Iraq stats on Civilian Deaths post US Invasion...

[Toma]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3962969.stm

A study published by the Lancet claims the risk of death by violence for civilians in Iraq is now 58 times higher than before the US-led invasion.


Women and children are reportedly the biggest casualties of air strikes


Dr Les Roberts, who led the study, said: "Making conservative assumptions we think that about 100,000 excess deaths, or more, have happened since the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

"Violence accounted for most of the excess deaths and air strikes from coalition forces accounted for most of the violent deaths."

[Toms-SC]

Interesting read, thanks Toma. I do have a small problem with some of it thoe....such as this line:
'He urges the coalition forces to rethink their strategy to "prevent further unnecessary human casualties".'
While that is a nice idea, why don't they tell that to the guys with bombs strapped to their chests running onto loaded buses because there is an American or two on the bus?
:confused: Suicide bombing is something that strikes me as an odd ball tactic, but I guess it works. :(

[Singel]

Suicide bombing a bus for a couple americans isn't that different from air stiking an area with a couple terrorists and many innocents, the only difference seems to be that they sacrifice their won lives for the cause as well

[shadow]

Thanks Toma for the article.... it is a interesting read and bad news for Iraq... glad Canada never got involved..

[AcuraTl]

Originally posted by Singel
Suicide bombing a bus for a couple americans isn't that different from air stiking an area with a couple terrorists and many innocents, the only difference seems to be that they sacrifice their won lives for the cause as well

could not have said it better myself....

[Khyron]

Blame the terrorists for putting their weapon caches inside churches, or using their women and children as shields, or making a base in the basement of a hospital. They are all cowards so what do you expect? The US to say "Oh your wife is a shield, we won't shoot now"? The Iraqi terrorists are responsible for most of the civilian deaths. (Original link is dead right now)

Plus you can always make up numbers. 100K civilian deaths my ass - maybe total (including sickness and disease) but not even close to those directly killed by coalition forces.

Let's see:


10,363 violent deaths in Baghdad and nearby towns since the war began last year — this includes deaths caused by car bombs, clashes between Iraqis and coalition forces, mortar attacks, revenge killings and robberies.


Iraq Body Count, a private group that bases its figures in part on reports by 40 media outlets, puts the number of civilian deaths since the conflict began at between 11,793 and 13,802.


On the other hand:



...people who suffered through decades of war and a brutal dictatorship under Saddam, whose regime has been accused by human rights groups of killing as many as 300,000 Iraqis it deemed enemies.


were killed by criminals or rivals who used the turmoil of war as a cover for settling scores.

But that's right - the Americans are the bad guys, Saddam was a saint and Iraq was a paradise.

Khyron

[Toms-SC]

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
I believe this is where they are getting their 'facts' from

[sputnik]

I wonder how many of these "civilians" were actually non-official soldiers.

In many third world countries anyone with a gun can be a soldier even if they arent official in the army. Volunteerism is huge when fighting "evil".

[Ben]

Civilian Casualties suck, but it's inevitable. I'm pretty sure if it was the other way aroudn and Iraq was bombing Canada and the US we would see civilian casualties.

It;s a part of that type of war.

Sucks tho.

[legendboy]

I know there are so many sides to this issue but I think that the end justifies the means. If 50 years when Iraq has finally caught on an wholly adopted a democracy things will be great for them.

Once the general consensus agrees that life in a democracy is so much better than it was before, when they start benefiting from it they will be thankful. Until then, we will continue to be bambarded with blown out of porportion facts and opnions that this all shouldn't have happened.

Don't get me wrong, I don't really know if the usa should have ever gone to Iraq in the first place, but it happened. Its in the past. All we can do is look for the light at the end of the tunnel. (and you can't deny that there is one!)

[googe]

There was never a "war" to begin with. Id like to see them bomb a weapons cache that had THEIR mother in it, and write it off as "shit happens". This was all so unnecessary.

http://www.freewayblogger.com/images/ignoring_the_UN_to_bomb_Ira.gif

[Toma]

Yep, completely unecessary. There was no point. Iraq was no danger to anyone, especially the US.

Legendboy... Democracy? When Canada or the US get a true democracy, then we can dictate to other parts of the world that they have to have a democracy cause its better. lol

You forgot that Hitler was elected in a "democracy"??

Means nothing. Just words to make "us" look better then "them" in the eyes of the uneducated populace.

Give me non corrupt socialism anyday. Much better then corrupt capitalism, which is what we have... not democracy.

You know where we live?? A place where the rules are... "you are free to do whatever you want, as long as you are filthy rich. If you are not filthy rich, you do what we tell you to do, and you pay us half your earnings for that service."

Googe.... Nice :thumbsup:

[Toms-SC]

Originally posted by Toma

Give me non corrupt socialism anyday. Much better then corrupt capitalism, which is what we have... not democracy.



Like I said, debating with Toma is like racing his 11 second Mustang, you'll lose!

I do agree with the saying of Toma.

[Toma]

Originally posted by Toms-SC



Like I said, debating with Toma is like racing his 11 second Mustang, you'll lose!

I do agree with the saying of Toma.
errr, 11 second? You mean NINE second mustang ;) 11's was what it ran in street tires :poosie:

[Majestic12]

Somehow I don't think they'd enjoy the wonders of capitalism and democracy as well as we do.

Aren't we morally corrupt? I mean, I can't really see them appreciating freedom of religion, women's equality, selling sex, etc.

I mean, who do the Americans think they are to dictate their way is better? If commies took over Canada and turned us into a communist state, I'm sure we'd be taking exception to that too, and fighting any way we could.

[Toma]

An think about this. The majority of Iraqi civilains payed NO income tax in Iraq. Oil revenue covered public works, education, electricity etc.... etc...

So the US goes in there and imposes a flat tax of 15% last year. Wow. How thrilled the Iraqis must be. Going to lose their oil fields to private heavily foreign firms, and then get to pay Income tax, while THEIR resources are shipped of out of THEIR country.

And if they are REALLY lucky, in exchange for that, they will get a system like the US where the illusion of democracy is projected with elections every 4 years where you get your "choice" of 2 scumbags, instead of just one!!:banghead:

[Khyron]

Yah, the people of Iraq had more freedom under Saddam than Canadians....

In Canada, if you disagree with the government you aren't thrown in jail or executed. Cops don't form up rape squads and go on rampages. We don't have people starving in the streets. Militia don't go around chopping off limbs. If a woman is raped, she doesn't get stoned to death as a reward. Most of us can actually read. Most of us can afford a place to live and food to eat - and still have money to buy things like computers and car parts.

When was the last time you bought something that said "Made in Iraq". Your toaster? Your car? Your hammer? The middle east lives off the very capitalist dollars it claims to hate.

And stop misusing democracy because you know the correct definition. A true democracy and a dictatorship are the same thing (one is tyrany of the majority, the other is tyrany of the minority). They are both evil systems. Which is why there are no democracies in the world. Most Western countries fall closest to being a republic than anything else.

One thing that's puzzling - you claim to want socialism but don't like tax, how does that work? Canada is pretty socialist as far as countries go...

Khyron

[m10-power]

It is interesting to see how few people truely understand the real motives for what happened in Iraqi. N.Korea is a much bigger real threat, but they don't have any resources so not much will happen there, its all 'big business' in the 'democracy' in the USA that are driving things, all policies. It's all a crock of shit, Canada is no better.

Iraqi is going to be a complete mess, a puppet will be installed and oil will leave to 'pay for their freedom'. I don't live there, I will never understand what they need, I highly doubt the American's have a clue as to what to do. I believe Saddam was a terror, but if that is all you've known at least it's stable...there will be many many years of violence to come, sucks to be an 'average' civilain in Iraqi.

[Toma]

Originally posted by Khyron

And stop misusing democracy because you know the correct definition. A true democracy and a dictatorship are the same thing (one is tyrany of the majority, the other is tyrany of the minority).
Khyron
Christ oh mighty. I dont even read your posts anymore cause you are a fucking idiot. If I wanted the defintion of "democracy" out of some first year poli sci book, I would read one.

Of course that ancient "first year" definition is not the way 99% of the world use the word...

Why on earth would anyone value "tyrany" of any form :rolleyes:

Grow a brain, go finish grade 5, and learn to think for yourself. YOur ability to twist things and facts to suite your agenda ranks right up there with my 4 year old nieces'..

[Khyron]

Twisting facts?! You're the one who pulls shit off conspiracy sites and makes outrageous claims just for the sake of thinking you're somehow more enlightened about life than everyone else. And that the western world is an evil empire, while the middle east is some sort of utopia that we should strive to be like. Or that terrorists are somehow noble in their cause executing civilians?

And for a capitalism-hater, your shop seems to be doing well...

As for the definition - you were the one that intentionally used the reference to a dictatorship, again trying sadly to seem smarter than you are:


Democracy? When Canada or the US get a true democracy, then we can dictate to other parts of the world that they have to have a democracy cause its better. lol

But keep up the insults - it really gets your point across. :thumbsup:

And how about you refute the argument for once? Everytime I counter-post to your drivel, you either throw a few sad insults and leave, or start a new thread.

Khyron

[Ben]

I have to agree.

Leave the insults at the door. Nothing better than making a strong argument, and then taking any credibility and tossing it out the window by slagging the opponant with a bunch of schoolyard insults.

That said, please continue the actual debate utilizing fact and proper positioning.

[Singel]

As far as Iraqi elections go, they shouldn't even bother and just let Bush appoint whoever he wants, cuz that guy is going to win anyway. How in the fuck are they going to conduct fair elections in Iraq, when our elections over here are often fucked up...(Florida, this Aftergood bitch - true democracy, im sure the "truth" will come out a few weeks after the provincial election, she is a provincial torrie in municipal gov't anyway...but that's a whole other topic, which im surprised hasn't been created here yet)

Iraqi elections: Only measure a very small, stupid portion of Iraqi's, because u would have to be freaking stupid to try and run an obstacle course while being shot at to vote. I guess anybody will be better than Saddam, but the same can be said for bush.

And as far as these conspiracy theory website stats, they are likely slightly exageratted, but a lot closer than what you'll see on tv/newspapers..."but CNN said it, it's gotta be true" Just like the smart bomb stats were in the 1st gulf war. Don't believe everything you hear/read...remember that Bush's gov't is better at altering documents than Dan Rather's sources.

[googe]

Originally posted by Ben

Leave the insults at the door. Nothing better than making a strong argument, and then taking any credibility and tossing it out the window by slagging the opponant with a bunch of schoolyard insults.


Do you KNOW who youre talking to? ;)

[shadow]

If people think that U.S. went in for the good of the Iraqi people.... then why aren't they in North Korea... or more importantly Sudan where the worst genicide is currently happening..

[Toms-SC]

Originally posted by shadow
If people think that U.S. went in for the good of the Iraqi people.... then why aren't they in North Korea... or more importantly Sudan where the worst genicide is currently happening..

Why ain't Canada there?

[Khyron]

Originally posted by Toms-SC


Why ain't Canada there?

We tried, but our sub sank.

Khyron

[Singel]

Originally posted by Toms-SC


Why ain't Canada there?

1) we aren't powerful enough
2) we don't go around trying to impose our will and assimilate foreign countries
3) We're busy mopping up messes and helping the people in war torn places, we don't wanna go in and kill innocent people to save them

[M_Power]

Originally posted by Khyron


We tried, but our sub sank.

Khyron


:rofl: :rofl: best quote ever.
Toma, I can hardly think for one second that the site you posted is accurate in its countings. In life you can only beleive half of what you see and none of wut u hear, but in war everything is bs.