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GTS Jeff
02-01-2005, 01:49 AM
C'mon guys, high school, especially graduating from it, is not a big deal. EVERYONE gets through it, so graduating is not a big accomplishment at all. I mean, look at all the jokers on beyond that are highschoolers. It doesn't do a thing to get you ahead in life, it doesn't get you jobs, and it doesn't make you smarter than anyone else, since everyone else did it too.

I don't get why some people think high school diploma exams are such a big deal, why they'd study hours and hours at it just for a couple extra percent? Or the people that actually bother to frame their high school diplomas or even bother keeping it? Haha can someone explain this to me?

mo_virgin
02-01-2005, 01:59 AM
I agree its not a big deal... and yet high school was one of the best times of my life. School was easy, the girls were plentiful, and 17th Ave for drinking at lunch hour (western).
I sure do miss it now that im in university.

7thgenvic
02-01-2005, 02:03 AM
it can be a big deal! look at it this way, if you dont' have good marks in highschool how do you expect to get into university!

and if you don't have exceptional marks how do you get into the faculty that you want?

High school if VERY important! and when you say it doesn't make you smarter than anyone else! your very wrong! sure everyone graduates for the most part! but who gets better jobs down the road! the people with better work ethics and brains or the pot heads and skaters that didn't do dick all to pass grade 12.

If i compare myself to other highschool students, i can say im better off down the road from those other graduates because i cared about my future and not cared how drunk i was at the last highschool party!

Melinda
02-01-2005, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by 7thgenvic
it can be a big deal! look at it this way, if you dont' have good marks in highschool how do you expect to get into university!

and if you don't have exceptional marks how do you get into the faculty that you want?

High school if VERY important! and when you say it doesn't make you smarter than anyone else! your very wrong! sure everyone graduates for the most part! but who gets better jobs down the road! the people with better work ethics and brains or the pot heads and skaters that didn't do dick all to pass grade 12.

If i compare myself to other highschool students, i can say im better off down the road from those other graduates because i cared about my future and not cared how drunk i was at the last highschool party!
100% :werd: It's not a huge deal where you graduated or anything, but high school is important. Not only for setting the groundwork for your future (in most people's cases) with university, jobs, ect. but it also teaches you alot about life, work ethic, dealing with stressful situations, having to make tough decisions, peer pressure, ect ect ect. You get the point :) I agree with you 100% :thumbsup:

Sorath
02-01-2005, 02:16 AM
also, high school is where u learn the basic essentials for each course before u go in greater detail in post secondary institutions

7thgenvic
02-01-2005, 02:24 AM
Originally posted by Melinda

100% :werd: It's not a huge deal where you graduated or anything, but high school is important. Not only for setting the groundwork for your future (in most people's cases) with university, jobs, ect. but it also teaches you alot about life, work ethic, dealing with stressful situations, having to make tough decisions, peer pressure, ect ect ect. You get the point :) I agree with you 100% :thumbsup:

smart girl!
the other point that i wanted to bring up was that! When i look back at highschool now and some of the people who didn't give a rats ass about school, they are the ones still smoking pot and doing nothing with their lives!
and sure there are the exceptions that do get away from that, and make something of themselves.

But out of all the people on this site< how many of you know individuals who back in highschool didn't care, didn't do well, partied, who are now successful people and are going somewhere with their lives?

googe
02-01-2005, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by 7thgenvic


But out of all the people on this site&lt; how many of you know individuals who back in highschool didn't care, didn't do well, partied, who are now successful people and are going somewhere with their lives?

actually id almost bet that people on this site that did that outnumber the ones that arent going anywhere...we seem to have a handful of dropouts that are doing just fine for themselves :D

/////AMG
02-01-2005, 07:34 AM
High School - something you'll remember everytime you succeed or fail in life.

MerfBall
02-01-2005, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by 7thgenvic

But out of all the people on this site&lt; how many of you know individuals who back in highschool didn't care, didn't do well, partied, who are now successful people and are going somewhere with their lives?

Rage :nut: :nut:

Those of you who make a big deal out of highschool grad will get a shocker at university grad.

Def_3
02-01-2005, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by GTS Jeff
C'mon guys, high school, especially graduating from it, is not a big deal. EVERYONE gets through it, so graduating is not a big accomplishment at all. I mean, look at all the jokers on beyond that are highschoolers. It doesn't do a thing to get you ahead in life, it doesn't get you jobs, and it doesn't make you smarter than anyone else, since everyone else did it too.

I don't get why some people think high school diploma exams are such a big deal, why they'd study hours and hours at it just for a couple extra percent? Or the people that actually bother to frame their high school diplomas or even bother keeping it? Haha can someone explain this to me?

Yeah the test are no biggy, but other wise I disagree with you 100%

56% of our grade graduated in 2001,

with my high school degree I have job where I am seniority to people aged 30-45 with ba's a few have mba's

highschool isnt all you should have, but you dont necessarily need more either, I am personally doing my ba parttime, but it gets discouraging, when you take into account how much school is, how many university grads are pushing wheelbarrows around, and looking at big ceo's and execs that only have high school,

gf's dad is president of marketing for cisco systems, and all he has is high school........

my point is high school is a big deal as it is a corner stone in developing your future

GTS Jeff
02-01-2005, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by 7thgenvic
it can be a big deal! look at it this way, if you dont' have good marks in highschool how do you expect to get into university!

and if you don't have exceptional marks how do you get into the faculty that you want?

You don't need good marks to get into University. You just need to make sure you aren't stupid. With an 85% average you can anywhere you want and getting into the 80s in high school is definitely not hard.


Originally posted by 7thgenvic
sure everyone graduates for the most part! but who gets better jobs down the road! the people with better work ethics and brains or the pot heads and skaters that didn't do dick all to pass grade 12.

If i compare myself to other highschool students, i can say im better off down the road from those other graduates because i cared about my future and not cared how drunk i was at the last highschool party!

Right, but you are talking about your personal work ethic. High school really has nothing to do with your personal work ethic. The fact that the pot heads and skaters that you're talking about managed to pass high school too proves that it doesn't take much to pass high school. It's NOT an accomplishment.


Originally posted by Sorath
also, high school is where u learn the basic essentials for each course before u go in greater detail in post secondary institutions

Nope. Introductory post-secondary classes are basically a rehash of grade 12 classes with emphasis on more details. Universities do this because they need to make sure that all students start at the same level, since every province has a slightly different curriculum. Chem 101 is essentially the same as Chem30. English 101 is essentially the same as English30.

Originally posted by Def_3
with my high school degree I have job where I am seniority to people aged 30-45 with ba's a few have mba's

You're proving my point, not yours, with this statement. All those people under you also have high school. Look how far it got them! As you've proven, it's your resourcefulness that got you ahead of them, NOT your high school background, because those people, despite their superior education which goes further than high school, are still working under you.

See what I mean guys? High school graduation is nothing to be proud of, it's an empty accomplishment, or in high school playground speak, "IT DON'T MEAN SHIT!"

nismodrifter
02-01-2005, 05:10 PM
high school aint' shit, end of discussion, I'm going to go hunt demons, piece!

finboy
02-01-2005, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by GTS Jeff

See what I mean guys? High school graduation is nothing to be proud of, it's an empty accomplishment, or in high school playground speak, &quot;IT DON'T MEAN SHIT!&quot;

:werd:

is this going to break into another "is school useless?" thread?

because if so, this is going to be awsome :rofl:

Singel
02-01-2005, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by GTS Jeff


You don't need good marks to get into University. You just need to make sure you aren't stupid. With an 85% average you can anywhere you want and getting into the 80s in high school is definitely not hard.



Right, but you are talking about your personal work ethic. High school really has nothing to do with your personal work ethic. The fact that the pot heads and skaters that you're talking about managed to pass high school too proves that it doesn't take much to pass high school. It's NOT an accomplishment.



Nope. Introductory post-secondary classes are basically a rehash of grade 12 classes with emphasis on more details. Universities do this because they need to make sure that all students start at the same level, since every province has a slightly different curriculum. Chem 101 is essentially the same as Chem30. English 101 is essentially the same as English30.


You're proving my point, not yours, with this statement. All those people under you also have high school. Look how far it got them! As you've proven, it's your resourcefulness that got you ahead of them, NOT your high school background, because those people, despite their superior education which goes further than high school, are still working under you.

See what I mean guys? High school graduation is nothing to be proud of, it's an empty accomplishment, or in high school playground speak, &quot;IT DON'T MEAN SHIT!&quot;

Just because you can sleep through high school and get 80s doesnt mean everyone else can. Some people just aren't that bright, but they often end up achieving more by working hard than lazy ass smart kids.

Work ethic is learned through practice. HS is a good place to practice it, a lot of people think they can just turn it on when they need to, I know I did. But now I have the same feelings about university, its not important, i can get a 3.3 with no effort, so why bother. I still probly figure I'll turn it on when I need to in the workplace, but I'll likely end up being apathetic and lazy while stupider people get promoted above me for working hard.

I just think your assumptions that everyone is universally bright, and can work hard whenever they want is off.

And who actually takes Chem 101 and Engl 101? If u pass in high school then u dont need to take them...200 level courses maybe do 1 day or the first week of school as a review, and from there you're expected to know everything.

I'm in math 251 now, and for the first week of review it was all new to me since I caught up on my sleepduring math in HS, luckily for me I'm natural at math and managed to BS my way through the quiz without studying and zoning out during the review lectures lol. But not everyone can expect to do that, and all the kids who were atleast awake in HS probly dominated me on the quiz.

GTS Jeff
02-01-2005, 05:41 PM
As for the argument that high school builds character, I'd also disagree with that.

When does a person change the most in their young life? It is when they turn 16? Or is it when they grow from being a punk kid into an adult? How many people do you see turning into adults in high school?

I'm sure that everyone who's moved out of the nest will agree with me when I say that the biggest change in your life, the biggest learning experience, is having to learn to manage your own life and deal with your own problems. Something like figuring out how to be in the cool clique in high school pales in comparison. High school, which it may be a minor influence on one's life, is certainly not a defining moment.

GTS Jeff
02-01-2005, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by Singel


Having rich parents does hurt, just an assumption though but many dumbass rich kids get over, and im sure many people fit both descriptions on this site.



Just because you can sleep through high school and get 80s doesnt mean everyone else can. Some people just aren't that bright, but they often end up achieving more by working hard than lazy ass smart kids.

Work ethic is learned through practice. HS is a good place to practice it, a lot of people think they can just turn it on when they need to, I know I did. But now I have the same feelings about university, its not important, i can get a 3.3 with no effort, so why bother. I still probly figure I'll turn it on when I need to in the workplace, but I'll likely end up being apathetic and lazy while stupider people get promoted above me for working hard.

I just think your assumptions that everyone is universally bright, and can work hard whenever they want is off.

And who actually takes Chem 101 and Engl 101? If u pass in high school then u dont need to take them...200 level courses maybe do 1 day or the first week of school as a review, and from there you're expected to know everything.

I'm in math 251 now, and for the first week of review it was all new to me since I caught up on my sleepduring math in HS, luckily for me I'm natural at math and managed to BS my way through the quiz without studying and zoning out during the review lectures lol. But not everyone can expect to do that, and all the kids who were atleast awake in HS probly dominated me on the quiz. We're not here to talk about peoples' intelligence, we're talking about how high school graduation is nothing to be proud of. If I were to humor your post, we'd be straying off topic.

As a little note for you, Chem101 at the U of A is equivalent to Chem201 at the U of C, and English 101 at the U of A is equivalent to two English 2xx courses at the U of C. What I'm saying is that all introductory courses at the post-secondary level are essentially a repeat of grade 12 knowledge. Sorry about the confusion.

Weapon_R
02-01-2005, 05:52 PM
High school is only good for the vast majority of the population who decides to work and not continue any further.

Personally, it didn't matter to me. Highschool was a great time to screw around and do absolutely nothing at all. Come to think about it, the only memories I have of high school are ones that I am not really that proud of :D

High school doesn't mean shit. Anyone can graduate from high school. And most people do.

ExtremeSi
02-01-2005, 05:58 PM
I completely agree with you Jeff. I tried way harder than I needed to in H/S to get good marks while everyone was always partying and shit. All I needed was a 79% to get into engineering at the time of my graduation but I had a 88%. I could of slacked off that extra 9% of work and had a ton more fun in H/S.
Looking back the only good thing was hanging out with all your friends all the time.

I also agree that I have changed the most since I have taken a year off school and have been working full-time. I recommend this to everyone! It changes a lot of my views of the world and my life. I never thought this way while in school. You're taught that school is everything, but it's not at all. Robert Kiyosaki (author of Rich Dad, Poor Dad - an amazing read) had a good point when he mentioned that everything seems to be advancing faster than school. What they teach you and the techniques they use now are basically the same as those a hundred years ago, yet the world is changing rapidly. In the workforce of today a piece of paper gets your foot in the door, but that's it. There are many other ways to find employment today.

finboy
02-01-2005, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Def_3

highschool isnt all you should have, but you dont necessarily need more either, I am personally doing my ba parttime, but it gets discouraging, when you take into account how much school is, how many university grads are pushing wheelbarrows around, and looking at big ceo's and execs that only have high school,


thats a big one for me, the cost of school is insane, i'll probably blow 20 grand once i'm done, not to mention the potential money that i would make w/o being in post secondary. when i look at it, but my mom graduated from the u of c, but her job in the oil industry does'nt even come close to relating to the field she is in. my dad's degree somewhat relates to his job as he is in HR, but i am willing to bet that a large majority of the classes he took don't even relate and never will, same with my sister.

pixil9
02-01-2005, 06:24 PM
school sucks. I make a lot of money with no education.

Singel
02-01-2005, 06:24 PM
I'm definately not proud of my HS diploma, i could care less, but for many, many people it is something to be proud of. It is nice of you to condescend to someone who comes from a broken home, has to work long hours during high school to feed himself, and try to find time and energy to study a bit because he just wasn't blessed with the same brights as many others. Don't devalue that accomplishment for someone who was expected to be on the street or in jail before walking across the stage.

And you're taking something for granted that most people in the world aren't given the right to...free education. And I don't think you understand the importance of education towards your becoming a functioning member of society. Every little trigonometric ratio and literary device my see insignificant individually (and they probly are) but the culmination of your twelve years of education are really what have prepared you for real life, and allowed you to learn once you're out there on your own.

Compare where someone who drops out immediately at 16 will be @ age 20 vs. if that same person had graduated HS at age 20. I'm sure the graduate is going to be far ahead, with atleast a semi decent job and warm place to live while while the same dropout will be living paycheque to paycheque from MacDonald's (He's assistant weekend manager by now) living in a cheap dingy apartment.

From reading these boards I can now see where a lot of the anti teacher sentiment in society comes from, along with anti police, etc.

Melinda
02-01-2005, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by GTS Jeff
As for the argument that high school builds character, I'd also disagree with that.

When does a person change the most in their young life? It is when they turn 16? Or is it when they grow from being a punk kid into an adult? How many people do you see turning into adults in high school?

I'm sure that everyone who's moved out of the nest will agree with me when I say that the biggest change in your life, the biggest learning experience, is having to learn to manage your own life and deal with your own problems. Something like figuring out how to be in the cool clique in high school pales in comparison. High school, which it may be a minor influence on one's life, is certainly not a defining moment.
I dunno, I feel like I learned a ton about myself and other people during high school. Achieving goals, being on teams, playing sports and working together, helping friends through tough times in their lives, even dealing with the tough stuff that everyone has to go through together like a suicide amoungst your friends or some similar situation.

All that stuff makes you strong and builds your character. No matter how old you are. Moving out and being on your own teaches you tons as well, but I can positively say that alot of the things I dealt with in school have made me into the person I am, given me the values I have and laid alot of the groundwork for the rest of my life/future. I guess it depends on what you choose to take from high school. I did alot more than just hanging out and partying whereas alot of people just stuck to their core group that they are still friends with to this day...what you take from those three years really depends on your experiences you go through while you're there.

SmAcKpOo
02-01-2005, 06:26 PM
high school gives u a kick in the right direction. i believe the rest comes from being street smart and practical

Singel
02-01-2005, 06:29 PM
lol, when i quote ur post this comes up:


Originally posted by pixil9
school sucks. I make a lot of money with no education.

Sums up your thoughts i guess. Chances are that lie will catch up with you, one thing I've already learned in university is that its not smart to lie on your resume, you may beat the system and if u do props, u saved urself a lot of time and $$

Melinda
02-01-2005, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by pixil9
school sucks. I make a lot of money with no education.
And you demonstrate your lack of education perfectly in every post you make on this forum :)

Weapon_R
02-01-2005, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by Singel
I'm definately not proud of my HS diploma, i could care less, but for many, many people it is something to be proud of. It is nice of you to condescend to someone who comes from a broken home, has to work long hours during high school to feed himself, and try to find time and energy to study a bit because he just wasn't blessed with the same brights as many others. Don't devalue that accomplishment for someone who was expected to be on the street or in jail before walking across the stage.

And you're taking something for granted that most people in the world aren't given the right to...free education. And I don't think you understand the importance of education towards your becoming a functioning member of society. Every little trigonometric ratio and literary device my see insignificant individually (and they probly are) but the culmination of your twelve years of education are really what have prepared you for real life, and allowed you to learn once you're out there on your own.

Compare where someone who drops out immediately at 16 will be @ age 20 vs. if that same person had graduated HS at age 20. I'm sure the graduate is going to be far ahead, with atleast a semi decent job and warm place to live while while the same dropout will be living paycheque to paycheque from MacDonald's (He's assistant weekend manager by now) living in a cheap dingy apartment.

From reading these boards I can now see where a lot of the anti teacher sentiment in society comes from, along with anti police, etc.

You're also the anti-conservative, which just about sums up your arguments here. I'm surprised you didn't end your quote with the line "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."

iceburns288
02-01-2005, 06:42 PM
^^:rofl: :rofl:

I really want to do well in high school... I try to... but not too hard. Standardized tests I do for fun... my girlfriend who I took the AMC10 with this morning was only doing it for the extra credit... I didn't even know we got extra credit in math for participating. I need it though.:D

I personally think math competitions and stuff like that are fun,, call me a nerd but I enjoy it. I like to do stuff like that...:dunno:

seer_claw
02-01-2005, 06:47 PM
I find that I really don't care all that much about high school now. At the time it was a big deal because it was my life. I know that looking back now graduating doesn't really seem that much and for the most part don't contact many of the people that I was friends with back then.

At the time it was really good fun and I have some good as well as bad memories of it. I would not want to go back and change anything because those things that I did make me who I am.

FiveFreshFish
02-01-2005, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by Def_3
with my high school degree

Your high school grants degrees? :rofl:

SmAcKpOo
02-01-2005, 08:13 PM
i find that anti conservative statement pretty offensive. this isnt a political discussion

GTS Jeff
02-01-2005, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by Singel
I'm definately not proud of my HS diploma, i could care less, but for many, many people it is something to be proud of. It is nice of you to condescend to someone who comes from a broken home, has to work long hours during high school to feed himself, and try to find time and energy to study a bit because he just wasn't blessed with the same brights as many others. Don't devalue that accomplishment for someone who was expected to be on the street or in jail before walking across the stage.

And you're taking something for granted that most people in the world aren't given the right to...free education. And I don't think you understand the importance of education towards your becoming a functioning member of society. Every little trigonometric ratio and literary device my see insignificant individually (and they probly are) but the culmination of your twelve years of education are really what have prepared you for real life, and allowed you to learn once you're out there on your own.

Compare where someone who drops out immediately at 16 will be @ age 20 vs. if that same person had graduated HS at age 20. I'm sure the graduate is going to be far ahead, with atleast a semi decent job and warm place to live while while the same dropout will be living paycheque to paycheque from MacDonald's (He's assistant weekend manager by now) living in a cheap dingy apartment.

From reading these boards I can now see where a lot of the anti teacher sentiment in society comes from, along with anti police, etc.

Singel, you are not on topic. You keep trying to lure me into a discussion on the value on education, which is not what this thread is about. This thread is about how high school graduation is nothing to be proud of. As someone who will likely spend 10 years in post-secondary, I'm well aware of the value of education, but that's not what we're talking about here. Don't you worry, I'll have a thread for that topic one day.

A high school diploma, at best, is a certificate entitling you to interact with the society we live in. No matter what home you come from, the value of the diploma doesn't change. All it says is, "yes I can do something that everyone else can do."

Originally posted by SmAcKpOo
high school gives u a kick in the right direction. i believe the rest comes from being street smart and practical

Yes, high school does point one in the right direction, but it also points EVERYONE in the right direction. Since everyone else has it, there's no pride involved anymore.

ExtremeSi
02-01-2005, 08:54 PM
I'm curious, do you think High School should be a lot harder to make the diploma more valuable Jeff?
I guess what I'm saying is: I agree, but what's your point?

gpomp
02-01-2005, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by GTS Jeff
EVERYONE gets through it, so graduating is not a big accomplishment at all.
can't you say the same for post secondary?

GTS Jeff
02-01-2005, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by ExtremeSi
I'm curious, do you think High School should be a lot harder to make the diploma more valuable Jeff?
I guess what I'm saying is: I agree, but what's your point?
Every time a new curriculum comes out, public education becomes a bit harder, but it doesn't really change graduation rates, so I don't think the diploma would be any more valuable with more advanced material.

Originally posted by gpomp

can't you say the same for post secondary?
Nope. According to Stats Canada, only a quarter of the Canadian population possesses a University degree.

FiveFreshFish
02-01-2005, 09:20 PM
High school is a big deal for those 17-year-olds who have yet to graduate. Most at that age have not achieved anything greater.

Then you look back and it wasn't such a big thing after all.

max_boost
02-01-2005, 10:29 PM
For most people, that's the highest level of education they will get. Of course that is changing since there is such an emphasis on a University level degree.

I presume students study hard so they can get good grades, and then get into better schools, programs etc.

I'm proud that I got through high school and I did frame my diploma. :rofl: I was so happy when I walked acrossed that stage, it marked the most significant accomplishment up to that point in my life.

Singel
02-01-2005, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by SmAcKpOo
i find that anti conservative statement pretty offensive. this isnt a political discussion

:werd: It seems conservative supporters are against freedom of speech (against their views anyway) jk thats for another thread.


Originally posted by GTS Jeff


Singel, you are not on topic. You keep trying to lure me into a discussion on the value on education, which is not what this thread is about. This thread is about how high school graduation is nothing to be proud of. As someone who will likely spend 10 years in post-secondary, I'm well aware of the value of education, but that's not what we're talking about here. Don't you worry, I'll have a thread for that topic one day.

A high school diploma, at best, is a certificate entitling you to interact with the society we live in. No matter what home you come from, the value of the diploma doesn't change. All it says is, &quot;yes I can do something that everyone else can do.&quot;


Yes, high school does point one in the right direction, but it also points EVERYONE in the right direction. Since everyone else has it, there's no pride involved anymore.

The high school diploma is a symbol (to most people anyway) of their K-12 education, I hardly see how they aren't related. It's not something everything can do, it would seem something you didn't gain in HS that I certainly did was a wider view of different people in our society (were u private school maybe? :dunno:) It isn't just a bump in the road for some people, it can be a huge obstacle for some, and u dont have any right to be condescending to them because school came naturally for u.


Originally posted by GTS Jeff

Every time a new curriculum comes out, public education becomes a bit harder, but it doesn't really change graduation rates, so I don't think the diploma would be any more valuable with more advanced material.

Nope. According to Stats Canada, only a quarter of the Canadian population possesses a University degree.

So things are more valuable just because not everyone is able to get it? Personally, health, family, love, friends, etc. we're all things I value most, and are all free and available to society. You can't decide the value of anything for other people, or society as a whole.

GTS Jeff
02-01-2005, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by Singel
The high school diploma is a symbol (to most people anyway) of their K-12 education, I hardly see how they aren't related. It's not something everything can do, it would seem something you didn't gain in HS that I certainly did was a wider view of different people in our society (were u private school maybe? :dunno:) It isn't just a bump in the road for some people, it can be a huge obstacle for some, and u dont have any right to be condescending to them because school came naturally for u. I graduated out of a private school, but spent most of my K-12 in public school, so I certainly am not the sheltered fool you are making me out to be. Your assumption that high school is a huge obstacle for many people is false. The dropout rate of Canadian high schools is less than 10% according to Stats Canada. I am basing my argument on facts and nowhere am I being condescending either.


Originally posted by Singel
So things are more valuable just because not everyone is able to get it? Personally, health, family, love, friends, etc. we're all things I value most, and are all free and available to society. You can't decide the value of anything for other people, or society as a whole.

Again, STOP trying to derail this discussion. I'm saying that a diploma is worthless when everyone else has one. This has nothing to do with family or love. Stay on topic.

Everyone posting in this thread, with the exception of you, is on-topic and has not yet stooped to subtle personal attacks. Now if you can't help yourself from making petty stabs at me, then could you at least please post in a more on-topic manner?

GTS Jeff
02-01-2005, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by max_boost
I'm proud that I got through high school and I did frame my diploma. :rofl: I was so happy when I walked acrossed that stage, it marked the most significant accomplishment up to that point in my life. If you value education to the extent of framing your high school diploma, why not go for a degree?

Singel
02-02-2005, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by GTS Jeff
I graduated out of a private school, but spent most of my K-12 in public school, so I certainly am not the sheltered fool you are making me out to be. Your assumption that high school is a huge obstacle for many people is false. The dropout rate of Canadian high schools is less than 10% according to Stats Canada. I am basing my argument on facts and nowhere am I being condescending either.

Again, STOP trying to derail this discussion. I'm saying that a diploma is worthless when everyone else has one. This has nothing to do with family or love. Stay on topic.

Everyone posting in this thread, with the exception of you, is on-topic and has not yet stooped to subtle personal attacks. Now if you can't help yourself from making petty stabs at me, then could you at least please post in a more on-topic manner?

How am I off topic? I said something isn't worthless just because everyone has it, and gave a parallel example. If that's the way you feel its fine, but express it as your opinion rather than a fact that has to be true for everyone. Clearly not everyone has a diploma, 10% is a a significant portion of the population IMO. And not everyone who doesn't drop out gets their diploma, I know a lot more than 10% of my grade didn't, I think it was atleast a quarter who didn't get their diplomas, they don't hand them out like candy just because you showed up occasionally. Disregarding a large portion of society when you say "Everyone" seems a little condescending IMO:dunno:

My attacks must have been really subtle then cause I don't even know what you're talking about...the private school thing just explains why you ignored the high number of non dropouts who don't graduate. I'm assuming more like ~95% of you're class graduated which isn't a good reflection of most schools.

All I'm saying is not everyone has a diploma, and even if they did it wouldn't make it any more worthless to me. It's like someone's wedding ring, millions of other couples have them but it doesn't make it any less important, the ring represents the time and love with your spouse, just like the diploma represents the time and knowledge you gained in school. I'm sure you'll say that's off topic even though it's a similar situation :rolleyes: Examples will be rejected as off topic though, so I checked Stats Canada for a more relevant stat: only about 77% of Canadians graduate. In Alberta it's more like 65% (Grad Rates (http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/031118/d031118d.htm) That's way lower than all the other provinces (not territories) but I thought our education system was among the best in the country, I guess those cuts didn't hurt us at all <off topic/sarcasm>

7thgenvic
02-02-2005, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by GTS Jeff
I graduated out of a private school, but spent most of my K-12 in public school, so I certainly am not the sheltered fool you are making me out to be. Your assumption that high school is a huge obstacle for many people is false. The dropout rate of Canadian high schools is less than 10% according to Stats Canada. I am basing my argument on facts and nowhere am I being condescending either.



Again, STOP trying to derail this discussion. I'm saying that a diploma is worthless when everyone else has one. This has nothing to do with family or love. Stay on topic.

Everyone posting in this thread, with the exception of you, is on-topic and has not yet stooped to subtle personal attacks. Now if you can't help yourself from making petty stabs at me, then could you at least please post in a more on-topic manner?

wow this topic has gone off topic! hahah good thread jeff!
KIDDING
Now to throw us back on topic! having that piece of paper is pretty usless, because sure you can have a 50% average and still graduate, so i do agree with you that highschool diplomas can be pointless if you do nothing with it and think that your all important for graduating what everyone else can do!
I still believe that high school produces work ethics that will continue on!
and people are saying

"well i know this person who didn't graduate and now their the CEO of a company"
these days are different! Good luck, good fucking luck getting a 6 figure salary or doing well for yourself in todays competitive job market!

I hope i didn't go to far off topic!

MerfBall
02-02-2005, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by GTS Jeff

Again, STOP trying to derail this discussion. I'm saying that a diploma is worthless when everyone else has one. This has nothing to do with family or love. Stay on topic.

Everyone posting in this thread, with the exception of you, is on-topic and has not yet stooped to subtle personal attacks. Now if you can't help yourself from making petty stabs at me, then could you at least please post in a more on-topic manner?

Singel likes to argue for the sake of arguing he's the type that just likes to hear himself talk (I guess in this case read his own post). I would just ignore his posts altogether.


Originally posted by max_boost
For most people, that's the highest level of education they will get. Of course that is changing since there is such an emphasis on a University level degree.

Actually there has always been a huge emphasis on University degrees, it's just that your just noticing it now because you've gotten to the age where it is of concern to you and most prevalent topic in most discussion.


Originally posted by FiveFreshFish


Your high school grants degrees? :rofl:

Actually if you mean high school diploma, there are many degrees at U of C that don't require you to have a high school diploma to enter and graduate. You need what 100 credits to get your diploma? While many programs only look at some or all of your grades in your core subjects (i.e. english, social, math, etc.), so you could have 95% average in your core subjects, and 99 credits (no diploma) and still enter university and get your degree.

People make a big deal out of high school grad not because of the piece of paper, but because it is the biggest party for the past 3 years. Again it's all about the party, why else are people so concerned about dressing up, renting limos, etc. etc. and then there's the infamous "Aftergrad"...

Def_3
02-02-2005, 10:23 AM
You're proving my point, not yours, with this statement. All those people under you also have high school. Look how far it got them! As you've proven, it's your resourcefulness that got you ahead of them, NOT your high school background, because those people, despite their superior education which goes further than high school, are still working under you.

good point, but without highschool I dont think I would be where I am, yet I am in this position WITHOUT my degree yet.... so I could say the same about university! But of course I dont think it is useless or a waste of time, but thats just my opinion, they are essential

abyss
02-02-2005, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by max_boost
For most people, that's the highest level of education they will get. Of course that is changing since there is such an emphasis on a University level degree.

I presume students study hard so they can get good grades, and then get into better schools, programs etc.

I'm proud that I got through high school and I did frame my diploma. :rofl: I was so happy when I walked acrossed that stage, it marked the most significant accomplishment up to that point in my life.

This was exactly how I felt. Why not be proud of something that you've finally finished after 13 years (providing you took kindergarten too) Finishing high school was a turning point in my life, it was strange to wake up the day after the last day of grade 12 and realize that I didn't have to go back into that building to learn anymore.

NickGT
02-02-2005, 10:50 AM
I wouldn't get excited over school period - post secondary or or high school. Unless you come out as a doctor, engineer or some other high ranking profession. That is worthy imo.

The time to get excited is if you land that blingin job thanks to your education. Until then, there isn't much to celebrate. It's just really stressful and costs an assload of money. :nut:

Singel
02-02-2005, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by MerfBall


Singel likes to argue for the sake of arguing he's the type that just likes to hear himself talk (I guess in this case read his own post). I would just ignore his posts altogether.


I love to argue, its great practice and expands your thought process and develops your views of the world. Maybe he should try and refute my argument instead of just saying its "off topic".

Melinda
02-02-2005, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by NickGT
I wouldn't get excited over school period - post secondary or or high school. Unless you come out as a doctor, engineer or some other high ranking profession. That is worthy imo.

So a profession as a doctor, lawyer or some other prestigious career are the only things to be proud of? I went to post secondary and graduated with my journalism degree. I'm DAMN proud of that, I worked my ass off to do well and learn everything I did.

Am I on the staff for some killer magazine or newspaper? No. I realize that I'm not some doctor or lawyer, but I do have my own business that is starting to do very well for me and I am proud of that. High school showed me what I should be doing with my life. My teachers showed me that this is where I excelled and it was what I was I was meant to do. Post secondary taught me the tools I needed to make it there, and learning those tools took alot of time and hard work...too much work for me to just toss of as 'no big deal'.

I help people in my own way through my career. People don't just need doctors and lawyers, they need all sorts of professionals, and THAT makes any employed person important, because they are needed in society. Nine times out of ten though, high school/post secondary graduates will be able to get a few more open doors and options for their future to make the most of their potential. And THAT makes school a big deal.

NickGT
02-02-2005, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Melinda

So a profession as a doctor, lawyer or some other prestigious career are the only things to be proud of? I went to post secondary and graduated with my journalism degree. I'm DAMN proud of that, I worked my ass off to do well and learn everything I did.

Am I on the staff for some killer magazine or newspaper? No. I realize that I'm not some doctor or lawyer, but I do have my own business that is starting to do very well for me and I am proud of that. High school showed me what I should be doing with my life. My teachers showed me that this is where I excelled and it was what I was I was meant to do. Post secondary taught me the tools I needed to make it there, and learning those tools took alot of time and hard work...too much work for me to just toss of as 'no big deal'.

I help people in my own way through my career. People don't just need doctors and lawyers, they need all sorts of professionals, and THAT makes any employed person important, because they are needed in society. Nine times out of ten though, high school/post secondary graduates will be able to get a few more open doors and options for their future to make the most of their potential. And THAT makes school a big deal.

Hey I'm no doctor or anything either, I could care less. But I can appreciate the fact that it's alot more diffcult to obtain.

I like what I do and that's all that matters. If you're proud of yourself I'm glad. I never asked you to change your opinion to mine.

Yes it opens doors, I don't dispute that. But I've heard to many horror stories where graduates come out no better off than they went in - smarter, but still broke. Hell I'm one of those people. That's the problem. So until the education has paid off (literally), its nothing to get excited about. Simply being smarter doesn't pay the bills - you need the job to go with it.

rage2
02-02-2005, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by MerfBall
Actually if you mean high school diploma, there are many degrees at U of C that don't require you to have a high school diploma to enter and graduate. You need what 100 credits to get your diploma? While many programs only look at some or all of your grades in your core subjects (i.e. english, social, math, etc.), so you could have 95% average in your core subjects, and 99 credits (no diploma) and still enter university and get your degree.
Actually, U of C doesn't require a high school diploma to get into any faculty. Just need the required courses and of course grades to go with it. This "loophole" is put into place for foreign visa students, because they will never get 100 credits if they show up past grade 11, unless they do an extra year or 2 of high school. It applies to everyone, so if you're smart, you can finish your required courses in high school by grade 11 and enter university a year early.

For me, I took 1/2 year off in grade 12 and worked as a full time bartender. Didn't get my high school diploma, but still able to get into U of C just fine.

Melinda
02-02-2005, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by NickGT
Yes it opens doors, I don't dispute that. But I've heard to many horror stories where graduates come out no better off than they went in - smarter, but still broke. Hell I'm one of those people. That's the problem. So until the education has paid off (literally), its nothing to get excited about. Simply being smarter doesn't pay the bills - you need the job to go with it.
To some extent, I completely agree with you. But paying bills isn't the only benifit to a higher education, it has alot more purpose than just getting a killer job.

MerfBall
02-02-2005, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Melinda

To some extent, I completely agree with you. But paying bills isn't the only benifit to a higher education, it has alot more purpose than just getting a killer job.

I don't know about that... paying 20k + for a degree had better be going for a killer job, coz I could think of alot better ways to spend that money...

finboy
02-02-2005, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by MerfBall


I don't know about that... paying 20k + for a degree had better be going for a killer job, coz I could think of alot better ways to spend that money...

:werd:

abyss
02-02-2005, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by MerfBall


I don't know about that... paying 20k + for a degree had better be going for a killer job, coz I could think of alot better ways to spend that money...

If all you're going for is a job that pays really well, and not something you're interested in or want to learn about, why not just spend $20 grand on plastic surgery and a personal trainer and become a stripper, they make a lot of money too....

finboy
02-02-2005, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by abyss


If all you're going for is a job that pays really well, and not something you're interested in or want to learn about, why not just spend $20 grand on plastic surgery and a personal trainer and become a stripper, they make a lot of money too....

like professional athletes, strippers have a very short shelf life, so in the end it wouldn't pay that well afterall :rofl:

abyss
02-02-2005, 01:15 PM
I'm sure if you averaged it out, it would still count as a well paying job. Do you think after someone gets too old to play football they have to spend the rest of their life as a wallmart greeter? I don't think so.......

GTS Jeff
02-02-2005, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by abyss


This was exactly how I felt. Why not be proud of something that you've finally finished after 13 years (providing you took kindergarten too) Finishing high school was a turning point in my life, it was strange to wake up the day after the last day of grade 12 and realize that I didn't have to go back into that building to learn anymore.

Sure your life changes after high school, but that's a given. You did nothing to effect that change. It would have happened anyways.

I almost felt ashamed at my graduation ceremony. I don't think I (or anyone else) did anything special to deserve a whole ceremony. What did we do? Homework and some studying for tests? All we had to do was meet minimum expectations and we got a whole event dedicated to us. It's like getting an award for breathing air. What a waste!

I suppose the only real purpose of high school grad is that it is incentive for the people who need an extra reason to become somewhat educated, since societal contribution isn't enough motivation for them.

Originally posted by Singel


I love to argue, its great practice and expands your thought process and develops your views of the world. Maybe he should try and refute my argument instead of just saying its &quot;off topic&quot;. Yet another off topic post.

abyss
02-02-2005, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by GTS Jeff


Sure your life changes after high school, but that's a given. You did nothing to effect that change. It would have happened anyways.

I almost felt ashamed at my graduation ceremony. I don't think I (or anyone else) did anything special to deserve a whole ceremony. What did we do? Homework and some studying for tests? All we had to do was meet minimum expectations and we got a whole event dedicated to us. It's like getting an award for breathing air. What a waste!

I suppose the only real purpose of high school grad is that it is incentive for the people who need an extra reason to become somewhat educated, since societal contribution isn't enough motivation for them.

Comparing graduating high school to breathing air is hardly a worthy comaprison. The fact that you managed to make it to school almost every day, or at least the important days like tests, means something, finishing your homework means something. As far as meeting minimum expectations goes, the expectations must not be all that minimum or else every 5 year old, or common house pet would be able to graduate high school. You need to know how to read and write and be able to do math and simple science experiments to graduate. It may not seem like much of an accomplishment to you because you learned these things quicker and more easily than others. However, I still consider it to be an accomplishment as it is not guaranteed to anyone, it still requires work.

Melinda
02-02-2005, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by abyss


Comparing graduating high school to breathing air is hardly a worthy comaprison. The fact that you managed to make it to school almost every day, or at least the important days like tests, means something, finishing your homework means something. As far as meeting minimum expectations goes, the expectations must not be all that minimum or else every 5 year old, or common house pet would be able to graduate high school. You need to know how to read and write and be able to do math and simple science experiments to graduate. It may not seem like much of an accomplishment to you because you learned these things quicker and more easily than others. However, I still consider it to be an accomplishment as it is not guaranteed to anyone, it still requires work.
:thumbsup: Well said!

GTS Jeff
02-02-2005, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by abyss


Comparing graduating high school to breathing air is hardly a worthy comaprison. The fact that you managed to make it to school almost every day, or at least the important days like tests, means something, finishing your homework means something. As far as meeting minimum expectations goes, the expectations must not be all that minimum or else every 5 year old, or common house pet would be able to graduate high school. You need to know how to read and write and be able to do math and simple science experiments to graduate. It may not seem like much of an accomplishment to you because you learned these things quicker and more easily than others. However, I still consider it to be an accomplishment as it is not guaranteed to anyone, it still requires work. The fact that I made it to school every day is expected, not exceptional, and these expectations are imposed upon every adult member of society, which excludes dogs and cats. No one deserves an award for being literate or being able to do simple math. The fact that learning math and literacy requires work doesn't make it any more valuable either, because it is work that is expected of everyone.

Being rewarded for meeting the minimum standards is terrible because it encourages mediocrity. I am saddened that the people of this day and age would even consider something so basic as literacy to be an accomplishment

abyss
02-02-2005, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by GTS Jeff
The fact that I made it to school every day is expected, not exceptional, and these expectations are imposed upon every adult member of society, which excludes dogs and cats. No one deserves an award for being literate or being able to do simple math. The fact that learning math and literacy requires work doesn't make it any more valuable either, because it is work that is expected of everyone.

Being rewarded for meeting the minimum standards is terrible.

You're being rewarded for meeting expectations and becoming a member of adult society. Just because the work is expected does not make it any less work, or any less valuable because the time invested to complete the work is valuable. The fact that MOST people you went to school with graduated means nothing, they deserve to be rewarded because they met expectations and put in enough work to actually pull it off, whereas the rest of the dropouts did not. Literacy will ALWAYS be an accomplishment, just because we have the resources to ensure a high literacy rate, does not mean that there are still LARGE populations of the world that are illiterate.

camby
02-02-2005, 03:06 PM
I don't think graduating high school is simply meeting the minimum requirements. People do struggle with the stuff that is taught. People do learn new things also. Not everyone is really good at simple math or reading. Many people in other parts of the world cannot do simple math or read simple paragraphs. Also graduating high school sorta represents everything someone has accomplished for the past 12 years.

There are some high school classes which are required to go to post secondary. The relevance of higher learning towards getting a good job can be debated. But for those who want to go on place a lot of priority on high school. You should not see the purpose of education as a way to get a good job either. A quote form Einstein, "Bear in mind that the wonderful things that you learn in your schools are the work of many generations. All this is put into your hands as your inheritance in order that you may receive it, honor it, add to it, and one day faithfully hand it on to your children."

gpomp
02-02-2005, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by camby
You should not see the purpose of education as a way to get a good job either.
hrm, i do... :dunno:

unless you take some bs degree like philosophy, i think it is safe to say most ppl are going to school to get a better job. :thumbsup:

abyss
02-02-2005, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by gpomp

hrm, i do... :dunno:

unless you take some bs degree like philosophy, i think it is safe to say most ppl are going to school to get a better job. :thumbsup:

I think that was reference to high school, which most people don't see as providing them with a better job.

lint
02-02-2005, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by GTS Jeff
The fact that I made it to school every day is expected, not exceptional, and these expectations are imposed upon every adult member of society, which excludes dogs and cats. No one deserves an award for being literate or being able to do simple math. The fact that learning math and literacy requires work doesn't make it any more valuable either, because it is work that is expected of everyone.

Being rewarded for meeting the minimum standards is terrible because it encourages mediocrity. I am saddened that the people of this day and age would even consider something so basic as literacy to be an accomplishment

You are personifying your own expectations onto the general population as a whole. Sure, students are expected to attend every class of every day. How many do? If you missed a single class or a single day, then by your own arguement you did not meet the minimum standards.

I think you're also missing the point that not everyone learns the same way as you do, or at the same speed, or with the same comprehension. People are good at and excel at different things, and for many, school isn't it. They can study and study and not make the grade. Are the stupid? In your eyes.

What about students that need to work while they go to school, and aren't able to spend the same amount of time studying as you did. There are other struggles that they have to over come. For them, all they care about is passing. An accomplishment? Not to you.


Originally posted by GTS Jeff
If you value education to the extent of framing your high school diploma, why not go for a degree?

I recall that you're trying to get into dentistry. If you get there, I hope you're going to go for oral surgeon, because in the world of dentistry, DDS is the equivalent to a HS diploma.

max_boost
02-02-2005, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by GTS Jeff
If you value education to the extent of framing your high school diploma, why not go for a degree? I am working towards my degree, in Business Administration through Athabasca University (correspondence). That will take time though, it's more of a long term personal goal of mine. I want to set standards for my kids and be the first one in my family to graduate with a University level education (my sister will probably beat me to it). As of right now, an education doesn't fit into my plans. I've worked hard, and I've been lucky and I know that. I have a great job, this is my opportunity, and it pays amazing, enough said :D If things didn't work out this way, I would be just like 90% of the other students out there. Working hard, paying for an expensive education, and hoping to land a good job in the market.

BTW, I am 2/3 way to the degree, so I am not that far away, with decent grades too 3.27GPA. :D

bksze
02-02-2005, 04:35 PM
Although I agree with the point that high school is nothing to be proud of. I still think people should be allowed to be proud of whatever they want. Everybody has a different perspective on life and certainly places more value on others.

using this thread as an example:

I'm sure Jeff is quite proud of his ae86, however to someone with a mercedes, it's nothing but a ~15 year old piece of junk

I'm sure most of you are proud of your B.Comm, B.Eng, B.SC, but to buddy with a masters or a phd, it may be nothing to be proud of either





live and let live!!!

MerfBall
02-02-2005, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by abyss


If all you're going for is a job that pays really well, and not something you're interested in or want to learn about, why not just spend $20 grand on plastic surgery and a personal trainer and become a stripper, they make a lot of money too....

Well I don't think 20k, would get you very far and I don't think anyone would want to see me strip (even with cosmetic surgery and personal trainer).

My point is that if you are going to school for the sole purpose of learning something out of your own interest, you could do that with a buspass at your local Chapters daily, rather than spending 20k + on tuition.

You're right that you should be taking a degree that you are interested in, but at the very least, I sure hope that whatever you are taking and spending the next 4-5 years and 20k+ in tuition (that's if your living at home double to triple that if you don't) that you are aiming for a job in that field. Otherwise why do it??? So you can be more educated, 20k + in debt, but not be employed in your field of interest for the next 42 years (assuming that you graduate at 23 and retire at 65) :dunno: :dunno:

Chim
02-02-2005, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by GTS Jeff


Being rewarded for meeting the minimum standards is terrible because it encourages mediocrity. I am saddened that the people of this day and age would even consider something so basic as literacy to be an accomplishment

Bingo.

Down in the States, even the kids that get last place during Sports Day still receive a "blue medal". What kind of message does that deliver to the children? That being last place is acceptable, and in fact encouraged?

My parents have always set the bar way high for me, and now my own expectations of myself are just as high. Recently I got a marketing award that placed me among the best, and I barely even got a "good job" for it. Whether I'll be successful in life is yet to be seen, but it's not something I can achieve if my self expectations are "get a high school degree and live happily ever after"

I think the point Jeff is trying to make is that High School Graduation is ceremonized so much that it makes it seem like the highest point someone will ever reach in their lives. That in itself is where I see the problem....

GTS Jeff
02-02-2005, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by lint


You are personifying your own expectations onto the general population as a whole... My expectations? You think that I'd be dumb enough to base my argument on personal opinions? It's the law to attend school until you're 16. To graduate means you've got to spend another 2 years doing what you've already done for 10 years. It's not a big accomplishment to do what you're being forced to do.

I think that a valedictorian deserves recognition. But some chump that just did what he was pretty much forced to do? Not a chance.

You
Originally posted by lint
I recall that you're trying to get into dentistry. If you get there, I hope you're going to go for oral surgeon, because in the world of dentistry, DDS is the equivalent to a HS diploma.

How can you compare a diploma to a doctorate? A diploma is the minimum expectation that society places upon an individual. In contrast, a doctorate is obtained through personal motivation to serve society, which is the total opposite of a diploma.


Originally posted by abyss


You're being rewarded for meeting expectations and becoming a member of adult society. Just because the work is expected does not make it any less work, or any less valuable because the time invested to complete the work is valuable. The fact that MOST people you went to school with graduated means nothing, they deserve to be rewarded because they met expectations and put in enough work to actually pull it off, whereas the rest of the dropouts did not. Literacy will ALWAYS be an accomplishment, just because we have the resources to ensure a high literacy rate, does not mean that there are still LARGE populations of the world that are illiterate. So do you think that prisoners should be rewarded for serving their term in jail? Do you think you deserve a pat on the back for showing up to work on time? Do you believe in being congratulated for putting on your own clothes in the morning?

The answer for those rhetorical questions is NO. Being literate is nothing for a Canadian to be proud of. Maybe if you were raised in Guam or Ethiopia, then literacy is something to be proud of. But we are both talking about Canada right now, so talking about other parts of the world is useless.

GTS Jeff
02-02-2005, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by bksze
Although I agree with the point that high school is nothing to be proud of. I still think people should be allowed to be proud of whatever they want. Everybody has a different perspective on life and certainly places more value on others.

using this thread as an example:

I'm sure Jeff is quite proud of his ae86, however to someone with a mercedes, it's nothing but a ~15 year old piece of junk

I'm sure most of you are proud of your B.Comm, B.Eng, B.SC, but to buddy with a masters or a phd, it may be nothing to be proud of either





live and let live!!! You've got me there. What you say is true and I admit that I am biased by perspective. But really, if we all lived and let live, life wouldn't be very fun would it? ;)

bksze
02-02-2005, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by GTS Jeff
You've got me there. What you say is true and I admit that I am biased by perspective. But really, if we all lived and let live, life wouldn't be very fun would it? ;)

nope, that's why we fly to vegas and shoot paintballs at naked chicks!!! hahaha

abyss
02-02-2005, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by GTS Jeff

So do you think that prisoners should be rewarded for serving their term in jail? Do you think you deserve a pat on the back for showing up to work on time? Do you believe in being congratulated for putting on your own clothes in the morning?

The answer for those rhetorical questions is NO. Being literate is nothing for a Canadian to be proud of. Maybe if you were raised in Guam or Ethiopia, then literacy is something to be proud of. But we are both talking about Canada right now, so talking about other parts of the world is useless.

Prisoners are in jail because they are a threat to society, is the only reason kids go to school is because they are a threat to society? no. I think as a child you deserve a pat for showing up to school on time because a major part of schooling is to teach you how to be a functioning member of society. Along the same lines, if you never show up to work late or miss a day in 13 years for any reason, I think you should be rewarded. When you are a 3 year old child I believe you should be congratulated for putting your own clothes on in the morning, but you were talking about adult society, I don't see how finishing high school has any thing to do with the simplicity of putting your clothes on. Maybe if you're a seriously mentally handicapped adult with the capacity of a child, then ya, I guess putting your own clothes on in the morning is something to be proud of, but those also aren't the kind of people who have the skills to finish high school.

Being literate is something to be proud of as opposed to something to be taken for granted. Just because you have opportunities that others don't doesn't mean that you should appreciate any less the skills you worked towards.

rage2
02-02-2005, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by bksze
I'm sure Jeff is quite proud of his ae86, however to someone with a mercedes, it's nothing but a ~15 year old piece of junk

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
You've got me there. What you say is true and I admit that I am biased by perspective. But really, if we all lived and let live, life wouldn't be very fun would it? ;)
It's not true. I don't think it's a ~15 year old piece of junk. ;)

Singel
02-02-2005, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by GTS Jeff
I almost felt ashamed at my graduation ceremony. I don't think I (or anyone else) did anything special to deserve a whole ceremony. What did we do? Homework and some studying for tests? All we had to do was meet minimum expectations and we got a whole event dedicated to us. It's like getting an award for breathing air. What a waste!
Yet another off topic post.

I was responding to an off-topic post:rolleyes: Comparing graduation to breathing air is off topic by your reasoning:rolleyes:

It's clearly not as easy and universally achieved as you think it is since only 65% of Albertans graduate, but I see you chose to ignore that fact and continue claiming that monkeys could get a diploma.


Originally posted by lint


You are personifying your own expectations onto the general population as a whole. Sure, students are expected to attend every class of every day. How many do? If you missed a single class or a single day, then by your own arguement you did not meet the minimum standards.

I think you're also missing the point that not everyone learns the same way as you do, or at the same speed, or with the same comprehension. People are good at and excel at different things, and for many, school isn't it. They can study and study and not make the grade. Are the stupid? In your eyes.

What about students that need to work while they go to school, and aren't able to spend the same amount of time studying as you did. There are other struggles that they have to over come. For them, all they care about is passing. An accomplishment? Not to you.


I recall that you're trying to get into dentistry. If you get there, I hope you're going to go for oral surgeon, because in the world of dentistry, DDS is the equivalent to a HS diploma.

:werd:


Originally posted by abyss


Being literate is something to be proud of as opposed to something to be taken for granted. Just because you have opportunities that others don't doesn't mean that you should appreciate any less the skills you worked towards.


:werd: Why not be proud of it anyway? I still don't really understand the argument that it isn't special because everyone has one (even though only 65% do). There are thousands of other dentists in the world, but only a select number of oral surgeons. You're pathetic if you're only a dentist:rolleyes:

I'll go tell my handicapped friend from HS that his diploma doesn't mean anything since so many other people have them. I suppose when he walked across the stage at graduation after working his whole life to learn how to walk assistance free out of his wheelchair (which he did for the first time I believe on stage) is also meaningless since ~98% of the population is able to walk.

lint
02-02-2005, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by GTS Jeff
How can you compare a diploma to a doctorate? A diploma is the minimum expectation that society places upon an individual. In contrast, a doctorate is obtained through personal motivation to serve society, which is the total opposite of a diploma.



Now, are you using the term doctorate to mean MD/DDS, or are you using it to mean PhD? A medical doctor should not be confused with a Doctor of Philosophy, and vice versa. Doctorate and doctor are not interchangeable.
definition of doctorate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctorate)

I never compared a diploma to a doctorate. I did however, compare a diploma to a DDS, and a degree to specialization as an oral surgeon. Your question was if you're proud of a diploma, why not complete your degree? An oral surgeon could easily ask you "if you're proud of your DDS, why not complete a specialization in oral surgery?" Your reasoning is that the diploma is nothing to be proud of, but the degree is. Coincidentally, you are currently pursuing your degree. I made the analogy to demonstrate that no matter what level you're at, there is someone out there who has accomplished more, and can look down at you with distain, for feeling a sense of pride in your accomplishments.

nismodrifter
02-02-2005, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by Singel

I'll go tell my handicapped friend from HS that his diploma doesn't mean anything since so many other people have them. I suppose when he walked across the stage at graduation after working his whole life to learn how to walk assistance free out of his wheelchair (which he did for the first time I believe on stage) is also meaningless since ~98% of the population is able to walk.
Does he go to Scarlett? If so then I also know him, very nice guy!

codo
02-02-2005, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by 7thgenvic
it can be a big deal! look at it this way, if you dont' have good marks in highschool how do you expect to get into university!

and if you don't have exceptional marks how do you get into the faculty that you want?

High school if VERY important! and when you say it doesn't make you smarter than anyone else! your very wrong! sure everyone graduates for the most part! but who gets better jobs down the road! the people with better work ethics and brains or the pot heads and skaters that didn't do dick all to pass grade 12.

If i compare myself to other highschool students, i can say im better off down the road from those other graduates because i cared about my future and not cared how drunk i was at the last highschool party!


I was wondering!!!! How did you get good grades??!!!!! With all the fucking exclamation marks!!!! I bet you failed english...Hell highschool is a fucking joke i havent done any studying for math all year or any homework and am going into my final with a 68% anyone if they tried could get half decent marks.

Z_Fan
02-02-2005, 08:35 PM
I could have swore this topic was beaten to death once already. Or was it twice. Well, yeah, probably twice and this makes three.

So, here is the problem with education - and why experience is so much more valuable...and so, in a sense I have to agree with Jeff because, yes, a diploma means shit - and as always, Jeff makes very valid points that make you contemplate fundamental beliefs of what education brings to the table. Jeff is good at that. Very good in fact. It's important to have people like Jeff because his questions and theories about value of education raise good questions worthy of debate. Oh, and to be fair, I think some of the stuff he writes must be when he is high or drunk, and makes no sense whatsoever - but most of it is good!

*BUT* it doesn't mean that people need to dismiss the accomplishment a highschool diploma represents. It represents 12 (or so) years of ones early life, and in that sense, it should be looked upon as TRIPLE the accomplishment of a degree. No?

So yeah, if you framed it and hung it up, good for you...

Anyhow...

A good example that people who are NOT classified as 'smart' can get educated with the people who feel they are. I have a friend who was told in high school that he would *NEVER* get into post secondary. He goofed off in school, and eventually got the boot in Grade 12 for truancy.

So, basically he was a fuck up. Now, that being said, he finished high school through Viscount Benett many years ago. He went on get a degree...four years in U of C. (B. Commerce) He is currently very very close to getting his Masters in Business Administration. He is living proof that higher education is not necessarily a matter of been born with higher intelligence - but it certainly is a matter of determination and the will to apply yourself to the objective.

ANYHOW. The misconception here (generally in this thread) is that education creates "smarter" people and/or education is ONLY for people who are smart! Well, unfortunately that is simply not a given. While obviously you guarantee the people who took the time to get educated were at one point exposed to far more information - how much of that they retain is definitely subject of debate.

For example, I would be willing to wager that there is not a single person reading this thread who has obtained a degree (let's say over 4 years ago) that could actually PASS the same examinations in all the courses they originally took to get said degree. The individual in the above case simply laughs at the idea that he'd even have a prayer to pass. He's smart enough to know he couldn't. (And most couldn't ... though I'm sure some people will disagree) BUT - for the sake of argument, if you can't pass those same courses a mere four years after you took them and obtained the degree...then what does that degree really mean? You were determined. Certainly it doesn't mean that you fully understand and can recall and apply all the information that your degree incorporated - because, well, you can't! Begging the question of your current intelligence level - and proving it's not as spectacular as you may think simply because you possess a degree! In fact, after just four years, your degree is no longer something you could maintain - I bet the concept of re-certification to maintain degrees would certainly put shivers up the spines of those who have them! Point being, a degree merely represents something you once knew - not an accurate representation of everything that you know today. What you don't use and apply daily will be forgotten over time. It's part of life...

So, that being the case - and I assure you 95% would fail those same tests today (and you'll probably agree to that) - then how can you make a case you are any smarter - other than you have forgotten more information than the average Joe?? (This may very well be the reason for the saying "I've forgotten more information than you ever knew!") Let's face it, when you are fresh from school...you know your shit. But after a while in the work force, you'll forget that same shit because it's not used or is not applicable or simply is no longer important. Bottom line, your degree is merely a tool to get you a job. Ultimately, it is your experience that will propel you to a higher paying job, not your degree. So, you really only need that degree to open the door, unless you happen to be resourceful enough to open the door without it. Rest assured, that can be done, even if it can only be done by a far smaller percentage of individuals.

In any case, I applaud the people who go to school to get the degrees and actually consider them an accomplishment. This is exactly what it is - and you should be proud of it.

It's really a matter of choice by necessity. If you NEED education to open doors, then you should get educated. If you don't NEED education, for whatever reason, and are happy with what you have, that doesn't make you less of a person. Nor does it mean you are stupid. And, if you get educated because you enjoy it, good for you. Trust me, lots of people who have taken the time to get educated aren't happy and rich by default. It doesn't work that way, sorry.

But you shouldn't look down upon people because they decided not to get a degree. You never know, that high school dropout that you look down upon with disdain might very well have grossed $150k last year working 3 days a week, 4 hours a day. So, how SMART does that make you with your degree and an $70k a year salary job seeing you sitting in an office 5-7 days a week, getting paid squat for overtime, with $35k in student loans? Well, roughly Homer Simpson smart. DOH! Besides, don't you think if you got a degree you should be smart enough not to judge others by educational accomplishments?

I forgot who it was that mentioned the above notion of looking down at other people simply because they didn't get a degree. Come on, get with the program people - you look down on other people because their car is slower. Didn't you learn anything at school?

LUDELVR
02-02-2005, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by bksze
Although I agree with the point that high school is nothing to be proud of. I still think people should be allowed to be proud of whatever they want. Everybody has a different perspective on life and certainly places more value on others.

using this thread as an example:

I'm sure Jeff is quite proud of his ae86, however to someone with a mercedes, it's nothing but a ~15 year old piece of junk

I'm sure most of you are proud of your B.Comm, B.Eng, B.SC, but to buddy with a masters or a phd, it may be nothing to be proud of either





live and let live!!!

Yes yes, that's exactly it! You took the words right out of my mouth! Be proud of your own accomplishments! No one can tell you otherwise...although with this thread, I'm beginning to think differently! :rofl:

Really though, it's up to you what you choose to be proud of. I finished high school and it was by no means a huge accomplishment. I was happy I finished but again, that's something for an individual to decide if it is worthy of acclaim or not.

And I guess another example is the person that someone is involved with. You may think that she's the shit, while others will share your sentiments...but in a different light!

It all boils down to what you value and what you feel is worthy of acclamation.:thumbsup:

gpomp
02-02-2005, 08:48 PM
school is for losers :thumbsdow

Singel
02-02-2005, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by nismodrifter

Does he go to Scarlett? If so then I also know him, very nice guy!

Nope, Central. But that just goes to show that it isn't a rare/isolated event, it happens several times at each shcool every year (they're not all visible handicaps) and it is certainly an achievement to be celebrated

GTS Jeff
02-02-2005, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by abyss
Being literate is something to be proud of as opposed to something to be taken for granted. Just because you have opportunities that others don't doesn't mean that you should appreciate any less the skills you worked towards.

Alright, I'll try to explain this with another angle. Literacy is important and its definitely invaluable to everyone. Do we both agree on that? Now let's talk about how literacy is obtained. There are two parties involved in learning: 1. the student 2. the teacher. The student is responsible for understanding, interpreting, retaining, then later using his/her skills with reading and writing. The teacher is responsible for providing the tools, experience, advice, and help that a student needs to do all of the above. Still with me? In Canada (and not necessarily in other parts of the world,) the student only assumes a small role in achieving literacy because the teaching is so strong and effective. The government legislates laws requiring a student to attend classes and the government provides funding for the teachers to teach proper english over a period of twelve years. Extra help is easily accessible wherever you look. All the student needs to do is show up in class and stay awake. The "teacher," which encompasses the actual teacher, the government, and all associated support are doing 90% of the work for the student. The student barely needs to lift a finger. Now do you still believe that someone should be rewarded for lifting a finger?

Originally posted by lint



Now, are you using the term doctorate to mean MD/DDS, or are you using it to mean PhD? A medical doctor should not be confused with a Doctor of Philosophy, and vice versa. Doctorate and doctor are not interchangeable.
definition of doctorate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctorate)

I never compared a diploma to a doctorate. I did however, compare a diploma to a DDS, and a degree to specialization as an oral surgeon. Your question was if you're proud of a diploma, why not complete your degree? An oral surgeon could easily ask you &quot;if you're proud of your DDS, why not complete a specialization in oral surgery?&quot; Your reasoning is that the diploma is nothing to be proud of, but the degree is. Coincidentally, you are currently pursuing your degree. I made the analogy to demonstrate that no matter what level you're at, there is someone out there who has accomplished more, and can look down at you with distain, for feeling a sense of pride in your accomplishments.

You are arguing semantics. A lot of dental schools refer to their standard 4 year program as a doctorate. Do a search on Google.

Anyway, I'm not saying that a high school diploma is worthless when compared to something higher, I'm saying it's worthless because you do nothing significant to deserve it. A degree means more because you have to work harder for it, not because it comes after a diploma.

GTS Jeff
02-02-2005, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by max_boost
I am working towards my degree, in Business Administration through Athabasca University (correspondence). That will take time though, it's more of a long term personal goal of mine. I want to set standards for my kids and be the first one in my family to graduate with a University level education (my sister will probably beat me to it).

BTW, I am 2/3 way to the degree, so I am not that far away, with decent grades too 3.27GPA. :D

:thumbsup: Choosing to educate yourself for the right reasons is more commendable than graduating out of high school. Congrats to you! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Khyron
02-02-2005, 10:37 PM
My diploma is framed, along with my degree. But they represent stages or checkpoints, as opposed to something I would brag about. They're in my computer room, not the front entrance - don't laugh, I've seen it done.

Getting a basic general diploma with a 50% average was the bare minimum. Instead, I got an advanced with a higher average. So for me it was an achievement. Maybe not that significant to you, but when everyone thinks you'll fail, a sucess is far sweeter.

For me, school was more about socializing - learning how to relate and deal with people, while learning at the same time. I can say now that I was absolutely terrible at it, and high school was a good chance to make a lot of my mistakes. But finishing it was like achieving any goal; it felt good.

Do you mock a handicapped person when they win a medal, knowing you could beat them? Of course not. To you it's not that big a deal, but to others it is.

That said, if the school board called me up tomorrow and said they made a mistake and I needed 1 more credit to get my diploma, I certainly wouldn't bother. But what's interesting is that I wouldn't bother if it was for my degree either.

Khyron

MerfBall
02-03-2005, 10:07 AM
This topic has gotten off topic slightly and people are reading into it more than necessary. I don't think Jeff is suggesting school is useless (he is enrolled full time at U of A after all). He's suggesting that people make a bigger deal out of highschool grad, which is true for the most part.

Topic in hand, people on average do make a bigger deal out of highschool grad than it really is and you'll notice this when you graduate from University the distinct difference between the two. Hell most people who graduate from university dread the ceremony, as proud as it might be to get your bachelor's sitting there hearing 700 names and which degrees they receieved is :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

abyss
02-03-2005, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by GTS Jeff


Alright, I'll try to explain this with another angle. Literacy is important and its definitely invaluable to everyone. Do we both agree on that? Now let's talk about how literacy is obtained. There are two parties involved in learning: 1. the student 2. the teacher. The student is responsible for understanding, interpreting, retaining, then later using his/her skills with reading and writing. The teacher is responsible for providing the tools, experience, advice, and help that a student needs to do all of the above. Still with me? In Canada (and not necessarily in other parts of the world,) the student only assumes a small role in achieving literacy because the teaching is so strong and effective. The government legislates laws requiring a student to attend classes and the government provides funding for the teachers to teach proper english over a period of twelve years. Extra help is easily accessible wherever you look. All the student needs to do is show up in class and stay awake. The &quot;teacher,&quot; which encompasses the actual teacher, the government, and all associated support are doing 90% of the work for the student. The student barely needs to lift a finger. Now do you still believe that someone should be rewarded for lifting a finger?


I don't believe I said anybody that is competent should be rewarded for being literate, especially in a country like Canada where we are provided with so much opportunity. You misunderstood my argument, I am arguing that you should be proud of something that you put 12 or 13 years of your life into completing, irregardless of how much more or less work you had to put into it than someone else. If it was less work for you than me and you would like to take it all for granted, then by all means, that is your perogative. My opinion is that your education is one of the few things that cannot ever be taken away from you or lost and as such it should be not taken for granted and you should more than be proud of those 12 years of commitment.

MerfBall
02-03-2005, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by abyss

I am arguing that you should be proud of something that you put 12 or 13 years of your life into completing, irregardless of how much more or less work you had to put into it than someone else. If it was less work for you than me and you would like to take it all for granted, then by all means, that is your perogative. My opinion is that your education is one of the few things that cannot ever be taken away from you or lost and as such it should be not taken for granted and you should more than be proud of those 12 years of commitment.

K-12 is nothing to be proud of for the simple fact that you have no choice in the matter, you have to go to school, it is societal norm and frankly looked down upon if you don't put your kids in school so every parent sends their kids to school. Again kids are made to go to school.

While many university students are pressured into going, the vast majority of students are there on their own accord and has chosen that path and have chosen their field of interest, they choose their own courses to take, make up their own schedules. No one forces them to go to class, you go on your own.

And mental and learning disabilities aside, K-12 is not difficult, they are the basics, the difference between people who do well in school K-12 is the difference in people's work ethics. Some people choose to work for their marks and some choose to slack and get lower grades or don't get their diploma.

abyss
02-03-2005, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by MerfBall


K-12 is nothing to be proud of for the simple fact that you have no choice in the matter, you have to go to school, it is societal norm and frankly looked down upon if you don't put your kids in school so every parent sends their kids to school. Again kids are made to go to school.

While many university students are pressured into going, the vast majority of students are there on their own accord and has chosen that path and have chosen their field of interest, they choose their own courses to take, make up their own schedules. No one forces them to go to class, you go on your own.

And mental and learning disabilities aside, K-12 is not difficult, they are the basics, the difference between people who do well in school K-12 is the difference in people's work ethics. Some people choose to work for their marks and some choose to slack and get lower grades or don't get their diploma.

You were never FORCED to go to school, were you handcuffed, bound or gagged, or retrained in ANY way that prevented you from leaving the school? NO. You say it is looked down upon, indeed it is, but I hardly see that as the reason you were physically unable to exit the premises. However I see that as unrelated to the reason why you should be proud. K-12 is not difficult for MOST Canadians due to what Jeff already said about us having great teachers, I'm not arguing that.

What about parents, should parents not be proud of the fact that they raised a great child just because it's the societal norm and you're provided with so much help along the way? I assure you that I am EXTREMELY proud of my parents for raising me to be who I am today. I can only hope to do half as good of a job as they did when I have children.

Melinda
02-03-2005, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by abyss


You were never FORCED to go to school, were you handcuffed, bound or gagged, or retrained in ANY way that prevented you from leaving the school? NO. You say it is looked down upon, indeed it is, but I hardly see that as the reason you were physically unable to exit the premises. However I see that as unrelated to the reason why you should be proud. K-12 is not difficult for MOST Canadians due to what Jeff already said about us having great teachers, I'm not arguing that.

What about parents, should parents not be proud of the fact that they raised a great child just because it's the societal norm and you're provided with so much help along the way? I assure you that I am EXTREMELY proud of my parents for raising me to be who I am today. I can only hope to do half as good of a job as they did when I have children.
Don't worry girl, you aren't fighting alone, I COMPLETELY agree with what you're saying, you're just saying it all before I can! No point in saying it twice! School (weather it be elementary, jr high, high school or your university degree) are ALL things to be proud of!

abyss
02-03-2005, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Melinda

Don't worry girl, you aren't fighting alone, I COMPLETELY agree with what you're saying, you're just saying it all before I can! No point in saying it twice! School (weather it be elementary, jr high, high school or your university degree) are ALL things to be proud of!

*sighs* Thanks Mel. Everyone's intitled to their own opinion and unfortunately this seems to have turned into a debate based simply on opinion....not much hope there.....But it does really suck that most of us have learned to take so many things for granted though.

GTS Jeff
02-03-2005, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by abyss


You were never FORCED to go to school, were you handcuffed, bound or gagged, or retrained in ANY way that prevented you from leaving the school? NO.

As I've already said, it's the law to go to school until you're 16. They probably won't put you in jail for skipping, but you do get hassled with school counselors and phone calls from teachers. You ARE bound and gagged, though not a literal sense, and education is poured down your throat like hot oil.

Originally posted by abyss
But it does really suck that most of us have learned to take so many things for granted though.

Hey no need for character insults! Save those for when you're losing the argument and have nothing else to stand on.

Melinda
02-03-2005, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by abyss


*sighs* Thanks Mel. Everyone's intitled to their own opinion and unfortunately this seems to have turned into a debate based simply on opinion....not much hope there.....But it does really suck that most of us have learned to take so many things for granted though.
Yeppers, most debates on here are largely based on opinion, but most debates in this world are as well. But I think we all learn from them, no matter how heated they get. Makes us better people to argue opinions in a responsible and mature manner and other people's opinions (weather against you or on your side) usually make you think about new things you didn't think of before :)

abyss
02-03-2005, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by GTS Jeff


As I've already said, it's the law to go to school until you're 16. They probably won't put you in jail for skipping, but you do get hassled with school counselors and phone calls from teachers. You ARE bound and gagged, though not a literal sense, and education is poured down your throat like hot oil.


I think it's unfortunate that it has come to that. For children to have to be "forced" to go to school. THAT is why no one is proud of it anymore.

Singel
02-03-2005, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by GTS Jeff


As I've already said, it's the law to go to school until you're 16. They probably won't put you in jail for skipping, but you do get hassled with school counselors and phone calls from teachers. You ARE bound and gagged, though not a literal sense, and education is poured down your throat like hot oil.


Hey no need for character insults! Save those for when you're losing the argument and have nothing else to stand on.

You don't graduate at age 16. If it's so spoon fed, how do you account for the ~25% of kids who show up but don't graduate? Once again just because it wasn't hard for you, doesn't mean it was equally easy for other people of less fortunate backgrounds. You don't have to be proud of your diploma, just don't deny others that right to be and insult them or try to make them feel inferior if they are proud of what they consider to be a personal achievement.

Maybe you should reread your first post on this page before talking about insults, your condescending attitude is shining through more and more.

lint
02-03-2005, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by GTS Jeff

*snip*

You are arguing semantics. A lot of dental schools refer to their standard 4 year program as a doctorate. Do a search on Google.

Anyway, I'm not saying that a high school diploma is worthless when compared to something higher, I'm saying it's worthless because you do nothing significant to deserve it. A degree means more because you have to work harder for it, not because it comes after a diploma.

A degree means more to you because you had to work harder for it. That isn't the case with everyone. And my reasoning behind it is that in HS, you don't have much choice in what you get to study. The basics don't come in many flavours. When you get to post secondary, now you have a buffet. If you're able to find something that you truly enjoy and are good at, who's to say that you have to work harder than you did in HS?

I think you have also missed the fact that this event signifies a transition. They will either be continuing on with more schooling, maybe moving away from home for the first time. For others, it signifies their adult hood, starting work and continuing on with their lives.

This thread is more about ego than anything else. In order for you to appreciate your accomplishments, you need to put down those who haven't yet reached your level. Personally, I don't see the point in looking down on others for what they deem to be their accomplishments. But if that's what tickles your fancy, more power to you.

To all the kids celebrating their HS grads, go out, have fun, and be safe. Does nothing for me, but does nothing to me either.

GTS Jeff
02-03-2005, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by lint


A degree means more to you because you had to work harder for it. That isn't the case with everyone. And my reasoning behind it is that in HS, you don't have much choice in what you get to study. The basics don't come in many flavours. When you get to post secondary, now you have a buffet. If you're able to find something that you truly enjoy and are good at, who's to say that you have to work harder than you did in HS?

I think you have also missed the fact that this event signifies a transition. They will either be continuing on with more schooling, maybe moving away from home for the first time. For others, it signifies their adult hood, starting work and continuing on with their lives.

This thread is more about ego than anything else. In order for you to appreciate your accomplishments, you need to put down those who haven't yet reached your level. Personally, I don't see the point in looking down on others for what they deem to be their accomplishments. But if that's what tickles your fancy, more power to you.

To all the kids celebrating their HS grads, go out, have fun, and be safe. Does nothing for me, but does nothing to me either. When I said, "work harder," I didn't mean actual time spent labouring over homework, I meant that high school is forced upon everyone and is expected of everyone. People don't graduate from high school because it was a goal for them, they graduate from it because they're expected to. What I don't understand is why they would pretend they've done so much by waving their diploma around, when in fact they only did what they pretty much had to do. Any post-secondary is purely optional and pursued at one's own expense, with no outside coercion. That's more meaningful in my opinion.

As for graduation signifying a transition, sure. I guess some people would like showing off their diploma as a symbol of their transition into a different part of their life. That's something I totally neglected to think about, but I now see and agree with what you're saying. Can you also see why I'm questioning the people who pretend their diploma is an "achievement" when it obviously isn't for their situation?

This thread isn't around to stroke my ego either. If you read it, you'll see that I've never brought up my own background. Well others did, including you, but I did my best to keep things on topic. You don't need to degrade your argument to petty character insults until your argument has run out of substance.

Melinda
02-03-2005, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by GTS Jeff
Any post-secondary is purely optional and pursued at one's own expense, with no outside coercion. That's more meaningful in my opinion.

More meaningful, yes I'll agree. But any less of an accomplishment? I don't think so, every person holds their education (all levels of it) at a different significance than everyone else, some do it for themselves, others do it for their parents, others think they just have to do it for acceptance or whatever. So it's really a 100% personal opinion on wheather a high school diploma or university degree/journyman certificate, college diploma ect. is worth being proud of.

toyboy88
02-03-2005, 05:37 PM
high school (for me western) = the biggest group of hot girls you'll ever get the chance to know :rolleyes: :D

pixil9
02-03-2005, 06:00 PM
Original Post Removed. (Please read the Forum Rules and Terms of Use (http://forums.beyond.ca/articles.php?action=data&item=1) before posting again, or risk getting banned).

Neil4Speed
02-03-2005, 07:26 PM
I don't think that a High School diploma is anything to celebrate however, for many people I think its quite significant.

In Alberta, only 66.5% of High School students get their diploma. That figure was on A-Channel Tonight.