Red light question...

[Maxt]

I was working in a few places this week, that have red light camera's nearby, everytime they went off they catch your eye, and I saw a few things that I wonder if anyone else has noticed..
I am not the worlds biggest fan to start with of this kind of *cough* enforcement..
But..
Here's what I saw..
The flash only goes off when a vehicle passes through a zone after the light in the direction which the camera is facing goes red, and seems to be only active till the lights for the other directions go green...
At 2 different red light intersections, I saw people blow the red light while the other direction was green, no flash...Both drivers on cells by the way..Same intersection, car went through on the yellow/red change, other lights still red, and the camera's flashed...
So seems to me, the camera's are ticketing people, who are the least likely of the red light runners to get into an accident, but doesn't ticket people who randomly blow through a red when the other directions are green.. So where is the safety and dissuasion in that? From what I observed, in order for someone who is ticketed by a red light camera, to actually have an accident, by hitting another car in the intersection, they would have to hit someone running a red light from a perpendicular direction, as the camera is only active when really, all lights are red... Public safety increase.. from my point of view, umm none, revenue generation, tons, police report that this program costs more money to operate and implement than it wil ever recover, total BS, it cost 3.3 million to implement and was partially covered by funding from other levels of government, how much it will generate, in edmonton, their red light cameras ticket on average 80 cars per week per camera, so do the math here, feel free to correct me, I suck at math..
(carsperweek)(weeksperyear)(ticketamount)
80*52*287=1,193,920.00 per camera/year
With 36 active cameras= 42,981,120.00$ year
Nice budget padder, thats not taking into account multinova...traffic safety indeed....
So in the end , the people who pay these fines, never would have caused an accident anyway, unless they were hit by someone that ran a red, that wouldn't have been caught by the camera anyway, in effect the danger of these ticketed people hitting other people is and can already be removed by a delay between light phases, which for safety is already built into the lights, its generally a 2 second count from one red to the next green..
I dunno , opinions?...Maxt



http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/BU/engineering_services/emaps/red_light_camera_locations_2003.pdf

[FiveFreshFish]

Originally posted by Maxt
So seems to me, the camera's are ticketing people, who are the least likely of the red light runners to get into an accident, but doesn't ticket people who randomly blow through a red when the other directions are green.. So where is the safety and dissuasion in that?
The cameras are supposed to deter people who try to make the light just before the other direction turns green. There is a big risk when an oncoming car tries to turn left when others are attempting to beat the red by accelerating. A lot of accidents happen in this situation so I disagree with you on this point.

The cameras were not intended for (or programmed for) catching people who run a "stale" red light, but how hard can it be to configure the camera stay active throughout the entire red light cycle? If the cameras were set up like this, even accidents caused by late red light runners can be recorded.





BTW, the red light camera link posted is from last year but is the most current one published. There's a new camera I just noticed for eastbound traffic on Country Hills Blvd at 14 St NW.

[Maxt]

The cameras are supposed to deter people who try to make the light just before the other direction turns green. There is a big risk when an oncoming car tries to turn left when others are attempting to beat the red by accelerating. A lot of accidents happen in this situation so I disagree with you on this point.
I know of the situation you speak of... I also know of a person who was involved in that very situation, however the person who went through the yellow/red late was not charged, the person turning was charged with an unsafe left turn...
Furthermore, alot of the "camera'd" intersection are advance green turn only, or cross one ways so the left hand turn across a yellowing light situation, doesn't exist at alot of those intersections..
The most dangerous situation I see daily is the "extra" people following through on a left hand turn, instead of waiting and following the "one car in an intersection at a time" rule, so when the light turns, the car in the intersection starts to turn and then a straggler follows them through, the lights are timed to give the one car enough time, but the other direction is always green by the time the straggler is still crossing lanes, and the cameras are not aimed to catch the turners....
Also, the newest camera at the Mcleod and I think 26th ave? (stamped grounds) that is Northbound, is a total money maker, its an advance turn light, so there is no danger of t boning a turner on a stale, not only that, that set of lights is tied into the LRT signals, and sometimes is incredible short, I have seen that light turn red to green to red in less than 3 seconds with no yellow because of LRT traffic, with a camera on that corner, its gonna be a money printing machine for the city coffers...

Also at southband Mcloed, at 16thave there is another camera, hooked to the 17th ave lights, there is short double set of lights one at 16 th, one at 17th, it use to be that they were timed that if you went through the 16the ave light on a yellow, you made the 17th with ease, it gave a little delay on the 17th ave light so it cleared out that short bit of roadway before 17th, before turning red..
All of my suppliers for work are just south of there, I have probably driven through that intersection 15,000 times in the last 12 years...
Now the timing is changed, if you make the 16th ave light, on late green early yellow , you hit the 17th ave light on a late yellow red doing the limit...
I drive to much to not notice the changes in light timing in this city, also we know how desperate the city is for cash, so I just really don't think this is about safety at all, its taxation with a feel good program attached to it, now everytime this brought forth someone, says %&%&^% RED LIGHT runners deserve to die and page huge fines , my sisters brothers uncles neice was killed by one of those %*^&^&^ Ad nauseam, and really thats just the reaction the city wants people to have instead of looking at the facts of the program , to see how its implemented, and manipulated...No one at least not me is championing the rights of red light runners, the problem I have is really the deciept use to validate money raising, while really doing nothing to improve the overall safety of the situation, change the timing of the lights, change the sequence of the light, I have been to other countries where the sequence is exactly opposite in order to remove the late turn /T-bone scenario, it doesn't have to be an open cash register, nobody wants to die driving, thats enough of a penalty for everyone, the cameras don't take that penalty away, they just take advantage of judgement call, which is vehicle and condition dependent, rather than just a black and white situation as the film shows it...
I know alot of people probably think its to much of a conspiracy to hide, to much of an evil plot, hey but when your employer is paying you like the city pays, with the benefit package the city gives, are you going to say things that threaten your gold plated gig? Without any real whistle blower legislation in place? Probably not, its more likely you see the writing on the wall, and come up with things that make the gold plating thicker, rather than openly question policy and programs which might threaten your position...Its a house of Cards at city hall, and the entire program, is dependent on them all buying into the same bullshit, so thats the way its run...Maxt

[DayGlow]

People are still going through a red light and if they want to pay a voluntary tax because they are in a hurry so my property tax doesn't go up, I'm all for it.

[Maxt]

Do you really think people run reds deliberatlty because they are in a hurry? I don't think thats all of it..
Some people arent paying attention, some people know they can't stop, it depends on the vehicle and the conditions, and some lights have no warning its about to turn, and then its a judgement call, again, I don't think its right to capitalize on factors that are not the same for every motorist, because I took a picture of you with a knife in your hand with blood on it, should I charge you with murder, or ask you how many stitches it took, I simply dont beleive the context of the situation is fairly represented by the cameras, and the I think there is a degree of manipulation to simply raise money ,so should I share in your complacency and just say, becuase people are blind enough to get ripped of by their own governments voluntarily?..This is a a forum on cars, and with enough members to probably wield some clout, all I am speaking out about though, is masqueraded tax on driving, if you chose not to beleive, and perhaps tell others about it, thats fine to..Maxt

[digitalshogun]

Personally ... I don't mind. I'm not a fan of getting tickets but it is pretty much your own fault if you get one. If the situation really warrants it you just take the ticket down and talk to the crown or whatever and have it thrown out. If you have lots of time on your hands schedule a court date. Is it a money making venture? Yup. Were the people not paying attention breaking a traffic law? Yup. I would rather have the city paying cops to deal with bar violence and REAL crime than pay them to sit in a car and waste my time pulling me over for a traffic infraction. I understand what you mean Maxt but at the same time it's sometimes just easier to pay the piper.

[Xtrema]

I love red light cameras. I wish these cameras will eventually cheap enough to be implemented at every lights.

Unless some maniacs is running you down with a AK-47 out the window, you should always obey the law.


Some people arent paying attention
Shouldn't drive and pay the ticket.


some people know they can't stop
Going too fast base on road condition or approaches lights too quick.


it depends on the vehicle and the conditions
Didn't fix your brakes? No winter tires? Shocks worn? Fix them, cheaper than a ticket. Safer for you and others on the road.

All I am saying is, you can throw out a million excuses why you have to run the red. But probably on 5 out of the million is valid.

I'm not a big fan of tickets but I find tickets are the MOST effective way for you to pay attention on the road again.

[sputnik]

I dont mind redlight cameras at all. Personally I think that running a red is far more dangerous that going 10 over the speed limit.

Just be thankful we arent in Winnipeg where the redlight cameras double as multinovas too. So if you fly through a yellow or green light you get a speeding ticket. If you fly through a red you get a redlight ticket AND a speeding ticket.

[cloud7]

Originally posted by sputnik
Just be thankful we arent in Winnipeg where the redlight cameras double as multinovas too. So if you fly through a yellow or green light you get a speeding ticket. If you fly through a red you get a redlight ticket AND a speeding ticket.

actually the police is working on that... they have the technology to do it... actually I think it has been tested in Edmonton already... it is called 'speed on green' where they utilize the red light camera to catch people speeding. But to implement it, they need a change in legislation first.

[DayGlow]

Originally posted by Maxt
Do you really think people run reds deliberatlty because they are in a hurry? I don't think thats all of it..
Some people arent paying attention, some people know they can't stop, it depends on the vehicle and the conditions, and some lights have no warning its about to turn, and then its a judgement call, again, I don't think its right to capitalize on factors that are not the same for every motorist, because I took a picture of you with a knife in your hand with blood on it, should I charge you with murder, or ask you how many stitches it took, I simply dont beleive the context of the situation is fairly represented by the cameras, and the I think there is a degree of manipulation to simply raise money ,so should I share in your complacency and just say, becuase people are blind enough to get ripped of by their own governments voluntarily?..This is a a forum on cars, and with enough members to probably wield some clout, all I am speaking out about though, is masqueraded tax on driving, if you chose not to beleive, and perhaps tell others about it, thats fine to..Maxt

There is a 3 second delay between a yellow and red light. Any roadway that is 80km/hr or over generally have an advanced warning sign. If you are not paying attention then you deserve a ticket. If you cannot control your car and stop in that 3 seconds then you deserve a ticket.

The cameras do not go off if you enter the intersection on a yellow, only a red. Also no one is convicted from the camera, you still have your day in court. If you can explain your reason for entering an intersection on a red light and it reasonable before the court, then you have nothing to worry about.

I feel the same for photo radar. Everyone knows the limit of the roadway and it is their choice to follow it or not. If you cannot see a van parked on the shoulder you are doubly deserving of a ticket. Again you have a day in court if you have a reasonable explaination for going over the limit.

Now if you disagree with the limit on the roadway there are proper legal channels to proceed through to change it. If instead choose to simply speed, then if you are caught don't go whining that it's a tax. The person speeding made the choice to travel over the limit. The need to deal with the consequences of the choice they made.