzie]

Originally posted by E36M3

A degree in most cases gets you your first job.. nothing more, nothing less. An employer who is looking at someone's resume with 15 years of relevant experience could really care less if they have a BA in Sociology.. it just doesn't matter. I can say this because I employ hundreds of people and look at resumes every day.. and I am not talking only about the IT sector (most of my employees are in non-IT roles).

If you don't care about the applicability of your education and are there to truly learn something interesting, then there is a huge opportunity available at University and I think it is cheap for what you can get.



I generally agree with this. I was trying to make the point about the years and job prospects right after grad. It would be hard to tell an employer that you want to start in a position out of high school that teaches you how to become a _____. Qualifications are important for a lot of positions.

In the future that far down the road, with some exceptions, what type of degree it is does not really matter.

As for that article, my only criticisim is that the people are very old. The dynamics of their working environment are much different then ours today. I do agree with the point made about following passions...these people are the ones who succeeded Unfortunately, many people fail doing this as well....look how many people want to be a rockstar but will spend their entire life looking for that break and never get it.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mckenzie
A friend of mine is doing his MBA at the Uni and him and his GF have a contract with Epcor billing them at $110/hour. Good luck to the person with 4 or 5 years working experience getting this contract.
I had contracts with an oil company, as well as several high schools that paid $160/hr. This was a year after I dropped out of university.

Contract work is the EASIEST to get when you're out there, as long as you can prove yourself. When was the last time you asked a contractor what education they had?

[rage2]

Originally posted by 7thgenvic
wooooord! but honestly these days you almost need to put that extra investment to get anywhere in your life, without a post secondary education, its hard to find a decent job,!
I dunno what kinda jobs you're looking for, but really, basic office jobs do NOT require post secondary education. When we see people with degrees looking for base jobs, we don't even bother because they're overqualified and will ask for too much money (that's why a lot of resumes for the basic office jobs I see omit post secondary education even tho they have it... like it's a bad thing).

From there, companys are happy to hire internally vs externally. If you prove yourself in an office help job, you can move up to different areas by performing well at your job. We have a few employees working for us that started out in a secretarial role, and moved up quickly by going above and beyond their duties at work.


Originally posted by Mckenzie
I generally agree with this. I was trying to make the point about the years and job prospects right after grad. It would be hard to tell an employer that you want to start in a position out of high school that teaches you how to become a _____. Qualifications are important for a lot of positions.
See above comment. One of our tech support people started out as a receptionist. She took on more duties, learned what she needed and asked to get moved into that department, which she did and is doing well there.

Our sales manager started out as a receptionist as well. Moved onto office admin, then sales, then large account sales, and recently sales manager. All within a span of 4 years. She did so by doing amazing work in each position, and proving that she's responsible, and can learn. School has nothing to do with it in both cases.

These are not out of the ordinary scenarios... it happens EVERY single day in EVERY company.

[GTS Jeff]

university is not for everyone and it is not necessarily the best route for everyone either. most undergrad degrees will start u off at about 30k/year, which is pretty pathetic too.

with that said, university education does have lots to offer to some people. first off, education offers education. imo an educated person is a better person. theres no disputing that. second, a degree when used in the right way is sort of like a certification of smartness. u can wave it in peoples faces to prove how great and wonderful u are. there are other "certificates of smartness" like fat portfolios, a strong personality, etc etc, but having a degree is also one of them. third, university education when used properly in conjunction with all the other moneymaking qualities will probably make u even more money in the end.

like, sure im a business minded individual and im positive that i could leap into a business and earn some cake...but im even more positive that having an education AND doing the same thing will net even more.

again, this isnt for everyone. many times i see people struggling thru university wasting time and money when theyd be better off learning to be a plumber at sait.

[R-Audi]

As it has been said before, it really depends on the particular person on how they do financially and job wise. For the most part it requires a person with a lot of drive and motivation, and from what I have seen (In my opinion) that drive usually makes them want to learn more. The easiest way to do so is enrolling in post secondary education, but there are those who can do it on their own and succeed. It is really just different paths to take. Having a University degree or diploma often shows that you can learn at a higher level, and are motivated to do more with yourself.

I also really think it comes down to the industry and job. I will be graduating in December with a B. Mngt (same as B.Comm) and for the most part, it won't directly get me a great job. I do expect a minimum of around $40K and that can easily rise with more experience and education. (Currently taking my Canadian Securities Course as well) After talking to a few large company executives, anything that you have done course wise, whether relavent or not gets you one step ahead. Something that I have and someone else doesn't, can get me ahead. There are a lot of skills that I have learned in University that will make me succesful in life, and there are courses which have been a waste of time. I can't argue that.
For the jobs I will be applying for, I would have no chance to get without my education. I dont care if I start out as a secretary, I wouldn't be able to climb the 'corporate ladder' as fast or as easily as someone with the educational background in that field of work.
On the other hand, in the technical industry for example, there are many positions where the skills are easily self taught, and school may not help out as much as other industries.

I really don't think anyone can fairly say that education is a waste of time, nor can I say that anyone without it will be unsuccesful in life. Everything comes down to the person, but I do think an education can get you a step ahead, and opens up more doors. Whether or not you feel that school is for you is your choice.

[Ajay]

Originally posted by R-Audi

I really don't think anyone can fairly say that education is a waste of time, nor can I say that anyone without it will be unsuccesful in life. Everything comes down to the person, but I do think an education can get you a step ahead, and opens up more doors. Whether or not you feel that school is for you is your choice.

:werd:

To say education is a waste of time or to say that without an education you won't get anywhere in my opinion is very ignorant. Going to post secondary isn't suited to a fair amount of people. Be it because of financial issues, no interest, or whatever it is that makes that person feel they don't need or want a post secondary education. If those people feel that they can become successful and be happy with their position in life then the more power to them and good luck with everything you strive for.

For others education is something that has a different meaning. The person with a degree DOES have more opportunities generally speaking. A fair amount of employers could care less what type of degree a person has but just the fact they have a degree shows that these people are committed to learning and achieving a goal. I'm not saying that people that don't have a degree can't learn or have no goals but that little piece of paper that says Bachelors of _________ does make a difference to some employers. Obviously like rage said you have to go to school if you want to be a dentist, doctor, or engineers because the education you receive for these disciplines is invaluable to the future of your career.

There's really no point in bashing other types of degrees either (i.e. Sociology, Philosophy) because a fair amount of these people are using these undergrad degrees to get into some other field (i.e. Law) or are pursuing further education in that said field to gain some type of professional designation be it for teaching or whatever. The more power to them. I need my degree because after a few years I plan on getting my MBA. That has been my goal since I was in the 11th grade to have my MBA because with an MBA opportunities can be limitless. Obviously in order to receive an MBA you need to accomplish an undergraduate degree of some type.

It's true like Ben said....the debate on education is like religion. Those people who have been successful without an education are going to be more prone to discount education while those who are pursuing an education or have pursued an education with great results after graduation are going to praise the value of a higher education.

The point is.....you gotta be happy with what you're doing and where you are regardless if it's with an education or without.

[dj_honda]

Originally posted by rage2

These aren't unique cases, it happens ALL the time in today's workplace, where schools are so behind in their teachings compared to what happens in the real world. This is especially true for programmers or IT guys, technology is moving forward WAY faster than any school out there.

Even though i am studying Elec Engineering, i can attest to that. My summer job this year, (a company i have worked summers for since i was 16, and got paid okay) was in a modern machine shop. Basically an expansion of the larger company to do more in house stuff. There were 4 CNC machines there and a bunch of manual ones. In about 4 months of working, i learned how to operate 3 of the 4 CNC machines, 2 new HAAS ones and one older model. One guy there, who is a 3rd year machinist going to school told me that even 2nd year machinist guys dont get to do what i was doing there....so basically for the company it was cheaper for them to hire me as help and as a side my experience was like a crash course in CNC machining. If i wasnt going back to school, i could keep working there and probably work my way up pretty fast!

[rage2]

I think I can sum up both sides of the argument here with one statement...

Don't go to school assuming it's the path to riches... go to school to actually learn something that you're interested in and would like to advance your knowledge in. Otherwise, it's a waste of time and money.

[R-Audi]

Well said Rage!

[JordanLotoski]

LOL...hahah this is funny, i argee to a point, so many spand like 5 years in school to find out there in a job they hate and dont wanna be in...i think its dumb to spend money on cars, iam sellinmg both mine getting cheap ass cars and i mean cheap..maybe a 1995 civic, and dumping the rest into a new home...i still say stay in school, but take a year off to figure out what u wanna do

[JustinL]

There is also a completely different aspect to school that hasn't been discussed much here. The enjoyment of learning.

I've recently gone back to school in the MBA program at the U of A for a few reasons. First of all, I can do it on a part time basis at nights so as not to forego my current salary. But I'm also taking it because I actually enjoy learning. Sure it costs a lot, but it's an enjoyable experience coming away from a course with a new understanding, a new way of thinking or a new way of solving problems.... The oportunities with an MBA are a nice perk too ;)

I also have my B.Sc. in Kinesiology from the UofA, which I needed to land my current job (IMHO the coolest job you can get with a B.SC. Kin, and the pay is not bad either). I loved my time in school, especially the subject matter, and I would do it again in a heartbeat.

Anyway, my point is: do what you enjoy and do it well. If that means going to school to achieve your goals, do it. If you hate school, go get a job that you like. Money can be made with or without a degree; how much money depends on the individual and their drive.

Justin

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by rage2
I think I can sum up both sides of the argument here with one statement...

Don't go to school assuming it's the path to riches... go to school to actually learn something that you're interested in and would like to advance your knowledge in. Otherwise, it's a waste of time and money. So you've answered your own question.

NO!

[kenny]

School to me was like paying really expensive rent! :) The only reason I went to university was to keep the parents happy so I can be a cheap mofo and live off them till im 30 like the good ol' chinese stereotype! :)

School is a big fat waste of time! :thumbsup:

[max_boost]

Originally posted by kenny
School to me was like paying really expensive rent! :) The only reason I went to university was to keep the parents happy so I can be a cheap mofo and live off them till im 30 like the good ol' chinese stereotype! :)

School is a big fat waste of time! :thumbsup: We should now have a thread on, is moving out a waste of time?
Much bigger savings if you swallow your pride and live at home. :rofl: :thumbsup:

[blueripper6]

Originally posted by E36M3
Great article:

http://www.education-reform.net/dropouts_text.htm

Talks about some exceptional people that quit school.. also talks about the potential harm that school can do to people like this. Well written and definitely worth a read.

That article is twisted, it makes it look like its good to drop out of school because without an education you too can win an oscar or *gasp* be a princess. Hell quitting school can help you too die at the alamo. Most of the people(not all) they listed are just famous people. Why do they list people like christopher columbus? its not like he had the chance to get an engineering degree right? That thing should be taken off the net because kids will read it and then be like "I dont need school, ill just get knighted" or think they can quit school and become an actor.

All they did was list actors and famous people who dropped out.. whoop dee-doo.

However, they do list some highly successful business people who didnt go back to school. These people are a small portion of the population, but are so widely talked about because everyone who is in the process of going to school is jealous that they are "wasting my time in this dump." If the people manage to stick it out to the end they will look back and realize that they made the good choice, even if they didnt go into a proffesion for which they went to school. They know they will ALWAYS have a backup plan, dont you think everyone should have a backup plan?
Tell me what you would do if you got laid off tomorrow, sure u have money saved for a rainy day, but do u think u will find a job that can pay the same amount(if you decided to take the first opertunity that came along instead of going to school)

school = cool...

I say go to school, get something you can rely on, if you still have interests in something else you can follow them knowing you have something to cushin you if your idea falls through.

comments?

[rage2]

^^^ brainwashing example at its best! :rofl:

I'm a university drop out. If I got laid off tomorrow, I would take the several job offers I've had over the years from the people I've met working at the current job.

I've had unofficial offers from large companies such as Microsoft and Philip Morris (who owns Marlboro, Kraft, etc.)

Do your job well (in my case well enough to impress managment from these companies), and you'll have offers coming in left and right. At which point, you don't look for jobs, you choose jobs that you want to do.

As for posting only "famous people" in the article, what do u want them to do, highlight some guy like me? There are tons of ppl like me who dropped out and doing awesome (a lot more than you think, our group is NOT a small minority). But nobody would care, and the message would not get across. That and the fact that everyone has pointed out that degree does not equal a job.

Lastly, if you think a degree is a backup plan, prepare to face reality when hiring companies will easily see through the fact that your profession is merely a "backup plan", and you don't really enjoy the work.

[7thgenvic]

dammit rage your making me want to drop outta school!

i agree and disagree at the same time! its just so hard for me to be like well i hope i do something better with my life,

i love to go to school and learn something new, but at the same time it feels like a crutch that im hoping will help me until i heal and can get hired after graduation!

this is a really good thread for once!

more or less i think more of us should do what we want and not what we think society thinks is socially benificial to have a society of university graduates with no jobs, and lets face it universities are giving soooo many graduates to a society that isn't giving as many jobs

[rage2]

Originally posted by 7thgenvic
more or less i think more of us should do what we want and not what we think society thinks is socially benificial to have a society of university graduates with no jobs, and lets face it universities are giving soooo many graduates to a society that isn't giving as many jobs
Yes, finally, someone understands!

But you have to THINK for yourself if you can go out there on your own. I mean, if the only skillset you have is flippin' burgers, I'd think twice about quitting school :). In which case, re-evaluate what you're taking in school, and if it's useful at all, instead of wasting 4 or 5 years on some general degree, and come out with the same skillset of burger flippin'!

It's time to unplug from the Matrix people ;).

[Super_Geo]

I don't know how your time was in University, Rage, but I think if you're enjoying your university experience, you can't even put a dollar figure to it.

The learning and becoming 'smarter' is the obvious benefit, but I think it's also the less important one. You grow so much as a person in university that the maturity alone is worth a lot more than the $7500 a year tuition.

Each year of university somehow ends up being a completely different expereince. First off, there's living in res. Nothing like it around... when else in life will you get 3000-4000 complete strangers (co-ed too) thrown into a building and told to live together? I think everyone who's lived in res will tell you the same thing: if you're looking to get a piece of ass, you'll find it. Everyone's new, everyone's looking to make friends, and just by the numbers, you know there's a slut either on your floor or the one right below yours.

But then you get through all the tomfoolery of first year, you make your core group of friends, and then you guys move into a house for 2nd year... a shitty house, preferably. I lived in a rat cage of a house 2nd year that was across the street from the school. I think I had pictures posted of this shithole on beyond a long time ago, but it was awesome living there. I don't know how many of my high school friends could say "Yeah, we skipped Friday afternoon classes and got absolutely trashed at Ritual (an engineering 'ritual,' where every friday the less-dorky eng kids skip class and get shitfaced at the university pub), came home and spent 20 minutes throwing plates and knives into the wall and trashing the first floor. Then we called a maid to come clean it up and all went upstairs and passed out, came to at around 9pm and went to Truth or Dare Fridays, where girls who you know from classes get on the bar and strip down in a competition where the one who goes the farthest gets $100 (so what invariably happens is that showing your tits gets you into the finals, but showing some muff means going home with $100. No self-respecting girl would do this right? Well, they would if they're drunk! And the best part is that you get to see them in class on Monday). That was every Friday for a lot of people, so if the only reason you're not going to be going to university is that you're afraid that you'll be having a lot more fun elsewhere, then go to university.

FFWD to 3rd year... where you're that much wiser, and you know that living half a block from your classes means that you will never make it to more than 1/3 of your classes, so you get a really nice house that's far from campus but close to the bars, thinking in retrospect that you were an idiot in 2nd year for living so close to campus. But you run into another problem: classes are now a 10 minute walk away, and your house is full of potheads. Also, poker is taking over and unfortuantely you've met enough people who play that you know of private home games on every day of the week. It's the perfect environment to nurture a poker addiction.

I've been lucky enough to make enough money over the summer to cover tution and the cost of living, but even if I couldn't, I don't think I would for a second think about dropping out. Really, there isn't much else like it around. I'd say University is worth it on the experience alone, consider the education a kicker.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Super_Geo
I don't know how your time was in University, Rage, but I think if you're enjoying your university experience, you can't even put a dollar figure to it.
Actually, I enjoyed University a lot. I partied probably the hardest during my University years. I mastered Big2 during year 2 by playing non stop with people at Mac Hall :).

I was just sick of being broke ass all the time. That, and I was in the CPSC program, where I was learning stuff that I already know, or stuff I don't need to know (10 year old technologies). Besides, 2 years of partying and enjoyment was more than enough for me to smarten up, and get out there and make a buck and dig myself outta debt.


Originally posted by Super_Geo
The learning and becoming 'smarter' is the obvious benefit, but I think it's also the less important one. You grow so much as a person in university that the maturity alone is worth a lot more than the $7500 a year tuition.

After I dropped out, I started my own company (Beyond), and did a lot of consulting work. Meeting CEO's of large companies, having to wear a suit (I still hate it), and talk professionally (I'm still a potty mouth), lemme tell ya, I matured QUICK.

I dunno why someone would need University to mature up. I mean, that's a self control thing, shouldn't need anyone's help in acting mature. Juding from your post, you partied pretty hard and did a lot of stupid shit, took long enough for you to mature :rofl:.

[Super_Geo]

Originally posted by rage2

I dunno why someone would need University to mature up. I mean, that's a self control thing, shouldn't need anyone's help in acting mature. Juding from your post, you partied pretty hard and did a lot of stupid shit, took long enough for you to mature :rofl:.

There's more to being mature than having the suit/tie combo with a british accent. I figure you have 4 years of University to grow as a person and really enjoy yourself. What lies ahead is a 9-5, and you have the rest of your life for that. Party it up with your buddies while you can.

[NickGT]

Personally, 1 year of school at SAIT to get my network technician cert was a complete and utter waste of my time (12 courses). Not only was tuition expensive, I quit my job to focus on my studies (which did help, straight A's for every course) which left me as Rage said, a broke ass.

Tuition - $13,500
Lost Wages (from quiting job) - $22,500 approx.

Total: $36000 approx. for one year of education sacrificed :eek:

School own3d me :banghead:

Had I have continued working, living at home, saving, right now I would be living pretty comfortably in my own place. Instead I've got another 4-6 months (keep in mind I've been out of school for almost 2 years by now) of lurking in the parents basement recovering for my terrible investment... :banghead: :banghead: Nuts to school unless your becoming a doctor/lawyer/teacher or other profession that requires it or you already have the job lined up and you just need your papers.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Super_Geo
There's more to being mature than having the suit/tie combo with a british accent. I figure you have 4 years of University to grow as a person and really enjoy yourself. What lies ahead is a 9-5, and you have the rest of your life for that. Party it up with your buddies while you can.
Sure, but why pay for tuition to party it up? That makes even LESS sense. That 4 years of earning could net you so much more, where you can still enjoy yourself while you're still young, instead of being burdened with student loan debt.

Financial freedom is a great thing. School in most cases gets rid of that freedom.

[blueripper6]

Damnit rage!!! U make me want to drop out hehe..

What business do you run? Beyond? how is it profitable.. im a newb.

[rage2]

Beyond was a computer store, which eventually turned into network security consulting. Thanks to shitty paperwork by yours truly, I quit the business thanks to a large fine from Revenue Canada. (gotta hire an accountant haha).

I work for people now, same/more money, better benefits, no critical paperwork.

[R-Audi]

It seems like again the same arguements are brought up, and nothing is settled. It is up to the person to make the most out of university, and to make the most out of the program that they choose. There are some areas where school may not be as helpful, but I think for the majority of the programs, they do more then carry their weight unloaded on you through tuition. I do see a lot of people that go to UNi in their home city, only to keep the same friends, and leave the school as soon as classes are over. That to me is a waste of time!
The best way to get out their and meet potential employers and companies is to get involved early. You would be suprised how many companie support University clubs and activities, and send recruiters to each of these events. What better way to get a job then to befriend potential employers? I have numerous friends that have jobs lined up, with that future employer paying some tuition, and even providing things like laptops as incentives to continue working there after graduation.
When was the last time you saw someone get recruited out of HighSchool?

[beyondpinoy]

ok if you wanna make 30-40grand a year, and live with that, then go ahead, graduate HS and work, and work your way up the ladder, but if you wanna make more then that, go get your self a post secondary education.. cuz it would be better and easier to work up that ladder, and the ladder you will notice is alot longer and higher, then if you were on a "out of high school" ladder, cuz not only does post secondary help mature you, but it also open doors of oppertiunites for more $$$. this may not be the case for everyone, but it is MOST of the time

[Khyron]

Even in the tech industry, having the paper usually beats not having the paper, unless you have some super portfolio/history you can show. Sure there are tons of cases like Rage where a drop-out gets a lucky break, or has the resources to learn on his own (I assume someone paid for those computers you learnt on growing up?). It also gets you past the first level of resume filters - if you just have HS, your resume won't even get seen by our HR dept.

But to say that Rage's case is the norm is absurd - and it has nothing to do with being brainwashed. Many of those people wouldn't be able to just sit down and learn it on their own. If that was the case there would be no school and we'd all just take our textbooks home and write a test at the end of the year.

Plus you learn social skills in a university. There are TONS of people out there who don't know how to interact with a group, or write a report on what you're doing.

I certainly don't think everyone should go to university - if you don't want to go, you probably won't do well. But to say it's a waste of time for everyone unless it's "required" is just as naive as saying everyone should go.

Khyron

[Skyline_Addict]

any suggestions as to where I should go for my Econ Masters'?

[Gainsbarre]

Originally posted by Skyline_Addict
any suggestions as to where I should go for my Econ Masters'?

Not the U of C. Their graduate programme in economics is only for the second rate students who couldn't get into a decent university.

[Ajay]

Originally posted by Khyron

I certainly don't think everyone should go to university - if you don't want to go, you probably won't do well. But to say it's a waste of time for everyone unless it's "required" is just as naive as saying everyone should go.




:werd:

I think that sums up my viewpoint pretty good as well.

[rage2]

Originally posted by beyondpinoy
ok if you wanna make 30-40grand a year, and live with that, then go ahead, graduate HS and work, and work your way up the ladder, but if you wanna make more then that, go get your self a post secondary education.. cuz it would be better and easier to work up that ladder, and the ladder you will notice is alot longer and higher
Are you speaking from experience? How old are you?

Your career is what you make it. Thinking that you'd be capped at 30-40k just cuz you don't have a diploma is silly. Or thinking the ladder is longer because you have that piece of paper... another myth. Truth is, after 10 years of real experience in a field, employers don't give a shit about education, or even whats on your resume. People hear that a star employee quit for whatever reason, they'll get calls the next day from other companies that know about them thru friends/ex-employees, etc. Never ever does a resume even switch hands.

Originally posted by Khyron
Sure there are tons of cases like Rage where a drop-out gets a lucky break
I do NOT consider my position a lucky break. I spent all my time on Beyond, and built up a wealth of experience. I worked HARD at a startup to help build it where it is. If I worked at any other startup and put the same amount of effort in it, the success rate would be just as good as where I am now.

I'm insulted when people say I'm lucky. 18 hour days 7 days a week, sleeping at office, asking for a salary cut in exchange for stock options so the company doesn't have to spend money on me until they make it... those were sacrafices and hard work to get where I am. Just because the job got easier today doesn't mean I didn't earn it.


Originally posted by Khyron
or has the resources to learn on his own (I assume someone paid for those computers you learnt on growing up?).
Yes, my parents bought me my first computer in grade 4. We were ghetto poor back in the day, it was a Tandy with 4K of ram and Microsoft Basic that they bought for $30 at a garage sale. I learned programming by going to the library on my own, borrowing magazines like Nibble, which taught programming, and that's how I learned. 2 other computers were bought between then and university, both cheap, used and vastly underpowered.

It wasn't until I borrowed money from ScCab to put an ad in the computer paper, and started selling computers, before I got my next machine. I had $0 capital to start, basically selling out of my car and cell phone. I negotiated with a supplier a 7 day term to be able to get hardware before paying.

Again, all hard work, which really ANYONE could've done. Nothing I got was really special.


Originally posted by Khyron
if you just have HS, your resume won't even get seen by our HR dept.
Even for a secretary job? :dunno:

Originally posted by Khyron
But to say that Rage's case is the norm is absurd - and it has nothing to do with being brainwashed. Many of those people wouldn't be able to just sit down and learn it on their own. If that was the case there would be no school and we'd all just take our textbooks home and write a test at the end of the year.
Yes, some people need school. I'm just saying that in MANY cases today, school is not the right answer. If you have no idea what you wanna be career wise, and you're in University enrolled in some course to think that it's a backup plan, you should really drop out or re-evaluate your studies.


Originally posted by Khyron
I certainly don't think everyone should go to university - if you don't want to go, you probably won't do well. But to say it's a waste of time for everyone unless it's "required" is just as naive as saying everyone should go.

Not everyone, just a LOT of people IMO.

[maximus]

Well Rage was onto something with his investment idea. When you take into consideration the opportunity costs and such, post secondary education is not always more beneficial. For some degrees with lower initial salaries and different labour market structures, a degree is absolutely a waste of money.

However rage, when you calculate the future value and present value of an education you must add the differential in average income between high school grads and degree holding grads. Although 10% raise a year is high more like 3% in most industries, you must also do the same to the university grad that starts at a higher salary (on average based on statistics) after graduation. To do a proper analysis you must look at all the industry's individually (ie, Mgmt, SS, Eng, etc) because the industry averages are different for each. You must also look at the present discounted values, interest rates etc. So your math is off a bit and dosn't take into account a lot of factors for both sides but the general idea is right.

Then don't forget the non nominal factors and theories of a degree. There are social benefits because education makes people more productive therefore making society more productive. Also, there is signalling theory which suggests that you don't learn anything at all in university. All you do is pay for a signal. This signal is for employers.

We analyzed this and I am also doing a paper for one of my econ classes about the cost/benefit of post secondary education that discusses all this. A preliminary estimate is that a grad must make $35,000 per year to make it all worth while and this is not taking into account burseries and grants.


Originally posted by Skyline_Addict
any suggestions as to where I should go for my Econ Masters'?

I would go to Simon Fraser in BC. Supposedly one of the best econ depts. I'm thinking about it.

And Gainsbarre, you complain an awful lot about the UofC Econ dpt. Its not nearly as bad as you say. You can't exepect everything to be spoon fed to you like high school. You have to show some initiative.

edit: And the computer industry is a totally unique industry. You cannot apply that to most industries. Thats why most of the rags to riches stories are computer based.

[Texas]

I dont think education can be a bad thing at all. I disagree with it being a waste of time because in the end...you are smarter and qualified for SOMETHING. Down in the states...there isnt a lot of this grandfather stuff going on. If you don't have a degree down there, people write you off as hooped and dont usually converse with you. yes, gates, dell, all those guys did well....but there are like 500 million people in North america? The odds arent in your favour as the window of opportunity shrinks every 48 hours. I havent finished my degree, I often wonder if there is any sense...but I guess having the Dr. on my credit cards will be nice :rolleyes: (if I finish) I personally dont look down on anyone who didnt finish a degree or post sec...but high school is another story...that is very basic education...that I think is relative to life. One should at LEAST be able to finish. If I came across a huge windfall if money, I would just go to school until I died.

[7thgenvic]

Originally posted by Texas
I dont think education can be a bad thing at all. I disagree with it being a waste of time because in the end...you are smarter and qualified for SOMETHING. Down in the states...there isnt a lot of this grandfather stuff going on. If you don't have a degree down there, people write you off as hooped and dont usually converse with you. yes, gates, dell, all those guys did well....but there are like 500 million people in North america? The odds arent in your favour as the window of opportunity shrinks every 48 hours. I havent finished my degree, I often wonder if there is any sense...but I guess having the Dr. on my credit cards will be nice :rolleyes: (if I finish) I personally dont look down on anyone who didnt finish a degree or post sec...but high school is another story...that is very basic education...that I think is relative to life. One should at LEAST be able to finish. If I came across a huge windfall if money, I would just go to school until I died.

yes if your dr. then thats a different story and any post secondary education can be of value, i dont' think people should be bashing arts degrees and what such, many arts graduates recieve the same job as BCOMM students, and for one reason, they are more willing to do the jobs handed to them.

-my other point is that arts student or whoever else is able to recieve a MBA or a masters in any other field, just because you graduate from a business school, doesn't mean that your the only student able to get a MBA and thats where i beleive a arts degree is also valuable. its all about experience anyways, In the business world (which i cannot say anything from my experience), but don't you learn the necessary skills that school doesn't even teach you???

my prospective is that i will be happy to graduate from u of c, learn a trade and go from there. Im sure i will make up the money i spent in university in a short period of time, and the experiences and knowledge that i have obtained from school will be priceless. In our society i believe you need education to give you a future, unless your Ie. rage or.......

anyway you look at it, you have to work hard for your future and whether that be with school or without, you have to choose a path that you will enjoy!

-jonny

[R-Audi]

To argue with 7th Gen Civic,
An MBA is actually more helpful if you didn't get a B.Comm/Mngt to start out with. If you start out with a BSc etc. you would find it more helpful as it is a whole new skill set, rather then just taking the same things over again. It is way more helpful to have a technical degree, and then get your MBA to help polish your business skills. I am not saying it won't help, but it is more helpful to other graduates looking to further their education.

This comes from multiple professors from numerous schools as well. (Not just out of my ass)

[SI-vic]

Rage2 said it best, "school isnt the easy road to riches"
but it may help depending on your field.

If you go to school, make sure its something you enjoy (I learnt this from going to SAIT, by taking something I didnt enjoy and wasting a year).
"Your life is work, if you're happy at work than you're happy in life".

I say, go to school if you have the money and if you dont need to worry about money (ie. if your parents pay for your tuition and/or are well off) and if what you want to be requires a degree or better.

If on a really tight budget, try learning on your own and try getting your foot in the door with an entry level job. There are a lot of promotions done internally only at many businesses.

[Gainsbarre]

Originally posted by maximus
And Gainsbarre, you complain an awful lot about the UofC Econ dpt. Its not nearly as bad as you say. You can't exepect everything to be spoon fed to you like high school. You have to show some initiative.


I'm actually doing very well in university..my GPA is in the 3.7-3.8 range and I've received A grades in my last 5 econ classes (four of them were 400 level courses and the other was the semi-infamous 357 course). I don't want to be spoonfed at all -- I want to be challenged. It's the quality of instruction that I'm (for the most part) upset about. Have you seen the ratings on the infonet? For senior level courses, the econ department has overall ratings of instruction that are consistently way below the average for the faculty of social sciences. And that's only for faculty members...don't get me started on what I think about the graduate students in the department who "teach". It seems that more and more 200 and 300 level econ courses are being taught by the unqualified and incompetent grad students in the department.

[sputnik]

Confessions of a professional dropout.

I dropped out after one year of CompSci in university... started working at an ISP, then a consulting firm, did my own consulting for a bit, moved to Calgary and still work where I did when I moved here. (I am in computer networking/security, you cant learn much about it in school anyways)

Bought a house at 23 (i am now 25) and have a comfortable nest egg on top of that (no need to worry about retirement).

I dont have rich parents (everything I own I worked and saved for). Sure I dont have a nice car yet, but at least when I do have one, it wont be parked in my parents garage and I wont have to live at home until I am 30 because I am making car/student loan payments.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by rage2

I'm thinking of doing the same thing, my wife thinks I'm nuts. I want to go to school to learn something that I dunno but have a lot of interest in. Either mechanical engineering or aeronautical engineering. At which point, I'd have money and security even if it doesn't turn out well.

:werd:

Funny how that works. If I had the chance (i.e. self-sufficient or my wife making good coin) I would probably go back to school and study law.

For me it would be more of a hobby. Dont get me wrong. I like my line of work, I think it would be neat to mix things up a bit and try something else for a while. I cant imagine spending 7 years in school after high school just to realize you hate the job you were trained to do.

[Ben]

Originally posted by sputnik
Confessions of a professional dropout.

I dropped out after one year of CompSci in university... started working at an ISP, then a consulting firm, did my own consulting for a bit, moved to Calgary and still work where I did when I moved here. (I am in computer networking/security, you cant learn much about it in school anyways)

Bought a house at 23 (i am now 25) and have a comfortable nest egg on top of that (no need to worry about retirement).

I dont have rich parents (everything I own I worked and saved for). Sure I dont have a nice car yet, but at least when I do have one, it wont be parked in my parents garage and I wont have to live at home until I am 30 because I am making car/student loan payments.


Good for you man.

I conversed with rage a while back about different IT sectors, and security is a great line to be in, but as you said...cant learn that stuff in school.

The best security people are the self taught ones that you're trying to keep out of your systems.

I wish I was more knowledgeable in that stuff. Tinkering around will eventualy enlighten me I hope.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by Ben

So I take a year off. I network with dozens of people, and land an entry level job at TELUS. (Here's a HS punk getting in with a big corporation example Sam :) ) Why did I get the job? Because I can sell Ice to an eskimo, and am extremely professional. I didn't need UofC to teach me responsibility. My parents taught me the ways of the world all through growing up. I didnt get handed new cars and money and all that growing up. I had a job at 15, and paid my way ever since. I wasn't fortunate to have a family business like a lot of people on here, or a rich realative to die and pay for everything. And thats fine, because I know everything I have is from my hard work.

3 Years later I'm in a new dept. IT dept at that, doing realativly entry level stuff, but hey, it pays 36-40k full time to start. Plus we get involved with employee share programs. Things will only get better, lots and lots of opportunity in high places in this dept. Plus it gives me the freedom to put time into my part time photo work. Best of all, BOTH jobs I enjoy doing. I dont wake up in the morning and groan about going to work.


Keep going! Your hard work WILL pay off, especially with a big company like Telus.

A friend of mine worked his way up from "phone line installer" to VP at Telus with nothing more than hard work and a friendly demeanor.

He quit recently to work for a local charity because he was tired of the "executive lifestyle".

As for the networking/security world. Learn TCP/IP inside and out and learn the Cisco IOS/CatOS. After that, its all about tinkering and checking out the latest and greatest technologies.

[HillBilly]

Originally posted by rage2
How much were u expecting? I mean, if you were expecting a $50k/yr job to start, you've really been brainwashed well!


2.5 years school.

started at $45,000/year

4.5 years later $64,000/year

school payed off for me.:dunno:

[QuasarCav]

Originally posted by Stealth R/T


2.5 years school.

started at $45,000/year

4.5 years later $64,000/year

school payed off for me.:dunno:


No school

Started at 8.50/hour

2 years later 2400/month

Right place, right time.

If I can play my cards right I'll make 40K uneducated in another year.

I would still like to go to school but I find it hard to justify until my progress slows down.

[Ben]

Originally posted by sputnik


Keep going! Your hard work WILL pay off, especially with a big company like Telus.

A friend of mine worked his way up from "phone line installer" to VP at Telus with nothing more than hard work and a friendly demeanor.

He quit recently to work for a local charity because he was tired of the "executive lifestyle".

As for the networking/security world. Learn TCP/IP inside and out and learn the Cisco IOS/CatOS. After that, its all about tinkering and checking out the latest and greatest technologies.

Thanks man, I mean I know that what I make now isn't a lot of money, but it's a good job and allows me the freedom to do my photo stuff as well. I mean I'd really like to work for a Magazine or agency, and my current job allows me the freedom to get time off if I need it.

Over time I'll decide my path, but until then, take advantage of all the opportunities that I can here at my day job. I dont like to have to settle for garbage, I've never worked a job in my life for less than 10 dollars an hour, even at 15years old. I'm not a deadbeat burger flipping kind of guy, not my style, so as such, I know over time things will work themselves out. I dont need to be a Doctor or a Lawyer to feel good about myself. Many people need that peice of paper to feel good about themselves and such, all I care is at the end of the day I'm happy.

In regards to Cisco stuff. After I've been here for a while,TELUS provides post secondary stuff, namely CCNA/CCNE, CCNP training, I figure that would be a worthwhile experience, especially since it's free.

[MaLwa]

guy, if you can do it, education will take you a long way. my dads a lawyer in calgary and he's rolling in the mad cash. Im in first year engineering at the UofA and when im done school i expect to be making around 40K a year.

a buddy of mine is an electrical engineer, been out of school for two years, has a new house in the hamptons and drives an M3.

If education is the right thing for you go for it, you'll be better for it.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by MaLwa
guy, if you can do it, education will take you a long way. my dads a lawyer in calgary and he's rolling in the mad cash. Im in first year engineering at the UofA and when im done school i expect to be making around 40K a year.

a buddy of mine is an electrical engineer, been out of school for two years, has a new house in the hamptons and drives an M3.

If education is the right thing for you go for it, you'll be better for it.

A) READ THE THREAD - rage2 has specifically said that engineering doesnt count because you REQUIRE a degree.

B) $40k seems pretty low for an engineer (I was making pretty close to that out of high school and that was in 97).

C) If an M3 and a house in the hamptons (and a mountain of debt) is your idea of success. Go for it. :dunno:

Clearly there is more to your buddy's story. If you expect to make $40k there is no way that he could be making a similar wage and be able to assume that much debt 2 years out of school.

[rage2]

Originally posted by MaLwa
Im in first year engineering at the UofA and when im done school i expect to be making around 40K a year.
That's it? I'm a drop out and make 6 figures.

Originally posted by Stealth R/T
2.5 years school.

started at $45,000/year

4.5 years later $64,000/year

school payed off for me.:dunno:
That's because your profession requires it suckah! :D

[Ben]

Originally posted by rage2

That's it? I'm a drop out and make 6 figures.
HAHA, I think it's getting to be a pissing match.

Like I said, It's like religion, some people need it to lead a happy life, others do not.

[HillBilly]

Originally posted by rage2
That's because your profession requires it suckah! :D

Most careers do require education. If you get lucky and fall into a good job that pays well and your good at it, more power to you.

For the masses, its a little bit of a gamble to just hope you get a good job with no training.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Stealth R/T
Most careers do require education. If you get lucky and fall into a good job that pays well and your good at it, more power to you.

For the masses, its a little bit of a gamble to just hope you get a good job with no training.
I'd say most careers require training and/or experience. Education is not the only way to get training/experience.

In your case, like engineers, lawyers, mechanics, doctors, there's governing bodys that require you to have education before you can take on that job. In which case, you'd need school.

[bol]

Originally posted by rage2

I'd say most careers require training and/or experience. Education is not the only way to get training/experience.

In your case, like engineers, lawyers, mechanics, doctors, there's governing bodys that require you to have education before you can take on that job. In which case, you'd need school.


rage is pretty much right on the ball here. Certain carerrs require that peice of paper. For the rest of them it is not a "must have."


I started my own business during highschool that flopped but it gave me a lot of experience and knowledge. Enough that when I was done with highschool I was out making $50k+ at 17years old.

I'm 21 now, making more and still in the IT industry. I'm well respected and liked. Not having an education worked for me. I spent the time that would have been wasted getting drunk and being an idiot by learning a real skill. I got in before the bubble burst.

Had I gone the computer science route I would of had a very hard time finding work after I graduated. The market is saturated and unexperienced recent grads are not in demand.

Education isnt for everyone. The real question is..."Would I do it again?" and I don't think I can answer that.

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by bol



rage is pretty much right on the ball here. Certain carerrs require that peice of paper. For the rest of them it is not a "must have."


I started my own business during highschool that flopped but it gave me a lot of experience and knowledge. Enough that when I was done with highschool I was out making $50k+ at 17years old.

I'm 21 now, making more and still in the IT industry. I'm well respected and liked. Not having an education worked for me. I spent the time that would have been wasted getting drunk and being an idiot by learning a real skill. I got in before the bubble burst.

Had I gone the computer science route I would of had a very hard time finding work after I graduated. The market is saturated and unexperienced recent grads are not in demand.

Education isnt for everyone. The real question is..."Would I do it again?" and I don't think I can answer that.

This whole thread has become a pissing match over what is better. However, even those who didn't go to school have some sort of training or otherwise related to your present position. That, my friends, is called education. School as an institution in not necessary, but it provides those who aren't necessarily able to learn outside of the box to gain valuable experience.
`

[JordanLotoski]

Originally posted by QuasarCav



No school

Started at 8.50/hour

2 years later 2400/month

Right place, right time.

If I can play my cards right I'll make 40K uneducated in another year.

I would still like to go to school but I find it hard to justify until my progress slows down.


2400 a month is good to you..man i couldnt live off that in a week..i guess its all upto the person, i went to school and it helps.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Weapon_R
This whole thread has become a pissing match over what is better. However, even those who didn't go to school have some sort of training or otherwise related to your present position. That, my friends, is called education. School as an institution in not necessary, but it provides those who aren't necessarily able to learn outside of the box to gain valuable experience.
It was never a pissing match between what was better. I looked at it from an investment point of view, and in many cases, it's a bad investment. If I had to invest in my child, I'd see he's interested in first before investing in post secondary education.

I also wanted to debunk all the rumors of you need a piece of paper to get ahead in life, or the piece of paper gets you riches. Comments such as :


Originally posted by max_boost
Do most corporations hire kids that come straight out of high school anyway?

Originally posted by RiCE-DaDDy
wtf i expect to be makin a hell of a lot more than 25k when i get outta school

[Shaolin]

Originally posted by MIWYFSHOT



2400 a month is good to you..man i couldnt live off that in a week..i guess its all upto the person, i went to school and it helps.

couldn't live off 2400 a week? holy cripes, what type of monthly expenses do you have that you require more than 2400 a week?

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by MIWYFSHOT



2400 a month is good to you..man i couldnt live off that in a week..i guess its all upto the person, i went to school and it helps.

Better yet, what do you do to make 10k a month :rolleyes:

[celica girl]

I didn’t finish my degree at the U of C. Instead I started working full time for an oil company in 2001… I haven’t even gotten my certificate for that yet! LOL

Anyway… 2002 (At age 22), I bought myself a townhouse in the Hamptons and just last week bought myself a single house. I have no debt at all… my 3 years of university is paid off and so is my car.

So many of my friends told me I was stupid for dropping out of university… they told me that they were going to graduate and get jobs that paid $60,000 to start. All those people that said that to me are working jobs that aren't even related to what they took in school and they are making a lot less than I am.

[JordanLotoski]

Originally posted by Weapon_R


Better yet, what do you do to make 10k a month :rolleyes:

real estate:D

[boi-alien]

Originally posted by Khyron
Plus you learn social skills in a university. There are TONS of people out there who don't know how to interact with a group, or write a report on what you're doing.

there are TONS of people who don't know how to interact with a group that are IN university. Just because you go to university doesn't make you more sociable.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by celica girl

Anyway… 2002 (At age 22), I bought myself a townhouse in the Hamptons and just last week bought myself a single house. I have no debt at all… my 3 years of university is paid off and so is my car.

Isnt a mortgage considered debt?