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ancient
02-25-2005, 11:55 AM
Well I have been acquring parts recently for building up my second H22A block. Initially I wanted to do a H23/H22A buildup, but I decided to go against using H23 crank and rods, and sticking to H22A parts. I have basically everything I need for bottom end, Darton sleeves, JE Pistons 10:1 H23 pistons, which will sit lower in the cycl chamber, on the H22A rods, coming out to an effective CR of 9.2 ish Eagle H Beam H22A rods. Full 3 Inch Exhaust and Cat. Have all the pipes for the custom turbo mani, and now im ready to order the turbo... I think i've come down to the GT30/40R .63 AR housing... but there is a second choice GT3071R.

Just wanted some opinions on the turbo, I decided to sacrafice a little bottom end, for more top end, just incase the 3071R tops out after 6krpm.

Also reminding you this will be a daily driven car, probably 12-14 lbs.

Links to turbos
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7950014024&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RSCC_Pr4_PcN__Stores

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7937859103&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RSCC_Pr4_PcN__Stores

joeo
02-25-2005, 10:38 PM
Do you have the compressor maps for those turbos? Did a write up about compressor maps that you may find helpful.
http://www.lovehorsepower.com/MR2_Docs/compressor_flow_maps.htm

legendboy
02-25-2005, 10:42 PM
I think it all depends on what your hp goals are. Thoes are both nice turbos but you may be spending money needlessly if your only trying to make 400 or less whp :dunno:

I just picked up a new staight T04E 54 trim with .58 P trim exhaust. Cost less than half the money for the turbos your looking at!

ancient
02-26-2005, 01:29 AM
Money isn't the issue here, so im not really interested in t04e. I want a quick spool but still have big power...


I know the GT3071R will spool slightly sooner then the GT30/40R but it may go out of the efficency range in the upper rpm ranges.

The two turbos im linking, are virtually the same, except the GT30/40R has a larger compressor, but not by a ton.

I just wanted some opinoins what you guys think, its either or... nothing else :)


Also 400whp is just a ballpark figure, if it comes out to be more... then all the better.

legendboy
02-26-2005, 05:30 PM
Well between the two i could forget the 3071. Turbine is too small imo.

Expiredsoda
02-26-2005, 11:45 PM
The GT30/40R has such a monster compressor and wheel, when that thing hits full boost (16-18psi you wanted?), your wheels won't hook up dude. :drool: I can't even get my 1.6L to hook until mid 3rd with my little T3. By the way, I'm helpin you build this fucker, I owe you for help on mine.

legendboy
02-27-2005, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by Expiredsoda
The GT30/40R has such a monster compressor and wheel, when that thing hits full boost (16-18psi you wanted?), your wheels won't hook up dude. :drool: I can't even get my 1.6L to hook until mid 3rd with my little T3. By the way, I'm helpin you build this fucker, I owe you for help on mine.

Sorry, there IS a big difference between your tiny d and our larger twin cam (vtec) engines.

That compressor is defiantly suited to our engines, all our (b series) dilemma is the turbine.....

ancient
02-27-2005, 02:29 AM
Traction is gonna be an issue with either of these turbos, at full boost settings... Im fully aware of that. The main issue im going here is reliability, and long term.

Expiredsoda
02-27-2005, 04:00 AM
Originally posted by legendboy


Sorry, there IS a big difference between your tiny d and our larger twin cam (vtec) engines.



You don't think I know that? :dunno:

legendboy
02-27-2005, 04:50 PM
haha sorry, i posted that hammered last night right before i passed out

ancient
03-04-2005, 01:42 PM
GT30/40R it is. but what ar? .63? .82??

I still cant' decide, my dad says I should go with .82 but I think thats gonna make it lag too much... and since im spending 1200 on this sucker I wanna get it exactly right.

rage2
03-04-2005, 02:07 PM
What are your goals?

Are you planning on driving it on the street 99% of the time? Do you want to race it in street trim? Or do you want to turn up the boost for that one run here and there.

Are you planning on only running pump gas (94 octane) or are you going to use a lot of 100+ octane fuels?

Trying to size a turbo to your needs. For me, I use race gas a few times a year, so I got big turbo can support the HP range that race gas can give me, but its laggier the other 360 days of the year. I'm sick of that, so I'm swapping to a smaller turbo that's more suited for my day to day HP goals and not running race gas again.

As for choosing the turbo that'll plot you right in the best efficiency island... don't bother. First off, a turbo that runs on the top island at your target airflow vs a turbo that's on the 3rd island is only going to make 5-10hp difference on a 300hp machine. Efficient intercooling will minimize that a bit more. If you're sitting right smack in the middle of the efficiency island, the turbo is too big for your application. As long as you're on the top 4 islands and not on the edge, you're in good shape. Search for the compressor map thread that I wrote a year or two ago, I mapped a single engine on a 46, 50, 57 and 60 trim compressor, and showed the difference in power (assuming equal intercooling) at each rpm range, and theoretical boost onset rpm's.

Once you define your goals of what you want, then it'll be easier to choose the right turbo for you.

legendboy
03-04-2005, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by ancient
GT30/40R it is. but what ar? .63? .82??

I still cant' decide, my dad says I should go with .82 but I think thats gonna make it lag too much... and since im spending 1200 on this sucker I wanna get it exactly right.

haha i talked to your dad today about it for like 30 mins lol!

heavyD
03-04-2005, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by ancient
Money isn't the issue here, so im not really interested in t04e. I want a quick spool but still have big power...

I'm glad money isn't an issue because you will be spending alot of money on tires.

GT series turbos aren't worth the premium price. FWD cars don't want quick spool up. Nobody likes lag but with FWD your are going to be burning rubber and making alot of smoke in the first few gears, but I guess it sounds much more impressive to say you have a ballbearing turbo.:D

Primer_Drift
03-04-2005, 02:37 PM
:drool:
T60-1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7956840198&category=33742)
Keep us posted on the results once you get this thing together, I'm interested to see how it compares to what I am using (being the same engine and all). All of you are getting T4 turbines, giving my hybrid "stage" fright :P

ancient
03-04-2005, 02:41 PM
99% street driven, while that extra power for those days I wanna track it... I agree the GT turbo is probably overkill, but I didn't feel like building a block for turbo and skimping on the turbo... It just doesn't seem right.



Alas here I am, i mean realisticly I want to be around 400-500 area...

And I'd love to do auto-xing with the car once its fully put together and running smoothly.. And I agree I do not want a turbo that is just sickly massive on the thing where all I do is burn rubber.


The first thing is streetability... and thats what Im looking at.

rage2
03-04-2005, 02:43 PM
Actually, you want as early spoolup as possible, then regulate traction in the lower gears by lowering boost with something like the AVC-R.

You do NOT want a laggy turbo, one that takes a lot of revs to spool up. The big change in TQ from off boost to on boost will spin the tires up like crazy. If you can get full boost early on and regulate it, you'll have way better traction.

So for a FWD car, you'd want as LITTLE lag as possible, coupled with gear based boost control (AVC-R, Blitz, etc).

finboy
03-04-2005, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by heavyD


I'm glad money isn't an issue because you will be spending alot of money on tires.

GT series turbos aren't worth the premium price. FWD cars don't want quick spool up. Nobody likes lag but with FWD your are going to be burning rubber and making alot of smoke in the first few gears, but I guess it sounds much more impressive to say you have a ballbearing turbo.:D

:werd:

quick spool + fwd = traction in third gear, and nothing below, lol



Originally posted by Primer_Drift
:drool:
T60-1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7956840198&category=33742)
Keep us posted on the results once you get this thing together, I'm interested to see how it compares to what I am using (being the same engine and all). All of you are getting T4 turbines, giving my hybrid "stage" fright :P

my buddy has that exact turbo for his daytona. the turbo is a friggin monster :nut: :burnout:

heavyD
03-04-2005, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by rage2
Actually, you want as early spoolup as possible, then regulate traction in the lower gears by lowering boost with something like the AVC-R.

If only that feature of the AVC-R worked reliably.:rolleyes:

heavyD
03-04-2005, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by ancient
The first thing is streetability... and thats what Im looking at.

There's not alot of correlation between 99% streatability and 500 hp.

legendboy
03-04-2005, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by rage2
You do NOT want a laggy turbo, one that takes a lot of revs to spool up.

:bullshit: :bullshit: :bullshit: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz:



:rofl:


Originally posted by heavyD


There's not alot of correlation between 99% streatability and 500 hp.

haha good point

even a 400whp street driven fwd honda is pushing it. pretty much anything more than 300whp and traction is a serious problem

legendboy
03-04-2005, 03:08 PM
just listen to your dad and get a GT3540R :D

ancient
03-05-2005, 12:11 AM
LOL! Bigger is better motto hey?


Ya he wants me to go bigger everytime, I was content with the quick spooling GT3071R before, then he convinced me it was too small.... Now hes trying to convince me to go bigger.....


and yes! im fully aware of what happens when you put too much power to a fwd honda with no weight.. Traction issues will be dealt with when I have the motor built and running perfectly.

As far as EBC's I was looking into the Greddy Profec B, but I don't believe it has any low gear boost controlling... Unless I totally missed it.

Whats my next best bet?

ancient
03-07-2005, 01:24 AM
Any ideas?

legendboy
03-07-2005, 09:12 AM
rage2 has had good luck with his avcr. Maybe get it and have him help you set it up.

heavyD
03-07-2005, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by legendboy
rage2 has had good luck with his avcr. Maybe get it and have him help you set it up.

Really? Maybe he can get mine to work too. It seems like you are always having to make tweaks to make it work. I prefer the profec e-01 in my Eclipse far better.

rage2
03-07-2005, 11:27 AM
AVC-R is the best "traction control" device for big boosted motors ;).

Completely stable boost on mine, just don't use the auto mode hehe. Only works well in manual mode.

heavyD
03-07-2005, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by rage2
AVC-R is the best "traction control" device for big boosted motors ;).

Completely stable boost on mine, just don't use the auto mode hehe. Only works well in manual mode.

The fuzzy logic on the e-01 actually works pretty well. I will be putting the Eclipse's old turbo in the Talon shortly so I'm just going to leave my AVC-R settings is and will try everything in manual after the turbo swap.

rice_eater
03-07-2005, 06:55 PM
get a hanh 20-G....still efficient in the low 400hp range, full boost around 3300-3700 on a 2L neon/dsm. it's a td05/td06. or you can go with a 20-g-h if you want a bit more power (td06/td06)

ancient
03-08-2005, 01:03 AM
ordered the turbo already.

GT30/40R .63 ar

legendboy
03-08-2005, 09:10 AM
Good job :thumbsup:

now tell me where u live so i can come steal it :hitit:

ancient
03-08-2005, 10:08 AM
Ya im gonna be a lil weary to come to the 403 meets now! Gonna have to keep an eye on those carnies folks... Small hands, can't trust em!!!







lol


but seriously ya it should be fun, still a long way off, I still need so much more stuff. EBC, Injectors, IC, IC piping, sleeving done, all the gasket seals. Theres more I just can't remember it all.

legendboy
03-08-2005, 10:21 AM
hey Graham, this is OT but show your dad these pics for me!

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/thanem/collector3.jpg

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/thanem/More%20collectors/Picture%20004.jpg

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/thanem/More%20collectors/Picture%20003.jpg

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/thanem/Collector%20FS/DSC00877.JPG

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/mcdonald/New%20Manifold/MVC-006X.JPG

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/mcdonald/New%20Manifold/MVC-005X.JPG

:D

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/thanem/kittycollectors.jpg

ancient
03-08-2005, 05:15 PM
Whats the opening fit? what flange.. t4?

legendboy
03-08-2005, 05:17 PM
it will fit both t3 an t4

awdterror
03-09-2005, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by ancient
ordered the turbo already.

GT30/40R .63 ar

Shouldn've gone bigger on the exhaust for a 2.2 litre motor, IMHO.

The pistons being so in the hole that they drop your compression 8/10 of a point sounds like you have huge piston to head clearance, no quench area, and a motor that's going to detonate like a bitch on pump gas.

ancient
03-09-2005, 11:03 PM
You're saying 3 inch is too small on a 2.2? LOL, I wouldn't be able to fit any bigger than 3.25, and good luck finding stainless in that size for any type of reasonable price. 3 inch is FINE.

And a CR of 9.2 is perfectly normal, on a boosted engine. Its actually higher than the 9:1...


Don't believe everything you read on forums.

awdterror
03-10-2005, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by ancient
You're saying 3 inch is too small on a 2.2? LOL, I wouldn't be able to fit any bigger than 3.25, and good luck finding stainless in that size for any type of reasonable price. 3 inch is FINE.

And a CR of 9.2 is perfectly normal, on a boosted engine. Its actually higher than the 9:1...


Don't believe everything you read on forums.

I was talking about the exhaust wheel, not the size of the exhaust :rolleyes: A GT30R exhaust wheel works fine and dandy on a B16, or a B18 motor, but it is getting on the small side on a 2.2 litre motor.

And do you understand the concept of quench and squish at all? There is more to a motors detonation resistance than just the compression ratio. A 10:1 motor with pistons that mirror the combustion chambers and something tight like a .020" quench area would take a lot more boost and timing on pump gas than a 9:1 motor with a generic dish or a flat top that's .1" in the hole. I don't know what the difference is on stroke, rod length, and deck height between the H23 and H22 motors, but if it drops the compression that much your 9.2:1 motor is NOT going to act at all like a 9.2:1 motor with the proper pistons will.

My advice would be to sit down and look at all your parts and see how they are going to work together before you throw the motor together.

ancient
03-10-2005, 07:31 PM
I've already done the research on all the parts I have purchased. I wouldnt' have purchased them if I didn't know it was gonna work. Im not gonna go throwing thousands of dollars around in light of it possibly working.


Deck height on H23 and H22 blocks are identical, the only thing that changes between the two, are the cranks stroke, and rod length... The other difference is , the H23 head has a 50cc dish. While the H22A has a 54cc dish, a little bit larger.

ancient
03-15-2005, 10:33 AM
Some slight modification to my plans, changed the AR housing to a .82.... Im also reselling my H23 pistons and Darton Sleeves, and gonna be sending my block to Texas to have Endyn, do my sleeving, and supplying their H22A Turbo pistons, with maximum mechanical octane. awdterror brought up a good point about the H23 pistons, something I did overlook a little.

This is an Endyn block with their pistons

legendboy
03-15-2005, 10:52 AM
"For those of you who have gone backward in time, seduced by bathtub "hemispherical" combustion chambers squish is defined by the peripheral intersect of the sprerical piston dome and the dome of the combustion chamber...There is no "flat" area of the head and piston to measure"

Primer_Drift
03-15-2005, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by ancient

Deck height on H23 and H22 blocks are identical, the only thing that changes between the two, are the cranks stroke, and rod length... The other difference is , the H23 head has a 50cc dish. While the H22A has a 54cc dish, a little bit larger.

If I'm not mistaken the piston pin height differs between the h22 and h23 pistons also. I was going to go this way also, but decided on a far easier setup. I went for the larger crank diameter (98+ A4 block) as the thought of spun bearings didn't appeal to me.

What made you decide to go for Endyn instead of the Darton sleeves? Wanna sell me your darton sleeves at a wicked discount ;)

ancient
03-15-2005, 12:24 PM
Since they are gonna do machine work, they are used to doing it their way. They actually use the open deck sleeves on the closed deck block.. As you can see in the picture they are fairly thick at the top. Mine are not nearly as thick at the top and I would rather have it 100% bulletproof. They've built tons of h22a blocks so I'll take their word and advice on all they have done..

As far as the squish, I understand that its basically old theorys on some things, but even still the fact I had the piston sitting below the top of the cylc, does bring some concern on how the explosion happens.


All in all it'll cost me a few hundred extra, but Ill know I have a 100% guranteed block, and basically know its done RIGHT.

Out of all the people locally or semi locally, no one seemed like they had the know how to do it properly, and wanted nearly 1200 canadian for it.

Primer_Drift
03-15-2005, 12:37 PM
^^^
Exactly why I sent mine to Cali to be sleeved by Darton who made the sleeves. It's insurance for sure, the last thing you want is your sleeves sinking, or poor machine work done to an expensive motor to begin with.