Mikko's AMG Handling Debate

[Mikko]

AMG seems to make ponycars mostly. Dead steering feel, under steer. Yuck. BMW Motorsports make extremely balanced and well handling cars that love twisty roads (BMW Z3 and Z4 roadster excluded).

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mikko
AMG seems to make ponycars mostly. Dead steering feel, under steer. Yuck. BMW Motorsports make extremely balanced and well handling cars that love twisty roads (BMW Z3 and Z4 roadster excluded).

I just hate it when people make judgement before even DRIVING the cars. I base all my comments on EXPERIENCE with these cars. Oh well, guess you don't know what you're missing.

[max_boost]

Originally posted by rage2


I just hate it when people make judgement before even DRIVING the cars. I base all my comments on EXPERIENCE with these cars. Oh well, guess you don't know what you're missing.

He reads too much.....I don't think he even has his license yet.....:rofl: :rolleyes:

[[GaGe]]

Originally posted by Mikko
AMG seems to make ponycars mostly. Dead steering feel, under steer. Yuck. BMW Motorsports make extremely balanced and well handling cars that love twisty roads (BMW Z3 and Z4 roadster excluded).

Where'd you get THAT from??

[Mikko]

I got my impressions from car magazines and other motor journalists, like "Top Gear", autozine.

Rage2 - There is no way I'm going to get to drive a car like a SLK 32 AMG, or a BMW Z3. Fortunately we can still get knowledge from professionals who do drive these cars and write about their experiences, and as such, get some kind of idea how they really handle.

What I'm missing is irellevant as I could never get such a car anyway. Though fortunately I'm not really a fan of roadsters nor Mercedes.

[boi-alien]

dude this is the thing, you shouldn't form your opinions based on what someone else told you. you should always form your opinions from your own experience.

by your logic, if reading about stuff is the be all and end all way of determining whether or not something is good, you're basically saying that if there were several books/magazines with experts in them that said you should jump out of a plane with no paracute. that's something that everyone should do?

look, the reason why nobody find's what you say credible is because you've never had actual experience. you're going by what you've read, and sure what the experts say may be true, but they also might be biased. you ever think of that? everyone's opinions are biased, cause that's what an opinion is. you should experience it for yourself first before u knock on it.

[Mikko]

If I could really experience everything first hand, that would be marvelous. However that is not possible, so I'm left to reading documented experiences of others. If I was to buy such a car, I would definitely try them first hand.

[GTS Jeff]

well mikko, its fine to read and learn from others...but its quite impossible to take that and present it as your opinion without thoroughly discrediting yourself.

see, ive rode both, but driven neither, so im keeping my mouth shut to keep from looking stupid..

[Mikko]

The problem is there'll be one review where say the SLK 32 has great handling and another that won't.

This assuming that I have actually read/seen two reviews that say the opposite. But I haven't. This is important to me when forming an opinion/impression. In every AMG feature I have observed during the years, the conclusions have been pretty much the same regarding handling.


Your opinion would end up being what you want to believe.

If half the respectable reviewers say it sucks, and the other half says it rocks, I would most likely be indetermined. Another thing one needs to do is try to evaluate who are more believable. Reading a review by someone who reviews her/his own car (typical over at www.epinions.com), then comparing that review to someone like Tiff Needell who is an ex race driver.


Reading different magazines and using different testers/articles to compare cars is just bench racing.

Call it what you will. This forum is stuffed with comments upon comments about cars the people haven't actually driven on a track themselves. Be sure to point it out next time you see someone do it.

[three.eighteen.]

Originally posted by Mikko

Call it what you will. This forum is stuffed with comments upon comments about cars the people haven't actually driven on a track themselves. Be sure to point it out next time you see someone do it.

umm...i havent driven on a track, but at least i've driven!!

[Mikko]

i've driven!!

Driven all the cars you ever comment on? That's great.:clap:

[Mikko]

Edit: Thank you, moderators, I am glad to see Beyond display some quality by keeping namecalling posts and such away. You could have deleted this post too while at it, it contains nothing that is relevant to the topic. :thumbsup:

[kenny]

What needs to be moderated? Don't take offense so easily, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but with that, there will always be disagreements.

[Mikko]

Back on topic:

Is it not true that the SLK 32 AMG has recirculating-ball steering instead of the superior rack & pinion? SUV's and trucks are the most common types of vehicles to use recirculating-ball I believe. This supports the claim of poor steering feel.

[three.eighteen.]

Originally posted by Mikko


Driven all the cars you ever comment on? That's great.:clap:

i've driven at least 1 of the cars i comment on...mine...how many cars have you driven that u comment on? by the sounds of things u sound like you could be colin mcrae or rhys millen

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mikko
Is it not true that the SLK 32 AMG has recirculating-ball steering instead of the superior rack & pinion? SUV's and trucks are the most common types of vehicles to use recirculating-ball I believe. This supports the claim of poor steering feel.

That is one of the dumbest conclusion I've seen you make... another reason not to even bother reading your posts.

The BMW M5 uses RB steering as well, I don't see anyone bitching about it's steering feel. My wife just drove the SLK 32 for the first time the other night, and complained that there's too much road feel. I find it just right.

Just because the SLK's use RB steering (due to packaging) doesn't mean it's automatically going to have poor steering feel. There's a lot more to steering feel than RB design vs R&P designs.

[Mikko]

M3, 3 Series, Mercedes C-class - all of them use Rack & Pinion. In general, rack-and-pinion steering systems tend to offer more precision as they have fewer linkages than recirculating-ball systems. Road feel also is improved because operating friction is reduced.

[rage2]

Thanks for the heads up, but I think I knew that already. Re-read my post, you obviously don't get it.

[Mikko]

It isn't the means and end to all steering, but as I first stated, it does support the claims of uninspiring steering. Think of it as circumstantial evidence. Just like how using macpherson struts up front does suggest that the car is more likely to suffer from torque steer - even if it might not have a lot or any at all.

[rage2]

Let me put myself in a "bench racer's" frame of mind for a second... Let's compare the 2003 540i vs 2003 E500 (using these 2 as I've driven both cars). The E500 has R&P steering, and the 540 has RB steering. The 540 must steer like crap, numb, no feeling because it has RB steering. It has to! So the E500 rocks!

That's not even close to the truth. The 540 has much better road feel than the E500, even though it's using RB steering. Why? Because BMW engineers tuned the 540 to be sportier than the MB engineers wanted the E500 to be. The feel is totally dependant on what the engineer's goals are. Road feel in the steering system is dependant on chassis design.

[Mikko]

I already recognized that long ago in my posts. You are over emphasizing the argument that using inferior technology always results in worse performance, which is not what I am saying. I am saying that it does suggest it could be worse. It is in favour of the position that the car might not have the best of steering feel.

[gpomp]

Originally posted by Mikko
I already recognized that long ago in my posts. You are over emphasizing the argument that using inferior technology always results in worse performance, which is not what I am saying. I am saying that it does suggest it could be worse. It is in favour of the position that the car might not have the best of steering feel.

Inferior technology suggests worse performance? Wow, who would have thought...

[5.9 R/T]

That is a generalization, and not all generalizations are true. For instance all Canadians do not live in igloos.

[Mikko]

Indeed. Thus is can only be regarded as circumstantial evidence.

[5.9 R/T]

Originally posted by Mikko
Indeed. Thus is can only be regarded as circumstantial evidence.

And since in a court of law circumstantial evidence does not hold any value, why bring it up?

[Mikko]

It does hold a value in courts, but not enough to completely free or convict someone.

I brought it up because it's true. The car has recirculating-ball steering. There will be no convictions and the car is not on trial. Just talking in a forum.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mikko
The car has recirculating-ball steering. There will be no convictions and the car is not on trial. Just talking in a forum.
The car's not on trial, but your statements are :
Originally posted by Mikko
AMG seems to make ponycars mostly. Dead steering feel, under steer. Yuck. BMW Motorsports make extremely balanced and well handling cars that love twisty roads (BMW Z3 and Z4 roadster excluded).
I'm trying to use my real world experience to invalidate your claim, but you seem to be hell bent on bench racing without ever even driving or even riding any AMG cars in question.

[Mikko]

I don't have the opportunity to drive such cars.

Because I posted my impressions of the two brands, you have gone out of your way to argue that it is impossible to know anything except mechanical specifications of a car unless one has driven it/own it (you and your wife).

You also did not comment on wether or not AMG really could have less steering feel than BMW M, which I was under the impression of.

[three.eighteen.]

Originally posted by Fuji



The ugly mustard green/yellow color doesn't exist?? I have seen 2 in the city and they are kinda gross.

its called phoenix yellow, i hear it looks aight in person, but in pics...:barf:

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mikko
Because I posted my impressions of the two brands, you have gone out of your way to argue that it is impossible to know anything except mechanical specifications of a car unless one has driven it/own it (you and your wife).

You also did not comment on wether or not AMG really could have less steering feel than BMW M, which I was under the impression of.

That's not what we're arguing about. You generalized that all AMG cars have "dead steering feel and understeer", and I disagreed based on experience. And I feel that you need to drive the cars before being able to make accurate statements regarding road feel, something that is very subjective. You don't need to drive the car to get an idea of things such as acceleration, where the numbers mean something.

[ScCab]

Originally posted by Mikko
I don't have the opportunity to drive such cars.

Because I posted my impressions of the two brands, you have gone out of your way to argue that it is impossible to know anything except mechanical specifications of a car unless one has driven it/own it (you and your wife).

You also did not comment on wether or not AMG really could have less steering feel than BMW M, which I was under the impression of.

your arguements are retarted just like you!

[buh_buh]

Originally posted by ScCab


your arguements are retarted just like you!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
the tribe has spoken.

[Mikko]

Some people just can't resist resorting to name calling when they have nothing to add except their emotional frustration.

Rage2: I said that it seems to me that AMG is more aimed like that. You argued that one can't know until one drove all M and AMG cars, and 'You don't know what you're missing. At no point have you taken a stand in the issue on wether or not AMG is like I suggested, you only said that you and your wife thought the 'road feel' was just right.

I will admit that handling is not as easy to measure as things measurable easily even by very unskilled drivers, such as accelleration figures. But I do think that a skilled experienced driver can definitely convey the handling very accurately. Thus it is even more important to find good, dependable, sources for any accurate info.

[three.eighteen.]

it doesnt take a rocket scientist to realize which cars handle well and which dont...you sit in the car, and you drive it...unless you have no nerves in your ass, hands, and or back and dont understand how driving works...you soon realize how well a car handles...

...and its not the numbers that make the handling necessarily, sure some cars have steering racks 2.5 lock to lock and some other car can pull 1.1 gs on a skidpad...that means nothing to me when im actually behind the wheel...if driving was a science to be dealt with in numbers purely (yes the physics of driving requires numbers) i would be at the u of a taking race car driving classes...

[Mikko]

Handle well given the situation, yeah. But maybe it handles like shit on B-roads. Or maybe it feels very heavy and sluggish at lower speeds on public roads, but when it reaches higher speed on tracks, it handles dream-like. It takes more than just one test drive on public roads, I think.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mikko
Rage2: I said that it seems to me that AMG is more aimed like that. You argued that one can't know until one drove all M and AMG cars, and 'You don't know what you're missing. At no point have you taken a stand in the issue on wether or not AMG is like I suggested, you only said that you and your wife thought the 'road feel' was just right.
As I've said before:
Originally posted by rage2
I disagreed based on experience.
But if you must, I find the SLK 32 to be a very neutral handling car in slow and mid speed corners. Turn in is very neutral (not exactly safe for the untrained) allowing the driver to adjust the attitude of the car with the throttle. High speed corners (3rd gear+) there is very light understeer in turnin, and the throttle can still set the car up the way you want it. Steering feel is excellent, I can feel every bump and dimple the car rides over, even more so than my SLK 320 which had a very good feel for the road. This is for a stock SLK 32 AMG. On mine, with the 1 inch lower ride height and adjustable shocks, I've dialed in slightly more oversteer than stock (suits my driving style) allowing even faster corner entry speeds. Transitional changes are even better due to the lower Center of Gravity.

Originally posted by Mikko
It takes more than just one test drive on public roads, I think.
That's what magazines do to come up with their conclusions in their reviews (except for Long Term tests). So you've just invalidated all your opinions based on magazine reviews.

[max_boost]

I have yet to see anyone defeat Rage2 in an argument yet......good try though Mikko....lol

[Mikko]

:D I'm not throwing in the towel yet. Going to eat dinner now but I'll be back with a good reply.

[legendboy]

I wouldn't bother. All your asumptions are worthless since your not even arguing your own opinions. Your just making a fool of yourself.

[ScCab]

Originally posted by Mikko
:D I'm not throwing in the towel yet. Going to eat dinner now but I'll be back with a good reply.

sounds like a weak ass excuse!

[Mikko]

Evil Administrator - Great blurb on the AMG handling there. That's what I wanted to see. How much suspension travel is left? Any risk of bottoming it out on B roads? :D Kenny was talking about the aggressive ESP system earlier, what can you say about it? Can one disable it?


That's what magazines do to come up with their conclusions in their reviews (except for Long Term tests). So you've just invalidated all your opinions based on magazine reviews.

Crappier magazines only try it in one place. Better ones try on and off tracks at different speeds (such as Top Gear). If you do more extensive reading, you can add up the public road tests versus the track tests, etc. By the way, an opinion is different from an impression, allthough opinions are based on impressions. For my opinion, look at my reply to legendboy.

I aplogize for my outburst at legendboy and ScCab. They are just reallly starting to annoy me with their offensive and free-of-content posts.

legendboy - And if I were you I'd go add some more hp to your Integra instead of posting brainlessly here. I'm sick of people like you flaming and personally attacking without even reading the debate properly. Since you seem a lot slower than your car, let me explain it so you might understand:

1. In a M versus AMG discussion I added my 2 cents that M seems more sportier and driver orientated than AMG.

2. Rage2 argued that my impressions can't be right. I play devils advocate and we are in a rather useless debate over if one really must own the car in question to know how it handles or not.

3. We finally start talking about the actual steering, how it might be like. I value his input to the discussion.

I no where said that AMG did for a fact tune their cars to have less sporty steering. My opinion on the car has not much been disclosed, but here it is - I don't really like the super powerful roadster types of cars, and the design and weight is too high for my liking (so is the price). It's handling matters not to me since I wouldn't dare to race such an expensive convertible anyway. That's my opinion. My impression, on the other hand, is how I percieve the car to be.

Get it now? An assumption, and an opinion, is different from an impression. You seem to be merely another mindless wagon jumper who joins in on the bashing without thinking first.

ScCab - Don't you have anything better to do than being an ass on this forum, you coffin humper. :guns:

[ScCab]

Originally posted by Mikko

ScCab - Don't you have anything better to do than being an ass on this forum, you coffin humper. :guns:

I got more to do than your bullshit anwsers. You don't even have a driver license. you retard. :nut:
why don't you go suck on mommys nipples and ask her if you can borrow her car:rolleyes:

[buh_buh]

Originally posted by Mikko
ScCab - Don't you have anything better to do than being an ass on this forum, you coffin humper. :guns:
yeah, but he can say whatever he wants cuz he's basically admin.
I think that ban button's getting dusty.:rofl:

[Mikko]

Such administrator abuse would greatly lower the (I think) high quality of these boards, like those other car boards people were upset about. Do what I say not what I do kind of behaviour doesn't go fine by me, and I doubt (this is not an assumption, it is a prediction) it'll go past rage2 either. I hope these last three [edit - too many] posts get deleted.

ScCab - Can't you see the multitude of nonsense posts you spam the boards with - 4 so far, with 0 that has anything to do with the topic. Quality and keeping the boards clean seem to be none of your concern. If you are a moderator you are a very poor one.

[ScCab]

im not the one to ban for retarded replies

[ScCab]

Originally posted by Mikko
I doubt it'll go past rage2 either.

what do you know...there you go assumming shit again:nut:

[Ben]

Mikko Mikko Mikko...let me start off by saying STOP! You wont win, nor will your arguments hold any weight whatsoever in this argument due to the fact that One is based on personal expereince, and the other is acting like a Liason defending some magazine company.

I'll tell you one thing and one thing only. I have riddin in with rage both on the track and on some pretty "interesting roads" outside of calgary, and he is probably 1 of maybe 3 drivers I would ever trust. My dad being one, and myself being the other. rage is such an acomplished driver that when he opens his mouth or types something about a car, I can respect his opinion without hesitation or disagreement, because I know for a fact his driving abilities, style, and far superiority over myself. Basically for me, what he says goes. Think about it. Who are you going to believe. Someone whome you respect and know for a fact can drive the car extremely well and note all aspects of the driving experience, or some chet greenwold on a magazine tabloid whom you have never met and may have had a shitty day and not enjoyed his trest drive. Its all realative. You talk and talk about how you say it "seems" and "from what I hear" and "the magazine noted" thats all meaningless because you dont know thier driving style, road conditions or anything like that. I would far rather believe and agreee with someone who has actuall experience, and not someone who reitterates what they read. You dont see doctors doing brain surgery and such right out of textbook med school. it required hundreds of hours of hands on first hand experience. If you dont have that experience, then your sure as hell not qualified to make that cuncurrence.

Thanks, please drive...er...pedal through.

[legendboy]

Originally posted by Mikko
legendboy - And if I were you I'd go add some more hp to your Integra instead of posting brainlessly here. I'm sick of people like you flaming and personally attacking without even reading the debate properly. Since you seem a lot slower than your car, let me explain it so you might understand:


No, you are the one who is brainless. I worked for Benz and I worked at our local BMW dealership as well as sold honda, mazda and toyota so bad for you I've driven the cars that your talking about. I know for a fact that your opinions are pointless. You have no experience with the cars your talking about therefor its bullshit!You cant have an accurate "impression" of a car with no personal experience. You can have an opnion but its based on BS. And my integra is turbocharged.

[SilverRex]

geez, * after reading this long azz post that took me forever.

I must say everyone has a point minus all the name calling. There is no need to use such one way word as 'invalidate other's impression' as after all this is a post were we discuss not rule out people.

I mean you cannot be 100% accurate about the performence and handling of one car thru reading megazine yet you also cannot be 100% sure by just driving the one car. When we say a car has good handling, that comment only applies to THAT person driving the car mostly, so if you have to recommend it to others your initial responds will be to tell them what you think. which is the same way as race car drivers do when they review the car on the track and hence... car megazines and projects.

Think of it this way, there are way more people on this planet that hadnt driven any car. So how will we tell them what cars are good and what is poor? its all in the reading.

One thing though, you dun find too many ppl like mikko. He is surely one of a kind. he can so easily spark a good debate. Isnt that what we want here? gives everyone a chance to say something. after all you have to give this dude maybe 1/2 cent credit since he does read ALOT. I mean alot. Not like me, were I just come in post something, duno what the hell im talking about and just leave.

Its the thinking behind everystatement key. I mean why goto school? why study all the theories? why kant all the school be technical like SAIT. learn hands on and just find a job in the real world. even at SAIT they have half theories half labs. So in other words you need both. they go hand in hand.

I give my props to mikko and his 'never give up' attitude. I mean he lives so far away, cant afford any cars yet takes the time to do his research and made use of all available resources within his reach. I really ought to examine myself and so some more reading.

like the post eariler someone said it doesnt take much to feel what is good handling or bad unless ur azz waz numb. Well for me, my experience driving is limited. so up until now i still duno what is good handling or not. call me stupid. but there isnt enuff cars at my disposal to feel the big difference. afterall I'm planning to goto the track and find out what my car is capable instead of racing in the city which I think is scary.

I'll leave it at that.. gota go work.
latez

[Superesc]

Mikko: Your debate was going well until......


Originally posted by Mikko

ScCab - Don't you have anything better to do than being an ass on this forum, you coffin humper. :guns:

... I can't believe you said that!!!!!!! You are messing with the wrong dude!!!!! ... and I am speaking from experience!!!!!!!!!!!



legendboy - And if I were you I'd go add some more hp to your Integra instead of posting brainlessly here. I'm sick of people like you flaming and personally attacking without even reading the debate properly. Since you seem a lot slower than your car, let me explain it so you might understand

Again....I don't think you should be making such comments, if you don't even know the guy, not to mention his car and his experience...

[SilverRex]

maybe we should change this post - topic to.. 'who shouldnt we mess with' lol

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mikko
1. In a M versus AMG discussion I added my 2 cents that M seems more sportier and driver orientated than AMG.
Wrong. Quote :

Originally posted by Mikko
AMG seems to make ponycars mostly. Dead steering feel, under steer. Yuck. BMW Motorsports make extremely balanced and well handling cars that love twisty roads (BMW Z3 and Z4 roadster excluded).
You made the AMG cars sound like a boat. I disagreed and thus the arguments began. I never said anything about AMG being more sportier/driver oriented than M, or vice versa.

[Chu]

The truth to all this in my opinion which I might be wrong is never bash anyone's car. Basically every car will have its good points and flaws. If you own an amg car you probably will say amg is better than M. When you buy an amg SLK you are basically saying that you will recieve greater consumer surplus from buying that car (AMG Slk) over an M3 convertible. That is why you choose the AMG. In my experience with isn't much but I could buy an AMG SLK (if they weren't so hard to get) but wouldn't because i feel i could buy a different car (like my porsche) and get greater consumer surplus out of it. Lastly the SLK 32 AMG is a great car that has everything a person could ever want. It is fast, fun and is a hard top convertible but the car isn't for me.

[Hakkola]

In a M versus AMG discussion I added my 2 cents that M seems more sportier and driver orientated than AMG.

Is that why you said YUCK in your original post? I think you might've gotten better replies if you posted it in a classier way.

[SilverRex]

Originally posted by rage2

Wrong. Quote :

You made the AMG cars sound like a boat. I disagreed and thus the arguments began. I never said anything about AMG being more sportier/driver oriented than M, or vice versa.

well, we all know this debate can be endless, as everyone just starts targeting specificly what they did or didnt say.

lets rephrase and say this ' well, I guess everyone entitles to their own opinion however if you ask me, this is what I think...and move on...'

I think mikko is just reacting to hostile comments. Let see what happens when you let him say what ever, soon he probablly doesnt know what to say and just give up.

remember the movie epoch? low budget movie talks about an alien device showed up after 4 billions years. the ppl approached it agressively and it resulted a retaliation that almost end up desroying earth.

as soon as the device saw humans finally turn to their emotions and just took a step back and realize how important life is and the point less conflict going on. they were spared in the end and life continues..

ok im not making any sense..
time to take a break

[Superesc]

Originally posted by Mikko
1. In a M versus AMG discussion I added my 2 cents that M seems more sportier and driver orientated than AMG.


I think your comment here are the result of how BMW marketed itself. I think its great that you are reading lots... but when it comes to the value of experience vs. the value of a textbook. Experience always wins out...

[SilverRex]

Originally posted by Chu
SLK 32 AMG is a great car that has everything a person could ever want. It is fast, fun and is a hard top convertible but the car
isn't for me.

You HIT the jackpot buddy. I agree! every car is different and so are the people. Why do you think there is so many different models of cars outthere?
:clap:

[Mikko]

Benny - Interesting bit on Rage there. I definitely put more faith in people I am sure know their stuff. You know that I don't know rage, not at all, just from reading some posts here. His input is valuable to me, and that is the sort of thing I wanted in the first place. I am here to learn. Kenny also has an AMG and I was asking him about it a bit earlier.

legendboy -
..so bad for you I've driven the cars that your talking about How exactly his this bad for me? So instead of being insulting and immature, how about sharing your valuable knowledge on these cars. :dunno:

supersec - I know. I don't know him, but he was extremely rude and immature, and I have had it up to my ears with such attacks. I didn't mean those things I said. Pot boiled over.

Hmm BMW marketing? I haven't seen any BMW ads except those downloadable movies. Also I'm under the impression that the Z3 was a particularily ill handling car. But from BMW in general,it's mostly from reviews and such, the overwhelming praise of the extremely tight handling no matter who reviews them. I hate advertising and marketing :D Btw, thanks for not being an ass. :thumbsup: Yes experience is great - but also people often think too positively of their own posessions. I think Rage2 has too many cars to be THAT partial though, haha. The kind who are less partial to their own posessions are those who have owned many, and can, if they want; change their possessions. They seem less biased. He seems to be one of them.

SilverRex - I agree with your posts (not surprisingly) and thanks for bringing in some more perspectives! Not everyone has worked at mercedes dealerships and owns more than one car. Some of these people should definitely try and be more friendly and layed back. Try and be helpful instead of spewing out personal attacks and insults.

Rage2 - I didn't mean to make them sound like a boat. My impression back then was that steering was over-assisted (not entirely unbelievable considering their luxury oriented brand) and that the chassis was tuned for safer under steer. Not going to reply to my queries about the handling?

Chu - Yes I agree to a large extent. But also, status, image, always dreaming of owning a certain car and such comes into play too. I know of people who have bought worse performing cars willingly because they like the other car better (for whatever reasons). Utility value isn't mostly the thing people want the most.

Hakkola - If you strongly suspect someone is a coffin humper, you might think "yuck" too. :rofl: I was sure to write "seem" to mark that it was my impression, but a load of people thought it was me saying it was a fact anyway.

[T5_X]

I don't know why everyone is jumping on the bandwagon and bashing mikko. He is obviously inexperienced and doesn't have the resources to go out and personally get experience in driving these cars, so he has to rely on reviews and tech theory. From what I can tell, he's done quite a lot of research so far and is going on what seems like common sense to him. People who know this stuff better than him and obviously have more experience and are older than him need not call him names, and he should not retaliate. Keep it on topic, this is about car theory.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Chu
If you own an amg car you probably will say amg is better than M.

I never said AMG is better than M (as a whole). I simply disagree'd with Mikko's statement with all AMG's having dead steering feel, ponycar like, etc.


Originally posted by Chu
When you buy an amg SLK you are basically saying that you will recieve greater consumer surplus from buying that car (AMG Slk) over an M3 convertible.

I lot of people wondered why I choose the SLK 32 AMG... well here it is. I choose the SLK 32 AMG over the M3 convertible because of straightline speed, price, comfort, and the hardtop. I choose the SLK 32 AMG over the M3 coupe because of the convertible factor. I've never driven the M3 convertible, but the M3 coupe definately has more mechanical grip than the SLK 32, where as the SLK 32 will out accelerate it, making the cars pretty close in the hands of a skilled driver. That being said, if I was looking at car that's more geared towards the track and the street, I would've choose the M3 coupe SMG. But remember, the SLK is my wife's daily driver too, therefore the SLK was chosen :D.

One additional note, at the time of the choice between the cars, I did not know about the M3 failures. Now that I know about it, I would not even consider the M3 since I drive my cars HARD. I don't want to worry about the motor going or not, and if warranty will cover it, etc. Until BMW officially addresses the problem, that won't change for me.

[rage2]

Originally posted by SilverRex
I think mikko is just reacting to hostile comments. Let see what happens when you let him say what ever, soon he probablly doesnt know what to say and just give up.

What fun would that be? :D

[RiCE-DaDDy]

this forum is only good when mikko opens his mouth haha

[legendboy]

Originally posted by Mikko
So instead of being insulting and immature, how about sharing your valuable knowledge on these cars. :dunno:

If you read back you will see that you were the one to insult me. I was mearly pointing out that you should quit while you were ahead.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mikko
Not going to reply to my queries about the handling?

Since I already compared the SLK 32 AMG vs the M3, here's my 2 cents.

The M3 beats it in mechanical grip as I've mentioned earlier. It will corner harder, take transitions smoother, basically outhandle the SLK 32 AMG. The SLK suspension can be tuned to match the M3's cornering abilities, but that's besides the point (stock comparisons). Turn in is very sharp on both cars, point and shoot. As you approach the limits (assuming you're reaching it slowly), the M3 will start to tell you you're there with light understeer. The SLK will want to kick the tail out. This is (my guess) due to the skinnier rears, which gets overpowered by the abundance of torque. On fast corners, both cars will understeer lightly at the limit. The SLK is sprung softer than the M3 giving it a better ride, so the M3 will be easier to perform quick transitions than the SLK. Proof of that is my spin at the limits last year at autoX through the slalom portion. Now the all important "steering feel". Both cars feel the same to me. If you're comparing with the SLK 320 though, the M3 definately has more feel and less power steering assist.

With that said, the SLK 32 AMG is not a "ponycar", doesn't have "dead steering feel" or "understeers" like you said, which sparked this whole debate in the first place. It's a great handling car (comparing to the rest of the world) and slightly behind the M3.

[Mikko]

legendboy - Quit what? I was not saying everyones opinions/impressions of the AMG was wrong. This is a debate. I posted my impressions, rage started babbling, but most of the time, this forum has been about wether or not I have a right to post my 2 cents.


I wouldn't bother. All your asumptions are worthless since your not even arguing your own opinions. Your just making a fool of yourself.

You told me not to post anymore. I made no assumptions, but you basically said my posts are worthless, which is very much an insult. I don't see how that translates into me being ahead in any way.

rage2 - Very interesting comparision. What about the ESP? Kenny was talking about it interfering as soon as over steer was to happen.. He also thought that one would get better grip when cornering when putting the top down in the trunk.

Do you know how they are like during:
1. Wet conditions
2. Less ideal roads?

By the way, I was comparing it to BMW M and other cars such as S2000, Boxter S (which people seem to rave about having the most delicate handling and steering), and that the SLK would be like a modern pony car in comparision. I never thought it was any worse than say, an integra. Speaking of ill-handling convertibles, autocar thinks that the Z3 handles worse than a stock Euro Ford Focus. Which must be pretty bad.

[HillBilly]

Originally posted by Mikko
AMG seems to make ponycars mostly. Dead steering feel, under steer. Yuck. BMW Motorsports make extremely balanced and well handling cars that love twisty roads (BMW Z3 and Z4 roadster excluded).

This statement seems like you just wanted to start an argument. Unfourtunatly for you, Rage2 knows what he is talking about. Its not just all, Road & Track this and Motor Trend that.

Kenny's SLK32 AMG did not feel like a ponycar at all. You want to talk ponycars, go find a camaro.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mikko
Very interesting comparision. What about the ESP? Kenny was talking about it interfering as soon as over steer was to happen..

Only on the street. ESP learns after about 1/2 lap to let you get going without interfering much. Turning it on or off will not make much difference at the track (except the first lap).


Originally posted by Mikko
He also thought that one would get better grip when cornering when putting the top down in the trunk.

Yes, I found this out too. Weight distribution goes to the back more. The car power oversteers less and allows better acceleration out of corners with the top down. I lost 20km/h on the front straightaway in the SLK 320 though with the top down due to aerodynamics.


Originally posted by Mikko
Do you know how they are like during:
1. Wet conditions
2. Less ideal roads?

I've never pushed an M3 in the wet or less than idea roads. I'm not Colin McRae.

[max_boost]

Originally posted by Mikko


Do you know how they are like during:
1. Wet conditions
2. Less ideal roads?


Ok you guys seriously don't know about Mikko from Calgary Planet.....the dude is relentless man......lol

Why would you want to test the car out in such conditions?

[Mikko]

To see how it handles in real world conditions, where it is mostly driven (mmm a metal top). And face it, it does rain even on track day :)

Relentless? lol, forums are limitless.

[speedracer]

Originally posted by Mikko
To see how it handles in real world conditions, where it is mostly driven (mmm a metal top). And face it, it does rain even on track day :)
So far it's been pretty funny to read:rofl:
I'm amazed how much Rage2 posted :D

Track conditions are not real world comparisions.
And, YES, it does rain , hail, snow, wind... on race tracks. Not sure where you got that impression:confused:

Long term driving test would be better comparisions.
Vehicals are never driven to the limit on the street - theres such a thing as stop signs, pedestrians...

Mikko - My advice is to read real books. It shows the lack of knowledge one has in this subject. Pick up some engineering books on vehical dynamics. Car magazines are not considered as a reliable source or research for that matter.

Having an opinion is one thing but you must have facts to back up your imperical research. As well, if it is YOUR opinion one should state just that and not claim it as the truth.

[Mikko]

I don't recall, and certainly never intended, to pass my impressions off as truths. :)

[turboMiata]

This thread is stupid. It's obvious somebody wants to start a flame war.

I don't buy a car based on what I read. Who cares what those Top Gear guys say? They have their own driving preferences and so do I. But my opinions RULE because it's my frigging coin!!

Since we are at it, why don't we start another Supercharger or Turbocharger debate.

Close this thread! LOL

[kenny]

Originally posted by speedracer
Vehicals are never driven to the limit on the street - theres such a thing as stop signs, pedestrians...

Meet rage2 yet? lol j/k



Originally posted by turboMiata
Since we are at it, why don't we start another Supercharger or Turbocharger debate.

No point, b/c we all know that superchargers are superior! :rofl:


Originally posted by Mikko
To see how it handles in real world conditions, where it is mostly driven (mmm a metal top).

In "real world conditions" when it is raining, snowing, hailing, etc, handling differences in cars are probably negligible as you would be driving so far from the limit for any superior design to really shine. Well... at least over here in North America where the average unlicensed person behind the wheel realizes they are not colin mcrae.

As for on the track I don't think it really matters what car it is and how well the car handles, because any track warrior who is going to beat on a wet track will know how to adapt to whatever car he/she is given and drive it at the limit.

Flame away at my opinions :)

[300rwhp]

eatin' aint cheatin' thats what i keep tellin myself mmmmm bacon with a side grease diet

[300rwhp]

woops the o and f key are to greasy my fat hands keep sliding off of the them the above post should have read bacon with a side of grease

[turboMiata]

Originally posted by kenny

No point, b/c we all know that superchargers are superior! :rofl:



Forced fed all the way!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[rage2]

Originally posted by speedracer
I'm amazed how much Rage2 posted :D

It was a slow day at work.


Originally posted by speedracer
Vehicals are never driven to the limit on the street - theres such a thing as stop signs, pedestrians...

Just small obstacles... you CAN drive close to the limits on the streets (just don't get caught! :D)


Originally posted by kenny
No point, b/c we all know that superchargers are superior! :rofl:

I'm starting to believe it too... Last 10 days :

AMG 9.5
Porsche 0.5

Wife's gonna bitch when I start fighting her for the AMG when she needs it...