Your Views on the Submarine Situation...

[nismodrifter]

Can't believe a thread hasn't been posted yet about this story.
Basically (for those who don't know whats going on..) Canada bought a POS submarine from the British...on the way back to Canada a fire started inside the POS sub (it didn't get very far from Britain...)
3 sailors were airlifted from the sub and one of them has now died. The POS is being towed back to Britain by a tugboat...

How long can the Canadian govt keep buying shit like this and expect soldiers/sailors to use these things??

More info about the story:
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2004/10/05/656913-cp.html

[Gonthro]

atleast its only a lease... thinkw e can trade it in for a newer one?

[rockym20]

Its a lease-to-own. And no, there are no newer non-nuclear subs in the British Navy. I also read how another government looked at them (like Portugal or someplace like that) and decided that they were too old, had too many problems, and would be too expensive to refurbish. So, they built their own instead.

[rage2]

Why do we even need submarines? :dunno:

[QuasarCav]

Originally posted by rage2
Why do we even need submarines? :dunno:


:werd:

It is better for our choppy seas but there isn't even a point to have one.

A better question might be: Why don't we call out navy "the coast guard" and be done with it.

[MerfBall]

Originally posted by rage2
Why do we even need submarines? :dunno:

So that out of country fisherman in our waters can't ram our boats anymore.

[pogox]

I dont know....sounds like another conspiracy...:dunno:

[Singel]

We have virtually no use for spending on stupid shit like this. If a situation arose where we needed a sub, USA would have our back, or we could atleast pay them a quarter of what this sub is costing us to come missile Quebec into the ground. Quebec is our biggest threat to national security, havin subs in the st. laurence isn't going to do any better than throwing rocks across the river at the cheese eating surrender monkeys.

Seriously, we don't make enemies, and as long as we keep USA and Britain's back scratched were fine. Any military money should just go into our peace keeping and shit like that, we have no need to build a Navy when our strongest allies already have em good. That money would be better spent supplying submarine sandwiches to our boys keeping the peace overseas, or 7 subs with 6 grams of fat or less to all the fat people in Canada so they stop having heart attacks and draining health care.

[Toms-SC]

Correction: Canada has bought 4 POS shit subs, with and orgainal budget set at $750,000,000. Due to the problems now over $1 Billlion has been spent on them and they are still not ready to serve.

What we should have done is bought another boat or two :)

[B17a]

These were almost as good a buy for Canada as the Sea King helicopters. For those of you who don't know, they were also big time POS's that cost tons of money, one crashed onto a Canadian warship last year, real piece of work there!:thumbsdow

[SkylineAdmirer]

wow, another example of how our goverment just fucking sucks or,, fucks, no wait that doesnt work

[MerfBall]

Originally posted by Singel

Seriously, we don't make enemies, and as long as we keep USA and Britain's back scratched were fine. Any military money should just go into our peace keeping and shit like that, we have no need to build a Navy when our strongest allies already have em good. That money would be better spent supplying submarine sandwiches to our boys keeping the peace overseas, or 7 subs with 6 grams of fat or less to all the fat people in Canada so they stop having heart attacks and draining health care.

Canada still needs its defense. Back in the days of the U.S.S.R, it was a well known fact that if the U.S.S.R were ever to attack they would go through Canada first. This is why 4 Wing Cold Lake is one of the most important bases for air defence for Canada, back then and I believe still now.

It sucks to have such a hated neighboring country. As unlikely as it might be if anyone were to try to mount an offensive against the U.S. one of the places they would come through is Canada.

And although the U.S. may have the technology and armament, it is silly to rely on a neighbouring country for defense.

If DND wants to strengthen our armament they need to make wiser purchases.

[Xtrema]

Bombardiar just lay off 2000 people.

I'm sure they can start to develop a sub for $1B. At least this way, what we pay stay i our country and may keep some of those people employed.

[Singel]

Of course defense is important, but we're better off burning the money in barrells on street corners to warm up the bums than the way we're spending it now.

This is definately a case of where nothing is better than something stupid like these subs. No amount of money is going to save is if all the commie's and terrorists get together and decide to make World War III, and bomb the hell out of North America.

[cman]

my cousin in britain is one of the british rescue ships sent to the sub.

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by rage2
Why do we even need submarines? :dunno:



Originally posted by Singel
We have virtually no use for spending on stupid shit like this. If a situation arose where we needed a sub, USA would have our back, or we could atleast pay them a quarter of what this sub is costing us to come missile Quebec into the ground. Quebec is our biggest threat to national security, havin subs in the st. laurence isn't going to do any better than throwing rocks across the river at the cheese eating surrender monkeys.

Seriously, we don't make enemies, and as long as we keep USA and Britain's back scratched were fine. Any military money should just go into our peace keeping and shit like that, we have no need to build a Navy when our strongest allies already have em good. That money would be better spent supplying submarine sandwiches to our boys keeping the peace overseas, or 7 subs with 6 grams of fat or less to all the fat people in Canada so they stop having heart attacks and draining health care.

The U.S. is NOT obligated to defend us against an attack, nor can we sit back and completely rely on them to defend our nation. Personally, if Canada was attacked, I would hope that we could fend them off and even become an aggressor if need be (cases like Genocide and such, where we don't sit back and idly wait for the U.S. to make its move while we mop up their crap).

As a first world country, one with the absolute best of everything, we NEED a military that is as capable as the rest of society. And that means modernizing its coastal defence. We have water on the North, East, and Southern coasts, and this cannot be left to the United States to defend completely.

Besides, the Soviets are going to attack the U.S. sooner or later, and they will come through Canada. Who is going to weaken them before they meet the fury of the U.S. military ;)

[Maxt]

I agree with all that stated we must defend our country, we have a huge coastline that we must defend, not just to enemies, but to smugglers as well.
Its well known that alot of the smuggling ships that came from China over the last year 10 years, simply used surface evasion techniques to avoid being cut off from landing on our shorline. When they saw a boat approaching, they turned, when the boat turned away, they turned towards Canada again, lot better chance of intercepting such ships before they hit land with a sub, right now the Canadian government cannot put a number on the amount of people that come to our shores on such ships, its huge, and with only 1 aerial patrol every other week, its pretty much undefended right now... Keep in mind once the refugees set foot on this soil, they are here, on our tab for at least a year..
A large part of out patrol area, ices over in the arctic region, ice breakers are very expensive and slow to operate and patrol with, not only that, is sometimes, ice breakers simply cannot break the ice, a sub, simply goes under the ice..
The attitude that if we be nice and friendly to everyone , we will have no threats internationally is stupid and naive..
When we needed to backup our citizenry in situations, our forces are so weak, we could do nothing....Soft diplomacy is a joke, when the Iranians got away with murdering a Canadian citizen, we pulled our embassador, golly gee, I am sure that had a huge impact on their country, they will think twice about screwing with Canada now...:rolleyes:, oh god forbid, not sanctions, our trade with Iran was so huge , now where are we going to get our wicker baskets from?...Get real they are still laughing at us, whats Canada gonna do...Now if we parked a war ship with a couple o tomohawk missles, in the persian gulf within striking distance of Tehran, things could have been a little bit different, oh wait , we don't have war ships with missles, we have sanctions, what was I thinking..Send in LLoyd Axworthy..

[Singel]

Originally posted by Weapon_R

We have water on the North, East, and Southern coasts, and this cannot be left to the United States to defend completely.


I didn't know the united States was an ocean, you learn something every day. If some stupid fucks want to invade us from the north, let em try, they'll freeze their asses off, and probly titanic themselves into an iceberg.

Of course national defense is important, but bying POS subs and helicopters aint the way to do it. Seriously, doing nothing would be better than wasting billions on that crap.

And when was the last time Canada was invaded? Maybe the Americans in the 18th or 19th century or something? Seriously, if we get attacked, we're fucked. No amount of money available to us will save us from that, it's all up to the americans to save our ass...until we find efficient, intelligent ways of improving our military. Buying POS subs, that have killed our own people. Without that sub, we'd be a billion richer, and 3 troops more than we have now.

[Maxt]

The next world war is only going to involve a few major weapons, tons of troops is not the way to fight wars of the future..We are at the point we can now wipe out a country with one weapon, and subs, are capable of launching them..
Yes these subs are waste of money, they should have bought 1 modern sub and 1 frigate, now we have 4 lemons, only 1 of which is usable, buying these p'sos was just the Liberals paying a bit of lip service to their pledge of supporting the armed forces, navies are like building cars, its all or none, not half way..Maxt

[SkylineAdmirer]

I heard we need subs as an obligation for nato patrols or something, anyways, yea we could have bought a few good boats, or 1 good fucking sub!:D, librals suckkk:( i never thought they could get this bad:eek: , i dont know how stupid some1 could be to still vote for them after last time :thumbsdow

[davidI]

There's a story about the subs in the sun today. Funny thing is that the subs aren't capable of moving through the polar waters and they will only be cruising around the atlantic.

Hmm, so nothing will be done for the B.C. fishing waters....and I guess all those asian smugglers are going to have to take the short route if they wanna get in undetected - sux for them. I've gotten so bitter with living in the west and being bent over on a near daily basis and having no say...no wonder us west coast people are getting known for having good pot :D

[Mckenzie]

I thought the only subs our Navy had were stationed in West Edmonton Mall. :dunno:




















Seriously though, I think this situation is an embarassment to the brave men and women who want to serve out country. They risk their lives and careers to serve in our military and they cannot even be confident that they are using equipment that is safe. I find it funny that Australia said no to the subs because they were POS, but our smart liberal government said "sure, why the fuck not?"

Great investment for our mighty armed forces.:rolleyes:

[Z_Fan]

The biggest loser here is Lt. Saunders family. Please keep that in mind. The tragedy isn't getting ripped off, it's that some guy is dead, and he never got to see one of his kids, and the other is too young to ever remember his father. A wife has lost her husband, and will have to raise two children alone, knowing they'll never see or know their father!

These submarines cost $610 million dollars. (For 4). So that's about $152.5 million dollars per unit.

The 'loan' or 'lease to buy' arrangement is interest free for eight years. This is a good deal.

The 'other' $140 million dollars which was considered to be part of what everyone calls the $750 million was not for the submarines. It was for training staff in operational procedure. Canada also knew prior to purchase that these subs would not be able to be utilized in the Arctic with out retrofit. They also expected the cost to exceed 1 billion after retrofit. So the budget has not really gone off here...

Canada does not possess the experience or subbuilding facilities to construct a sub. While Canada does have shipbuilding facilities, Canada has never built a Sub. So obviously when you have people with zero experience, the cost would be tremendous to 'build our own'.

Canadas previous Subs (3) are Oberon class subs which are like 40 years old. Ok, they were bought in 1960's from, guess who, Britain. They are *OLD*. So if you thought the Sea King was a joke, this is just as bad.

The Upholder Subs were actually designed like 25+ years ago. (80's). While the British subs weren't constructed until the late 1980's and finished early 1990's, the Australian Navy actually looked at the Upholder Victorian Class subs in the '80's and decided they weren't capable of taking Australia to the level of advancement they were seeking. So they didn't buy any. And that's over 20 years ago!

Canada did in fact look at purchasing new subs. It was estimated that it would cost between 3 and 5 billion. Too much coin.

These Sub-marines are not for defence. So all the people who are talking about these subs as tools to defend Canada, please give head a firm shake. These subs aren't gonna be protecting us. And, uhm, from what anyhow? Yeah, I'm sure we're gonna have a WW2 style war any second! Man, nowadays Countries are gonna get destroyed from like 3 pieces of key technology. That's it. We don't need hundreds of subs floating around to defend us!!! LOL! Some guy is gonna push a few buttons in a bunker 1000 miles from anywhere, and that's gonna be the signal for the deadliest attack in history. Kaboom!

Canada is surrounded by 3 oceans. Canada has 3 Oberon class subs not capable of being in the Arctic. Canada has 4 Upholder Victorian class subs, also not capable of being in the Arctic (with out retrofit) - and, being that we are surrounded by water, Canada would need in the order of 200+ subs to actually patrol our immense borders. Oh, and before we could defend our great nation with our 7 subs, we'd have to fix the one that just broke, and oh yeah, we'd have to re-commision the 3 Oberon class subs because they are all decommisioned!!!!! Meaning, Canada currently has 3 subs to defend the 2nd largest nation in the world, and though I'm guessing, I'd say we've got the most water around us. Duh. Uhm, and lets see, *ONE* Japanese sub would be able to take out all our subs on any given Sunday. Don't even talk about them being for defending Canada. That's just completely silly speak.

Let's face it. Canada, or should I say Canadian Citizens really would need to pony up if we want to purchase new sub technology. And, then you really have to ask yourself, why the hell would we do that as a Country. We'd need 100's of these things in Military trim, meaning we'd need to build Nuclear Subs - not diesel-electric and it would cost hundreds of billions. Not just a billion.

Bottom line, these subs were purchased for a couple of very simple reasons. One is just so Canada has subs, and therefore we can train individuals on sub operations. The other reason is to be able to better patrol the East coast for ships fishing illegally stealing our resources. That's it.

Oh, and we might occasionally (After a retrofit) take one of our Subs up to the Arctic to get some Arctic water samples for pollution testing so we don't have to beg the Americans to do it for us as we currently do!

The only other thing these news subs might be able to do for us is alert us of the presence of the US and Russian subs floating around our waters and in the Arctic. But more than likely, we'll never be able to detect them, as our 'fleet' isn't advanced enough and is just way too sparse. LOL!

But - despite the tragedy, which you have to try to keep seperate from the concept of why we purchased them - these Subs are a good deal for Canada only in that they keep us in the water...based on what we as a Country are willing to spend. Other than that, what the heck were we thinking?

The real question now is, how much is 1 Canadian Sericeman's life worth??

[fast95pony]

Originally posted by Weapon_R




Besides, the Soviets are going to attack the U.S. sooner or later, and they will come through Canada.



Soviets ???? :dunno:


These Subs aren't much use for patrolling our shores.
One conspiracy theory I read is that that many of the U.S. 's enemy's subs are diesel-electric powered. The U.S. has no diesel subs and needs to train against them. So Canada was encouraged to buy these subs so they could be used in exercises with the U.S. Navy .


Since these subs can't go into the Arctic and will only be in the Atlantic, this theory might be true...

Our PM owns a bigger fleet than our Navy....

Hopefully the sad death of a sailor won't be in vain , and our government starts to give our military better equipment.

[SkylineAdmirer]

Deisel subs=:thumbsdow they were abandoned by every country cause they have low submerge time and constantly have problems. What exact type of subs are these anyway?

[Maxt]

Actually diesel subs are not just old technology, in terms of interception and patrol, they are far more capable than a nuclear sub, they are smaller, they operate silently, they can sit on the ocean bottom for weeks on end, one of the greatest threats to the US and Soviet Nuclear submarine fleets, are diesel electric subs. You can't just shut down a nuclear reactor at the flick of a switch, there are always pumps and control motors running, so they are very detectable because of the noise, read up on logs of past war games practice , the winner is always a diesel electric sub...These would have been a good buy, if they weren't such a total pieces of shit in the beginning..maxt

[A_3]

Originally posted by SkylineAdmirer
Deisel subs=:thumbsdow they were abandoned by every country cause they have low submerge time and constantly have problems. What exact type of subs are these anyway?

Wrong, i've done some pretty extensive research into subs and MOST countries still use diesel electric. Nuculear subs are extremely expensive to build and maintain. Hence why Russia can't sell off any of it's nuclear subs resulting in them rusting down and causing extensive environmental problems (not to mention the fact that they weren't exactly safe for the crew in the first place). Where at the same time many of it's deisel subs have been sold off to Countries considered hostile. Many many countries run diesel electric subs because they can sneak around the giant noisy American and British subs. I am at work right now but I have a book at home with all the current statistics on what country is running what submarine including the class of the ones the Canadians bought. But from memory I would say around 90 percent of countries with submarines are running diesel electrics.

[Chim]

"they shoulda bought a cav" - Cavb0i

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by fast95pony




Soviets ???? :dunno:




Hahaha, and the Nazis, the year is 1945, everything is a conspiracy. :nut: :rofl:

[SkylineAdmirer]

Originally posted by A_3


Wrong, i've done some pretty extensive research into subs and MOST countries still use diesel electric. Nuculear subs are extremely expensive to build and maintain. Hence why Russia can't sell off any of it's nuclear subs resulting in them rusting down and causing extensive environmental problems (not to mention the fact that they weren't exactly safe for the crew in the first place). Where at the same time many of it's deisel subs have been sold off to Countries considered hostile. Many many countries run diesel electric subs because they can sneak around the giant noisy American and British subs. I am at work right now but I have a book at home with all the current statistics on what country is running what submarine including the class of the ones the Canadians bought. But from memory I would say around 90 percent of countries with submarines are running diesel electrics.


sorry should have added, rich countries


Originally posted by Chim
"they shoulda bought a cav" - Cavb0i
:rofl: :rofl: fucking great but needs dome tweaking:
"theyz shouldaz bot a cavz"

[cman]

my cousin called tonight, hammered in a scotish port pub with a bunch of canadian sailors. i guess they arrived today and decided to get the canadians wasted and have good ol' jolly time.
i guess to take their minds off the accident and traggic loss of one of their co-workers for one night.