The Terry Shiavo Ordeal

[32V-V8]

Is anyone following this? If not here is a brief summary:

PINELLAS PARK, Florida (CNN) -- The feeding tube for the brain-damaged Florida woman at the center of a bitter moral and legal tug of war was disconnected Friday afternoon, and her husband's lawyer pleaded, "She has a right to die in peace."

The dramatic moment seemed to cap an emotional day in which Terri Schiavo's husband, parents, the courts and members of Congress waded into the battle over the woman's fate.

But late Friday, lawyers for the House of Representatives filed an appeal with the U.S. Supreme Court, asking the justices to intervene in the case.

Justice Anthony Kennedy has jurisdiction over emergency appeals in cases arising in the 11th U.S. Circuit, where Schiavo's case is being played out.

Without liquids, it could take Schiavo two to four weeks to die from dehydration. [end]

Now this husband of hers was awarded $2.0 Million (oops) in damages to look after her after the accident. He has also moved on and had two children with a different woman who he is not married to... he is still married to Shiavo. He is reportedly dis-involved with Shiavo and the rest of the family...but seems determined to see that she is killed.

I come from the thinking that these jerkoffs shouldnt have the ability to determine the fate of a woman who is in no apparent physical pain and does not have the ability to communicate a desire to either live or die. There allegedly was an agreement between them verbally that she didnt want to live (when she was able to communicate).

Further, if euthanasia must be done, can I aks why something as barbaric as starving her to death?

I believe she should be able to live;
-Her family is willing to accept responsibility for her
-They have the financial ability to do so
-She is a human being and we all have the right to live and by the courts moreso than we do to die.

Thoughts, comments, opinions?

[Weapon_R]

I'm not 100% up with this case either, but did she ever actually request to die?

[32V-V8]

Its speculation.. the husband claims there was a verbal agreement while watching television one night.. it is also speculation that he might want her dead so that he can keep the remaining millions from the settlement. There was nothing on paper though.

[X_plorer]

Not another one of these posts, it is going to go on and on...

Yes starving to death is a terrible way to go, but a feeding tube should also be considered a form of life support or a heroic measure. I don't think her husband is doing it for the money honestly. I think it is probably an issue of her making her wishes known to her husband and her parents not wanting to accept reality and "lose" her.

All I can say is get a living will and lay out your wishes very clearly so no one is confused should something happen one day. I also think it is very, very wrong for the gov't to be involved in this. I am sure Bush will pass some ridiculous bill not allowing people on life support to die anymore...

[32V-V8]

Umm I think the husband just wants to move on... with the money, that is why he hasnt divorced her yet... if he divorced her... he wouldnt be entitled to the money any more. There are some basic facts about the whole mess that can very easily paint the picture of the motives behind his actions. Who in their right mind wouldnt divorce her... he has another woman and two other kids! Definitely suspicious none the less.

[Toma]

Ok, Toma's thinking of what happened....

At first, when she fell ill, and was initially brain damaged due to some potassium imbalance, her hubby and her are awarded 1.4 MILLION in a law suite against doctors that is supposed to go to here treatment. If she dies, he gets the balance.

He repeatedly REFUSES any treatment for her very early on, everything from rehab, to various infections that she had along the way. He blows hundreds of thousands of the money on trying to have her killed.

Eventually, her care is SO bad that she loses 14 teeth because no one even brushed her teeth. Her parents were kept in the dark, and were not allwoed to see her medical records.

One of her infections leads to extra brain damage where now her cerebral cortex is mush, so there is no hope. Early on, doctors said she was responding, adn thought that eventually she would be feeding herself etc.

We have a responsibility to care for those that cannot care for themsleves. If anything, at this point, perhaps she should be "put out of her misery" because without the cerbral cortex.... well..... But the PRICK should be charged with murder.

Immediately upon her death, he wants her cremated and no exam.

Here is a timeline of events.

http://www.inclusiondaily.com/news/advocacy/schiavotimeline.htm

disgusting.

[Toma]

Oh, and the "heart attack due to potassium imbalance"....lol

ask any surgeon what they give a patient during open heart surgery to stop the heart??

KCl !!! And it is undetectable afterwards.

[Xtrema]

This is like an episode of Twight light zone.

If she's killed, husband wins.

If she lives, parents wins.

Either way, she loses.

Then you add a bunch of conservatives and liberals to muck it all up to make it an issue of right to die/assisted suicide.

Become a 3 ring circus.

[Toms-SC]

I really dont know what to think in this case. Like, is she really alive as it is?

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Toms-SC
I really dont know what to think in this case. Like, is she really alive as it is?

Alive as breathing air and consuming food, yes.

Alive as actually do some living, no. She's a vegetable that's kinda awake.

[32V-V8]

By the legal definition of being ALIVE, yes she is.

[nine4t4]

Without meaning to diminish her value as a human being, and with no disrespect intended to her or her family, what if she was a dog.

Would any considerate person put a pet through that ordeal. Think about the criteria of when you should but a dog down

1) the dog no longer has the ability to enjoy life, id est. it is suffering

2) the dog no longer brings you any joy. It's suffering is causing you emotional pain

3) you love the dog, and therefore have to consider it's best interests over your own desire to not say good-bye.

Ever look a severe stroke patient in the eyes, sometimes it's the only way they can communicate effectively. You can look at a brain damage victim and mistakenly think that there's no elevator to the top floor. But you may be wrong. Thinking that they are not thinking is a gross misconception. What she has is an inability to communicate her thoughts.

As a tangible example, unplug the monitor to your computer. The comp is still running but you can't interact with it. she's in the same boat.

I think the husband is supsicious of looking for personal gain.
I think the parents are suspicious of being selfish and avoiding the pain of saying good-bye.

BUT, I'm glad it's not my choice because I don't know what she's thinking. Maybe she does want to leave this earth, maybe she doesn't.

It's tough, I hope those making these decisions can live with their choices either way.

[Z_Fan]

Anyone who thinks money is the motivation (on the husband's behalf) for wanting her to be allowed to die is very wrong. The guy has had several offers (multi-million dollar offers at that) to cease and desist.

He has been offered *TEN MILLION* dollars in one instance, and in the most recent, *ONE MILLION* dollars to cease his pursuit of allowing her to die. So, money isn't the point here...while there may be some cash to be realized, he has been offered MORE money from other avenues and yet he diligently pursues her wishes.

There will be a huge injustice here if this woman is continued to live in a brain-dead state. Let nature take its course...and let her die and rest in peace.

The biggest thing I disagree with is starving her to death. Christ. Surely there is a more humane way to deal with that. A multiple murderer is treated more humanely with lethal injection. WTF is up with that?

Let's face it. This girl is brain dead. She deserves to have a dignifyable death - her life, unfortunately, serves no purpose and no potential purpose to herself or others. If she and her husband at one point had a conversation whereby they discussed their opinions of rather being dead than left in a vegetative state, so be it. He is her legal guardian, and his wishes should be carried out as they reflect her wishes when she was in a capable state of being.

Most people when they were completely able bodied have likely said something to the effect of "I'd rather be dead than brain dead or severely crippled." Etc.

So, why is it that we have the RIGHT TO LIVE and we don't have the RIGHT TO DIE? Dying is PART of life and therefore denying it is denying the constitutional right of the right to life.

WTF is up with that?

The government is going way to far in passing legislation specifically to alter the course of ONE persons personal affairs. This is a gross injustice. Fucking Congress.

At least the JUDGE presiding over the case, even after the passing of this stupid legislation failed to overturn the decision and her feeding tube remains out.

Good. Let her die and be at peace.

[Toma]

Links of offers? And the most recent is not relevent.

Brain Dead? Really? Hows that?

She responds, smiles, blinks, all her organs work, she was just never taught how to feed herself. Now she is incapable, but early on, they had hopes that it would be possible.

She is not suffering.

[gatorade]

wow she can blink and smile, what a gratifying life, if I could do such things my life would be made, no thats not suffering at all.

Laying in a bed all day for 15 years, no not suffering at all, I hope you are being sarcastic.

[Z_Fan]

She is suffering greatly - but fortunately she doesn't know it!

I would imagine she has had or currently has horrible bed soars. She will have serious muscle atrophy. This is a tragedy. She's been made to suffer for 15 years!!!!! In a bed!!!!! If you spend just a couple weeks in bed, you can have serious problems. Christopher Reeves died from it! This girl is just unlucky she hasn't...

Now, why is the most recent offer not relevant? It's a million bucks, and he didn't take it?!?! He stated on public television he had other offers in the past, one for 10 million, and he did not accept any of them.

With regards to brain dead...

A persistent vegetative state, which sometimes follows a coma, refers to a condition in which individuals have lost cognitive neurological function and awareness of the environment but retain noncognitive function and a perserved sleep-wake cycle.

INDIVIDUALS HAVE LOST COGNITIVE NEUROLOGICAL FUNCTION

That's all that is important...and that's brain dead enough for me!

[Toma]

Well, next time I am volunteering up at the brain injury unit at the FMC.... you guys are welcome to tag along and inform all the patients, their families, doctors, and nurses that they are wasting their time....

;)

Just because YOU think it would be horrible to be in that state, does not mean THEY think it is horrible.

I am not disagreeing. Due to 15 years of NO treatment, she has decayed probably past the point of no return.

I am just saying that WHERE do you draw the line... quadrapelegics? Down Syndrome, stroke victims? Cancer patients? Alzheimers?

At what line do you start to play god?

[Toma]

Originally posted by Z_Fan


With regards to brain dead...

A persistent vegetative state, which sometimes follows a coma, refers to a condition in which individuals have lost cognitive neurological function and awareness of the environment but retain noncognitive function and a perserved sleep-wake cycle.

Well except she is aware of her environment to some extent. She responds to touch, her mom, and also when she is aggravated or if you do something she does not like...

[Toms-SC]

Originally posted by Toma

At what line do you start to play god?

The scariest question ever.

[Toma]

Originally posted by Toms-SC


The scariest question ever.
Well, I dont think a lot of people here have any idea of what we once did to mentally handicapped people... Even as little as 30 to 40 years ago, not to mention hundreds of years ago.

Human's are evil beings. That is why we need morals, laws, structure, government, courts and religion....

[Z_Fan]

^^

Well, that's the whole problem now isn't it. WHERE do you draw the line.

I think it is quite simple. Everyone should have the right to life. Dying is an inherent part of life. Therefore, any individual while in a cognitive state should be able to define, for his or her self, a state of being in which the choice and right to die would supercede the choice to live. There should be humane and legal ways to carry this out. There are many many conditions which humans can be afflicted with where you'd rather be dead!

It should be legislated! It should be a part of a persons will.

For whatever reason, humanity isn't capable of dealing with death. And yes, I think if you are able bodied and one day you become a quadrapelegic - if you personally feel that you'd rather be dead, it should be a legal option. Perhaps this right should negate insurance policies in certain instances, or maybe even in all cases just to remove the element of greed as a motivation.

God knows if I'm ever fucked up beyond all recognition and can't walk, talk, eat or shit by myself, I wanna fucking be dead! And I sure as hell don't want to be forced to be kept alive by a fucking government who needs to stay the hell out of my life.

[gatorade]

and she will live to do what exactly, look at the ceiling all day?, if she were to recover she would have recovered near the time the ordeal started, not 15 years after

[32V-V8]

Originally posted by Z_Fan
Anyone who thinks money is the motivation (on the husband's behalf) for wanting her to be allowed to die is very wrong. The guy has had several offers (multi-million dollar offers at that) to cease and desist.

He has been offered *TEN MILLION* dollars in one instance, and in the most recent, *ONE MILLION* dollars to cease his pursuit of allowing her to die. So, money isn't the point here...while there may be some cash to be realized, he has been offered MORE money from other avenues and yet he diligently pursues her wishes.

There will be a huge injustice here if this woman is continued to live in a brain-dead state. Let nature take its course...and let her die and rest in peace.

The biggest thing I disagree with is starving her to death. Christ. Surely there is a more humane way to deal with that. A multiple murderer is treated more humanely with lethal injection. WTF is up with that?

Let's face it. This girl is brain dead. She deserves to have a dignifyable death - her life, unfortunately, serves no purpose and no potential purpose to herself or others. If she and her husband at one point had a conversation whereby they discussed their opinions of rather being dead than left in a vegetative state, so be it. He is her legal guardian, and his wishes should be carried out as they reflect her wishes when she was in a capable state of being.

Most people when they were completely able bodied have likely said something to the effect of "I'd rather be dead than brain dead or severely crippled." Etc.

So, why is it that we have the RIGHT TO LIVE and we don't have the RIGHT TO DIE? Dying is PART of life and therefore denying it is denying the constitutional right of the right to life.

WTF is up with that?

The government is going way to far in passing legislation specifically to alter the course of ONE persons personal affairs. This is a gross injustice. Fucking Congress.

At least the JUDGE presiding over the case, even after the passing of this stupid legislation failed to overturn the decision and her feeding tube remains out.

Good. Let her die and be at peace. With all due respect, I dont think you are adequately informed. How can you explain that its not about money? What do you think he would look like if he took offers to keep her alive? He is very calculating in how he is proceeding with this. Anyone who didnt care about the money and was in his position would have divorced her a long time ago and let the family deal with it.

When something like that happens... you might have to change what you call "normal" and adapt. She is still alive; to you with your outside perspective, that might be horrible and to her... it could be the best thing ever.

We arent talking about dogs or cats either. To make that statement, regardless of your intentions, puts animals on the same medium as human beings. I come from the thinking that animals are not on the same level as human beings.

What started out 7 years ago as one mans attempt to hoard some insurance settlement money has now escalated into government involvement and a media frienzy.

[32V-V8]

Originally posted by gatorade
and she will live to do what exactly, look at the ceiling all day?, if she were to recover she would have recovered near the time the ordeal started, not 15 years after And you are about as qualified as a lump of dogpuke to make that statement.


Originally posted by Z_Fan
She is suffering greatly - but fortunately she doesn't know it!
Well now, she isnt suffering then is she.

Evidence supports that we only get one chance at life. Im astonished at how quickly people are willing to write off human existance. This is about someones life, existance and earthly being. The government is deciding whether or not she is entitled to those priviledges. My we have a problem.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by Toma
Ok, Toma's thinking of what happened....

At first, when she fell ill, and was initially brain damaged due to some potassium imbalance, her hubby and her are awarded 1.4 MILLION in a law suite against doctors that is supposed to go to here treatment. If she dies, he gets the balance.

He repeatedly REFUSES any treatment for her very early on, everything from rehab, to various infections that she had along the way. He blows hundreds of thousands of the money on trying to have her killed.

Eventually, her care is SO bad that she loses 14 teeth because no one even brushed her teeth. Her parents were kept in the dark, and were not allwoed to see her medical records.

One of her infections leads to extra brain damage where now her cerebral cortex is mush, so there is no hope. Early on, doctors said she was responding, adn thought that eventually she would be feeding herself etc.

We have a responsibility to care for those that cannot care for themsleves. If anything, at this point, perhaps she should be "put out of her misery" because without the cerbral cortex.... well..... But the PRICK should be charged with murder.

Immediately upon her death, he wants her cremated and no exam.

Here is a timeline of events.

http://www.inclusiondaily.com/news/advocacy/schiavotimeline.htm

disgusting.

I would rather die. When you die money means nothing anyways. Are you really going to care who gets what after you are gone?

[abyss]

If you cared who got what after you died, you would've written a will. Which reminds me, I have some writing to do.....:D I think it's very sad what happened to this lady, and I hope everything works out for al parties involved. I really hope she doesn't starve to death though, that just seems really sad and a terrible way to go. If it was happening to me, I would definately rather be injected than starved.

[Z_Fan]

Originally posted by 32V-V8
Im astonished at how quickly people are willing to write off human existance.

Is merely existing considering living? Shouldn't the individual have a choice as to what level of existing is an unacceptable form of living, and choose death?


Originally posted by 32V-V8
The government is deciding whether or not she is entitled to those priviledges. My we have a problem.

Yes. The government should legislate that since it is our life, we have the choice. Once the government returns the power righteously to the individually, there will be no more issue. It will be left up to individual choice - and since it only concerns the physical state of each individual, an no other is physically harmed, this would be a much better scenario. Everyone will have a different definition of what living truly is...and they should be able to stop living whenever they see fit.

[32V-V8]

Originally posted by Z_Fan


Is merely existing considering living? Shouldn't the individual have a choice as to what level of existing is an unacceptable form of living, and choose death? Since when are you the person deciding what is an acceptable form of life to another individual? Sounds pretty arrogant to me considering we only get one chance at it and you seem so firm in your position that someone with some glaring disabilities in YOUR opinion isnt living a quality enough existance to have the right to live.



Originally posted by Z_Fan

Yes. The government should legislate that since it is our life, we have the choice. Once the government returns the power righteously to the individually, there will be no more issue. It will be left up to individual choice - and since it only concerns the physical state of each individual, an no other is physically harmed, this would be a much better scenario. Everyone will have a different definition of what living truly is...and they should be able to stop living whenever they see fit. So you think the government is larger than life. Not only are they advocating torture, but they are allowing somone who isnt involved in the family anymore to make the call. This man is family to her only by paper and refuses to divorce her but has moved on with his life... meanwhile her immediate family is fighting to keep her alive. Maybe think a bit harder into the dynamics surrounding the issue?

[gatorade]

Originally posted by 32V-V8
Since when are you the person deciding what is an acceptable form of life to another individual? Sounds pretty arrogant to me considering we only get one chance at it and you seem so firm in your position that someone with some glaring disabilities in YOUR opinion isnt living a quality enough existance to have the right to live.


So you think the government is larger than life. Not only are they advocating torture, but they are allowing somone who isnt involved in the family anymore to make the call. This man is family to her only by paper and refuses to divorce her but has moved on with his life... meanwhile her immediate family is fighting to keep her alive. Maybe think a bit harder into the dynamics surrounding the issue?

Uhh yeah because you sure know more about this than her husband who has been with her for how long?, 45 years or something?. Shes going to supposedly "live" to do what exactly? 5 years from now what will be different?.

Seems like the majority of people agree that she should be allowed to die, and looks like the courts will agree, let her die in peace, RIP Terry Shiavo.

[Z_Fan]

Originally posted by 32V-V8
Since when are you the person deciding what is an acceptable form of life to another individual? Sounds pretty arrogant to me considering we only get one chance at it and you seem so firm in your position that someone with some glaring disabilities in YOUR opinion isnt living a quality enough existance to have the right to live.

Firstly, your above writing is blatently arrogant, ignorant and rude. Do not tell me what MY opinion is...I will tell YOU what my opinion. Since your head is so far up your ass that you were unable to determine my position, which was very clear, and even more clear that it was not to impose any belief upon another indiviudal or group.

So, to clarify, since you don't get it...

I am not the person deciding what is an acceptable form of life to another individual - as you have suggested.

I AM THE PERSON DECIDING WHAT IS AN ACCEPTABLE FORM OF LIFE *** TO ME ***

Edit: And each individual should have this right. To determine WHEN they wish to cease existing and/or the circumstances under which this should occur. Based upon THEIR freedom of choice, not government policy!

If it was her wish to to choose death over life in this scenario, it should be upheld and the government should stay the hell out of it! The sick thing is she should be able to get an injection! NOT STARVE!


Originally posted by 32V-V8
So you think the government is larger than life. Not only are they advocating torture, but they are allowing somone who isnt involved in the family anymore to make the call. This man is family to her only by paper and refuses to divorce her but has moved on with his life... meanwhile her immediate family is fighting to keep her alive. Maybe think a bit harder into the dynamics surrounding the issue?

If you re-read the post you will clearly see that I believe the government should stay the hell out of it, and allow each individual to make the choice that they feel is appropriate for their life.

As for 'this man' - he is her LEGAL GUARDIAN and as such, he is the only one empowered to convey what her wishes are/were!!

[grocko]

Originally posted by gatorade
let her die in peace, RIP Terry Shiavo.

Let her die in peace? how would you like to be starved to death?? IMO that's definately the worst way to go, letting your body (basically) eat itself to death....It's debatable whether or not she can actually knows what happening to her body right now, and I really suppose we will never know (despite what CNN and her doctors are saying).
This is really a very unfortunate situation where we really don't know what the right thing to do is..I'm not really going to get into the big picture of this post, all I have to say is that starving a person to death is (debatedly) more wrong than if you were to inject him/her with something to make them pass quicker

Just my .02

[32V-V8]

Originally posted by Z_Fan




I AM THE PERSON DECIDING WHAT IS AN ACCEPTABLE FORM OF LIFE *** TO ME ***
And Im telling you your opinion is bullshit, uneducated bullshit at that. And no you arent saying whats acceptable for you... you are stating in general that YOU think she isnt living a quality life and should DIE... even though sdhe is unable to communicate a choice in the matter. And you did Too say the government should legislate that... read your post wizard.


Originally posted by Z_Fan

Edit: And each individual should have this right. To determine WHEN they wish to cease existing and/or the circumstances under which this should occur. Based upon THEIR freedom of choice, not government policy!

If it was her wish to to choose death over life in this scenario, it should be upheld and the government should stay the hell out of it! The sick thing is she should be able to get an injection! NOT STARVE!



If you re-read the post you will clearly see that I believe the government should stay the hell out of it, and allow each individual to make the choice that they feel is appropriate for their life.

As for 'this man' - he is her LEGAL GUARDIAN and as such, he is the only one empowered to convey what her wishes are/were!! There is nothing on paper that says she EVER made an agreement like that. The only thing they are going on is that he claims she made a verbal statement while watching tv of that nature. I did re-read your post... and you said that the SHOULD legislate it... are you confused?

[32V-V8]

Originally posted by Z_Fan






Yes. The government should legislate that since it is our life, we have the choice. Once the government returns the power righteously to the individually, there will be no more issue. It will be left up to individual choice - and since it only concerns the physical state of each individual, an no other is physically harmed, this would be a much better scenario. Everyone will have a different definition of what living truly is...and they should be able to stop living whenever they see fit. Have I read this wrong?


Originally posted by gatorade


Uhh yeah because you sure know more about this than her husband who has been with her for how long?, 45 years or something?. Shes going to supposedly "live" to do what exactly? 5 years from now what will be different?.

Seems like the majority of people agree that she should be allowed to die, and looks like the courts will agree, let her die in peace, RIP Terry Shiavo. Do some more reading on the matter and then come back and correct yourself. The husband hant been involved in any other facet of her life except when it comes to terminating it.

[scooby_dooby]

holy shit you guys are out to lunch,

#1 - she in a persistent vegatative state. This means that her entire cerebrum has dissapeared. Look at her brain scan, and here entire head is filled with spinal fluid. Her BRAIN STEM is still instact, this is what controls your involuntary movements such as breathing, blinking, etc

She is the very definition of someone in this state, she moves, she breathes, but has abosulely no brain, no conscious thought, her brain has literally been eaten away is now a pool of spinal fluid.

#2 - starving to death. How do you think cancer victims die? They stop eating, until they wither away and die, it's the most natural way there is to die. We don't force cancer patients to eat when they aren't hungry. And regardless someone with NO CEREBRUM can't feel hunger anyways!

#3 - For the last 15 years her husband has done nothing but take care of her, she did not lose 14 teeth and i challenge you to show me a reputable source of those claims. Not some right wing activist website that looks like it was coded by a 12 year old.
See: http://www.inclusiondaily.com/

The facts are, that after the husband was ACCUSED of maltreatment, the courts appointed an observer to investigate, the results of that inquiry was the her husband was a "Nursing Adminstrators worts nightmare" he screamed at nurses, yelled at them, all for the sake of his wife and amking sure she was well taken care of.

I admire him because he won't abondon her, everyone's saying why not just let the parents take over and let her live. Well, he believes that she deserves to rest in peace, and he's fighting for that.

The parents are liars, they've gone on TV saying things like "everyone is optomistic for her recovery" like what the hell, 200 doctors all agree that this lady will never in a million regain awareness, yet they come on TV and spew that shit?? I find it hard to understand how anyone can believe anything they say.

As for the man only being related by paper, what the hell are you smoking. IT's ALWAYS the spouse that decides these things, it's the spouse that is closest, they live together, the exist together, and traditionally the spouse has always decided these things, NOT the parent. Who would know what she really wants, her husband he lives with her 24 hours a day, in the same house, or the parent who see her once every few months for a few hours??

[scooby_dooby]

-------------------------------------------------------
Brain scans show that parts of Schiavo's brain have atrophied and been replaced by spinal fluid. With such severe damage, Schiavo can't show the recovery that Scantlin has, said Dr. Michael Pulley, assistant professor of neurology at the University of Florida College of Medicine in Jacksonville.

"Those types of changes don't reverse," Pulley said. "If you lose big pieces of brain, regardless of what it is - trauma, stroke, surgery - it doesn't come back."

The only documented case of someone recovering from a permanent vegetative state came in the early 1980s, said Dr. Ronald Cranford, a neurology professor at the University of Minnesota Medical School who has examined Schiavo.

And in that case, the patient's scan showed no brain atrophy, Cranford said. "The one thing we learned from that, you look at shrinkage of the brain," he said. "Terri has massive shrinkage."

Schiavo also has more severe brain damage than two patients in a New York study published this month, Cranford said. In that study, the patients diagnosed as minimally conscious showed increased brain activity when they heard audiotapes of loved ones' voices.

Cranford said it's hard for people without neurological training to accept that people in a vegetative state can't recover and aren't aware of their surroundings. They sleep. They wake. They grimace.

"It's very hard, because when you look at Terri Schiavo, you can think she's interacting, but she's not," he said. "When you have loving, caring parents like the Schindlers, you just want to deny they're in a vegetative state. It's a terrible syndrome."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/02/25/Tampabay/In_Kansas_recovery__h.shtml

[soupey]

^plz count ur vote here, lets see what beyond members think about this:
http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81081

goes for anyone else as well, but sounds like youve got alot to back your opinion...

[32V-V8]

Originally posted by scooby_dooby
holy shit you guys are out to lunch,

#1 - she in a persistent vegatative state. This means that her entire cerebrum has dissapeared. Look at her brain scan, and here entire head is filled with spinal fluid. Her BRAIN STEM is still instact, this is what controls your involuntary movements such as breathing, blinking, etc

She is the very definition of someone in this state, she moves, she breathes, but has abosulely no brain, no conscious thought, her brain has literally been eaten away is now a pool of spinal fluid.

#2 - starving to death. How do you think cancer victims die? They stop eating, until they wither away and die, it's the most natural way there is to die. We don't force cancer patients to eat when they aren't hungry. And regardless someone with NO CEREBRUM can't feel hunger anyways!

#3 - For the last 15 years her husband has done nothing but take care of her, she did not lose 14 teeth and i challenge you to show me a reputable source of those claims. Not some right wing activist website that looks like it was coded by a 12 year old.
See: http://www.inclusiondaily.com/

The facts are, that after the husband was ACCUSED of maltreatment, the courts appointed an observer to investigate, the results of that inquiry was the her husband was a "Nursing Adminstrators worts nightmare" he screamed at nurses, yelled at them, all for the sake of his wife and amking sure she was well taken care of.

I admire him because he won't abondon her, everyone's saying why not just let the parents take over and let her live. Well, he believes that she deserves to rest in peace, and he's fighting for that.

The parents are liars, they've gone on TV saying things like "everyone is optomistic for her recovery" like what the hell, 200 doctors all agree that this lady will never in a million regain awareness, yet they come on TV and spew that shit?? I find it hard to understand how anyone can believe anything they say.

As for the man only being related by paper, what the hell are you smoking. IT's ALWAYS the spouse that decides these things, it's the spouse that is closest, they live together, the exist together, and traditionally the spouse has always decided these things, NOT the parent. Who would know what she really wants, her husband he lives with her 24 hours a day, in the same house, or the parent who see her once every few months for a few hours?? YOU are out to LUNCH!!!! An entire medical team determined that she DOES NOT HAVE PVS! Even her fucking husbands medical team that was trying to have her done in admitted that she is not PVS... fuck get some INFO!

As for spousal involvment... he ISNT involved! He only steps in when they want her to stay alive. I have read countless articles and have been following this for a while now...

This thread is turening to shit because of people who have no information, and assume they think they know what is going on by interpreting things wrong.

Your admiration for a guy who has been accused of feeding her high volume amounts of potassium and neglected basic caring for her astonishes me. If you honestly say you admire this jack off, then you yourself are a pig.

[gatorade]

lol at anyone using http://www.inclusiondaily.com/ as a source

[lint]

Originally posted by 32V-V8
YOU are out to LUNCH!!!! An entire medical team determined that she DOES NOT HAVE PVS! Even her fucking husbands medical team that was trying to have her done in admitted that she is not PVS... fuck get some INFO!

As for spousal involvment... he ISNT involved! He only steps in when they want her to stay alive. I have read countless articles and have been following this for a while now...

This thread is turening to shit because of people who have no information, and assume they think they know what is going on by interpreting things wrong.

Your admiration for a guy who has been accused of feeding her high volume amounts of potassium and neglected basic caring for her astonishes me. If you honestly say you admire this jack off, then you yourself are a pig.

If this thread is turning to shit, do you think your comments, attacks and lack of support for your arguements could possibly have anything to do with it?

Let's see some sources to support your position. All you do is tell people to read, without providing any support for your own position, aside from being very opinionated. scooby_dooby has at least posted sources.

Until then, all you're doing is creating a shitting match. How about arguing the FACTS and not SUPPOSITIONS. You also seem to confuse ACCUSED with FOUND GUILTY.

[lint]

Originally posted by gatorade
lol at anyone using http://www.inclusiondaily.com/ as a source

How about this link (http://civilliberty.about.com/cs/humaneuthinasia/a/bgTerry.htm) then?

It provides other links to articles that support Terry and others that suppport her husband. Maybe we should try to read all of them, instead of just those on one side of the fence? And then presenting them as fact?

[32V-V8]

Originally posted by lint


If this thread is turning to shit, do you think your comments, attacks and lack of support for your arguements could possibly have anything to do with it?

Let's see some sources to support your position. All you do is tell people to read, without providing any support for your own position, aside from being very opinionated. scooby_dooby has at least posted sources.

Until then, all you're doing is creating a shitting match. How about arguing the FACTS and not SUPPOSITIONS. You also seem to confuse ACCUSED with FOUND GUILTY. Fair enough, watch this mornings CFCN story where the questioned to professionals as to her condition

A million more news links here: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/
More: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050323/LETTERS23SIDE-1/TPHealth/

More from Fort Worth Star Telegram: http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/nation/11208890.htm

Wed, Mar. 23, 2005





Questions, answers about Schiavo

By Robyn .......

The Orlando Sentinel


ORLANDO, Fla. - Here are answers to some commonly asked questions about the Terri Schiavo case:

Q: What is a "persistent vegetative state," and how is it diagnosed?

A: People in such a state have lost all higher brain function, including the ability to think, experience emotions and understand the world around them. They continue to sleep and wake, open their eyes, breathe on the their own and may make noises and facial expressions.

Their brain stems -- the portion of the brain that controls basic functions such as heartbeat and breathing -- continue to function.

People in a persistent vegetative state do not track objects with their eyes, blink on command or respond consistently to cues in the environment. Such a state over a period of time is considered persistent.

Doctors who examine the same patient can reach different conclusions, but time is the best arbiter. Schiavo has been in this state for 15 years.

Q: Schiavo appears to respond to her mother in a video released by the family. Her father said she smiled Monday when he told her that her feeding tube soon could be reinserted. Doesn't that show that she is not in a persistent vegetative state?

A: Court-appointed physicians have not been able to document a consistent, predictable response from Schiavo that would indicate that she is aware of her surroundings.

Q: Could new technology provide more insight into Schiavo's condition?

A: Functional magnetic resonance imaging tracks blood flow to regions of the brain while a person performs certain tasks, but it is not a conclusive test.

Schiavo has undergone diagnostic tests, including CT scans and EEGs, which showed her brain's electrical function to be flat, according to court records. Brain scans show that the cerebral cortex, responsible for higher thinking, has suffered severe atrophy and been replaced by liquid.

Q: Schiavo's parents and a neurologist who examined her several years ago, Dr. William Hammesfahr, say she could get better with therapy. Would she be helped by rehabilitation?

A: Other doctors have concluded that she would not improve with rehabilitation, and attempts at therapy have had no effect.

Schiavo underwent more than three years of rehabilitative therapy after her collapse in 1990, and her husband took her to a California center in late 1990 to have an experimental device implanted in her brain in hopes of stimulating activity.

According to a court-appointed guardian who reviewed the medical information for her case in 2003, there is no reason to believe that she can recover.
You need a user account to see it so yeah.

More: http://www.fox23news.com/news/national/story.aspx?content_id=1B0BA86A-FD1C-43DE-B2CB-DD87CE3F5DDE

http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050323/NEWS0802/50323083

http://www.cheboygannews.com/articles/2005/03/23/news/news1.txt

Read on... do a google, you will find plenty of articles about the situation. Your attempt to discredit my opinion that is generated from facts is sorta lame. There havent been any personal attacks on people other than the fact that they are ill informed or dont read posts in the thread before posting.

[32V-V8]

Originally posted by lint


How about this link (http://civilliberty.about.com/cs/humaneuthinasia/a/bgTerry.htm) then?
Maybe we should try to read all of them, instead of just those on one side of the fence? And then presenting them as fact?

Absolutely, reading both sides of the story is critical to forming an opinion in ANY matter.

[Z_Fan]

Originally posted by 32V-V8
Have I read this wrong?


I'm not sure.

Let's put it this way.

---------------------------------------
If you think that I am saying...

OTHER peoples values, beliefs and choice should supercede that of your OWN with respect to YOUR INDIVIDUAL right to die. In other words, OTHER people and government should dictate to you whether or not you should exist, and your opinion doesn't count - Then you have not understood my opinion.
---------------------------------------

If you think that I am saying...

INDIVIDUAL values, beliefs and choice should supercede government or any other individual values, beliefs and choice with respect to YOUR INDIVIDUAL right to die. In other words...You, and only you, should be in control and the utlimate determining factor on whether your life should be terminated. If you are not in a cognitive state, then a will of how to deal with your situation should be upheld by your legal guardian.

Then you have understood my opinion.
-----------------------------------------

In this case, we have only a verbal agreement and who knows whether it happened - but my guess is that it did - although probably in the context as though it would 'never happen to me' kind of scenario.

The line which Toma was talking about is just too controversial to have the matter decided by government. The variance in what each person views a life worth living shouldn't be defined by OTHER individuals, groups or government. It should be left up to each individual.

For example, while my V6 TT is spanking your 32V-V8 you and I both are involved in a street racing car accident and we both wind up completely paralyzed. Yet we have cognitive thought. (Lucky us!) If you choose to live, and I choose to die, BOTH of our wishes should be granted. I should have the right to die! Also, if we both wind up without cognitive thought, my will which details how I wish my death to be determined should be carried out. If being a completely paralyzed human being with no cognitive thought is my definition of an acceptable circumstance whereby I would like to cease to exist - then MY wishes should be carried out and no outside source should be able to trump that decision.

Fortunately, the judicial system (so far) is upholding and protecting the individual rights in this case. As long as this stays true, and she is allowed to die, then our rights have been protected. Obviously, the judge in this case is extremely wise and is telling the government (by upholding the courts decision) that they are breaching constitutional rights by attempting to intervene.

The only real tragedy is not that Schiavo has to cease to exist, (because she her life stopped 15 years ago IMO) but that there is no legislation permitting it to be done in a humane fashion. That is why this case is so disgustingly wrong. If the choice has been made that her life should cease, which by default it has with the removal of her feeding tube, the least society can do as a whole is force the government to introduce legislation concerning the right to die in a humane, quick, and painless fashion.

[32V-V8]

Originally posted by Z_Fan


---------------------------------------

If you think that I am saying...

INDIVIDUAL values, beliefs and choice should supercede government or any other individual values, beliefs and choice with respect to YOUR INDIVIDUAL right to die. In other words...You, and only you, should be in control and the utlimate determining factor on whether your life should be terminated. If you are not in a cognitive state, then a will of how to deal with your situation should be upheld by your legal guardian.

Then you have understood my opinion.
-----------------------------------------
Good Job at cleaning up your opinion.



Originally posted by Z_Fan
[B] In this case, we have only a verbal agreement and who knows whether it happened - but my guess is that it did - although probably in the context as though it would 'never happen to me' kind of scenario. To me, regardless of consensus, a verbal agreement would not hold enough weight to allow someone to die.



Originally posted by Z_Fan
[B]
For example, while my V6 TT is spanking your 32V-V8 I guess we can agree that you have lost all cognitive function ;)

Originally posted by Z_Fan
[B]
you and I both are involved in a street racing car accident and we both wind up completely paralyzed. Yet we have cognitive thought. (Lucky us!) If you choose to live, and I choose to die, BOTH of our wishes should be granted. I should have the right to die! Also, if we both wind up without cognitive thought, my will which details how I wish my death to be determined should be carried out. If being a completely paralyzed human being with no cognitive thought is my definition of an acceptable circumstance whereby I would like to cease to exist - then MY wishes should be carried out and no outside source should be able to trump that decision. Fair enough, but if you DID want to live and couldnt communicate that to your caregivers all the while having somone in the picture who is trying to have you killed... your tune would change. There is too much speculation here.

Originally posted by Z_Fan
[B]
Fortunately, the judicial system (so far) is upholding and protecting the individual rights in this case. As long as this stays true, and she is allowed to die, then our rights have been protected. Obviously, the judge in this case is extremely wise and is telling the government (by upholding the courts decision) that they are breaching constitutional rights by attempting to intervene.
Where I get fired up about this is that there is no proof that there was even an agreement in the first place...yet LOTS of ulterior motive for the husband to generate a fallacy like this.

[scooby_dooby]

32V-V8, here's a list of completely false, un-substantiated claims that you've made, if you have an ounce of proof for ANY of these then back it up.

- An entire medical team determined that she DOES NOT HAVE PVS
Proof?

- he ISNT involved!
As her legal gaurdian of course he is involved, prove otherwise.

- feeding her high volume amounts of potassium
Proof? Her condition was brought on by LACK of pottassium, not too much. Why hasn't he been charged if there is in fact evidence of this? where's the evidence?

- he might want her dead so that he can keep the remaining millions from the settlement.
the settlement was for 1.4 million, so there are no MILLIONS, and the bulk of that went to terry, of which only a small bit remains, show me a news story that says she still has a substantial amount of money in her estate. She doesn't, and you won't be able to find that story. So you're entire motive is out the window.

- Anyone who didnt care about the money and was in his position would have divorced her a long time ago and let the family deal with it.
Who the hell are you to say this? That a decision each person must make on their own, your assertion that anyone who wasn't interested in money would simply abondon their spouse makes me wonder about your personal values, cause that outlook is fuct.

other completely fuct up, and baseless comments in this thread:

- He repeatedly REFUSES any treatment for her very early on, everything from rehab, to various infections that she had along the way. He blows hundreds of thousands of the money on trying to have her killed.
Completely the opposite of what actually hppened. Proof? Source?

- I would imagine she has had or currently has horrible bed soars.
According to all testimony inside the courtroom, thsi women has never had a signle bedsore in 15 years.

- Eventually, her care is SO bad that she loses 14 teeth because no one even brushed her teeth
100% false. Please give some proof when making ridiculous claims like this.

also, 32V-V8, i'll say that your resorting to name calling, insults, calling people stupid is completely immature. Grow up, people can have a discussion, with different viewpoints, without attacking eachother and calling people who have different opinions stupid.

Maybe you should realize that the courts, the jury's, and the judges all knew 100times more about this than you EVER WILL, and they've ruled time and time again she is in PVS, she will not recover, he has not abused her, why don't you respect 19 court cases that have all agreed on the facts.

[scooby_dooby]

Originally posted by 32V-V8
A million more news links here: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/
More: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050323/LETTERS23SIDE-1/TPHealth/

More from Fort Worth Star Telegram: http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/nation/11208890.htm

those are some great sources, link 1 is again obviosuly completely right-wing garbage website, looks like it was coded by a 10 year old. Link 2 is an EDITORIAL piece, which is an OPINION piece. And link 3 is to nothing, who's gonna have a subsription to the fort worth Telegram?? LOL, keep up the great work!


Originally posted by 32V-V8

Q: What is a "persistent vegetative state," and how is it diagnosed?

A: People in such a state have lost all higher brain function, including the ability to think, experience emotions and understand the world around them. They continue to sleep and wake, open their eyes, breathe on the their own and may make noises and facial expressions.

Their brain stems -- the portion of the brain that controls basic functions such as heartbeat and breathing -- continue to function.

People in a persistent vegetative state do not track objects with their eyes, blink on command or respond consistently to cues in the environment. Such a state over a period of time is considered persistent.

Doctors who examine the same patient can reach different conclusions, but time is the best arbiter. Schiavo has been in this state for 15 years.

Q: Schiavo appears to respond to her mother in a video released by the family. Her father said she smiled Monday when he told her that her feeding tube soon could be reinserted. Doesn't that show that she is not in a persistent vegetative state?

A: Court-appointed physicians have not been able to document a consistent, predictable response from Schiavo that would indicate that she is aware of her surroundings.

Q: Could new technology provide more insight into Schiavo's condition?

A: Functional magnetic resonance imaging tracks blood flow to regions of the brain while a person performs certain tasks, but it is not a conclusive test.

Schiavo has undergone diagnostic tests, including CT scans and EEGs, which showed her brain's electrical function to be flat, according to court records. Brain scans show that the cerebral cortex, responsible for higher thinking, has suffered severe atrophy and been replaced by liquid.

Q: Schiavo's parents and a neurologist who examined her several years ago, Dr. William Hammesfahr, say she could get better with therapy. Would she be helped by rehabilitation?

A: Other doctors have concluded that she would not improve with rehabilitation, and attempts at therapy have had no effect.

Schiavo underwent more than three years of rehabilitative therapy after her collapse in 1990, and her husband took her to a California center in late 1990 to have an experimental device implanted in her brain in hopes of stimulating activity.

According to a court-appointed guardian who reviewed the medical information for her case in 2003, there is no reason to believe that she can recover.



"Your attempt to discredit my opinion that is generated from facts is sorta lame. "

You just completely discredidet yourslef, everyting in that story goes against what you're saying, lol, I thought you said a whole team doctors agreed she wasn't PVS!!? Now it's a single doctor, hired by the parents, 3 years ago?? lol,

that article also doesn't mention how a judge threw that doctors testimony out of court, claiming he was only trying to make a name for himself. Judges make decision on fact, they are held responsible for their decisions, not like these crap web-sites and radio shows that say whatever they want with no proof whatsoever.

You believe them if you like, I'll believe the evidence and the actual facts.

[D. Dub]

Originally posted by lint


If this thread is turning to shit, do you think your comments, attacks and lack of support for your arguements could possibly have anything to do with it?

Let's see some sources to support your position. All you do is tell people to read, without providing any support for your own position, aside from being very opinionated. scooby_dooby has at least posted sources.

Until then, all you're doing is creating a shitting match. How about arguing the FACTS and not SUPPOSITIONS. You also seem to confuse ACCUSED with FOUND GUILTY.

No No No we don't want facts..... conjecture, name calling and BS is much better :rolleyes:

[32V-V8]

Originally posted by scooby_dooby




You believe them if you like, I'll believe the evidence and the actual facts. None of which you have. You accuse me of not having any proof or evidence... go to her website...read. The family made a statement saying that he has "moved on with his life" and had two children with another woman. I guess I can find you a horses ass to go digging around for more evidence. You have no evidence... you merely thought that discrediting the things I found you would suffice in trying to prove me wrong... and it didnt work- because I caught you. You are an inferior debater... I cant help that. The articles that carry weight on my side of the debate... you childishly attack the "poor coding" of the site :rolleyes: maybe Ill find a site with some flash for you.

Scooby Doo, oops I mean speaknspell, how have I discredited myself? I posted an article from another side of the debate? I have read articles and information from both sides and maintain my position....Guess you didnt finish grade 10?

I could post the actual tox results of some of her recent tests and you dimwitted blowholes would still say I had no evidence :rolleyes: go get boned. Further... you claim I have no support for my arguements? How do figure that you mooseknuckle? I have on countless occaisions explained to you, in terms you understand; my position on the debate. What an idiot show.

[scooby_dooby]

lol, man you've been owned about 20 fuckin times in this thread, you think websites are fact, they're not,

in less then an hour I could buy a domain, and create an entire website dedicated to how pigs can fly, so what, it doesn't make it true. That's why we have things like COURTS and JUDGES, and DOCTORS too!

all your claims are completely wrong, if even one of your made up arghuments were true the husband would have been charged years ago. 19 court cases, no charges, so you can believe your website.

I'm still waiting for the team of doctors that said she wasn't in a PVS, proof that he is not involved in here life, and ANY facts to back up your claim he's in it for the money.

will you ignore it for a second time, or will actually back up your claims? Still waiting...

[32V-V8]

Originally posted by scooby_dooby
lol, man you've been owned about 20 fuckin times in this thread, you think websites are fact, they're not,

in less then an hour I could buy a domain, and create an entire website dedicated to how pigs can fly, so what, it doesn't make it true. That's why we have things like COURTS and JUDGES, and DOCTORS too!

all your claims are completely wrong, if even one of your made up arghuments were true the husband would have been charged years ago. 19 court cases, no charges, so you can believe your website.

I'm still waiting for the team of doctors that said she wasn't in a PVS, proof that he is not involved in here life, and ANY facts to back up your claim he's in it for the money.

will you ignore it for a second time, or will actually back up your claims? Still waiting... Speakandspell, the 19 court cases had nothing to do with criminal charges... quit being stupid. I have read more sites with contradictory evidence to the other, sift through it. You seem to be acting like you have an inside lead somewhere? Post some info wizard! All of you jackoffs who accuse me of having the wrong info... have yet to provide any proof of your own! Go look the PVS thing yourself! She was re-diagnosed with a different condition because she didnt meet the criteria of PVS. It was called Minimal Consciousness Syndrome or something to that effect... so you are owned again. I dont carry around a notepad with the urls so that I can argue with some sub-intelligent cockroach on beyond.. sorry. If I find it again, I will post it up for you... but from the looks of thing you a) can't read and b) cant type/spell, so after it stumps you with big words you cant accuse me of having a bad lead.

Owned 20 times? again, provide evidence.

You couldnt own a sandwich bag!

[scooby_dooby]

I don't need to look anything up, the courts have decided she is PVS based on the facts, they have decided the Shindlers claims of abuse are baseless, and they will not be pressing charges against the husband who has done nothing but care for his wife.

The tube will not be reinsterted, the appeals have already been rejected, and finally she will be allowed to rest in peace.

God Bless.

[DEREK57]

Well Im a little late but I'd like to put my $0.02 in.

I think they should let her go. Basically its a choice between starving to death, and rotting with a tube in your stomach. If there is a more humane way of letting her pass on than starving her they should use it, but I dont think that is legal.

But the fact of the matter is she wont recover. There are a few doctors who have made diagnoses after watching video, and saying she will recover, but this is after it became a giant political struggle. Basically she has no cerebrial cortex, and its not coming back.

http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/CT%20scan.png

As for the husband, I think there are way too many self-rightous people out there trying to judge him, and make him out to be a monster...not to mention the political value this case has.

The money that she got for medical treatment is basically all gone, I think there is less than $50,000 left, and the husband has been offered way more than that to let her live.

Also she got in an accident in 1990. He waited for 8 years for her to recover or show any sign of coming back, and then asked that they pull the plug. What was he doing for 8 years? Waiting, rubbing his hands together to make sure noone would suspect a thing. According to the Flo. law it is his right to say if they pull the plug or not. So if he was just after the $, he would have demanded that a long time ago. Also because of this it makes sense that she would tell him and not bother writting it in a will. Instead of wasting all the money to get a will drawn up to take care of such a rare instance, she could just tell her husband since it is apparently his right to decide this. If she didnt want her husband to decide for her, then she would've written it in a will.

Somehow I really doubt Terri would want her family drawn through this huge public fiasco, and have protestors call her husband a murderer for trying to let her go after 15 years!

[lint]

Originally posted by D. Dub


No No No we don't want facts..... conjecture, name calling and BS is much better :rolleyes:

Of course, this holds much greater entertainment value.

[32V-V8]

They werent referring to letting her die when they accused him of being a murderer... they were talking about the neglect during her... the speculation of feeding her large amounts of potassium and shit like that. I would be less concerned if she was going out in a more humane way... but the law will not allow it.

[D. Dub]

Originally posted by 32V-V8
They werent referring to letting her die when they accused him of being a murderer... they were talking about the neglect during her... the speculation of feeding her large amounts of potassium and shit like that. I would be less concerned if she was going out in a more humane way... but the law will not allow it.

Why is removal of the food tube in-humane?

She won't even know she's starving.

...and even if there is a one in a million chance that she has a trace of human consciousness...

....her quality of life is so poor that she would welcome the respite of death.

[32V-V8]

Well, I would call it inhumane because of dehydration and malnutrition. And the fact it will take anywhere from 2-4 weeks for her to die. On principle it is an atrocity... The wierd part is that no one really knows if she has presence of mind... and simply cannot communicate. Maybe the minimal amount of electrical activity in her brain means something? Seeing as she is going to die... I just hope it isnt as painful as it sounds.

[D. Dub]

Originally posted by 32V-V8
Well, I would call it inhumane because of dehydration and malnutrition. And the fact it will take anywhere from 2-4 weeks for her to die. On principle it is an atrocity... The wierd part is that no one really knows if she has presence of mind... and simply cannot communicate. Maybe the minimal amount of electrical activity in her brain means something? Seeing as she is going to die... I just hope it isnt as painful as it sounds.

There's not much brain left though.

[32V-V8]

Which indicates that she is not fully braindead... I just hope she doesnt feel it.

[Kirbs17]

This may sound heartless, but based on my own feelings that I would rather be laid to rest then continuously live off of a machine, she should be allowed to die. IMO her parents are being selfless. my 0.02. YES, before anyone argues back, I have taken all avenues in account, and i still feel this.

[32V-V8]

Nothing heartless about it.. (The term is selfish, selfless indicates being umm generous and less self centered) AT a certain point... I would obviously chose death too... not by starvation though. None of us have ever seen her face to face... so I guess the severity of the situation cant be graded at a personal level... I am merely making an apeal to morality and ethics.

[AcuraTl]

lyfe must be pr3s3rv3d!

[32V-V8]

t3h n00b |-|45 5p0|<3|\|!

[AcuraTl]

Originally posted by 32V-V8
t3h n00b |-|45 5p0|&lt;3|\|!

i am not the nigz0r who got banned :D :closed:

[Z_Fan]

SNIP

Earlier on Saturday, Pinellas Circuit Judge George Greer denied a motion by Bob and Mary Schindler who claimed their daughter said "AHHHHH" and "WAAAAAAA" when asked to repeat the phrase "I want to live."

SNIP

I wonder if she only could have finished her statement.

"AHHHHH" "WAAAAAAA" "TAAAAAAAA" "DAAAAAAA"


:rolleyes:

Could have gone either way!

[403Gemini]

Originally posted by Z_Fan
SNIP

Earlier on Saturday, Pinellas Circuit Judge George Greer denied a motion by Bob and Mary Schindler who claimed their daughter said &quot;AHHHHH&quot; and &quot;WAAAAAAA&quot; when asked to repeat the phrase &quot;I want to live.&quot;

SNIP

I wonder if she only could have finished her statement.

&quot;AHHHHH&quot; &quot;WAAAAAAA&quot; &quot;TAAAAAAAA&quot; &quot;DAAAAAAA&quot;


:rolleyes:

Could have gone either way!

sounds cold, but that made me laugh. IMO if the husband has been there supporting her, then he has full legal rights to instruct them to do so to remove the tube. She said herself (though not in writing so theres no actual "proof" of this) that she would want to die if something like this occured. I would want to die. My fiance would want to die, almost anybody you talk to say they would rather die. Thats why it is left up to the spouse. A family can never let go. Parents will always want to hang on for the "just in case" but as spouse seeing somebody you love live in torture and not comprehending seeing you, being able to hug you or kiss you, there is a time where (sounds cold again) need to move on. If there is ever a tragic accident in my life where im put in a vegatative state, i would want to die and let my fiance move on. Its not worth her efforts or time to sit at my bed side for over 15 years hoping ill get better.

And i hardly think this is about money.

[Z_Fan]

I don't think you'll find too many people who would want to trade places with Terri Schiavo. My last post isn't meant to be cold really...it was meant to point out that it could have gone either way. Really, we all know Terri wasn't doing anything other than the occasional groaning she likely does as a part of her condition.

Now, if you think my above post was cold...what would you think of starting a poll for the date of her death? That might go a little further into the realm of cold. Maybe we could do that in Ask Leo?

I'm hopeful it will be April 1st. That'd be ironic. But it'll probably be around April 4th to 7th.

:dunno:

I just wish society could have a slightly more humane way of carrying this stuff out. That's what is really wrong with this case. Why does the US *FRY* or *INJECT* mass murderers? Why don't they bleed them to death, or starve them or something? That seems so unfair...

[fast95pony]

Meantime hundred's of healthy people are dying every day from abusive thugs in Africa,but I don't see the American Congress and expensive lawyers helping them out.. :(

[D. Dub]

Originally posted by Z_Fan

I just wish society could have a slightly more humane way of carrying this stuff out. That's what is really wrong with this case. Why does the US *FRY* or *INJECT* mass murderers? Why don't they bleed them to death, or starve them or something? That seems so unfair...


She has no EKG activity in the cerebral cortex part of her brain...meaning...no consciousness, awareness, or thought process.

It's almost certain that she is not suffering while "starving" because she has no awareness of starving.

[AcuraTl]

im sorry but people are dying everywhere...iraq, indonasia i mean seriously she is bed ridden because of a natural problem...i can see if she was assaulted and is in this condition how the people could make the case but...seriously...all this media just for one life....

[Velox]

I don't know if its true or not that she is not suffering any pain... I was listening to the news last night and it was reported that even tho they took out the feeding tube a week or so ago they are keeping her on a morphin drip to help with whole let her starve to death... if she really doesn't feel anything at all why the morphin?

my personal opinion is that if they are going to let her die, theres gotta be a better way then starvation.

[D. Dub]

Originally posted by Velox
I don't know if its true or not that she is not suffering any pain... I was listening to the news last night and it was reported that even tho they took out the feeding tube a week or so ago they are keeping her on a morphin drip to help with whole let her starve to death... if she really doesn't feel anything at all why the morphin?

my personal opinion is that if they are going to let her die, theres gotta be a better way then starvation.

no cerebral cortex activity = no awareness = no pain

[Z_Fan]

I would agree she is not suffering. (I already pointed it out earlier in this thread)

However, the people involved are. Once the decision was made that she will die, there should have been a legal mechanism or avenue available to make it quick.

The fact that they are going to starve her to death, whether she feels it or not, is just silly. One injection, boom, we're done in a minute or so. That's how it should be. Quick and easy.

[Velox]

excatly what i ment ... but what i don't get is why the morphin if theres no pain... isn't that kind of a waste?

[Xtrema]

This is some f'ed up sick humor here:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/terri_is_risen/

[hjr]

there is a difference between letting someone die and killing them. Look at the debate now, and imagine how much worse it would be if they took her life away, rather than stopped sustaining it.

[scooby_dooby]

exactly, there's a huge difference between simply letting nature take it's course, which is what they're doing now, and killing her, huge difference legally.

and every doctor I've hear has said over and over this is one of the most peaceful ways to die, it's painless and you gradually fall asleep, it's the same way most cancer patients eventually die.

[abyss]

Just heard on the radio that Terri died this morning, RIP. :(

[sputnik]

one side of the "debate"

http://www.livejournal.com/community/kill_terri/9666.html

[interlude]

Yea.. I just heard it too. RIP

I hope that fuker dies a horrible death, so he can feel the same pain.

[legendboy]

At least its over now. I'm SURE she is in a better place now then where she's been the last 10 or whatever years.

[D. Dub]

Originally posted by abyss
Just heard on the radio that Terri died this morning, RIP. :(


RIP...

but in a fair and just universe her soul/essence left her a long time ago.

[Z_Fan]

:clap:

Finally, she's dead.

:closed:

Now society can look deeper into the issues that Terri's life presented to the entire world. It's time for the politicians to step up with some decent and clear legislation about the right to die and mechanisms to carry out those rights.

[DEREK57]

RIP Terri.


Apparently Bush gave his condolences to the family...but not the husband. And Im pretty sure the family will be on soon enough to say again that the husband doesnt care, if they already havn't.

[three33]

I'm sure the husband will get what he deserves from someone who actually loved Terri. In my eyes he is nothing but scum,no heart and deserves to be starved to death.It would have been more humane to have just shot the poor girl instead of making her starve and dehydrate to death, she was treated worse then most criminals are and she never did anything wrong in this life.

[DEREK57]

Originally posted by three33
I'm sure the husband will get what he deserves from someone who actually loved Terri. In my eyes he is nothing but scum,no heart and deserves to be starved to death.It would have been more humane to have just shot the poor girl instead of making her starve and dehydrate to death, she was treated worse then most criminals are and she never did anything wrong in this life.

Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe she did ask to be put under if she became a vegetable???

[Def_3]

Originally posted by DEREK57


Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe she did ask to be put under if she became a vegetable??? :werd: i have a mom that is very ill with Multiple Sclerosis and other ailments, she signed a sheet saying she DOES NOT want to be kept alive if she becomes a vegatable, no questions, but then again we don't know Terri's wishes, either way RIP, I know you will be missed...:(

[civicrider]

Originally posted by three33
I'm sure the husband will get what he deserves from someone who actually loved Terri. In my eyes he is nothing but scum,no heart and deserves to be starved to death.It would have been more humane to have just shot the poor girl instead of making her starve and dehydrate to death, she was treated worse then most criminals are and she never did anything wrong in this life.

also the fact she felt no pain so shooting her would make no differnce. the only people that make me mad are her parents for publisizing this whole thing and now the poor girls face has been all over the TV. for that i say poor girl and stupid fucking parents. thry didnt help anyone! she wanted to die if she was in that situation so they should have let her without bitching.

[Carfanman]

^How the fcuk do you know she wanted to die? She never said that, and she was showing responces. And I cant believe your heartless enough to say the parents are stupid and make it worse. They wanted to do whatever they could to save their child. They gave birth to her and raised her. So they should just say, "Ok, the person who I love more than anything is showing a chance for improvement, but since her husband wants her to be starved, we'll just let that happen, even though we don't know if thats what she wanted".

It would be much better to err in favor of life.

[Made_To_Love]

Originally posted by civicrider


also the fact she felt no pain so shooting her would make no differnce. the only people that make me mad are her parents for publisizing this whole thing and now the poor girls face has been all over the TV. for that i say poor girl and stupid fucking parents. thry didnt help anyone! she wanted to die if she was in that situation so they should have let her without bitching.


How does anybody know that she didn't feel hunger pain, yes she was brain dead so she could not talk or be mobile, but nobody said she couldn't still feel hungry.Nobody will ever know if she actually wanted to die, there is nothing written on paper, her husband just didn't want to deal with her, if he was any kind of a person he wouldn't have gone off and got a new wife and had another child, he should be charged with bigamy. He's a cold hearted bastard in my eyes, like Terri's mother said "You already have a new family and your own child, please give my child back to me."
Her parents did nothing but be good parents, any parent that would want to starve their child too death regardless of disability and age does not deserve children. I feel so sad for her whole family, except for her husband, he'll get whats coming to him and it won't be very nice I don't think.Rest in Peace Terri,I hope you are in Heaven where you can finally rest in peace.God bless.

[civicrider]

well considering you need your brain to feel things she wouldnt feel a thing. sure there should be a better way to kill them like with a needle or something, but then again the reason the girl went brain dead is he own fault. you cant honestly say if you were in a coma for over 10 years you would wanna stay alive, expecialy after you have been exploited all over the news. of course parents arnt gonna want to let go that doesnt make it the best thing to do. it was clear she wasnt comming back and if she did she would be so hanicapped it would be pointless.

[lint]

Originally posted by Made_To_Love



How does anybody know that she didn't feel hunger pain, yes she was brain dead so she could not talk or be mobile, but nobody said she couldn't still feel hungry.Nobody will ever know if she actually wanted to die, there is nothing written on paper, her husband just didn't want to deal with her, if he was any kind of a person he wouldn't have gone off and got a new wife and had another child, he should be charged with bigamy. He's a cold hearted bastard in my eyes, like Terri's mother said &quot;You already have a new family and your own child, please give my child back to me.&quot;
Her parents did nothing but be good parents, any parent that would want to starve their child too death regardless of disability and age does not deserve children. I feel so sad for her whole family, except for her husband, he'll get whats coming to him and it won't be very nice I don't think.Rest in Peace Terri,I hope you are in Heaven where you can finally rest in peace.God bless.

Pretty judgemental post. From a legal standpoint, with 19 rulings, it was decided that she did not want to be kept alive artificially if she was ever in this position. The husband was carrying out her wishes. I for one would not want to live as a vegetable for the rest of my life. For the parents to preserve her life is for their own purpose, not hers. How is it in anyone's best interests to be kept alive to be a burden? And I do believe that you have not read points from both sides. If her husband didn't want anything to do with her, why did he take care of her for 14 years? Do you know the facts? Also to criticize him for moving on and starting a new family. At least he realizes that she isn't coming back. Should he mourn her for the rest of his life? You also don't understand what it means to be brain dead. It means no brain function, which means you can't feel anything. No emotions, and no pain, and as others have said, starvation isn't an issue. Her wishes are similar to a do not recusitate order, meaning that you don't do anything to prevent death, but that doesn't mean that you cause death either. Let nature run it's course.

[Kamen]

I've been reading about this in the paper day after day and I just wanted to know why they didn't choose to use lethal injection or some other form of painless death as opposed to STARVING HER TO DEATH. WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE???

[civicrider]

because by using the leathal injection that person is murdering, by taking away the food she is killing herself because she cant eat. its not against the law to not help someone who is dieing but your not allowed to kill them.
i hope that makes sense

for example if i shoot someone its considerd murder

if i am doing CPR on an injured person and as long as i continue they stay alive, but if i stop its not considered murder because i was helping them in the first place.

[WillChan]

NYTimes (bugmenot required) (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/politics/29donate.html?oref=login)

Yahoo news (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/kgtv/20050329/lo_wkmg/2648050)

This has bad timing wrtten all over it. To me, if they want to sell those names to the company, then they should have picked a better time. What do you all think?

btw, I've always wondered whether or not she was in a vegetative state or not, and I recently read about FMRI's, they can tell whether a patient still has cognitive brain function or not. If they had used this, then one side would have been right...unless the test was inconclusive...

[Z_Fan]

I'm so sick of this case. A disgusting case of politics and public opinion interferring in a private judicial matter.

I'm really really really glad she's dead.

Now, no matter your opinion, this case is over. Everyone can obtain some degree of peace with what has happened. If she was kept alive, the tensions between each side or choice would just continued to grow.

I think it really highlights the importance of judicial system. In this case, the judicial system told the legislative system to mind their own damn business. The legislative branch should *NEVER* attempt to intervene in private matters. That was a disgusting display of the USA's democratic process and the judges were very right to tell Congress, the Senate and the President to STFU.

It also presents everyone with a clear and definitive path with respect to their life & death choices. If you want to have a say, and don't want a public battle with family, other civilians, pressure groups and the government (etc.), then you'd better have something down on paper. The awareness for that fact has been raised to a level never seen before, and we can thank the Terri Schiavo ordeal for that.

So, get a will and make damn sure that you have provisions set out for this type of circumstance. Don't think it can't happen to you.

[Z_Fan]

Just thought I'd point this link out. Some of it is still controversial, however, most of this information is held to be extremely accurate. That is one thing I like about the source...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_schiavo

If you read this start to finish, you'll understand Terri wasn't able to feel anything. She had zero cognitive thought.

You'll also start to learn that there is a serious misconception about the financial motives of her Husband. (He is *NOT* out for money and has proved that over and over again)

Also, you will start to learn that the Schindler (her family) are the ones who will now start to seek their fortune. They're selling of the names of their supporters for financial gain is a disgusting start.

I'll be very surprised if you see her Husband doing this kind of shit. If you ask me, he's the only one interested in obtaining what Terri really wanted. So, major props to this guy for sticking with it. I'm sure he's very sad - but I'm sure he is elated that a nightmare he never asked for is finally over.

[Z_Fan]

OK...

Just one more thing to add.

This is my FAVORITE. Because everyone seems to think that this is her husbands CHOICE and in fact, it is her CHOICE. And for the last five years, there has been *NOTHING* he could do to stop the process even if he wanted.

In the context of motive for money...with regards to offers made to Mr. Schiavo to cease and desist...

"These offers may have been made under the misconception that the removal of Mrs. Schiavo's feeding tube remains simply a matter of Mr. Schiavo's choice. It was ruled in February 2000 that Mrs. Schiavo would choose to have the tube removed, and Michael Schiavo does not have legal standing to overrule this legal determination."

So, blame the courts. LOL.

[WillChan]

I agree with you about the cognitive thought, but her parents held the opposite viewpoint from her husband. I'm just mentioning that this test would have stopped the argument. It's been used before on other comatosed patients, not saying it's 100 percent effective but it would have made it clear for both sides without using just doctors opinions.
See your link point 5.2, they never used a FMRI.

Again, I agree with you, and I agree with her husband for going ahead and asking for an autopsy to give more details about what happened.

As for you previos post, a "living will" would handle the "types of circumstances" like in this case. I am also a firm beleiver n keeping the judicial and politcal system disparate. After all that's the whole point of having them.

[Made_To_Love]

Incase anybody cares here is majority of what it is myth and what is truth about this sad ordeal, she was pretty alive for some people who thought she was pretty much dead, watch the videos of her responding to voices and music www.terrisfight.org

[WillChan]

Originally posted by Made_To_Love
Incase anybody cares here is majority of what it is myth and what is truth about this sad ordeal, she was pretty alive for some people who thought she was pretty much dead, watch the videos of her responding to voices and music www.terrisfight.org

ok she has responses to outside stimuli. Does it mean that she had cognitive ability? The best way to test for cognitive brain process is throught a FRMI.