AWD a crutch?

[bent turbo]

Since the post was closed, I apparently p.o'ed rage. Obviously he hadn't read the comment. But I was in error for digressing in the Performance pages


I maintain that AWD is a crutch for lack of skill. As it transfers power and makes launching easier. Even if you have the right foot of a money, the car will hook-up. In context the dicussion was about there being no serious AWD drag cars.



I'm not a fan of drag but it seems to me that:
a) AWD has extra weight that isn't needed, good tires will get the power to the ground
b) since drag is a straightline race, drive at both ends isn't necessary for control, the steering wheel is barely necessary
c) the only reason to race with it is that the driver has a monkey-like right foot.

If you can drive well you don't need AWD. But it does help in the exit of corners. The ability to lay down power sooner negates the weight penalty.

Am I wrong in this?

I'm not saying that AWD isn't a good thing, just that it's silly to use it in drag racing.

[BumpinTalon]

it's silly to use in drag racing
fastest import RWDs run high 6 seconds.
fastest import FWD runs 8.12
fastest AWD runs 8.71
it really shines when there are corners involved, though.

[RickDaTuner]

i wouldnt really say that AWD is a Crutch as you so put it.

to really master a AWD car you need to understand and master the skills involved in a FWD and RWD as an AWD car will show charecteristics(sp) of bolth types. having the ability to exploit these types of handling make it a better choice

the reason that AWD is kept out of higher grade cars such as the Enzo and the Carrera GT is the fact that it adds weight to the car and upsets the weight distribution of the car, these things though especially in F1 racing are easy to overcome, especially since F1 cars are now adding ballast's to achevie the regulation weight. the fact that AWD is not permitted in F1 also would lead many to beleive that it hinders performance

[BlueGoblin]

It really depends on what sort of driving you mean - drag racing, road racing, rally? What about spirited street driving, regular commuting or poor weather driving?

It actually takes a great deal of skill to drive an awd car at the limit - just like it takes equal skill to learn to properly use fwd and rwd. All wheel drive masks a certain amount of road-feedback to be sure, and users have less of a sense of how much traction is available to them - I personally see more awd SUV's in the ditch than any other vehcile during the first and worst icy days each year. This is largely due to the drivers simply treating their vehicle as an appliance, methinks.

I don't think you can really call it a crutch - it is just a different way of looking at the benefit/liability ratio.

Automatic transmissions on the other hand....I just find them, well, a bit on the un-masculine side....

[heavyD]

It isn't a crutch at all. Two of the best handling cars in the world are the EVO & STi which aren't straight line cars at all. But if you look at the fastest DSM's, none of them are FWD. Also if AWD was so silly in drag racing, how come there are always at lease three AWD DSM's in the top ten import cars 1/4 mile times in this province?

There is really no reason for this thread as it will end up as an ongoing debate. From my experience the only guys that don't like or appreciate AWD are the ones who don't have it and can't beat the guy that has it.;)

[bent turbo]

If you learn to drive a 2wd first and then move to AWD you'll be a better driver. The reverse is not true. The comment it correct but the logic is wrong. You don't need any clue about 2wd to drive awd. But having a clue helps

Case in point the number of quality racers that start on 2wd in snowbound countries. Kimi and company. Any canadian kid that learns to drive rwd in the snow will always be a better driver in all conditions and formats.

My main issue was with the ability to launch. Since all the rubber is grabbing there is less ability to spin. The discussion started with drags and the lack of need for throtle control. It's (awd) an effective lauch control..

F1 does use launch control, and does prohibit awd for the same reason, safety. Spinning the tires on one car in the grid is really dangerous if the guy behind you doesn't spin. And while awd does make a car safer in general, a failure in driving the front wheels at 280 kph would be catastrophic.

By crutch I was intened more as a system that corrects for mistakes; mashing the gas on launch, entering a turn too fast.. etc.

And yes the Carrera GT and Enzo don't use AWD they do use TC. But the 911 turbo and Murcielago (sp?) use it to offset the generous torque to the rear end.

My point is that awd doesn't make better drivers, it makes up for lesser drivers. That said, it can, in the hands of a good driver cut down lap times. But in the hands of an inexperienced driver it grants a false sense of security. Notice you always see AWD and 4wd vehicles in the ditch after a snow storm, in greater number than there should be.

I'm not knocking awd as a system, it's great if you've mastered the skills. Now combine AWD with TC and you're dumbing down driving even more. Driving is also about feedback. If the wheel gets light you know the fronts slipping, if you fishtail you automatically know how slippery the road is.

Do you remember being 16 and waiting for snow to drive in. donuts, power slides..general stupidness. That might have been stupid at the time but you learn the limits of the car, and how to feel the road. Sure you might have had a few scares but you learned from them. With awd you're less likely to get those educating scares espesically with traction and braking thresholds. AWD is better until you drive into that safety cushion that it provides.

Back to drag. In drag the only feedback is tire slippage. If you have no slippage (an exageration, given enough power you can spin all wheels) where is the skill in launching? Yes ideal launch rpms are important for power, but if you miss, you'll still accelerate. In 2wd the line is thin between bogging and lighting up the tires.

[rage2]

Originally posted by bent turbo
I maintain that AWD is a crutch for lack of skill. As it transfers power and makes launching easier.
So lemme get this straight. AWD is a crutch because it improves overall traction. If that's the case...

LSD's are a crutch. It improves traction.
Drag slicks are a crutch. It improves traction.
Hell, tires are a crutch. It improves traction compared to launching on your bare rims.

This is the dumbest thread I've seen in a long time. Bent turbo, take those tires off your Bentley. It's helping you with traction. Drive on bare rims dude. Better yet, drive on your brake rotors.

[awd]

Pointless thread of 05 goes to...

http://elac.net/smileys/jerkit.gif

[DSMer4Life]

Originally posted by bent turbo
Back to drag. In drag the only feedback is tire slippage. If you have no slippage (an exageration, given enough power you can spin all wheels) where is the skill in launching? Yes ideal launch rpms are important for power, but if you miss, you'll still accelerate. In 2wd the line is thin between bogging and lighting up the tires.

On the strip in an AWD Talon, if you don't launch at the right rpms, you'lll bog just as bad as in a FWD. Yes, you can compensate for this by revving the crap out of it and dropping the clutch, then first gear is over, you're hitting the rev limiter and you have to shift NOW! Get back on the gas quick though to keep that turbo spooled. To say no skill is involved is not true.

On the road course in an AWD Talon, if you want an oversteer situation (i.e. drifting), you actually have to induce it with exaggerated steering. That seems a little more complicated than drifting a RWD where the rear end will let go easily.

I guess it's all in your interpretation of skill!

:burnout: :burnout:
:burnout: :burnout:

[bent turbo]

You're either beligerent or illiterate. Pick one rage.

Crutch might have been the incorrect term, but you still failed to read the post.

In synopsis, learning to drive an AWD car is inferior to learning in 2wd. As the system permits for sloppiness in driver control.

LSD is less of a drivers aid than AWD, or open diff. Open diffs were stupid to begin with, but a consession to ice and rain. Open diffs are the grand-daddy of TC. They let the wheels spin that could get a driver get into trouble. There fore if open diff corrects for bad driving like AWD, then LSD is returning control to the driver. Nice try.

Slicks. If you had read my post you wouldn't have said something like this. Why then, when someone runs a good time on street tires it's followed by "ON STREET TIRES!!!". I have yet to read a 1/4 mile annotated with " ON SLICKS!!!!" People are proud of killer times on treads, there's no badge of honor using slick. The term "ON STREET TIRES!!!!" Implies that they nailed the launch perfectly. Nice try

And Tires, sorry but 'ad absurdum' ain't gonna work either. Removing the tires completely is just a moronic argument. One you're just repeating the previous argument, and two it's just a stupid comment. You can do better than than, I've seen it

IF YOU HAD READ THE POST!!!! I was talking about making people better drivers. 2wd teaches more skills than awd will. THAT'S IT!!!

You're obviously intelligent, but you're social skills are....not knocking, no... detonating, no.... What do you call it when the spark comes too late?

lighten up : ) Go for a drive. preferably in the hills. don't think about life for a while, just live it.

[rage2]

Originally posted by bent turbo
You're either beligerent or illiterate. Pick one rage.
Actually, I'm abusive. Of my powers that is.

1 idiot down, 9999 to go.

[JAYMEZ]

LOL PWNED , nice one Rage :rofl:

[heavyD]

Originally posted by JAYMEZ_STi
LOL PWNED , nice one Rage :rofl:

It's like Dr. Evil pressing the big red button and watching satisfactorily as the guy falls to a pit of flames.:D

[EK 2.0]

Originally posted by rage2

Actually, I'm abusive. Of my powers that is.

1 idiot down, 9999 to go.

Go Rage Go!!...haha

[BokCh0y]

Originally posted by rage2

Actually, I'm abusive. Of my powers that is.

1 idiot down, 9999 to go.

hahahaha. Nice. best response I've read here. Very Nice. :thumbsup:

[Mr. Burns]

LOL that was sweet.

[J-Noble]

Originally posted by DSMer4Life

I guess it's all in your interpretation of skill!


I'm sure Michael Schumaker can clarify that.

[EK 2.0]

Originally posted by J-Noble


I'm sure Michael Schumaker can clarify that.


he has launch and traction control...