salt on roads

[BumpinTalon]

Really, what is the point of salt on the roads? on my drive today, the only roads that had thawed out and were totally dry was Highway 1A, outside the city limits (where it is not salted), and every road I drove on that had been salted was still slippery as hell with like 2 inches of snow and ice still laying on top.
is there any actual real scientific proof that salt melts the snow? I would rather they just not salt the roads at all so that our cars don't get all messed up and rusted out and we don't have those tiny little rocks flying all over the god damn place.

[Mad$ella]

Yes there is scientific proof, a salt water solution will freeze at a lower temp, then a non-saline solution. That means that when salt mixes with the water on the road it will only freeze at a lower temperature, therefore its supposed to create less ice. The problem is salt only lowers the freezing point by a few degrees, 7 i think. So when its really cold, ice will form no matter what. Thats the reasoning behind it. I dont like salt because it accelerates the rusting process.

[Speed_69]

yea i don't think they should put salt on the roads anymore, they should just have more snow plows and snow removal trucks

[djstefan]

Hmm, scientific proof that salt melts the snow..... take some salt, take some snow, and mix them together.

Also, in AB, they are not using salt. It's a calcium based mix. Better for the environment and also it doesn't cause rust. But it melts the snow only down to a certain temperature. Anything below that and will freeze.

If you wanna see what salt does, go to Quebec and Ontario and check out the cars there. :D

[86max]

So you're saying this white "stuff" they're putting on the roads doesn't accelerate the rusting process in any way?

[BumpinTalon]

well okay then
sanding the roads? I hate that too because it destroys paint and the road is still slippery afterwards. I say they should only plow the roads, and people who are too stupid to drive in slippery conditions deserve to crash.

[benyl]

haha, that isn't sand they put on the roads... that is GRAVEL!

[Speed_69]

Originally posted by djstefan
Hmm, scientific proof that salt melts the snow..... take some salt, take some snow, and mix them together.

Also, in AB, they are not using salt. It's a calcium based mix. Better for the environment and also it doesn't cause rust. But it melts the snow only down to a certain temperature. Anything below that and will freeze.

If you wanna see what salt does, go to Quebec and Ontario and check out the cars there. :D

i'm pretty sure the stuff they use in AB is salt too..it's just that in Quebec and Ontario they use more. If it was better for the environment and doesn't cause rust, i think every province would be using it then.

[BumpinTalon]

Originally posted by Speed_69


i'm pretty sure the stuff they use in AB is salt too..it's just that in Quebec and Ontario they use more. If it was better for the environment and doesn't cause rust, i think every province would be using it then.

it probably costs twice as much. and everybody knows every single province is fuckin broke and in debt, except Alberta.

[streetarab]

sanding the roads? I hate that too because it destroys paint and the road is still slippery afterwards
thats true, once the pavement is dry, there is a heavy layer of sand, which can be very slippery, i love it because its easy to drift in, but there are people too dumb out there, they will end up crashin because of it

[H4LFY2nR]

How does the calcium based stuff not accelerate rusting? Anything that dissolves into its respective ions will accelerate rusting by providing a stronger electrolyte for the transfer of charge.

[heavyD]

Calgary doesn't salt which is a good thing. Go to Ontario & Quebec and you will see that the undercarrige of newer cars rusting out that you don'te see here.

My big beef is the amount of gravel they use in Calgary. It's totally unnecessary. We get 0.5 mm of snow and the gravel trucks are out in full force like is is a blizzard. It's a joke. Once they put it down 90% of the gravel is spit out to the sides of the road after the first wave of traffic so really all you get is buildup in the sides and middle of the roads and none where the traffic is actually moving.

Calgary has the highest per capita winshield replacement rate in North America for crying out loud. You really can't drive a car with a nice paint job in the winter here because of the amount of rock chips you get.

I personally think someone at city hall is in cahoots with the gravel suppliers as well that city workers get plenty of overtime $$$$ graveling 24/7.

[grocko]

I heard that Magnesium was another substance that could be used to thaw out ice on roads and not cause rust on cars, but the only problem is that it's fairly expensive...maybe if there's some way to lessen the price it could be used?? :dunno:

[DonJuan]

you guys are both speaking of salts, one NaCl (rock salt, used in Ontario), and the supposed Calcium salts, (CaCO3). Both of these are abundant in nature and can be used for de-icing roads. The problem is is that when water (H20) and the iron (Fe) from cars are added together you get:
NaCl + H2O + Fe2+ => NaOH + HCl + Fe2O3 (rust)
with the Calcium:
CaCO3 + H2O + Fe2+ => CaOH + H2CO3 + Fe2O3 (rust)
you get rust either way.
I don't know what's used on the roads in Alberta, but when it's this cold, you can only pray for warmth to unfreeze it.
(I hate Chemistry)

[BlackArcher101]

I do know they are starting to use magnesium chloride on the highways. Perhaps they are starting to in the city.

Each kind of salt has pluses and minuses. The liquid mag is used on the road before freezing temperature exist, to prevent the ice from forming and sticking to the road. The corrosion on iron is a lot less, but there is evidence that corrosion on aluminum increases.

Rock salt is used mainly because it is cheap and works ok at lower temperatures. Calgary does in fact use salt, but mixes it with the sand.

Here's a link for info on the various kinds... if you want to read about de-icers :dunno:
http://www.peterschemical.com/Break%20the%20Ice.htm

[Chinese_Legend]

throwing tons of hot water on the road would make it melt too...just make it seem more like a rainy condition

[Speed_69]

Originally posted by Chinese_Legend
throwing tons of hot water on the road would make it melt too...just make it seem more like a rainy condition
i like your idea :thumbsup:

[Altezza]

Originally posted by Chinese_Legend
throwing tons of hot water on the road would make it melt too...just make it seem more like a rainy condition

And how does this solve anything? Sure, you melt the snow, but it'll just freeze into a nice sheet of ice 20 mins later.

[BumpinTalon]

Originally posted by Altezza


And how does this solve anything? Sure, you melt the snow, but it'll just freeze into a nice sheet of ice 20 mins later.

I propose that somebody uses the same technology in our heated seats and toasters, put something like that under the surface of the road, and heat those mofos up. then we might have a problem with bums sleeping on the streets though.

[Fuji]

Originally posted by Chinese_Legend
throwing tons of hot water on the road would make it melt too...just make it seem more like a rainy condition

I can't believe you just posted that.:rofl:

[t-im]

Originally posted by BumpinTalon


I propose that somebody uses the same technology in our heated seats and toasters, put something like that under the surface of the road, and heat those mofos up. then we might have a problem with bums sleeping on the streets though.

heated driveways etc do exist, but they are killer on your electricity bill - could you imagine having that for most main roads in calgary? we'd be taxed like crazy..haha

[Maxt]

Originally posted by Mad$ella
Yes there is scientific proof, a salt water solution will freeze at a lower temp, then a non-saline solution. That means that when salt mixes with the water on the road it will only freeze at a lower temperature, therefore its supposed to create less ice. The problem is salt only lowers the freezing point by a few degrees, 7 i think. So when its really cold, ice will form no matter what. Thats the reasoning behind it. I dont like salt because it accelerates the rusting process.
I beleive the magic number for the freezing point of sodium chloride is -21.7 c, thats the coldest , possible freezing point available. The problems with salts is that freezing point is a rising U shaped freezing curve, add to much and the freezing point starts to rise , otherwise known as the eutectic point or a eutectic mixture , the salt just precipitates out of solution and the freeze point rises again.
The stuff the city is using is calcium chloride, supposedly friendlier than sodium chloride, in truth its still nasty shit though, just a little friendlier on plants and fish, but equally as corrosive to metal..
If the city would just use sand instead of boulders the ice wouldn't be such a problem, but the gravel they use is "cheaper"...Maxt

[Moe Man]

when ppl from calgary go to ontario we ask why is everyones car rusted out, and when ppl from ontario come here they ask why everyones windshield is broken

i would rather have a broken windshield than a rusted out car

[SilverBoost]

This is my first year here, and I gotta say.... man they use boulders not sand :)

BUt yeah out east they use a lot of salt. I wouldnt dare drive my car out there after the first freeze. Here I know, your car won't rust as bad, so as long as you keep things clean fairly often it shoudln't be too bad. I really only drive when I absolutely have to anyhow.

As for the rock chips, I'm crossing my fingers that my windshiel dstays in tact till srping. I just keep back good distances.

One thing though.... what's all this gravel going to look like in spring when things start to melt? At least now the snow and ice is helpign keep the gravel on the road. But in spring is ther going to a window where you should just stay out of the rock showers??

[Maxt]

I don't know whats up with the reasoning of the gravel, besides the cost, I know a truck load of sand is a bit more than a truck load of pea gravel, but for the havoc it plays on the glass, its really a bad decision IMHO.. I know there was a write up in the herald with a bunch of pea brained excuses for the gravel from the city, but I have driven through towns that use sand exclusivley, and it works much better on packed snow/ice than gravel, it doesn't get pushed to the sides like gravel 5 minutes after application, it embeds itself in the snow/ice and makes it like 60 grit sand paper...Maybe somebody at public works owns a couple of standard autoglass locations...:dunno: ...Maxt

[heavyD]

Originally posted by Maxt
I don't know whats up with the reasoning of the gravel, besides the cost, I know a truck load of sand is a bit more than a truck load of pea gravel, but for the havoc it plays on the glass, its really a bad decision IMHO.. I know there was a write up in the herald with a bunch of pea brained excuses for the gravel from the city, but I have driven through towns that use sand exclusivley, and it works much better on packed snow/ice than gravel, it doesn't get pushed to the sides like gravel 5 minutes after application, it embeds itself in the snow/ice and makes it like 60 grit sand paper...Maybe somebody at public works owns a couple of standard autoglass locations...:dunno: ...Maxt

I totally agree. The gravel is only effective for the first few passes of cars then it just accumulates on the side of the road. Then you get behind some idiot that can't drive straight and runs into the gravel patches on the sides and give's your car a nice rock blast. I really believe that someone in public works is in cahoots with someone who profits from all the gravel. Edmonton doesn't use near as much gravel and I don't hear of them getting more accidents.

And for the guy that just moved to the city. In the spring the city roads look horrible until late April/May when they finally clean the piles of gravel off the road.

[Prelude_dude]

I donno... stop complaing... calgary isn't that bad... i'd rather have that then in Saskatchewan.. in saskatchewan they do BOTH, hardcore salting, and hardcore graveling, add that with all the farmers and all their big ass TRUCKS, and like fucking tractors and shit on the highway... and i do 60 km of highway driving a day... and i get passed by trucks and shit all the time.. and fuck.. my hood is rocked chipped to shit.. and then a nice white cloud of salt follows it.. just from a week .. i already got rust on my hood.. A WEEK!! goddamn it.. a big chunk out of my hood.. plus rust in it.. goddamn.. a lude in winter is killer... i hate saskatchewan lol

[theken]

yeah saskatchewan is really good for nothing

[heavyD]

I was in Saskatoon not too long ago and there was barely any gravel on the roads (lots of salt though). Keep in mind that Calgary uses more gravel than any city in Canada by far so any other city will look good in comparison. One thing I can say is that the conditions of their roads are horrible. They look like they needed to be re-paved 15 years ago and haven't got around to it yet. Saskatchewan is a truly horrible place there is no boubt about it. (Sorry to offend anyone from the province but it really does suck.)

[?????]

Originally posted by BlackArcher101
I do know they are starting to use magnesium chloride on the highways. Perhaps they are starting to in the city.

Each kind of salt has pluses and minuses. The liquid mag is used on the road before freezing temperature exist, to prevent the ice from forming and sticking to the road. The corrosion on iron is a lot less, but there is evidence that corrosion on aluminum increases.


If your right about the way it works we do use it in the city. I think thats why are roads are so white after the snow melts sometimes. Its definatly not salt cuz the whole roads is evenly white like what a chemical would do. :dunno:
Yeah last month on the news they said ONE car travelling at 60km/h would push all the gravel to the side of the roads.