Wrecking 17th Ave

[Fivewayradio]

I don't know if anyone gives a fuck or not. But they're planning on knocking down the east half of the 800 block of 17th ave. That's the buildings containing Mercury, Fiasco, etc. Apparently there are two developments proposed: The first is for a Shoppers Drug Mart and I should know what the second is later today.

While I'm not neccessarily opposed to development on 17th, I think development there should be done responsibly and with the best interests of the community in mind. Right now Calgary only develops with the best interests of business in mind.

From what I understand the Shopper's around the corner on 8th St isn't big enough, so you can expect the new building to be bigger and to take up an enormous footprint on 17th ave. I don't think that's responsible development. What makes 17th Ave and similar places interesting is that they have lots of small, independant, shops, restaurants and bars. Having a range of types of businesses in a dense area draws more people to the area. Not only does it draw more people but it also engages them in different ways. Shoppers doesn't engage people at all. You go there sick, knowing what you want, and you leave and go home and take your prescription. You don't sit on a bench outside laughing with your friends while you eat your gelato. You don't have a drink and ogle hotties while sitting on the patio. You don't sit there and read the paper over a coffee in the morning. In other words, when you're at Shoppers, you're in no way contributing to the life and vibrancy of the community. So if they build a shoppers there, for the rest of our lifetimes we'll have a half a block of 17th avenue that will never be interesting or vibrant or give anything to the community whatsoever, except maybe the odd infectious disease.

If this kind of development continues, 17th ave will soon be a pedestrian carbon copy of Westhills or Crowfoot. The most interesting part of this is that my alderman doesn't seem to think she can do anything to stop it. I've been told that the area is zoned commercial and as such the landowner can build whatever they like, as long as it's commercial. Can you fucking believe that? They can building ANYTHING THEY WANT. They could build a 50 story shoppers drug mart that covered the entire block and only sold one kind of toilet paper if they wanted. Not only is that not responsible, it's fucking insane. People with money could destroy 17th ave within a matter of years. They could turn it into a shitty place that no one cares about or ever goes to...like 8th ave after 6 pm.

Just so you don't start thinking that this is normal, here's the principles by which the Vancouver urban Design and Development Planning Centre operate:



The Urban Design and Development Planning Centre evaluates all development and policy initiatives against six broad principles which are generally contained in Council-approved policies and guidelines. Each principle is considered in assessing proposal performance while acknowledging that each site possesses unique qualities and possibilities. Our involvement seeks to appropriately and equitably apply these principles in the application of Vancouver's discretionary based Zoning Schedules, Official Development Plans and Design Guidelines:

A Sense of Place
A Contextual Response
A High Quality Public Realm
Neighbourly Development
Recognizing our History
Architectural Distinction


Yes, that's right. Vancouver has an urban design and development planning centre. Before any development is approved it goes through a committee who sees if the development plan adheres to the principals above. I'm sure most calgarians don't understand how those principles affect them on a daily basis, but even if they don't, the people in charge of planning and development should.

Anyway, this shit is only important if you think a trip to Westhills is a good time or if you come away from two hours in chinook with a smile on your face, or if the punks in Tomkins park scare you. If you don't think that way, write to your alderman. There's a feedback form HERE (http://www.calgary.ca) . I realize this is a car site, but I'm hoping that even people who really like their cars can see how stupid this city can be sometimes

[kiwi]

What? They're taking down Fiasco? NOOOO!!!

[ZorroAMG]

Well considering that the structure of mercury fiasco etc is near condemned it was only a matter of time before a a redev took place. What kind of mom and pop shop is going to be able to afford lease rates in a BRAND NEW building in the heart of 17th Ave when used space goes for 50-90$/sq ft? Only big name corporate shops will be interested for the most part..it sucks a bit but such is the "life" of a growing city.

[Fivewayradio]

It's just that attitude that keeps perpetuating this Calgarian culture of mediocrity. You're not a developer are you?

They can build something better than what they have planned. Just because they planned it doesn't mean the city shouldn't be able to send them back to the drawing board because their proposal sucks.

I just went and saw the plans for the new development. They're replacing about 20 businesses with 4 or 5. Now when you walk down that street you'll have a blank wall of shoppers drug mart for half a block. Of course they decorated it to make it look like there's windows there. Maybe they'll put advertising in them like the do at the London Drugs around the corner.

Again, Tonko, the developer, and Kasian Kennedy, the architects can come up with something better. Their proposal is a dud and will negatively impact 17th ave.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by Fivewayradio
It's just that attitude that keeps perpetuating this Calgarian culture of mediocrity. You're not a developer are you?


So instead we should keep a building that is on the verge of being condemed standing for the sake of "its charm"?

Also, that building had poor tenants anyways. The Mercury is its only longstanding tenant, all of the others have been in there for less than a year and for years the bagel place was completely empty and it looked horrible.

Face it. The building is falling apart and the property value is way to high to be able to have someone build something to house a bunch of low rent boutiques.

Move to Winnipeg if you want a bunch of delapidated buildings in your core.

[ninjak84]

Originally posted by Fivewayradio
It's just that attitude that keeps perpetuating this Calgarian culture of mediocrity. You're not a developer are you?

Sounds like a realist to me :dunno:
Ok, yeah it sucks. I'd rather see another patio bar and pizza shop too, but it doesn't work that way.

[Fivewayradio]

I'm not saying they shouldn't build a new building. I'm saying they shouldn't get rid of 20 business that add life to the street to replace it with 4 that don't.

"but it doesn't work that way" What the hell is that? Black people weren't allowed to vote either but it doesn't make it right. And people eventually changed the way it worked.

I'm trying to get people to think about ways to make Calgary better. Telling me to move or to suck it up isn't going to make Calgary a more interesting place to live.

[Melinda]

Originally posted by Fivewayradio
I'm not saying they shouldn't build a new building. I'm saying they shouldn't get rid of 20 business that add life to the street to replace it with 4 that don't.

"but it doesn't work that way" What the hell is that? Black people weren't allowed to vote either but it doesn't make it right. And people eventually changed the way it worked.

I'm trying to get people to think about ways to make Calgary better. Telling me to move or to suck it up isn't going to make Calgary a more interesting place to live.
I actually agree with you. I went to school on 17th ave and it was so much fun taking my breaks to walk around and see the stores you wouldnt find at your local mall...there is a shoppers, a super drugmart and a safeway all on 4th ave which is only about 4 blocks from where they plan on putting in the new one...isn't that good enough? :dunno:

[sputnik]

Originally posted by Fivewayradio
What the hell is that? Black people weren't allowed to vote either but it doesn't make it right.

Why are all of the damn newbies pulling out the racism straw man in every thread these days?

They are not "getting rid of the businesses". They are getting rid of a building that is beyond repair and the land is going up for sale. The problem is that in this scenario you have 2 choices.

a) Building gets torn down and you have a big chain move in.

b) Building gets torn down and you have a vacant lot for years. (Like the old Esso on 17th Ave SW and 8th St SW).

The problem with these small businesses (Fiasco, Trend etc) is when the new retro building is built the rent will go up beyond the means of the smaller businesses and you will have an empty building with capacity of only small independant shops. There is already enough vacant retail space on 17th that needs occupying. However due to the trendiness of 17th ave even the crappy buildings are too expensive. One of my favorite bars (Kaos) was closed because the landlord doubled the rent on them after they were there for over 10 years. Kaos ended up moving downtown into the old Quincy's location. I really wonder how long Yardstick will be around.

17th ave and all of its trendiness will allow for high rent and only accomodate to the tenants that can afford it. Too bad. I will miss the little boutiques, but it was only a matter of time.

[Melinda]

Originally posted by sputnik
b) Building gets torn down and you have a vacant lot for years. (Like the old Esso on 17th Ave SW and 8th St SW).

Sorry to stray a tiny bit off topic, but dont former gas station lots HAVE TO stay vacant for x amount of years before they aresafe to put something else there? Unless of course another gas station is going in there...

[Fivewayradio]

They are not "getting rid of the businesses". They are getting rid of a building that is beyond repair and the land is going up for sale. The problem is that in this scenario you have 2 choices.

a) Building gets torn down and you have a big chain move in.

b) Building gets torn down and you have a vacant lot for years. (Like the old Esso on 17th Ave SW and 8th St SW).

c) Building gets torn down and a new building gets built that will house the same number and quality of businesses as were there before. This building is mixed use and contains commercial, retail and residential. The mixed use element means that the ground floor retailers aren't financing the entire project. The building also creates population growth and brings immediate and permanent business for the retail and commercial spaces. Not only that but you can charge a fucking fortune for the residential space, because it's totally sought after. Those units can subsidize the retail.

There are other options. Of course we're generally not taught that in Calgary. Here there's bad and worse and you'd better just learn to live with it because that's the way it is...and if you suck it up long enough bad will seem like it's good. Ralph Klein taught me that one.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by Melinda

Sorry to stray a tiny bit off topic, but dont former gas station lots HAVE TO stay vacant for x amount of years before they aresafe to put something else there? Unless of course another gas station is going in there...

I asked a civil engineer friend of mine and he said that that was back in the days when they used to leave the tanks in the ground. Now they remove the tanks.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by Fivewayradio


c) Building gets torn down and a new building gets built that will house the same number and quality of businesses as were there before. This building is mixed use and contains commercial, retail and residential. The mixed use element means that the ground floor retailers aren't financing the entire project. The building also creates population growth and brings immediate and permanent business for the retail and commercial spaces. Not only that but you can charge a fucking fortune for the residential space, because it's totally sought after. Those units can subsidize the retail.

There are other options. Of course we're generally not taught that in Calgary. Here there's bad and worse and you'd better just learn to live with it because that's the way it is...and if you suck it up long enough bad will seem like it's good. Ralph Klein taught me that one.

Nice utopian idea. However the land and the building costs would be so high that the landlord would require high leases in order to get a decent ROI on the building. Potentially leaving the units vacant. The apartments on the upper floors would be also vacant due to the excessive noise on 17th and the rent would be high due to the newness of the building. The high rent would detract the party animals and the noise would detract the professional community (who would normally buy a condo anyways). If the residential units were condos and not apartments they would be too expensive and too noisy for anyone to take seriously.

The Liberals/NDP wouldnt help this situation anyways because they would just want to irresposibly spend the surplus, increase business taxes and increase the tax base of the weathly that live in Mount Royal and end up killing the local economy, the real estate market and leave 17th Ave a ghosttown with pretty and empty buildings down the entire stretch.

Perhaps I am just a realist which most idealists see as "negative".

[ZorroAMG]

5 way radio, yes my family is a developer, WTF does that have to do with the fact that the lease rates of any new building AGAIN would be out of reach for many mom and pop small business......If you don't understand what I am talking about or don't want to grasp the fact that money is the overall deciding factor in real estate transactions all over the world, move to Nanton or something and open your own general store.

Sure some cool shops would be a great idea but when they close down every few months or couple of years cause they can't make their lease payments, who loses? Not you, hardly the business owner, its usually the building owner that has to incur many costs for upkeep of vacant space or land, property taxes, realestate marketing and fees etc etc etc. They lose. As far as any real estate developer is concerned, anchor tenants like London drugs etc are the ones that pay for the majority of the space to allow normal lease rates for other space within a building. Please understand what you are ranting about BEFORE you rant. Thanks

As far as residential, who wants to pay huge cash to live on 17th? No one with brains. Plus to rezone for density and mixed use is a lot more difficult, they won't be able to get the height needed to make the residential development worthwhile (as in not having to charge 400$/ft for crappy noisy locations).

In the perfect world that you think is possible to be created, there would be no currency.

[sync]

why not just stop going to 17th ave if you don't like where things are going?

inglehood is the new 17th anyway.

[bol]

Originally posted by kiwi
What? They're taking down Fiasco? NOOOO!!!


I don't care too much about that... Fiasco's gelato sucks. Compare it with any *REAL* gelato from some of the places in and around Vancouver and you'll see why.

Fiasco uses hydroginated oils which makes it nasty. *GOOD* places use completely real fruit and no oil.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by bol



I don't care too much about that... Fiasco's gelato sucks. Compare it with any *REAL* gelato from some of the places in and around Vancouver and you'll see why.

Fiasco uses hydroginated oils which makes it nasty. *GOOD* places use completely real fruit and no oil.

:werd:

Nucci's Gelati on Corydon in Winnipeg is the best I have ever had.

[t-im]

mondo gelato..mmm..in van

[tsi_neal]

this all reminds me of a while back when shoppers opened on kesington Rd and 14th. Telstar Drugs was directly across the street and had been there forever. MANY people still used telstar, but alas they shut their doors because the shopers took too much business away. Sad but a fact of life. Kesington is still dominated by "the little guys" and will always be. The same with 17th.

I guess im saying that yea it sucks but its certainly not the end of the community, so dude get over it.

[Seanith]

So are they closing the other shoppers off 8th street or whatever it is there?

err nm, i think i'm confused with london drugs. :(

[DefektiveVibe]

what about all those damn casinos?!?!

[88CRX]

Originally posted by tsi_neal
this all reminds me of a while back when shoppers opened on kesington Rd and 14th. Telstar Drugs was directly across the street and had been there forever. MANY people still used telstar, but alas they shut their doors because the shopers took too much business away. Sad but a fact of life. Kesington is still dominated by "the little guys" and will always be. The same with 17th.

I guess im saying that yea it sucks but its certainly not the end of the community, so dude get over it.

"Sad but a fact of life" pretty much sums it up :thumbsup:

oh well

[Toma]

Originally posted by Fivewayradio
It's just that attitude that keeps perpetuating this Calgarian culture of mediocrity. You're not a developer are you?


17th is "Calgary Culture".... hahahahahahahahahaaha

RIIIIIGHT.

17th is "Wanna pretend I am rich " yuppie ville. If it were upto me, they would bulldoze the whole street down and build something usefull.... like a drag strip;) .... Instead if a rat trap for the pretend affluent.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by tsi_neal
this all reminds me of a while back when shoppers opened on kesington Rd and 14th. Telstar Drugs was directly across the street and had been there forever. MANY people still used telstar, but alas they shut their doors because the shopers took too much business away. Sad but a fact of life. Kesington is still dominated by "the little guys" and will always be. The same with 17th.


You contradicted yourself in one post. How can the little guys "dominate" if they shut down as soon as someone bigger moves in?

[tsi_neal]

Originally posted by sputnik


You contradicted yourself in one post. How can the little guys "dominate" if they shut down as soon as someone bigger moves in?


Ok ill clairfy, by dominate i mean that probably 90% of shops are independant stores, exceptions i can think of are shoppers, safeway, pita pit, subway, starbucks, higher ground, and second cup (and thats counting the coffee shops that are franchise, thus individually owned). Then there are probably 100 or more independant shops that dominate the area. If more major chains start moving in (other than being suprised) ill change my statement, but for now at least independant stores dominate the area, most are quite sucessful and are not likely to go anywhere or be bought out by corporations.