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davidI
12-06-2004, 11:08 PM
I don't know much about them! Sounds like a few people on these forums have some experience or know some stuff about them and it's always nice to learn. :)

Edit: I'm just gonna ask we keep this on topic too! I haven't seen any malicious posts yet but I know this can be a controversial topic and I don't need to see 1000 useless posts saying drugs are wrong because that's what your CALM 20 teacher told you. They can be bad, they can be good, this thread isn't to debate if they're right or wrong - it's just to learn about them and hear peoples real world experience. :thumbsup:

Wildcat
12-06-2004, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by davidI
I've heard good things about M1T except that it has nasty sides. From what I've heard a lot of the 'legal' shit is actually stronger than the illegal stuff....but the gov't is smart enough to know this as well as bodybuilders so they're all being outlawed!

well i did a little reading on M1T for you, because ive honestly never heard of it. its a highly effective oral androgen. However, it is a totally different prosteroid both in affect and activity than Testosterone.

Heres a quick cut and paste:

When a hormone is alkylated (like adding a methyl group to the 17th ring) it totally changes the pharma-kinetics of the compound as well.

Have you noticed that most 1-Testosterone users report better sex-drive, more energy and a positive outlook upon life with their musculature gains? Yet those using M-1-Test report lethargy, no sex-drive and really bad moods to go along with high blood pressure and head-aches, oh and increased muscle mass. Personally, though effective, I dislike M-1-Test for health concerns.

This is all due to the methylated alteration that alters a chemical's effect upon androgen receptors and physiology in general. Most of this is due to secondary activity triggered by the compound such as adrenalgenic and neuro-net over-stimulation, hepatic alterations and general burn-out.

Though M-1-Test employed at a daily dosage of 10-20mg for 2-4 weeks seldom results in liver concerns (if it is a very high quality product free of other raw material metabolites and toxins), it certainly does have several negative side effects easily avoid by opting for 1-Testosterone Cypionate delivered through any viable means.


so in short (IMO):
there are better products available with the same/better results and less side effects!

Wildcat
12-06-2004, 11:56 PM
this product isnt legal in canada anyways (and it wont be legal much longer anywhere else by the sounds of it), so its not a matter of comparing legal to illegal substances. The side effects are some of the weirdest/ worst ive heard of. And since its oral you have to take Hepatotoxicity (liver damage) into account aswell.

not recommended by me IMO.

Edit: The general concencuss from everyone ive talked to says its twice as potent as test-1 and so are the side effects, and since its methylated its liver toxic too, and one should just keep to the "real deal".

hockeybronx
12-06-2004, 11:59 PM
I've tried to do quite a bit of research on this issue. Although I wont speak for everybody else, I would never personally come near an anabolic steroid.

Come to think of it I saw a buddy of mine at Kilkenny tonight. He has changed quite a bit since the last time I saw him, he has been on 'juice' as he put it for about a year now. He is really intense and edgy, hasn't gotten that much bigger though.

Wildcat
12-07-2004, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by hockeybronx
Come to think of it I saw a buddy of mine at Kilkenny tonight. He has changed quite a bit since the last time I saw him, he has been on 'juice' as he put it for about a year now. He is really intense and edgy, hasn't gotten that much bigger though.

by the sounds of it he took roids thinking getting big will come automatically and he probly still eats like shit, and since he was at kilkenny i assume he drinks too.

nothings free, theres no get "huge and do nothing" program.

hockeybronx
12-07-2004, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by Wildcat


by the sounds of it he took roids thinking getting big will come automatically and he probly still eats like shit, and since he was at kilkenny i assume he drinks too.

nothings free, theres no get "huge and do nothing" program.

Actually you are quite right there. I was watching the news when they were talking about Barry Bonds, and they talked about how healthy and smart lifestyles can really minimize the side-effects of steroids.

However I still maintain that the gains are not worth it to me, I really believe I am achieving what I want by just living a healthy lifestyle.

Wildcat
12-07-2004, 12:48 AM
i wasent talking about side effects, i was talking about gains. if you know what your doing you can still remain totally healthy and take roids. the gains are 75% diet/lifestyle.

davidI
12-07-2004, 01:31 AM
From what I know, steroids can be pefectly healthy in the hands of the right user. The problem is that most people who wanna juice are dumb, lazy and don't have the training background behind it. It sounds like Wildcat knows what he's doing and has done is research so I have no problem with guys like him!! It's the 17 year olds that way 150 and eat like shit that make steroids sound so dangerous! I was like most people up until this year and bought all the media hype about roids being the devil but since then I've learned a lot on BB forums and it sounds like they can be quite useful in the hands of the right individual.

I guess my only fear is that their purpose is to alter your bodies chemistry...I know you're supposed to take post cycle estrogen inhibitors and what not but it still seems like hair loss, acne, lethargy, joint pain, depression etc. are possible sides even if done 100% correctly.


Thanks for the info Wildcat. I was never sure why people said they were so lethargic, bad moods etc. compared to 1-Test users who almost seemed to be the opposite. I understood how alkylated compounds worked but never realized that it reacted differently in the body. I always thought that it was basically 'one step away' from becoming testosterone and it basically became the same as an 'illegal' steroid after being processed by the body.

Wildcat, what have you had experience with or what do other people you know use? Just curious on your personal stats and what benefits/sides you've had from any cycles you've run. People always ask me about juicin and stuff and I always tell them that it's not something I want to do so I don't know anything about it but I'd like to be able to give them informed advice! I'm not against people using in any way, I just want to stay natural until I reach my absolute pinnacle (which I don't think I ever will if I keep drinkin like a fish!) If I ever do get big enough to contemplate competing I definately might look into it as a possibility but not at this stage in my training 'career' (I use that term loosely!)

Wildcat
12-07-2004, 05:22 PM
im not going to comment on any of my personal experiances ill keep that to pms but i will generalize and try to put together a laymans guide to roids.

First, there is no perfect steroid, they all effect the body in different ways, give different results and have different side effects. Steroids are added hormones, hormones are the way in which your body communicates with itself in order to operate. Adding a hormone will always result in the production or inhibition of another hormone.

Some terminology:
Cycle: the time in which you are currently using steroids, no one can continually use steroids without severly damaging their bodies. so it is "cycled" on and off giving your body time to reach homeostasis, most people consider a cycle to include PCT.
PCT: "post cycle therapy", the time during and immediatley after a cycle in which an estrogen inhibitor is used (eg Novalex, Clomid) or another benifiting hormone (HCG). The purpose of the PCT is to return the body to a natural level of testosterone.
Stacking: a "stack" is a combination of steroids in a cycle, one steroid cant do everything, so it is common (almost mandatory) that a user will stack.

Heres a list of the most commonly used steroids:

Nandrolone Decanoate (Deca Durabolin)
Nandrolone Phenylpropionate
Boldenone Undecylate (Equipoise)
Methenolone Enanthate (Primobolan)
Trenbolone (Finaject)
Trenbolone Acetate
Injectable Methandienone (Dianabol)
Testosterone-Mix (Sustanon / Omnadren)
Testosterone Enanthate (Testoviron / Primotestan)
Testosterone Cypionate (Testex)
Oxymetholone (Anadrol / Anapolan)
Fluoxymesterone (Halotestin)
Injectable Stanozolol (Winstrol)
Formebolone
Drostanolone Propionate (Masteron)
Oral Methandienone (Dianabol)
Mesterolone (Proviron)
Ethylestrenole
Noretadrolone (Nilevar)
Oxandrolone (Anavar)
Oral Stanozolol (Winstrol)
Testosterone Propionate (Viromone)
Testosterone Undecanoate (Andriol)
Clenbuterol
Ephedrine Hydrochloride

Im totally generalizing and im tired of typing so just ask me anything you want. :D

badseed
12-07-2004, 05:31 PM
Shiite man you know your roids!!!! As for my personal opinion on juice, I could never be proud of something that wasn't natural. I guess people use it for differnet reasons and I can acknowledge that, but no matter what, once your a juicer your labeled for life.
I have way more respect for someone who can accomplish their goals naturally. I think once people find out someone is takin roids they say to themselves "Yeah but he's a juice monkey anyone can be that big with roids" even though this may not be the case. There's just such a negative stigma associated with taking roids I've never actaully considered doin it. Just my 2 cents.

Wildcat
12-07-2004, 05:40 PM
to get unaturally big it takes unatural means, thats really what it boils down to.

alot of guys are very secretive about roids because they dont want to be labled that way.

badseed
12-07-2004, 05:48 PM
Very true, I wouldn't want anyone knowing if I where to juice.

Melinda
12-07-2004, 05:55 PM
I ran into a friend of mine from high school about a year ago. He was a hardcore athlete in our school back in the day. He told me that after we graduated, his parents pressured him hardcore to do well in university sports and he totally cracked. Steriods became his answer to getting better and stronger. When I saw him, he looked awful, he had been caught using by his coach, kicked off the team and he was then trying to stop but stopping using them had some crappy side effects just like using them.

He's done with them now but he's still not back to where he was before he even started using, he figures he set himself back permanently from where he should have been in his althletic career if he had never used steriods in the first place.

Scarry stuff, aside from the major attitude and in some cases, paranoia you get from using, you have other serious stuff like potential heart problems (which is the big one) but other stuff can go wrong with your organs as well...doesn't seem like the right way to go about things :dunno:

1badPT
12-07-2004, 06:18 PM
If you go the prohormone route, you have a legal way to get similar results, but you also deal with the same side effects.

Steroids are injected as a complete molecule ready for your body to use. Prohormones on the other hand target a "useless" hormone in your body (DHEA) and convert it either to estrogen or an androgen.

I'm sure you know the upsides already so here are the downsides:

Brief downsides:

-you are playing with the very chemicals that make you a man or woman
-your own body's hormone production is reactive - by artificially increasing the amount of these hormones in your body, your body's own production of these hormones stops, and if it stops for long enough, your body will lose the ability to produce these hormones later when you eventually do stop (cycling helps avoid this, but its a hell of a price to pay if you don't stop in time or if your body is over-sensitive).
-if you increase the androgens, you'll get male pattern baldness, irritability and "puny balls"
-if you increase estrogens, you get the bitch tits and you retain water more

I did a fair bit of research on PH's and I've decided its just not worth it. If you want to give it a shot, I highly recommend this article:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catproh.htm

Its a lot to read, but at least you can make an informed decision on it. I certainly wouldn't try them knowing what I know.

Boosted_TL
12-07-2004, 09:48 PM
Keep in mind that all PH's will be banned within the first or second week of January.....

DUBBED
12-07-2004, 10:19 PM
I was considering juice for a while until I worked at Cowboys for a few months. Another doorman and his girlfriend were telling me about his manhood problem. He was saying the he literally has no nuts, and can't even get it up anymore.

Apparently another bouncer had a heart attack, and isn't even 30 yet.

The thing that bothered me is that there were other doormen that were just as big and were completely natural, they even worked out together and pushed the same amount of weight.

Doesn't seem worth the risk to me.

davidI
12-07-2004, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by DUBBED
I was considering juice for a while until I worked at Cowboys for a few months. Another doorman and his girlfriend were telling me about his manhood problem. He was saying the he literally has no nuts, and can't even get it up anymore.

Apparently another bouncer had a heart attack, and isn't even 30 yet.

The thing that bothered me is that there were other doormen that were just as big and were completely natural, they even worked out together and pushed the same amount of weight.

Doesn't seem worth the risk to me.

There are right ways to do things and wrong ways to do things. These guys were likely doing things wrong...

you can't compare a natural guy to a guy who juices without taking into account what they're taking, their training habits, their diets and all of the other shit in their life!!!

I'm never gonna drink cause I know people that died from drinking and it's not worth the risk. I'm never gonna eat another potato chip cause people who eat potato chips get heart disease so it's not worth the risk. You can't make generalizations with stuff like that.... :rolleyes:

Singel
12-07-2004, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by davidI

I'm never gonna drink cause I know people that died from drinking and it's not worth the risk. I'm never gonna eat another potato chip cause people who eat potato chips get heart disease so it's not worth the risk. You can't make generalizations with stuff like that.... :rolleyes:

Maybe 1% of drinkers have died. Maybe 10% of potatoe chips have heart disease. But probly more like 75-90% of juicers have problems...

davidI
12-08-2004, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by Singel

Maybe 1% of drinkers have died. Maybe 10% of potatoe chips have heart disease. But probly more like 75-90% of juicers have problems...

Where'd you pull those percentages out of!?! Besides, if it was 75-90% that have problems....they shouldn't be using it because they're too dumb or immature. Too many young people with no knowledge or experience just think it's an easy fix and they end up losing hair and blame the juice....blame their own stupidity. I watched a great interview this morning on Headline Sports with a guy at University of Wisconsin I think who was saying how anabolics shouldn't be banned in the olympics etc.

Wildcat
12-08-2004, 12:56 AM
ya, theres a big difference between steroid users and abusers. but i dont think steroids have a place in professional sport other than bodybuilding because its a necessary evil. There is natural bb aswell but the physique isnt even comparable to an IFBB pro.

badseed
12-08-2004, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by davidI


Where'd you pull those percentages out of!?! Besides, if it was 75-90% that have problems....they shouldn't be using it because they're too dumb or immature. Too many young people with no knowledge or experience just think it's an easy fix and they end up losing hair and blame the juice....blame their own stupidity. I watched a great interview this morning on Headline Sports with a guy at University of Wisconsin I think who was saying how anabolics shouldn't be banned in the olympics etc.

What you do is your own business. What people are tryin to say is the side effects don't seem worth it. There are MANY side effects and disadvantages and only 1 main advantage. Maybe someone with superior knowledge of roids can get away with it with little negative side effects, but is it worth the risk?????

Look at the big picture; Many negative consequences for 1 main postive outcome. This is the opinion many people are trying to voice. In general many young teens are turning to roids for perfomance increases and getting harmed by it. Not because their immature and dumb but because their ignorant & misinformed from threads like these that show certain proof of wayz to get around harmful side effects. I don't think it's such a good idea to go around saying roids can be done correctly to a car forumn with a majority of young males who seem to all want to beef up. Just my opinion man.

Pacman
12-08-2004, 10:58 AM
Dude,

Go to the medical library at the UofC and read all the publications on anabolic steroids. There have been a few long term studies that show the efficacy of some of the compouds, and they also talk about some of the side effects and other interactions they may have with other drugs.

That is the only place you will get legitimate info on the positive and negative side effects from steroids.

I wouldn't pay much attention to what people on a public chat forum have to say.......especially when they get their info from other internet websites.....or they just assume they know what they are talking about because they know some guy, who knows a guy that he met in the McDonalds parking lot, that has a buddy who got really big by taking some "wicked shit".

Also, consider where you are going to be getting the stuff from?? Most of the drugs that have been listed on this site are no longer produced in (or available for sale in) North America, and are very difficult to get.

Almost everything you find these days is either from India, Eastern Europe or is the vetrinarian equivilant of the human product.
If you are lucky, you can get hooked up with a guy that brings in legitimate stuff that is produced by the big pharma companies overseas....most of the crap out there is generic shit made in sketchy "labs".....you never know if you are getting the correct molecule or just product that has low doses of testosterone in it.

davidI
12-08-2004, 01:00 PM
Badseed, I agree completely with you. Like I've said before, it's not something I want to do but I know there are people out there who know what they're doing. I'm not trying to say that people should go out and do them, because you're right, most people are ignorant and misinformed. Unfortunately, most of the posts in this thread are misinformed because their argument is 'some guy I know got the side effects.' Did that guy buy them from some dude who made them in his bath tub? Did that guy dose correctly, cycle and run PCT? I guess it's good to use scare tactics to keep the misinformed away from them but isn't that what the media has done all along to make people think how they think?

Just so people know...the 'legal' steroids that have been available for the last few years are often much more harmful to the body than the real shit. I'm happy the gov'ts have stepped into do something about it because too many yuppies were thinking it was safe because it was legal and not doing any research.

Pacman, I think you are 100% correct in everything you wrote. I don't think I'd ever put any shit in my body without sitting at the medical library for 4 days reading study after study!

You bring up another great point about the safety of juice though....and that is most people don't know what they're getting! Even people that know everything can still get fake stuff where all of their knowledge means shit because they're getting small doses of bad substances to make you see an increase but not necessarily in a healthy way! This is one of the beefs I have with them making these things illegal...would we hear about all of these people having severe sides and reactions if everything they got was regulated and made in a medical facility? I'm not sure about what other people think....but I'd think that sticking something made for a dog in my arm wouldn't be the best idea - and the truth is that you never really know what you've got. This is one of the biggest reasons I've never contemplated doing it....where would you get something that you were 100% sure it wasn't fake? I don't think you can...

davidI
12-08-2004, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Wildcat
ya, theres a big difference between steroid users and abusers. but i dont think steroids have a place in professional sport other than bodybuilding because its a necessary evil. There is natural bb aswell but the physique isnt even comparable to an IFBB pro.

Yea, I can't see it actually becoming a part of sport anytime soon. His point was solely that athletes are resorting to these 'underground' drugs that can't be tested for but the flaw is that since they are 'underground' drugs they haven't been run through the tests that the well known steroids have. His worry is that a lot of these things are quite dangerous and since they have to be kept so secretive...no one will know. His other reasoning was that although people call it cheating to use juice...athletes cheat in so many other ways. He mentioned an american swimmer in the 70's who had a new suit designed that the swimmer felt gave a huge competitive advantage. She along with the americans kept it secret until the games. Another guy apparently showed up with a fiberglass pole vault pole when everyone else still had bamboo sticks. I kinda got his point that trying to prevent some forms of cheating up allowing others isn't great for the sport.

Wildcat, do you know anything about natural competitions? I'm definately too small these days to even think about them but I'd like to look into it and maybe make it a goal for the future! Any links or personal knowledge you have on teh subject?

Wildcat
12-08-2004, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by davidI
Wildcat, do you know anything about natural competitions? I'm definately too small these days to even think about them but I'd like to look into it and maybe make it a goal for the future! Any links or personal knowledge you have on teh subject?

natural competitions are amateur events so anyone can go in them, if you workout at golds usually they have posters up about upcoming events, or maybe just ask some of the trainers, its good to get out and watch and to be involved, theyre usually pretty fun. :)

DUBBED
12-08-2004, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by davidI
You can't make generalizations with stuff like that.... :rolleyes:


Sure I can, IMO taking roids is pretty fucking ignorant. Just about everyone I know who's used it has lost nut size, nevermind the fact that they might never be able to have kids. The fact that you have a CHANCE of not having kids is enough reason for me, nevermind the fact that the closet thing to sex you'll have for a long time is intimate rubbing. The fact is you'll never really know what the effects are on your body until you start using it.

David, are you willing to run the risk of being impotent for the rest of your life? I'm not saying you will be but there is a good chance you will be if you use roids.

Either way, you're a sissy bitch if you take steroids. If it means that much to you to have big muscles then fine, having fun destroying your body.

BTW assuming just because people can't get a hard-on doesn't mean they used juice improperly. :rolleyes:

davidI
12-08-2004, 03:58 PM
^ I'm not even going to bother responding to that directly! I've repeated several times that I'm not planning on doing roids so it's not like I have a huge reason to defend them...I just think it's ignorant for people to blame the juice and not themselves. Your knowledge on the subject is so incredibly low that there is nothing I can say to dispel what you heard on the news or from a bouncer friend of yours...if you really want to know something about it, go read some scientific studies and try to convince me of their dangers from a scientific viewpoint. Like Wildcat said, there are users and abusers...just like with any other chemical substance out there. People use alcohol and people abuse alcohol. People use steroids and people abuse steroids. Unfortunately, to be a juicer, you have to make a serious committment to knowing a lot, having blood work done and not straying from their plans. Most people don't bother doing enough research and end up blaming the steroids for their own misuse/abuse. I haven't made that serious time committment and am not even at the stage in training where I'd have to worry about such things but I know that most people taking them, shouldn't be.

Wildcat
12-08-2004, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by DUBBED



Sure I can, IMO taking roids is pretty fucking ignorant. Just about everyone I know who's used it has lost nut size, nevermind the fact that they might never be able to have kids. The fact that you have a CHANCE of not having kids is enough reason for me, nevermind the fact that the closet thing to sex you'll have for a long time is intimate rubbing. The fact is you'll never really know what the effects are on your body until you start using it.

David, are you willing to run the risk of being impotent for the rest of your life? I'm not saying you will be but there is a good chance you will be if you use roids.

Either way, you're a sissy bitch if you take steroids. If it means that much to you to have big muscles then fine, having fun destroying your body.

BTW assuming just because people can't get a hard-on doesn't mean they used juice improperly. :rolleyes:

what your saying is pretty fucking ignorant. sorry if your friends are fuckups and cant have any kids maybe they shouldve known what they were getting themselves into before ruining their lives. since when is it socially acceptable to slander someone taking steriods? you go up to your bouncer friends and tell them theyre sissy bitches and see how far you get. while your at it walk up to the next fat person you see eating a whopper at BK and tell them their life is worthless.

please understand that too much of ANYTHING is bad for you. If taken in moderation you can be totally healthy, it just takes more effort, patience and dedication, three things most people today seem to be lacking.

DUBBED
12-08-2004, 04:52 PM
Okay well I would like to see these articles that say that if done properly you are 100% garunteed to be free of any side effects.



EDIT: Okay, maybe impotency was a bad example of a side effect. All I know is that every warning label I've read on Bodybuilding.com has not come across positively at all. It just seems to me that some side effects are certainly not worth the gain.

Are all the hair growth etc. etc. things mentioned above reversable with the estrogen cycle?

Explain to me how you would properly do a cycle of steroids, what side effects you would expect, etc.

snugs
12-08-2004, 05:12 PM
Unless you plan to compete, and have basically maxed out your physique naturally (which takes years of hard training and diet) there really isn't a point to using gear... unless you're just impatient.

Realistically speaking most younger guys (under 25) already have enough natural test in their system to make good gains no matter what (I'm not saying more won't hurt, just that it isn't really necessary). Instead of worrying about gear, start to research diet, you'll be amazed at what a difference it will make if you just eat properly. :)

DUBBED
12-08-2004, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Wildcat
you go up to your bouncer friends and tell them theyre sissy bitches and see how far you get.

My point was why take the easy way out, if you want something bad enough earn it. I've heard of guys putting on 10 lbs of muscle in a month using steroids, in the end I'll have more respect for the guy who takes 3 months to do the same.

It's all perspective I guess.

bspot
12-08-2004, 05:17 PM
You can do coke or meth in moderation and not see the sever side effects, but #1 you are playing with something dangerous, and #2 you are still f*cking with your body.

Why wouldn't you want to be proud of the fact that you accomplished your gains without hormone intervention?

There is a reason Roids are illegal, and its not a government conspiracy to keep people from getting big. Its because they hurt you, whether you are "smart" about it and they hurt you a little, or you get carried away and they hurt you alot.

Its your body, so put whatever you want in it, but I will always see people that do roids as the faggots who spend all day staring at themselves in the mirror and flexing and making sure they go tanning and buy some tight shirts before they go out to the bar.

ecstasy_civic
12-08-2004, 05:20 PM
if you want to get some REAL information

check out these 2 sites, they have tons of good info, there is some BS on there, but the majority of people do know how to do it right.

www.steroidology.com
www.elitefitness.com

snugs
12-08-2004, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by bspot
There is a reason Roids are illegal, and its not a government conspiracy to keep people from getting big. Its because they hurt you, whether you are "smart" about it and they hurt you a little, or you get carried away and they hurt you alot.

LOL, not quite. It wasn't until 1988 that sale of steroids for non-medical usage was banned in the US, and possession wasn't even criminalised until 1990 (can you say ben johnson). :tongue:

bspot
12-08-2004, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by snugs


LOL, not quite. It wasn't until 1988 that sale of steroids for non-medical usage was banned in the US, and possession wasn't even criminalised until 1990 (can you say ben johnson). :tongue:

So the US goverment developed and tested LSD in the 60's.

Fallidimyde (sp?) was legal, and caused a shit load of birth defects, they realized this later and made it illegal.

So whats your point?

snugs
12-08-2004, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by bspot


So the US goverment developed and tested LSD in the 60's.

Fallidimyde (sp?) was legal, and caused a shit load of birth defects, they realized this later and made it illegal.

So whats your point?

LOL, are you serious?

This is a tough one, so tell you what, you explain how hormones that your body produces naturally, and that can be perscribed by your doctor for a wide variety of medical treatments are in the same category as LSD and thalidomide, and I'll try my darndest to come up with some sort of tenuous link between the knee jerk reaction to Ben Johnson testing positive for steroids after he won the gold in 1988 and the subsequent criminalization of steroid possession in the US. :thumbsup:

bspot
12-08-2004, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by snugs


LOL, are you serious?

This is a tough one, so tell you what, you explain how hormones that your body produces naturally, and that can be perscribed by your doctor for a wide variety of medical treatments are in the same category as LSD and thalidomide, and I'll try my darndest to come up with some sort of tenuous link between the knee jerk reaction to Ben Johnson testing positive for steroids after he won the gold in 1988 and the subsequent criminalization of steroid possession in the US. :thumbsup:

Lots of narcotics are also stuff that your body produces naturally. :rolleyes:

Hell, your body makes shit, so why don't you sit down tonight and eat a big plate of your own shit?

Wildcat
12-08-2004, 06:17 PM
while were on the subject lets make cigerettes and fast food illegal too :rolleyes: , oohhh thats right, the government makes too much money off those companies so a few dead people doesnt matter.

these things harm your body with no benefits just like coke and meth, yet theyre still legal. take coke, meth, cigerettes and fast food im moderation, you wont die. take any of these things all the time, ya you will die.

so why hate on steroids? cause theyre illegal? please... at least they have benefits.

bspot
12-08-2004, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by Wildcat
. take coke, meth, cigerettes and fast food im moderation, you wont die. take any of these things all the time, ya you will die.

If you would look up first you would notice I already said you could do coke and meth here and there in moderation and live. Will you live as long? are you still fucking your body up a bit?

One thing I agree fully with is that cigarette's should be illegal.

Narcotics have benefiets too. PCP can help you in a fight, coke can help you in sports, meth can help you in bed (at first.. until it wrecks your ability to have sex)

So really, we are talking about the same thing here, its just you deny it after reading all of your www.steroidsareok.com and www.drugsarentbad.com. There are many sites saying smoking doesn't cause cancer. If that helps you sleep at night, then good for you.

Talk to your doctor, he'll tell you they are fucking retarded. But I'm sure you'd argue with someone who has a medicine degree too because they are influenced by the goverment all because of Ben Jonson
:rolleyes:

davidI
12-08-2004, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by bspot

Talk to your doctor, he'll tell you they are fucking retarded. But I'm sure you'd argue with someone who has a medicine degree too because they are influenced by the goverment all because of Ben Jonson


Talk to a Dr. who is also a bodybuilder and you might be surprised what you hear. Doctors aren't impervious to the same media hype that you are! Do you think they learn about steroids and the athlete in med school? Doubt it. Because steroids are illegal, it is difficult to find studies that are done on athletes using them! Who's going to give you a grant to learn about something that can't be done in real life anyways? Most of the information known is through inference from studies based on health.

What I can't believe is that I used to be as ignorant as all of you and just say steroids are bad cause people say so. It's funny how your opinion might change after you learn something about it instead of listening to what the government tells you.

davidI
12-08-2004, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by bspot


If you would look up first you would notice I already said you could do coke and meth here and there in moderation and live. Will you live as long? are you still fucking your body up a bit?



Why are you fucking up your body a bit? I'm not too familiar with the two chemicals in question as far as what they'd do in moderation but I know that every day you ingest thousands of chemicals....are you fucking up your body a bit? Or are those chemicals ok cause businesses put them in their products? Is a little bit of coke as bad for you as a little bit of aspartame? Or is it just the fact that people abuse coke and take large quantities that makes it bad for them? Didn't Coca-Cola used to put cocaine in its pop? Did they ever lose millions of dollars cause people who drank coke died?

HOLY FUCK, I JUST INGESTED MALIC ACID...oh, fewf, there's just a little bit in my Jolly Rancher...but, but, I'm still fucking up my body a bit right? Probably not...

You just buy into all the hype in the world. Just a sheep...

DUBBED
12-08-2004, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by davidI
Talk to a Dr. who is also a bodybuilder and you might be surprised what you hear.


We're have you discussed with a Dr. who is a bodybuilder? Just curious.

bspot
12-08-2004, 08:17 PM
DavidI: Lets say for a second steroids aren't bad for you. Why would the governemnt make them illegal? Even if they were a little bad.. why wouldn't they just tax the hell out of them like cigs and laugh all the way to the bank?

Comparing a Jolly Rancher to steroids is like comparing weed with herione. Sure doing coke once a month isn't as bad for you, but you are still making your body less responsive to certain chemicals, which is why people need more and more to get high.

I'm sure if you did steriods once a year you probably wouldn't notice any after effects, that argument is rediculous though because people dont just use these things once a year. It was even mentioned how you need to let your body acheive homeostasis again. Why do you need to do this? Because your body chemistry is fucked up by the roids. Fucked up body chemistry is bad.

I would REALLY like to hear a doctor/body builder's opinion on this. If you can find one that has written about it that would be awesome.

Wildcat
12-08-2004, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by bspot
Talk to your doctor, he'll tell you they are fucking retarded. But I'm sure you'd argue with someone who has a medicine degree too because they are influenced by the goverment all because of Ben Jonson
:rolleyes:

i have a very strong interpersonal relationship with my doctor, when im about to start a cycle i go for a full check up to make sure im in perfect health. I show my doctor my program, he makes recommendations on anything from doses, the stack and my PCT. He recommends time off after the cycle and when i should see him again. Usually he writes a prescription for the PCT and any lingering side effects.

Of course my doctor doesnt agree with it, but its not up to him whether i do it or not so he makes sure i do it properly and in the best way possible to ensure my overal health.

DUBBED
12-08-2004, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by Wildcat
Of course my doctor doesnt agree with it,


What does this tell you right here? I'm done arguing, I just want to make a point.

On the other hand I can respect the fact that you're being mature about it and using it properly. At least you're doing everything in your power to make sure you're going about it th right way. :thumbsup:

davidI
12-08-2004, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by DUBBED

We're have you discussed with a Dr. who is a bodybuilder? Just curious.

First, it's spelt where.

Second, if you did any research into the subject you would see a lot of books, studies and literature from Drs who also train. Although I don't take advice from lifting magazines since they're largely pressured into what they say by their advertisers, if you look at their authors, they're doctors who obviously lift a hell of a lot more than you!

davidI
12-08-2004, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by bspot
DavidI: Lets say for a second steroids aren't bad for you. Why would the governemnt make them illegal? Even if they were a little bad.. why wouldn't they just tax the hell out of them like cigs and laugh all the way to the bank?

Comparing a Jolly Rancher to steroids is like comparing weed with herione. Sure doing coke once a month isn't as bad for you, but you are still making your body less responsive to certain chemicals, which is why people need more and more to get high.

I'm sure if you did steriods once a year you probably wouldn't notice any after effects, that argument is rediculous though because people dont just use these things once a year. It was even mentioned how you need to let your body acheive homeostasis again. Why do you need to do this? Because your body chemistry is fucked up by the roids. Fucked up body chemistry is bad.

I would REALLY like to hear a doctor/body builder's opinion on this. If you can find one that has written about it that would be awesome.

Public pressure! Why is transfat being made illegal? Have you never had transfat? Have you felt deathly ill over eating one potato chip before? Why is weed illegal but smoking and alcohol are not? Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's safe and vice-versa! I pointed out the fact earlier that the 'legal' steroids are actually much more dangerous than the 'illegal' ones...and thus I support the government in making them illegal since too many people, such as yourself, feel that because they're legal they're safe no matter what.

You also just said that you probably wouldn't notice any after effects if you cycled correctly...
I'm confused! I thought that was my point this entire time? Then you said that because people do it too often (abuse it) they're bad. It sounds like we're in agreement but you're still arguing for some reason? I stated all along that they can be bad for you if done incorrectly...I don't get what you're trying to tell me here!?

You're saying that fucked up body chemistry is bad....do you think I just fucked up my body chemistry by injesting folic acid? Sure I did...but guess what, the body does equalize itself and I'm not dying. Gr. 12 chemistry tells you that drinking a glass of orange juice would kill you if the body wasn't able to achieve equilibrium! The body is able to deal with chemicals....if I drank a glass of folic acid every day for a week I'd probably have some pretty nasty side-effects...I'd probably be dead. But that would be abusing it right?

I've gotten some great PM's from a few guys who know what they're talking about. You guys are just idiots who would rather argue over stuff you have no idea about than do research to learn. Unfortunately, there are too many immature/ignorant people on this forum to have a worthwhile discussion so this thread might as well be closed. I don't understood why bspot and dubbed even posted in this thread when it's something they obviously know nothing about. :dunno:

Oh yea, and if you both don't believe that there are doctors out there who write books on these things...just try googling it. The fact that you don't know such books exist is the exact reason I'm not going to bother arguing either of you anymore.

Thanks to the guys who contributed to this thread in a knowledgeable manner. :thumbsup: wildcat, pacman, badseed, snugs, ecstacy_civic and others...

It's too bad people who know nothing decided to start a debate without even bothering to do research first. :rolleyes:

:closed:

DUBBED
12-08-2004, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by davidI
I don't know much about them! Sounds like a few people on these forums have some experience or know some stuff about them and it's always nice to learn. :)


Funny how this was your first post.


Anyhow I read up on Bodybuilding.com and found some pretty useful stuff about properly cycling steroids etc. I'm not here to argue I'm just expressing my opinion, obviously I have a pretty strong view of this. If you're going to use hormones, steroids, properly and minimize the risks than all the power to you. It just seems like so much stress on your body, from what I've read.

But hey I'm just an amatuer don't listen to me.

Dick Starbuck
12-08-2004, 09:48 PM
Your lucky that your doctor realizes that if he weren't to help you in those areas that he would be risking your health. Not that AAS aren't potential a risk, its just he has a chance to minimize them.

Everyone keeps refering to AAS as illegal. In Canada they are LEGAL to possess, but buying and selling is illegal.

davidI
12-08-2004, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by DUBBED



Funny how this was your first post.


Anyhow I read up on Bodybuilding.com and found some pretty useful stuff about properly cycling steroids etc. I'm not here to argue I'm just expressing my opinion, obviously I have a pretty strong view of this. If you're going to use hormones, steroids, properly and minimize the risks than all the power to you. It just seems like so much stress on your body, from what I've read.

But hey I'm just an amatuer don't listen to me.

I have to reply to that. I do know a lot about steroids and their use, but none of the specifics relating to certain drugs, length of cycle, PCT, stacks etc. because I never got that far into wanting to use them. I did enough research to realize that they can be used correctly if you're at the proper point in training but since I haven't reached that point I didn't begin to research hundreds of various drugs. This whole thread started because I was wondering what wildcats experience was. It's awesome if you read up and form opinions, and it would be even better if you would cite some studies when claiming that it can't be done correctly etc. It sounds like after you did a little research you realized that they're not as bad as your bouncer friend made it out to be if they're done right and even if it's still not right for you, hopefully you can admit that it is fine for many others.

DUBBED
12-08-2004, 10:48 PM
One good one I found.

http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/mclane20.htm

Here's another that explains how to cycle properly.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/jon13.htm

I'll admit after reading that second one it does sound like you can do it properly and minimize risk, I guess it depends on what your goals are. I think what I was trying to say got taken out of context and that's my own fault. As forr citing studies that it can't be done correctly I havn't found one because there is a correct way of doing it, although I have yet to find an article that claims you can eliminate the risks by doing it properly.

davidI
12-08-2004, 11:18 PM
^
Cool. I guess this thread was beneficial to some learning some stuff. :)

bspot
12-09-2004, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by davidI


Public pressure! Why is transfat being made illegal? Have you never had transfat? Have you felt deathly ill over eating one potato chip before? Why is weed illegal but smoking and alcohol are not? Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's safe and vice-versa! I pointed out the fact earlier that the 'legal' steroids are actually much more dangerous than the 'illegal' ones...and thus I support the government in making them illegal since too many people, such as yourself, feel that because they're legal they're safe no matter what. [/i]

I never said all things legal are healthy, I did say all things illegal are unhealthy, and I challenge you to give me an example of something besides roids that dispells this.



Originally posted by davidI

You also just said that you probably wouldn't notice any after effects if you cycled correctly...
I'm confused! I thought that was my point this entire time? Then you said that because people do it too often (abuse it) they're bad. It sounds like we're in agreement but you're still arguing for some reason? I stated all along that they can be bad for you if done incorrectly...I don't get what you're trying to tell me here!?

Just because you don't notice after affects, or they are minimal doesn't mean you are doing dammage. Lets say you work in a night club, your lungs are being dammaged among many other things but you don't notice it. Doesn't mean your not hurting yourself.


Originally posted by davidI

You're saying that fucked up body chemistry is bad....do you think I just fucked up my body chemistry by injesting folic acid? Sure I did...but guess what, the body does equalize itself and I'm not dying. Gr. 12 chemistry tells you that drinking a glass of orange juice would kill you if the body wasn't able to achieve equilibrium! The body is able to deal with chemicals....if I drank a glass of folic acid every day for a week I'd probably have some pretty nasty side-effects...I'd probably be dead. But that would be abusing it right?

Your comparisons are pretty weak. Lets not compare Vitamin C to Crack. Ever heard of people who have shitty deits getting diabetes? Sometimes your body just can't get itself back into equalibrium because it has been forced to do it too much. Sure you could intake your folic acid every day, just like you could have a smoke every day. Maybe nothing will happen, maybe you will get cancer and die.



Originally posted by davidI

I've gotten some great PM's from a few guys who know what they're talking about. You guys are just idiots who would rather argue over stuff you have no idea about than do research to learn. Unfortunately, there are too many immature/ignorant people on this forum to have a worthwhile discussion so this thread might as well be closed. I don't understood why bspot and dubbed even posted in this thread when it's something they obviously know nothing about. :dunno:


Sounds like someone who can't respect anyone elses opinions to me. I respect wildcat for having the balls to tell his doctor, but notice how his doctor wasn't happy about it?

Whats your education davidI? Any med school? Or did you go to school on google? :rolleyes:

davidI
12-09-2004, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by bspot

Whats your education davidI? Any med school? Or did you go to school on google? :rolleyes:

I said I'm not arguing with you anymore since you obviously have no knowledge on the issue and are just arguing for the sake of arguing. I'll respond to this question though, I'm in university, have written a paper on 'legal' pH's for a class just because the topic was open and I wanted to do research on them and yes, I have a couple of friends who are trying to get into med school that share my views. I hope you're not trying to suggest that a person needs to be in medicine to know anything about the human body because if you ask med school students about it, they'll tell you that they don't learn anything about steroids and the athlete.

bspot
12-09-2004, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by davidI


I said I'm not arguing with you anymore since you obviously have no knowledge on the issue and are just arguing for the sake of arguing. I'll respond to this question though, I'm in university, have written a paper on 'legal' pH's for a class just because the topic was open and I wanted to do research on them and yes, I have a couple of friends who are trying to get into med school that share my views. I hope you're not trying to suggest that a person needs to be in medicine to know anything about the human body because if you ask med school students about it, they'll tell you that they don't learn anything about steroids and the athlete.

Ok, you refuted my comment, and in retrospect my last line was childish. The rest were all valid points which you have still failed to address.

davidI
12-09-2004, 07:02 PM
Fine, I was going to just give up on arguing but since that seems to make you think you were right I guess I'll have to make one last post in response to you.


Originally posted by bspot
I never said all things legal are healthy, I did say all things illegal are unhealthy, and I challenge you to give me an example of something besides roids that dispells this.

peyote, hemp seed, ephedra to name a few. I don't disagree with ephedra being controlled since all these fatties were taking it thinking they'd get skinny all of a sudden without any knowledge...but I don't think it should be illegal. I could use ephedra without too many concerns. These substances can be abused...but so can caffeine, alcohol, tobacco, vitamins, potato chips, chocolate (If you eat 100kg of chocolate apparently you can get high)...



Just because you don't notice after affects, or they are minimal doesn't mean you are doing dammage. Lets say you work in a night club, your lungs are being dammaged among many other things but you don't notice it. Doesn't mean your not hurting yourself.

I don't agree with smoking because I don't see ANY benefits from it. It's ok for a person to smoke but I don't think they should be able to do it in ANY public place. If wildcat could magically stick some juice in me for standing near him then I wouldn't be defending AAS. If I smoked a few cigs in my lifetime do you think they're going to have a detrimental effect on me? Doubtful..if I smoke 25 a day then I can see there being a problem. There's use and there is abuse.



Your comparisons are pretty weak. Lets not compare Vitamin C to Crack. Ever heard of people who have shitty deits getting diabetes? Sometimes your body just can't get itself back into equalibrium because it has been forced to do it too much. Sure you could intake your folic acid every day, just like you could have a smoke every day. Maybe nothing will happen, maybe you will get cancer and die.

I don't get your point here...?
Are you saying we should ban food since some people abuse it and get diabetes? I realize that steroids are abused...but often it's not on purpose!!! I heard that 9/10 steroids on the market are fake...so 9/10 people are subjected to huge risk that they wouldn't have if it was legal. I just think it's funny because a lot of the guys looking to use juice live a lot healthier lifestyles than the guys who sit around saying it's wrong.
No need to respond because this is the last time I'm answering you! You can think what you want but until you have done some research on the topic and presented me with medical evidence to back up your thoughts...I can't see my views changing since the research I've done is what made me think the way I think.

Tyler883
12-18-2004, 12:32 AM
My body already has a natural pharmacy that affords me a great deal of muscle, right?I wouldn't know where to guess in percentage of body weight, but I bet is fairly significant.

Plus, I could probably gain an additional 15-30 pounds of muscle by training,eating, and resting properly. So I personally don't see why an unaccomplished amateur wannabe bodybuilder like myself would want to get involved in steriods.

Arnie once said "if you aren't in the gym to build muscle then what are you doing there?" And, I can apreciate what he means, but ultimately I'm not interested getting bigger just so I can get bigger. My life exists outside of the gym, too.

I'm already getting a wealth of strength, and well being with my workouts. Sure I like to dream of having an awesome body, but I think it is better for me to use the dream as a motivator, not something that gets me caught up in steroid use.

this may be overly simplistic, but if I make great gains this year on steriods, what do I do next year, increase my doseage? Sorry, I'm not enough of a die hard to want to get caught up in steriods

v8killah
02-13-2005, 09:37 PM
When are you going to start? if you wanna do them do them i think you have allthe info u need now and u seem like u wanna so go.. do it.

my friend just started ill tell u what happens

Wildcat
02-14-2005, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by v8killah
When are you going to start? if you wanna do them do them i think you have allthe info u need now and u seem like u wanna so go.. do it.

my friend just started ill tell u what happens

any idea what your friend will be taking?

r7
02-14-2005, 01:52 AM
i love tren!

Wildcat
02-14-2005, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by r7
i love tren!

err... thanks for sharing. :rolleyes:

r7
02-14-2005, 03:01 PM
hahaha

but anyhow.. yeah getting a roid sensitive doc is great, or a sports medicine doc... or whatver.

You go to a gerneral prac. or something, they frown upon you and give you lectures. Just tell them to shut the fuck up, I do

I'm trying to get a name of a doc. in edmonton that I can use.

Pacman
02-14-2005, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by r7


I'm trying to get a name of a doc. in edmonton that I can use.

Use them for what??

All steroids require a "triplicate script", so one copy goes to you, one stays with the doctor, and the third goes to the Alberta College of Physicians.

The College reviews each and every script that comes to them.

davidI
02-14-2005, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Pacman


Use them for what??

All steroids require a "triplicate script", so one copy goes to you, one stays with the doctor, and the third goes to the Alberta College of Physicians.

The College reviews each and every script that comes to them.

I don't think he means to get drugs. Just to have tests done to ensure his levels are within healthy ranges.

r7
02-16-2005, 01:08 AM
Oh sorry, never made that clear but david has the right idea. I wouldn't try to get aas from a doc! lol

hussein
02-22-2005, 06:47 PM
Hey, Wildcat, I was just wondering in your list why you included Ephedrine HCl in it.

Isn't that what we buy in stores and are taking? Its a steriod? ...

I read through most of these posts and didn't see any mention of that.

Thanks.

Wildcat
02-22-2005, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by hussein
Hey, Wildcat, I was just wondering in your list why you included Ephedrine HCl in it.

Isn't that what we buy in stores and are taking? Its a steriod? ...

I read through most of these posts and didn't see any mention of that.

Thanks.

no its not a steroid, i actually never noticed it in the list, i dont know why its there :dunno: common performance enhancer maybe? :dunno: