Man Shocked With Stun Gun 9 Times Dies

[Carfanman]

Man Shocked With Stun Gun 9 Times Dies



TOLEDO, Ohio (AP) - A county inmate died after being shocked nine times with a stun gun, authorities said Tuesday.

Jail officers used a Taser gun four times to subdue Jeffrey Turner, 41, after he banged repeatedly on a security window of a first floor cell Monday night, Lucas County jail administrator Rick Keller said.

He had been shocked five times while being arrested on charges of loitering, resisting arrest and obstructing official business, police said.

Keller said Turner was still responsive after he was shocked the final time. A few minutes later, however, a jail nurse was called. Turner was later pronounced dead at a hospital.


The county coroner's office said Tuesday an initial autopsy on cause of death was inconclusive.


The jail has used Tasers about a dozen times since March and no one has required hospital treatment before, Keller said.

[statick]

should the jail officers/wardens not get in some serious sht for that?

[Toma]

Originally posted by statick
should the jail officers/wardens not get in some serious sht for that?
Nah, I mean the dude was clearly out of line banging on his cell window.

The officers were obviously justified in murdering him :rolleyes:

[Ben]

Why couldn't it have been some multi child serial rapist or something like that, someone who deserved to be in jail for life, this guy by the looks of why he was arrested, was probably pissed off that he was arrested in the first place, (though to raise hell is not always the best idea).

There will definatly be an internal investigation, they have to by law. The guy probably had a heart condition or something.

Sucks.

[AcuraTl]

lol hey its america ANYTHING can happen..remember when our cops got spat upon cuz they used a couple of cannisters of mace at some protestors...that was a cake walk compared to what happened to this guy. No doubt american cops are tough, look at the Rodney King beatings, they hold nuffin back :rolleyes:

[streetarab]

Originally posted by AcuraTl
lol hey its america ANYTHING can happen..remember when our cops got spat upon cuz they used a couple of cannisters of mace at some protestors...that was a cake walk compared to what happened to this guy. No doubt american cops are tough, look at the Rodney King beatings, they hold nuffin back :rolleyes:

THEY HIT A COLLEGE GIRL WITH THOSE CANNISTERS AND FUCKIN KILLED HER, THATS WHY THEY GOT SPAT ON,

[in*10*se]

^ whoa... a little touchy eh?

[streetarab]

Originally posted by in*10*se
^ whoa... a little touchy eh?
local papers had the picture of the dead girl layin in a pool of blood, close to home and disturbing, i could be at that spot in less than in hour,

[32V-V8]

Hmm, an Inconclusive COD? Ill give my findings: Cardiac Arrest (AbRythym), with temporal relationship to shock of the taser. But there is no cause and effect as the taser cannot deliver the necessary amperage for a dc current to do harm. Likely a chronic drug user and had focal damage in his heart, probably from cocaine. The taser didnt help, but ultimately it was coming to him. He wasnt a young guy and probably had a history of heart weakening behaviour.

[DayGlow]

people should do a search on excited delirium.

As for tasers as a force option. What would people rather have, a taser used, or people physically restraining someone? (ie hitting until they stop)

All he was doing was baning on a security window. What do you do? Ignore him while he works himself up? When do you enter? When he starts bouncing his head off of the door and harms himself? Use of force policy is set up for this reason. Without a taser as an option and it was decided that the person needs to be subdued because he is either a threat to himself or someone else.

So a guard enters the cell and the fight is on. Guard has to hit him in the head, body, legs repeatly to gain control and subdue him. There is a chance that bones can be broken and the effects of the physical encounter are long lasting.

Option two is the taser. 1 shot the guy is down and under control. He knows the pain involved and if he continues to want to fight he will get zapped again. Lasting effect is none, they just feel tired.

This went wrong and until it is proven that the taser and it's effects are what directly killed the person it is too soon to say that it's use was wrong. Even if it did, what other options were there? Again beat him until he gives in? I'd dare say that he would have died from that exersion as well.

It is tragic and sad, but reality is that some people do not respond to being talked too and hugged. He was in jail and in a excited state for a reason.

[Toma]

Tasers have killed many people with heart and other conditions.... so they should not be used.

Second... a guy banging on a cell window and making noise is a nuisance, but no danger. Eventually he would tire and stop.

If a person choses to harm themselves, that's fine, but that choice should be no one elses.

All your ifs or maybes are as always irrelevant to the topic.

[AcuraTl]

Originally posted by streetarab

local papers had the picture of the dead girl layin in a pool of blood, close to home and disturbing, i could be at that spot in less than in hour,

that was an accident man...

[streetarab]

Originally posted by AcuraTl

that was an accident man...
and....she did nothing wrong, what if your sister was killed, but it was just an accident...back to the original topic of the thread, if the method they are using could possibly kill the person, shouldnt they stop usin that method, sure most people are fine when shocked nine times, but people are dying

[DayGlow]

Originally posted by Toma
Tasers have killed many people with heart and other conditions.... so they should not be used

So when someone needs to be subdued, what force option would you suggest then? Beat them down? Sounds much better than a taser.

For this situation if it determined that the force option was not proper I would accept that. But if the man did need subduing I would argue the taser is the best option and the most likely to be effective with no ill effects.


Second... a guy banging on a cell window and making noise is a nuisance, but no danger. Eventually he would tire and stop.

[edit] re-reading the story it doesn't say he was in a cell. That would change a lot of things. Is it a common area? Were there other people around and their safety around a person in an agitated state would have to be concidered. If that is the issue, then control would be needed quickly or you would have a far more dangerous situation on hand with either hostages or a riot.(Even him 'harmlessly' banging on a cell window could set other people off. A closed environment like a jail is a very volitile place with a lot of people that have demonstrated they can do bad things packed in together)

So when does he become a problem? He could tire out, or he could escalate the situation. It's easy to say he will stop, but how do you know? Next step could be him running from one side of the room to the other and ramming the door with his head. The door will be fine, but he could seriously damage himself. Now it's too late, you gambled and lost, should have taken control of the situation before it got out of hand. You stop it before it becomes a problem. He is in jail. There are rules.


If a person choses to harm themselves, that's fine, but that choice should be no one elses.

The jailers are responsible for him while he is in there custody. If he dies or harms himself by his own actions it's their ass on the line.

I'm sorry for my continued pointless postings.

[Toma]

after he banged repeatedly on a security window of a first floor cell Monday night,

Yeah, I guess you are right. He was on the outside banging on the cell so they would let him in...

[Khyron]

Not only that, but there's been cases of cops zapping kids, even 5 year olds. It's an easy way out instead of dealing.

Sure if the guy is a threat, zap him. But cops are abusing it and using it as a god weapon. Ie, before a cop might spend 10 minutes calming a person down before arresting them, but now they just shoot him. Or if he's already in a cell, or in cuffs, they zap him. What's next? Swear at a cop and get shot?

At least the newer models permanently log when the tazer was used, how long, etc.

Khyron

[Vertigo]

Originally posted by Toma


Yeah, I guess you are right. He was on the outside banging on the cell so they would let him in...


DayGlow and 32V-V8 are completely correct here. I know from experience.

The psychology of incarcerated persons is, at times, self destructive. Whether the guy is pissed off at himself, the idiot that got him arrested, or mad at the cop, he will act irrationally and therefore do whatever it takes to feel 'justified' for being a prick. I've had to take people to the hospital because they've banged their heads on the cell door repeatedly until they passed out and suffered a concussion! Idiots.

You ask the majority of cops and they'll tell you they'd rather have the guy knock himself out than to go in after him and risk personal injury and hand-to-hand combat. It's ironic that most people are quick to say the cops are looking for a 'fight' and will stop at nothing to beat the living shit out of someone, yet when they try another option it's also somehow the wrong one. Fortunately, the TASER is a medium that has been proven to be less-than-lethal in the force continuum.

There's always going to be a downside to every action. Statistically, the TASER has been shown to reduce injuries on both sides. It's too bad some people are either genetically and/or environmentally predisposed to heart failures.

And before anyone asks, I've tested a TASER on myself. It sucks a whole lotta ass, but the after effects are nearly non-existant. (Again, for the majority).

[Khyron]

If it's a matter of force, then yes, the tazer is a very good alternative. The problem is some cops are using it when there was little or no force needed.

There's a video of an American cop zapping a guy on the side of the road - 9 times before he finally gets the idea that the guy can't put his hands behind his back. The cop was in NO danger at all (the guy was on the ground).

Most cops are NOT taught proper hand to hand, and resort to striking or some poor form of wrestling. How many cops know tactical jaw control?

I'm usually on the cops side - that Sudanese complaint about the shooting last year made me ill, I mean the guy stabbed the cop and they were surprised he got double tapped in the face. But these new easy weapons are far too convenient.

Khyron

[BlueGoblin]

Just as a side note to this story; It wasn't a police officer that did the tasering, it was a corrections officer, and imho there is a difference. Especially in the US where many jails are privately run, for-profit enterprises....

And Khyron - by tactical jaw control, I presume that you mean a mix of a restraint lock andpressure points. If not, I apologise, but pressure points are subject to pain-based compliance, and many many psychologically altered or chemically impaired people have an astonishingly reduced reaction to pain. Tasers hurt, but that is a side effect of the nerve disruption that makes them so effective. I think that even 'proper hand-hand' is far more likely to result in injuries to everybody involved in the unpredictable world where fights occur.

What is really needed is the good old Star Trek phaser, set to stun.

[streetarab]

Originally posted by BlueGoblin
Especially in the US where many jails are privately run, for-profit enterprises....
very few are privatly run

[Vertigo]

Originally posted by Khyron
There's a video of an American cop zapping a guy on the side of the road - 9 times before he finally gets the idea that the guy can't put his hands behind his back. The cop was in NO danger at all (the guy was on the ground).



I suppose a lot of this is like bench racing, and there's a reason trials take months and months. ;)

I've viewed that video and, I too, think it was a little excessive on the officer's part. However, the officer has to weigh his alternatives once the Conductive Energy Weapon has been deployed. For all intents and purposes, he is holding a stun gun in his one hand and using the radio with the other. Should the suspect pull a lead out of himself while the officer is calling in the situation via the radio then he's at a big disadvantage (useless CEW, no free hands etc). Perhaps he felt the only option he had was to 'let it ride' until he was positive the guy was going to comply.

Normally, people who've been subjected to a CEW don't try to repeatedly get up (as did that guy). Most realize they'll keep getting hit and agree to comply. I don't believe the reason he couldn't put his hands behind his back was due to the TASER...I'd suspect it was probably difficult for him to do so at the best of times. Where the officer erred was he could have told him to lay flat with his arms outstretched. The WORST thing to do is ask any arrestee to put his hands behind his back (could pull a knife etc).

Anyway, good points guys!
:thumbsup:

[Khyron]

Originally posted by BlueGoblin
And Khyron - by tactical jaw control, I presume that you mean a mix of a restraint lock andpressure points. If not, I apologise, but pressure points are subject to pain-based compliance, and many many psychologically altered or chemically impaired people have an astonishingly reduced reaction to pain. Tasers hurt, but that is a side effect of the nerve disruption that makes them so effective. I think that even 'proper hand-hand' is far more likely to result in injuries to everybody involved in the unpredictable world where fights occur.


For sure, pain compliance is usually unreliable. But wristlocks and leverage tools like armbars etc almost always work when applied properly. You can bring him down by simply directing his jaw (which controls face, which directs the body) from pretty much any angle. You can perform it one handed, with the other free for your flashlight/radio/baton.

I'm fortunate in that my teacher's mentor is a tactical instructor for the lower mainland, and that's being phased into many forces curriculum's. It works very well, and if it fails then you can escalate. But watching some of his police videos, it's obvious the one weekend a year spent on hand to hand is totally insufficient, which leads to the abuse of weapons. One test had the cop with the suspect against the wall, being cuffed. 97/100 cops were "killed" outright.

Giving a guy a weapon does not make him able to fight. If anything it gives false confidence.

Khyron

[DayGlow]

Calgary does not have tasers, so it's not in our use of force model, but my understanding that the taser is actually lower on the model than empty hand techniques for many forces.

The fact that there are no lasting effects and less chance of injury to officer and subject are the reasons.

The video of the cop tasering the guy multiple times has him warning the person not to get up and every time he tries to get to his feet he shocks him. I haven't watched it in a long time but if I remember correctly he tells him to get his hands behind his back or he'll 'hit him again' to which the guy said 'I can't'. I don't think the cop tasered him at that point, only when he rolled off of his stomach and started to get up againl

In his situation he is alone with a combative drunk. The taser gives him stand off ablility to control the man while he waits for backup. There are many videos of 1 man units getting into fights with a drunk and having their weapon used against them. I don't think it was an abuse of power. If the drunk did not attempt to get up and complied with instructions he would not have been tasered once.

As for empty handed techniques themselves, yes the training is there, but during a intense situation no one fights with perfect technique. That is one of the reasons why good dojo martial artists don't do well in competitions such as UFC and PRIDE. It doesn't go as planned.

[Khyron]

Originally posted by DayGlow
In his situation he is alone with a combative drunk. The taser gives him stand off ablility to control the man while he waits for backup. There are many videos of 1 man units getting into fights with a drunk and having their weapon used against them. I don't think it was an abuse of power. If the drunk did not attempt to get up and complied with instructions he would not have been tasered once.

I get your point, but suppose the drunk had been an 70 year old woman? (It's happened). Should he taser her just because he's inept at basic physical control? How about a 12 year old? At what line do you say "He might not be able to maintain control, better shoot him"? How about if the cop was a 5'5" 100 pound woman? Does she get to zap more people because they outsize her?

I don't know about you, but even without police training I'm pretty sure I could restrain a 12 year old without zapping him.

With the car stop video, he had distance from the subject - the guy had no means to attack him, therefore the use of force was not warranted. There has to be intent AND means.


As for empty handed techniques themselves, yes the training is there, but during a intense situation no one fights with perfect technique. That is one of the reasons why good dojo martial artists don't do well in competitions such as UFC and PRIDE. It doesn't go as planned.

I'm not talking about cases where you're up against a real vicious assassin or some crazed street fighter. No cop should try to go 1 on 1 in a real fight, that's stupid. I'm talking about shoplifters and traffic violators and drunks who you damn well should be able to control without needing a cattle prod.

I'm not opposed to the taser - it's better than a billy club and pepper spray. But it's too easy, it should be treated like a firearm with a proper report/investigation EVERY time it's used IMO.

Khyron

[DayGlow]

I agree that use of force should be reviewed and if it's abused the approprate action is taken. It's up to the judgement of the officer and their ability to articulate it afterwards. Size does have a place in the equation. A police woman may opt to the taser faster than I do. I'm big guy and practice combat fighting to stay in shape. I feel a lot more confident in a physical confrontation than a lot of people. My size in uniform defuses a lot of situations before they get out of control. I wouldn't expect a smaller police woman to make the same decisions as I do.

I agree pretty much with everything you say except this:


With the car stop video, he had distance from the subject - the guy had no means to attack him, therefore the use of force was not warranted. There has to be intent AND means.


The confrontation started when the drunk attempted to get back into his vehicle and take off. As a single officer I think he made the right decision to use the taser instead of getting into a wrestling match on the side of the road. He then told the man to stay on the ground and shocked him when he tried to get up. He followed up with more verbal commands telling the man to stay down if he did not want to be shocked. At that point to close in and take control, again without backup would be questionable tatically. He would be putting himself at risk with an individual who seems to be very motivated to get up, even if the taser was messing up his muscle control. He is a position of control where he has comand of the situation without risking escalating the fight. Once backup arrived he then can move in and take him into custody.

I've talked to Surrey RCMP members about the taser. They simply do not get into fights anymore. When someone sees the red dot on them, they know it's over and comply. Injuries to officers and offenders are way down.

But if it is abused then it should be looked at, as any other police related abuse. My understanding is that every taser probe head has unique serial numbers and a confetti that is fired onto the scene when it is used. This leaves a unique mark on the ground that the taser has been used, which one, and would be traced to who would have it. I know in the CPS we document everything in the report, including the level of force used, and there is a use of force report that has to be done as well. The taser would be no different, if only because it costs money to shoot it and the department would be making sure we weren't wasting money :D

(remember I am speaking IMHO and not as the CPS)

[Vertigo]

Originally posted by DayGlow
The confrontation started when the drunk attempted to get back into his vehicle and take off...

I just have to add that for anyone who has the opportunity, get two or three of your friends to try and hold you down while tying your hands at the same time. It's very very difficult. You'll get away easier than they thought. My point is that the situation was escalating and the use of the chosen force de-escalated it. To put the Taser away and try to cuff the guy would have put them back at square one, although you always need to reassess the level of threat.


I've talked to Surrey RCMP members about the taser. They simply do not get into fights anymore. When someone sees the red dot on them, they know it's over and comply. Injuries to officers and offenders are way down.

I can confirm this as well.


But if it is abused then it should be looked at, as any other police related abuse. My understanding is that every taser probe head has unique serial numbers and a confetti that is fired onto the scene when it is used. This leaves a unique mark on the ground that the taser has been used, which one, and would be traced to who would have it.

You're correct. The TASER brand CEW does leave identifying tags on the ground as well as it records usage in memory.