Do you think God created Man? [Archive] - Beyond.ca - Car Forums

civicrider

04-17-2005, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by Celica TVS3
I think anyone who belives in creation has been blinded by church propaganda. Belivers like to use things science has yet to explain as proof or support for the existence of god.

I think the most interesting part of human evolution is the jump from ammino acids to life. But just because science doesn't have a solid explination doesn't mean god made it happen.

haha exactaly, religion in general is a big cult that is brainwashing people to belive in them and make people follow laws within the country. think about the ten comandments or whatever they are. if they can get the majority of the people to follow those they will be cooperating with the law in their country and have less problems. christians = cant think for themselves.

liquid1010

04-17-2005, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
Because all you creationists are the same. Uneducated yet opinionated.

http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/heid.htm

This has got to be one of the most useless posts I have ever read. GTS, you're hilarious. Pseudo, wanna-be intellectual....

debate, don't make ignorant and useless posts.

GTS Jeff

04-17-2005, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by liquid1010

This has got to be one of the most useless posts I have ever read. GTS, you're hilarious. Pseudo, wanna-be intellectual....

debate, don't make ignorant and useless posts. I posted a link to a species that falls between chimps and humans. The reason we don't see half human/half-apes is because they went extinct a long time ago, but we do have their remains.

Do you think it's really possible for me to properly explain evolution in one post, no matter how long it is? If you want to talk about ignorant, then isn't it quite ignorant of you to expect me to condense 3 university courses on evolution into one post? If you want to talk about useless, then where's your ever so useful contribution to this thread?

turbotrip

04-17-2005, 02:03 PM

u say that the half human half apes went extinct, but wouldnt some apes still be evolving all the time if thats how we came about? so shouldnt there still be apes which are partly evolved/half evolved/and almost completely human in existence if evolution is how humans were created?

Tyler883

04-17-2005, 02:22 PM

When the first space mission reached the moon, scientist were expecting to find layers of space dust as much as 17 feet thick........

instead, they found is was more like an inch or so, which appearantly is consistent with about 6 thousand years of space dust......

.............hmmm, maybe the creationists might be right.

GTS Jeff

04-17-2005, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by turbotrip
u say that the half human half apes went extinct, but wouldnt some apes still be evolving all the time if thats how we came about? so shouldnt there still be apes which are partly evolved/half evolved/and almost completely human in existence if evolution is how humans were created? Buddy as I said, I really don't think I can regurgitate something that took 3 courses to be caught to me. I'll answer your question, but all it will do is raise yet another question and so on and so on.

Anyway, evolution is not about an ape slowly morphing into a human. Anyway, apes are constantly evolving, it's just that most of what's going on takes so long to happen with apes (cuz of their long life span) that we can't really see it in action. For organisms with shorter life spans, like insects or bacteria or virii, we can and do see evolution in progress. A good example are superbug bacteria that keep evolving resistances to antibiotics.

The way it worked for humans is that a group of apes in Africa got separated by some rift, and the ones on the forested side evolved into chimps and the ones on the plains side gave rise to the Homo genus. At first, these homo/chimp ancestors were still able to interbreed, but as hundreds of thousands of years passed, their genetic differences accumulated from 4 things (mutation, natural selection, sexual selection, and migration) so much that the two groups could longer interbreed, hence two new species. Basically, when the rift occurred, the two groups were subject to different conditions and took different evolutionary paths to produce two different species.

Now do you guys see what I mean when I say that creationists are uneducated yet opinionated? Each and every single creationist argument is based upon a flawed understanding of evolution. Believe me, I spent a lot of time studying and being tested on creationist arguments against evolution.

little_wan

04-17-2005, 02:36 PM

There's also the whole controversy with the dinosaur bone marrow they found. DNA isn't suppose to survive 10,000 years, and yet now we have a sample of it from supposedly 70 million years ago, which is leading to the question is Earth 4.5 billion years old or considerably younger?
Also what i've always wondered is evolution has acted on millions of species throughout its time, and never has it evolved something that couldn't be balanced out...except for humans. Whats behind our evolution that seems to give us a benefit over EVERYTHING instead of just one aspect of survival...like poisonous fangs or something.

GTS Jeff

04-17-2005, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by Tyler883
When the first space mission reached the moon, scientist were expecting to find layers of space dust as much as 17 feet thick........

instead, they found is was more like an inch or so, which appearantly is consistent with about 6 thousand years of space dust......

.............hmmm, maybe the creationists might be right. Pure BS. For one, there's no such thing as "space dust." :)

Second, the Earth didn't always have a satellite. Moon formation occurred 4.25 billion years ago, as supported by crater density dating (of the far side of the moon, which hasn't experienced any volcanic activity) and radiometric dating of moon material.

Space dust. :rofl:

three.eighteen.

04-17-2005, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by Ed the SOHC

Is it true that the Catholics created the Pope? I don't recall reading about the Pope in the Bible. (this is not meant to be a flame)

although i'm more on the evolutionary side...yes catholics created the pope, jesus made peter the foundation on which his church was built, peter was the first pope

I believe, that we are a product of evolution, but the phenomenon of simple life and its subsequent products are guided indirectly by a higher power. The Gods that people worship are figureheads of the energy/force/whatever you wanna call it that lead evolution to this point (and beyond)

GTS Jeff

04-17-2005, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by little_wan
There's also the whole controversy with the dinosaur bone marrow they found. DNA isn't suppose to survive 10,000 years, and yet now we have a sample of it from supposedly 70 million years ago, which is leading to the question is Earth 4.5 billion years old or considerably younger?DNA longevity quite obviously is determined by its condition of preservation, for example, the DNA in your cum stained sock probably lasts a few hours. You can't base an argument on circumstantial evidence. Well you can, but only in a church.

Originally posted by little_wan
Also what i've always wondered is evolution has acted on millions of species throughout its time, and never has it evolved something that couldn't be balanced out...except for humans. Whats behind our evolution that seems to give us a benefit over EVERYTHING instead of just one aspect of survival...like poisonous fangs or something. LOL evolution isn't like the Force from Star Wars. There's no guiding force behind it. It's merely a result of different genetic changing pressures. It makes a lot of things that aren't "balanced out" such as HIV, humans, polar bears, etc etc.

Ben

04-17-2005, 02:47 PM

"People (the church folk) who talk in metaphors outta shampoo my crotch" - Jack Nicholson from As Good As It Gets.

I swear the same basic thread principle comes up at least ones a month on this forum.

DARWIN is my God. :rolleyes:

liquid1010

04-17-2005, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
I posted a link to a species that falls between chimps and humans. The reason we don't see half human/half-apes is because they went extinct a long time ago, but we do have their remains.

Do you think it's really possible for me to properly explain evolution in one post, no matter how long it is? If you want to talk about ignorant, then isn't it quite ignorant of you to expect me to condense 3 university courses on evolution into one post? If you want to talk about useless, then where's your ever so useful contribution to this thread?

The problem with you GTS, is the fact that you think you're smarter than you really are. So you took three whole classes on evolution.... would you like a hero cookie for that? Taking three pidly B.Sc courses hardly makes you any kind of expert on anything. You talk as if you know it all... and yet even guys like Einstein and Stephen Hawking acknowledge the existance of God; and excuse my opinion.... but both of them are smarter than you.

The problem with modern science in my opinion, is that we put to much faith in what we know to date. The entire premise of science is to refute itself... is it not. Thus, it's constantly in a state of change, and therebye peoples opinions and thoughts are changing with it. I love science, and it has a ton to offer.... but it is still full of human error. The wonderful thing about scientists is that they choose to believe what they want, and ignore what doesn't fit. Look at the speed of light for example. Science knows that there is something faster than it.... but choose to ignore that for the sake of convenience. In the same way i have never heard an adequate and completely encompasing explanation of the evolution from binary fission, to compex sexual Meosis. Also... the problem with evolution is that there is no mechasnism for beneficial mutation... and no real example fo complex beneficial mutation has ever been seen. Seen an speciation lately?

As the mathematician Hoyle put it: "The likelihood of the formation of life from inanimate matter is one to a number with 40 thousand zeros after it."

Darkane

04-17-2005, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
Pure BS. For one, there's no such thing as "space dust." :)

Second, the Earth didn't always have a satellite. Moon formation occurred 4.25 billion years ago, as supported by crater density dating (of the far side of the moon, which hasn't experienced any volcanic activity) and radiometric dating of moon material.

Space dust. :rofl:

Actually they aren't sure how old the moon really is. The theory behind its creation was a massive asteroid hitting the earth and seperating a massive part. The remaining earths' gravity held it in orbit and it formed "round" like we see it now. Reason scientists belive this is because The core of the moon is actually the second layer of our earth under our crust. the moon holds no metallic core or anything like a planet.

And.. the moon never had any volcanoes.. :dunno:
The far side only reflects the side never hit by the sun because it has a Sync. Orbit with the earth and sun.

yay i remeber something from Astronomy :thumbsup:

little_wan

04-17-2005, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
DNA longevity quite obviously is determined by its condition of preservation, for example, the DNA in your cum stained sock probably lasts a few hours. You can't base an argument on circumstantial evidence. Well you can, but only in a church.

LOL evolution isn't like the Force from Star Wars. There's no guiding force behind it. It's merely a result of different genetic changing pressures. It makes a lot of things that aren't "balanced out" such as HIV, humans, polar bears, etc etc.

DNA longevity despite any natural preserving should be around 10,000 years. that's what scientists have said, not me. That's why its controversy.
And who said evolution doesn't tend to balance? It's called co evolution. Ex: Plants developed apicla meristem dominance to grow higher to get more sun and avoid predation...insects evolved flight to get at it. The point is there was a "pressure" that increased the likely hood of a certain mutation to become more succesful. The advantage humans have over all species seems to be out of place...as in we must have been hit with some crazy ass mutation for us to stray so far away from other organisms.
And finally, i'm just bringing up points and questions...there's no need to undermine them with sci-fi refrences.

DEREK57

04-17-2005, 03:06 PM

GTS Jeff

04-17-2005, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by liquid1010

The problem with your GTS, is the fact that you think you're smarter than you really are. So you took three whole classes on evolution.... would you like a hero cookie for that? Taking three pidly B.Sc courses hardly makes you any kind of expert on anything. You talk as if you know it all... and yet even guys like Einstein and Stephen Hawking acknowledge the existance of God; and excuse my opinion.... but both of them are smarter than you.

The problem with modern science in my opinion, is that we put to much faith in what we know to date. The entire premise of science is to refute itself... is it not. Thus, it's constantly in a state of change, and therebye peoples opinions and thoughts are changing with it. I love science, and it has a ton to offer.... but it is still full of human error. The wonderful thing about scientists is that they choose to believe what they want, and ignore what doesn't fit. Look at the speed of light for example. Science knows that there is something faster than it.... but choose to ignore that for the sake of convenience. In the same way i have never heard an adequate and completely encompasing explanation of the evolution from binary fission, to compex sexual Meosis. Also... the problem with evolution is that there is no mechasnism for beneficial mutation... and no real example fo complex beneficial mutation has ever been seen. Seen an speciation lately?

As the mathematician Hoyle put it: "The likelihood of the formation of life from inanimate matter is one to a number with 40 thousand zeros after it." I'm not saying that three undergraduate courses make me smarter than everyone, I'm saying it makes me more educated than most people in regards to evolution. Anyway, Einstein was a jew, so I guess that makes Judaism the superior religion according to you?

Science does refute itself, but only with empirical evidence - which isn't "space dust" for example. Scientists don't just "ignore" what doesn't fit, they constantly try to find new theories to explain those anomalies. Our Solar System Geology prof ALWAYS reminds us that the current Solar Nebular hypothesis has many holes and that scientists everywhere are working on figuring out a better model with less holes in it. Similarly, no one is "ignoring" the speed of light limit, that's just a model proposed by Einstein that many scientists are working to disprove (wtf do you think M-theory is???) As for your gripes about not being taught binary fission or meiosis properly, you should take that up with your incompetent high school teachers. For fuck's sake, you can't even spell meiosis!!

And for your criticism of evolution, the driving mechanism for beneficial evolution is survival of the fittest. What this means is that the ones with better evolved adaptations will catch more fish and make more babies than the ones with shitty adaptations. There are a TON of cases of current speciation. HIV, superbug bacteria, drosophila in the Hawaiian islands, Darwin's finches in the Galapagos to name a few.

Anyway, this is going nowhere, so I'll back down and let you backwards creationists have your heyday with this thread now.

DEREK57

04-17-2005, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by civicrider

haha exactaly, religion in general is a big cult that is brainwashing people to belive in them and make people follow laws within the country. think about the ten comandments or whatever they are. if they can get the majority of the people to follow those they will be cooperating with the law in their country and have less problems. christians = cant think for themselves.
Sorry for trying to rain on your intellectual/moral superiority parade, but do you have a reason for this?

I mean if you guys are arrogant enough to say that other people (whom you most likely know nothing about) are 'brain washed' and 'cant think for themselves' (I suggest you look up some readings by Descartes), surely you must have some reason, no?

History has shown plenty of free-thinking, and intellectual Christians...but I'm sure a few annecdotes, or things you have learnt (no doubt soley from thinking for yourself) disprove all of this. :rolleyes:

GTS Jeff

04-17-2005, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by little_wan

DNA longevity despite any natural preserving should be around 10,000 years. that's what scientists have said, not me. That's why its controversy.
And who said evolution doesn't tend to balance? It's called co evolution. Ex: Plants developed apicla meristem dominance to grow higher to get more sun and avoid predation...insects evolved flight to get at it. The point is there was a "pressure" that increased the likely hood of a certain mutation to become more succesful. The advantage humans have over all species seems to be out of place...as in we must have been hit with some crazy ass mutation for us to stray so far away from other organisms.
And finally, i'm just bringing up points and questions...there's no need to undermine them with sci-fi refrences.

Insects didn't evolve flight to get at the flowers haha. Some insects happened to mutate wings, which gave them an advantage in breeding. There's a distinction.

And the "crazy ass mutation" for humans is obviously brain size, though the selection pressure for that I do not know. I've never taken any anthro classes before.

The force is strong with you...

Originally posted by DEREK57

Are you saying theres not a massive amount of dust in space?

Not at all. But it's not all just wafting towards the moon and accumulating dust bunnies. :rofl:

OK this is the last post, I promise. The funny thing is that I need to go study for the aforementioned Solar System Geology final. :D

Gondi Stylez

04-17-2005, 03:14 PM

Well this thread is getting interesting! Im in total agreeance with Jeff since I have also taken a couple of evolution classes and it is very hard to understand the material dpeneding on your religious background.

I DO NOT beleive that God created man. I think that is the biggest load of monkey crap. Now, for arguments sake if God DID create man then he must have gon through a HELL OF A LOT OF TROUBLE to create us and every other living organisms. The bible says that the Earth is 6000 years old which is COMPLETE BS. Our DNA is very complex, gene expression, transcription and translation of our genome is not very efficent but it works. There are disticnt lines of evidence that favor evolution and both of Darwins therories. The development of the amnotic egg, cutaneous respiration, cephalzation etc. etc.... all shows that evolution is non-stop and genes are always being slected for even though they may not be expressed as a phenotype.

The book that Toma posted "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins talks about viruses and how they evolved in realtion to bacteria and cells. Viruses are not alive and that is a big debate in the scientific community with relation to eveolution.

PS - For the guy who said we eveolved from apes, your a moron!We evolved from a common hominoid ancestor and branched off. We are all primates but of different species. Read the link Jeff posted and you may have a clearer image.

ninjak84

04-17-2005, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by little_wan
Ex: Plants developed apicla meristem dominance to grow higher to get more sun and avoid predation...

What the hell?
Do some more reading on the shoot apical meristem, and hormonal control in angiosperms.

Gondi Stylez

04-17-2005, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by ninjak84

What the hell?
Do some more reading on the shoot apical meristem, and hormonal control in angiosperms.

haha i was just gonna post that!

DEREK57

04-17-2005, 03:21 PM

I havnt decided on creationism or evolution...Im sort of leaning towards a mix. Though I am not very interested, or educated in this issue, I have noticed an odd thing. It seems that all the evolutionary evidence seems to be based on genetics, and its possibilities. So basically the idea that evolution theoritically could have happened, and so on. But I have seen very little evidence, fossil and such, that shows that it actually did take place to the extent many would have us believe. :dunno:

Gondi Stylez

04-17-2005, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by DEREK57
I havnt decided on creationism or evolution...Im sort of leaning towards a mix. Though I am not very interested, or educated in this issue, I have noticed an odd thing. It seems that all the evolutionary evidence seems to be based on genetics, and its possibilities. So basically the idea that evolution theoritically could have happened, and so on. But I have seen very little evidence, fossil and such, that shows that it actually did take place to the extent many would have us believe. :dunno:

Well isntead of typing a whole paragraph to explain what I think your talking about, got to the public library or even the U of C or MRC libraries and rent a DVD set called "The Shape of Life"... all will be explained!

mo_virgin

04-17-2005, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by Gondi Stylez
Well this thread is getting interesting! Im in total agreeance with Jeff since I have also taken a couple of evolution classes and it is very hard to understand the material dpeneding on your religious background.

Its very hard to understand faith and religion dpeneding on if your science background. I don't expect people who are not of faith to understand anything about faith.

Ben - Darwin is your God? ... thats pretty sad.

civicrider

04-17-2005, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by DEREK57

Sorry for trying to rain on your intellectual/moral superiority parade, but do you have a reason for this?

I mean if you guys are arrogant enough to say that other people (whom you most likely know nothing about) are 'brain washed' and 'cant think for themselves' (I suggest you look up some readings by Descartes), surely you must have some reason, no?

History has shown plenty of free-thinking, and intellectual Christians...but I'm sure a few annecdotes, or things you have learnt (no doubt soley from thinking for yourself) disprove all of this. :rolleyes:

they can be free thinking except when it comes to people who dont belive in what they do. every christian i have met instantly thinks because you dont belive in god your going to hell and your wrong. they are so blind to everyone else and anything else, just straight forward, if you dont do what god wants your bad. so dumb:rolleyes:

little_wan

04-17-2005, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by GTS Jeff

Insects didn't evolve flight to get at the flowers haha. Some insects happened to mutate wings, which gave them an advantage in breeding. There's a distinction.

And the "crazy ass mutation" for humans is obviously brain size, though the selection pressure for that I do not know. I've never taken any anthro classes before.

The force is strong with you...

Not at all. But it's not all just wafting towards the moon and accumulating dust bunnies. :rofl:

OK this is the last post, I promise. The funny thing is that I need to go study for the aforementioned Solar System Geology final. :D

The point, in evolution, there is no point to anything. Just probability of survival based on mutation. So cause and effect. I'm not sure if you've noticed...but everything in regards to evolution is "such and such PROBABLY happened because of such and such". Most people will walk out of a science admitting there's very little we know. For some reason you seem to walk out thinking you have the answers to everything. I'm not saying evolution is wrong, i'm not saying God is right. There's so much evidence to be considered. ALSO...anyone ever stop to think that maybe God could be behind evolution? Myabe, maybe not. Point is if i said that, no one could prove me right or wrong.

DEREK57

04-17-2005, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by civicrider

they can be free thinking except when it comes to people who dont belive in what they do. every christian i have met instantly thinks because you dont belive in god your going to hell and your wrong. they are so blind to everyone else and anything else, just straight forward, if you dont do what god wants your bad. so dumb:rolleyes:

Umm you do see the hypocracy of what you're typing dont you?

You are saying Christians are wrong, and brainwashed. And then backing it up by saying that Christians just automatically think you are wrong. There are plenty of ignorant Christians, just as their are plenty of ignorant Muslims, and Aethiests, and so on. So basically theyre are ignorant people.

Now your real mission, instead of just mouthing off a religion which you dont understand, is for yourself not to be one of those ignorant people.

DEREK57

04-17-2005, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Gondi Stylez

Well isntead of typing a whole paragraph to explain what I think your talking about, got to the public library or even the U of C or MRC libraries and rent a DVD set called "The Shape of Life"... all will be explained!

Lol, I guess that post wasnt exactly clear. I might give those DVD's a shot during the summer. Is it mostly on genetics? If so I find it interesting, but I dont see how it can be convincing as evidence of macro evolution.

tulit

04-17-2005, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by DEREK57
It seems that all the evolutionary evidence seems to be based on genetics, and its possibilities. So basically the idea that evolution theoritically could have happened, and so on. But I have seen very little evidence, fossil and such, that shows that it actually did take place to the extent many would have us believe. :dunno:

Have you ignored almost everything in this thread? We have all kinds of observations that actually prove this. I think Jeffs bacteria evolution should make this a open and shut case (we can observe the process as it's happening). It's easy to see the bacterial didn't instantaneously change before us because god made them to.

But by that argument, what EVIDENCE is there that creationism is the answer to how everything came about? All they have is a story (the bible) someone wrote a few thousand years ago?

Which bring me to a question (an honest question -- I really don't know the answer to this) - but who actually wrote the bible? And how did this person (or people) have such a fundemental understanding on the origins of everything?

Celica TVS3

04-17-2005, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by liquid1010

You talk as if you know it all... and yet even guys like Einstein ... acknowledge the existance of God; and excuse my opinion.... but both of them are smarter than you.

This shows exactly how religious people twist the truth to make it support what they believe. Whenever the Mormons come to my door they always bring this up. Do a quick search on the internet and find out what Einstein really said about God. Summary: He mentioned God on many occasions but he was using God as a metaphor for universal order.

civicrider

04-17-2005, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by DEREK57

Umm you do see the hypocracy of what you're typing dont you?

You are saying Christians are wrong, and brainwashed. And then backing it up by saying that Christians just automatically think you are wrong. There are plenty of ignorant Christians, just as their are plenty of ignorant Muslims, and Aethiests, and so on. So basically theyre are ignorant people.

Now your real mission, instead of just mouthing off a religion which you dont understand, is for yourself not to be one of those ignorant people.

i wasnt ignorant until i ran into all these christians, it just pisses me off too much so im going to be an asshole back, they dont accept me so i odnt accept them simple as that

Gondi Stylez

04-17-2005, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by DEREK57

Lol, I guess that post wasnt exactly clear. I might give those DVD's a shot during the summer. Is it mostly on genetics? If so I find it interesting, but I dont see how it can be convincing as evidence of macro evolution.

it talks about both... genetics and evolution convergent evolution as well. It is very interesting and beautifully put together!

Gondi Stylez

04-17-2005, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by little_wan

The point, in evolution, there is no point to anything. Just probability of survival based on mutation. So cause and effect. I'm not sure if you've noticed...but everything in regards to evolution is "such and such PROBABLY happened because of such and such". Most people will walk out of a science admitting there's very little we know. For some reason you seem to walk out thinking you have the answers to everything. I'm not saying evolution is wrong, i'm not saying God is right. There's so much evidence to be considered. ALSO...anyone ever stop to think that maybe God could be behind evolution? Myabe, maybe not. Point is if i said that, no one could prove me right or wrong.

EVOLUTION IS NOT GOAL ORIENTED!!!

plus there is no basis for what has be written in the Bible, Q'uran or Tora. It is all highly theoretical!!

Darkane

04-17-2005, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by tulit

Which bring me to a question (an honest question -- I really don't know the answer to this) - but who actually wrote the bible? And how did this person (or people) have such a fundemental understanding on the origins of everything?

Im not sure about the old testament (which I think is also the Torah) But the new testemant was written by Jesus' Disciples or mainly the Four - Luke, Mathew, Mark, and John. As well Included are other scriptures and basically the life of christ as a human.. (I think thats how it was So dont quote me) :dunno:

Stratus_Power

04-17-2005, 05:06 PM

Here's a quote from a book called God's Debris

"Evoluation isn't a cause of anything; it's an observation, a way of putting things in categories. Evolution says nothing about causes."

charizard

04-17-2005, 05:23 PM

God created man
im not gonna bother trying to explain things which i cannot explain very well, instead here's a site that has exact quotes out of the Quran which was written several thousands of years ago which are extremely relevent today. If we evolved how did people 1000's of years ago know what science would be discovering today, how did a holy book which was written 1000's of years ago and never been changed contain information that just now we are being able to prove?

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com

charizard

04-17-2005, 05:26 PM

the dvd for that explains everything really well too

ehos

04-17-2005, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by Celica TVS3

I think the most interesting part of human evolution is the jump from ammino acids to life. But just because science doesn't have a solid explination doesn't mean god made it happen.

Then what created the aa's? Then what created them? And so on and so on to the first mover.

Who or what is that? Who created the universe? (Big Bang? Who set off the big bang?)

I believe in science (BSc), but I can also believe in God. Why? Because if you could explain 'God' then, guess what, YOU would be God.

Belief in God is faith. Belief in Science is reasoning. You can NEVER get a creationist to believe in evolution on reasoning alone. You would have to afflict his faith.

(I'm 100% an evolutionist, there is no basis in my faith or reasoning to support creationism).

tulit

04-17-2005, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by charizard
God created man
im not gonna bother trying to explain things which i cannot explain very well, instead here's a site that has exact quotes out of the Quran which was written several thousands of years ago which are extremely relevent today. If we evolved how did people 1000's of years ago know what science would be discovering today, how did a holy book which was written 1000's of years ago and never been changed contain information that just now we are being able to prove?

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com

The problem with these "prophecies" is that they predict crap all. All we do is take these texts and find events in history that match up with what was written a long time ago or follows some convoluted flow of logic to make things “add up”. They then say "oh wow, they predicted the future".

If on the otherhand, by reading what was written (reading it today) and be-able to say precisely what will happen tomorrow, then that’s prophecy. None of this stuff has been able to do this. Same problem with people like Nostradamus.

All god is is a convinient way for humans to explain something they haven't been able to through normal rational thought yet.

charizard

04-17-2005, 06:09 PM

tulit, that website doesnt explain everything in detail, watch the dvd (check it out from a library or something) before you make that judgement

the dvd explains in detail each prediction in the book and how most of them have already come true. that website just summarized the points. And also, the Quran doesnt only guess the future it also explains how the universe came to be, what goes on during pregnancy and birth 1000's of years before modern medicine was able to explain everything.

liquid1010

04-17-2005, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
[B] I'm not saying that three undergraduate courses make me smarter than everyone, I'm saying it makes me more educated than most people in regards to evolution. Anyway, Einstein was a jew, so I guess that makes Judaism the superior religion according to you?

Science does refute itself, but only with empirical evidence - which isn't "space dust" for example.

What exactly is that supposed to tell me? Nothing! You think way to highly of yourself GTS.

Scientists don't just "ignore" what doesn't fit, they constantly try to find new theories to explain those anomalies. Our Solar System Geology prof ALWAYS reminds us that the current Solar Nebular hypothesis has many holes and that scientists everywhere are working on figuring out a better model with less holes in it. Similarly, no one is "ignoring" the speed of light limit, that's just a model proposed by Einstein that many scientists are working to disprove (wtf do you think M-theory is???) As for your gripes about not being taught binary fission or meiosis properly, you should take that up with your incompetent high school teachers. For fuck's sake, you can't even spell meiosis!!

Actually evolution science has chosen to ignore alot of things, and perhaps you should learn that before saying that all creationists are dumber than you. (which although not stated is rather strongly implied). I'm currently reading a book by where they discuss how there can be a leap from Binary Fission to Sexual Meiosis, and as far as I've read.... there can be no real mechanism for that change. If you chose to repeat the typical "it was done through the use of ultraviolet light" so be it, but that explanation leaves many questions un-answered. BTW... if you haven't noticed yet.... I finished HS a long time ago.

And for your criticism of evolution, the driving mechanism for beneficial evolution is survival of the fittest. What this means is that the ones with better evolved adaptations will catch more fish and make more babies than the ones with shitty adaptations. There are a TON of cases of current speciation. HIV, superbug bacteria, drosophila in the Hawaiian islands, Darwin's finches in the Galapagos to name a few.

You must have read the whole first chapter of your grade ten science book for that answer. There is a HUGE difference between slight variations of micro-evolution, and the process of speciation. Massive DNA changes don't happen through slight adaptation.... and even if they did... they need a mechanism for change. Survival of the fittest is simply a "layman" phrase which lacks much in the way of substance. Mechanism is slightly deeper.

There is more to this debate about the existance of God, and creation of that mere science too. Science is nothing more than a human venture to try and understand what we can about the world that was in existance before we ever became a part of it. The proof of God lies deeper than "creation". Look at the morality for example. Morality is not, although some like to argue this, a mere arbitrary lump in the human psyche.

liquid1010

04-17-2005, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by Celica TVS3

This shows exactly how religious people twist the truth to make it support what they believe. Whenever the Mormons come to my door they always bring this up. Do a quick search on the internet and find out what Einstein really said about God. Summary: He mentioned God on many occasions but he was using God as a metaphor for universal order.

UMMM nope. You just made youself look like an idiot. I quote: "I want to know God's thoughts, the rest are merely details". That's from Einstein.

Also, it was Einstein is argued that Quantum Physics was based on a faulty premise, because he didn't believe God would play dice with the Universe. Perhaps it's time you learn what you're talking about.

liquid1010

04-17-2005, 07:02 PM

Audio_Rookie

04-17-2005, 07:12 PM

there was a creator of matter and movement wich resulted in the creation of man.

Unfortunately, we can only use science in the universe to the point of 1 x 10^-43 seconds, for that time when the universe was first created the law of cosmic censorship stops us....damn cosmic censorship. we can use science for 13 billion years (age of universe) but not eh first 1 x 10^-43 seconds.

I am writing a philosophy paper of the main argument for gods existance, it sucks because I am a science major....ancient greek philosophy just dosnt swing with modern science....

sexualbanana

04-17-2005, 07:57 PM

I really can't say that I'm either creationist or evolutionist. I may say that I am slightly skewed towards the side of evolutionist however.

My basis for this reasoning (and I fully admit I'm no expert) is this:
1.) Evolution makes a little more sense in my opinion. It is prevalent in many of our everyday activities. For instance, genetic supremacy (couldn't think of any other way to put it). The goal of our lives I believe is to simply procreate to ensure survival of our species. In order to do this, we want to mate with the "Alpha male/females" who posess certain attributes that we feel will progress the species. For example, guys want the hottest girl they can possibly get (excluding the whole love thing). What does this hope to create? An even better looking offspring. Females often want the most athletic or the smartest male. What does that create? An even more athletic or intelligent offspring. So personally, I think it's more obvious.

2.) To believe that God created Man (either as a byproduct or not), you have to believe in an omnipresent being that is expert in biology, chemistry, physics, mathematics, psychology, neurophysiology, kinesiolgy, engineering, and the list goes on and on. To clarify, by expert I mean that "God" must know everything because not a single human being can say they know everything about a particular subject because they are still discovering new things every day. Creationists may feel that this "expertise" is what makes God, I think that it is quite improbable, and frankly improbable.

charizard

04-17-2005, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by liquid1010

I have a quick question about the Muslim faith if you don't mind me asking. In your faith a man cannot be a prophet unless 100% of his prophecies come true. Now Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, and yet he himself said he was God. Now aren't you contradicting yourself?

now im no scholar but heres what i know. First of all in the Muslim faith Muhammed (p.b.u.h.) was the last prophet. Also, prophets in Islam are not people who make prophecies, but people who convey the message of God. Yes Muslim's do believe that Jesus was a prophet, yet it is not written anywhere that i have read that Jesus considered himself God. I dont have all the knowledge or information so the above might have some minor errors, but I think for the most part its correct.

turbotrip

04-17-2005, 08:29 PM

^:werd: christians believe jesus called himself a god, while muslims believe that he said he wasnt

tulit

04-17-2005, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by charizard
tulit, that website doesnt explain everything in detail, watch the dvd (check it out from a library or something) before you make that judgement

the dvd explains in detail each prediction in the book and how most of them have already come true. that website just summarized the points. And also, the Quran doesnt only guess the future it also explains how the universe came to be, what goes on during pregnancy and birth 1000's of years before modern medicine was able to explain everything.

I haven't watched the DVD. But my guess as to their predictions is exactly what I was talking about.

From a quick scan of the site, one of their major points is the landing of man on the moon. They translated "The Hour [has drawn near] and the moon has split." into "Man lands on the moon in '69" with some addition of the characters? to end up with a sum of 1969.

Now let me ask you this. Pretend its 1920. You read "The Hour [has drawn near] and the moon has split." How does this predict to you that man will land on the moon in 1969??? It doesn't. A real prophecy would read "man lands on the moon in 1969". If ANYONE read that in 1920, theyd just be like "what the hell does that mean???"

Does the DVD add some insight into how this prediction is actually a prediction that the website doesn't offer? I bet its explanation is identical.

This just all means that the "predictions" are just manipulated to match actual historic events. All "prophets" operate this way. They can't predict anything. They make vague references to something and AFTER the event, someone comes along and finds historic events that fit what they wrote.

Another fundemental flaw with the whole creationist theory is that don't different religions describe the process in which we came to be differently? I don't even think they can agree on who/what god really is. So what now? Who's right?? I think we can agree we are all apart of the same world, so that means at least every religion is wrong except one. Even then, whats to say that they aren't all wrong, and the "true" prophets that know the true origins of the universe haven't come along yet? Maybe god created evolution ;)

charizard

04-17-2005, 09:14 PM

nah, the dvd's predictions are not exactly what you were talking about. Another thing, i dont know exactly where you were looking for these predictions of yours but the link for the predictions is http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/predictions_index.html
I admit the website is quite vague in explaining this stuff but the dvd does a good job in explaining it contrary to your belief. Many of these quotes that they have up are picked right out of the Quran without explaining what was being talked about all around the quotes making it extremely difficult to understand the quotes for people who dont know what the whole context is.

hollywood_35

04-17-2005, 09:30 PM

I myself believe in evolution. Sure church was created to worship a god, but going back into the history books churches were created to get money. They owned all the land, collected tithes and were basically level powered with the goverment. My theory is they used the "beliefs" of people back then to collect money. This may not be true but it's just what I think.

But then there's the extreme difference in beliefs umong religions. There are tons of different theories, each religion different to explain the way things came to be. That's why there is so much violence in the middle east, because the two main religions believe the other one is wrong, and they believe in their religion so much they are willing to strap bombs to themselves to defend it.

I just think evolution is something that is universal, we all evolved from a simple life form over millions of years.You can't change that up and say there were 71 bacteria, and they all came to a supper and they ate, then decided to evolve.

Just my two cents. :dunno:

BumpinTalon

04-17-2005, 09:35 PM

as I see it, if an infinite number of monkies banging on an infinite number of typewriters will eventually write the complete works of Shakespeare, the same thing happened with evolution...
there was a vast amount of single cell organisms and whatnot back then, so it was bound to happen that one would evolve into a fish, etc etc, grow legs or something, get onto land, and then millions of more coincedences happened to make us what we are today... ie, beings intelligent enough to wonder how the hell we got here and where we came from and why it happened.
religion has always just been an extension of the government, and on some other levels primitive explanations for natural events (ie. various gods caused earthquakes, floods, famine and plagues).
really, the scope of the issue is too vast for anyone to really figure it out... we'd need some kind of singular consciousness or collective mind or something. people will just continue hypothesizing forever and ever and until we make a time machine, we will never know for sure exactly what happened to make everything as it is today.

we should look to the future instead of wasting brilliant minds on snooping around our past. take all the geniuses divising theories of evolution and set them to solving world hunger. actually, don't do that... because with all this health care shit we have nowadays, we have completely stalled the process of evolution since survival of the strongest doesn't really apply anymore. everybody has kids, even mentally handicapped people, paralyzed people, blind people or deaf people and mutes. the strong genes are being watered down. I guess you could say I'm a Darwinist.

Toms-SC

04-17-2005, 09:36 PM

Why look all deep into this? Who gives a shit, we are here now and thats what counts.

Edit: But if I have to say who created 'man', the USA did :rolleyes:

ehos

04-17-2005, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by Audio_Rookie

I am writing a philosophy paper of the main argument for gods existance, it sucks because I am a science major....ancient greek philosophy just dosnt swing with modern science....

What is philosophy? The love of knowledge.
What is Science? The love of knowledge.

To say philosophy doesn't jive with science is just taking a very very narrow viewpoint.

Audio_Rookie

04-17-2005, 10:45 PM

let me rephrase that.....im writing a paper on the views of god with ancient philosophy, when people thought the planets circled the sun in epi-cycles and the universe was infinitely large.

DEREK57

04-17-2005, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by tulit

Have you ignored almost everything in this thread? We have all kinds of observations that actually prove this. I think Jeffs bacteria evolution should make this a open and shut case (we can observe the process as it's happening).
Look at my post...Im pretty sure it said something about 'macro'-evolution.

It's easy to see the bacterial didn't instantaneously change before us because god made them to.
It is!?!?! How do you figure?

But by that argument, what EVIDENCE is there that creationism is the answer to how everything came about? All they have is a story (the bible) someone wrote a few thousand years ago?

Which bring me to a question (an honest question -- I really don't know the answer to this) - but who actually wrote the bible? And how did this person (or people) have such a fundemental understanding on the origins of everything?

It is considered God revealing himself through many men. Of course the men are limited in knowledge and understanding, especially at that time, which would account for why the Creation story is extremely simple.

DEREK57

04-17-2005, 11:26 PM

Originally posted by civicrider

i wasnt ignorant until i ran into all these christians, it just pisses me off too much so im going to be an asshole back, they dont accept me so i odnt accept them simple as that

So you met a few Christians you didnt like, therefore Christianity is fundamentally flawed, and Christians are ignorant and brainwashed????

This is the type of stellar reasoning that most people use to justify racism.

DEREK57

04-17-2005, 11:27 PM

Originally posted by tulit

Another fundemental flaw with the whole creationist theory is that don't different religions describe the process in which we came to be differently? I don't even think they can agree on who/what god really is. So what now? Who's right?? I think we can agree we are all apart of the same world, so that means at least every religion is wrong except one. Even then, whats to say that they aren't all wrong, and the "true" prophets that know the true origins of the universe haven't come along yet? Maybe god created evolution ;)

Scientists disagree constantly on the extent to which evolution is viable, and then what forms it took, and how it happened. How is this any different?

DEREK57

04-17-2005, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by hollywood_35
I myself believe in evolution. Sure church was created to worship a god, but going back into the history books churches were created to get money. They owned all the land, collected tithes and were basically level powered with the goverment. My theory is they used the "beliefs" of people back then to collect money. This may not be true but it's just what I think.

This is actually a common misconception with the big religions, well Christianity in particular. Its a shame that for quite a while this is what it became, but if you study the original conception of the Christian church it is nothing like this. The Church largely rebelled against the government, it didnt really make money, and often it got its followers were fed to the lions, or burnt alive for it.

abyss

04-18-2005, 09:23 AM

I've taken a few University biology courses and I was a devout christian for about half of my life, not that I am implying I am an expert in either respect, however the details we talked about in Biology have swayed my opinion away from creationism, I believe in and support evolution, due to the fact that we see it in daily life with bacteria and viruses (even though they are not technically alive)

RiCE-DaDDy

04-18-2005, 02:38 PM

^ guess you weren't THAT devout

Weapon_R

04-18-2005, 02:42 PM

I'll be the first to state that I don't know shit about evolution, but could someone explain something to me:

How did evolution start? What started the process? The big bang theory? Where did the atoms come from and how did they have the energy to collide?

Again, excuse me for my ignorance, but it would be good to see someone explain that in layman terms.

abyss

04-18-2005, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by RiCE-DaDDy
^ guess you weren't THAT devout

I was a firm believer for 10 years, however I was also a child and had no knowledge of man's origin of existence other than what the church told me. Quite the shame in my opinion. However, once I was forced to take science and actually learn about evolution I found I liked that explanatory route a lot better and grew to love Biology as a result.

RiCE-DaDDy

04-18-2005, 02:55 PM

but to persuaded like u put it seems like you never really had faith in your beliefs

ricosuave

04-18-2005, 03:18 PM

Epicurus (341–270 B.C.), Greek philosopher

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

abyss

04-18-2005, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by RiCE-DaDDy
but to persuaded like u put it seems like you never really had faith in your beliefs

I never said I was persuaded, I did say that was all I knew. I don't see how that can be unfaithful at all, I had nothing else to be unfaithful to, more often than not I would imagine children to be more faithful than adults when it comes to religion. Once I had learned more about evolution, I now hold an entirely different opinion. It had nothing to do with faith so much as a broader education.

*edit* if the church wanted me to continue believing in creationism, then they should've presented a better argument for the origin of existence than science provided me.

StupidWade

04-18-2005, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by Weapon_R
I'll be the first to state that I don't know shit about evolution, but could someone explain something to me:

How did evolution start? What started the process? The big bang theory? Where did the atoms come from and how did they have the energy to collide?

Again, excuse me for my ignorance, but it would be good to see someone explain that in layman terms.

We (and by we, I mean mankind) don't know yet and we may never know before we are wiped out by disease, war or an asteroid or comet hitting the earth.

Consider the fact that mankind has been concertedly studying the origins of our world and solar system for probably less than five thousand years. That period of time is comically insignificant in the history of the earth, much less the history of our galaxy or universe.

Scientists don't even know (for sure) what causes a simple, universal force such as gravity and certainly not how the universe or life on earth began. But at least they're constantly trying to get closer to the answers, contrary to many Christians' belief that there's no need to explain anything (such as the existence of the dinosaurs) because God created it all.

Even if God did create everything, he seemed to use some pretty consistent rules. Maybe that's all scientists are really trying to determine. What were and are those rules?

DEREK57

04-18-2005, 03:54 PM

403Gemini

04-18-2005, 03:58 PM

IMO

God is not "all loving", god is just "there"

There HAS to be somethign to start and create everything. sure theres probably something huge in higher power, maybe even more than one thing (lucifer vs god etc) maybe even more? maybe the greeks had it right with their multiple gods? *shrugs* who knows

but i believe something is out there, but is more neutral than "good" or "evil"

kiwi

04-18-2005, 03:59 PM

I believe in evolution.

D. Dub

04-18-2005, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by 403Gemini
[B]IMO

There HAS to be somethign to start and create everything. ]

Not necessarily. "starts and creations" are anthropomorphizing the world and the universe.

Most Buddhists believe that the world is eternal...

...no beginning... no end.

AcuraTl

04-18-2005, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by D. Dub

Not necessarily. "starts and creations" are anthropomorphizing the world and the universe.

Most Buddhists believe that the world is eternal...

...no beginning... no end.

hehe most christians,jews,muslims believe that GOD is eternal, no beggining no end...

D. Dub

04-18-2005, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by ricosuave
Epicurus (341–270 B.C.), Greek philosopher

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

The problem of evil simply boils down to attempting to reconcile three main christian beliefs:

1) God is all-powerful,

2) God is entirely good,

3) Evil exists.

Any two of these statements can easily be held to be true, but it is difficult to see how all three can be true. Humans who are good do their best to reduce evil when they can.

An all-powerful deity should be able to and ethically should entirely eliminate evil.

Christianity has never produced a satisfactory solution to this trilemma

Weapon_R

04-18-2005, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by StupidWade

We (and by we, I mean mankind) don't know yet and we may never know before we are wiped out by disease, war or an asteroid or comet hitting the earth.

Consider the fact that mankind has been concertedly studying the origins of our world and solar system for probably less than five thousand years. That period of time is comically insignificant in the history of the earth, much less the history of our galaxy or universe.

Scientists don't even know (for sure) what causes a simple, universal force such as gravity and certainly not how the universe or life on earth began. But at least they're constantly trying to get closer to the answers, contrary to many Christians' belief that there's no need to explain anything (such as the existence of the dinosaurs) because God created it all.

Even if God did create everything, he seemed to use some pretty consistent rules. Maybe that's all scientists are really trying to determine. What were and are those rules?

This gap is probably the factor that drives people towards god. Scientists always argue that energy cannot be created or destroyed, but clearly, that was the case regarding the big bang theory if i'm correct. I'm talking prior to atoms, prior to anything, what made them? Where did they come from?

Again, the issue of evolution has never truly interested me, but when you really think about it, there had to be something that we don't quite understand to give that needed push. I probably am talking out of my ass here, its far too much for my head to comprehend, but there are certain gaps that can only be filled by something of higher power. For most people, that higher power is god :)

RiCE-DaDDy

04-18-2005, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by abyss

I never said I was persuaded, I did say that was all I knew. I don't see how that can be unfaithful at all, I had nothing else to be unfaithful to, more often than not I would imagine children to be more faithful than adults when it comes to religion. Once I had learned more about evolution, I now hold an entirely different opinion. It had nothing to do with faith so much as a broader education.

*edit* if the church wanted me to continue believing in creationism, then they should've presented a better argument for the origin of existence than science provided me.

Ah i see. Thing is im my experience, most believers aren't believers because they are convinced by arguments that appeal to the modern human mind (shaped by what we think is logical blah blah). They are believers because they a spiritual intangible connection to God which obviously science can't prove.

civicrider

04-18-2005, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by DEREK57

So you met a few Christians you didnt like, therefore Christianity is fundamentally flawed, and Christians are ignorant and brainwashed????

This is the type of stellar reasoning that most people use to justify racism.

christianity isnt stupid because the belivers are stuck up its dumb because there no way that some guy can magicly create things with the snap of his fingers. and if it is possible for that to happen, more then one person would be able to create things. it would be such a waste of time/money to be christian you dont gain anything from it. if there was a god dont you think he would want to make a clear point he exisits by doing something crazy. if he exists why is there war and sufferning? its a big crock of shit to make people not fear death so much and christianity is a way to guied people who con not do it on their own.

D. Dub

04-18-2005, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by civicrider

christianity isnt stupid because the belivers are stuck up its dumb because there no way that some guy can magicly create things with the snap of his fingers.

No more magic than the big bang ultimately resulting in the complexities of life as we know it.

civicrider

04-18-2005, 06:53 PM

^
fuck thats BS too, i dont see why people need to know how we got here, all that matters that we are here. all i know is that christianity is a big lie and is just there to give people something to belive in.

pixil9

04-18-2005, 06:54 PM

Ya I'm sure there's some dude with super powers who can create people lol.

D. Dub

04-18-2005, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by Weapon_R

This gap is probably the factor that drives people towards god. , its far too much for my head to comprehend, but there are certain gaps that can only be filled by something of higher power. For most people, that higher power is god :)

Good point,

many new areas of neuro-psychology research point to a specific part of our brain that has evolved to contain belief system like a god, christianity etc

This specialized part of our thought processes/brain acts in order to explain away all the mystery and unknowns that would otherwise make us loopy and keep us away from more important things like surviving.

liquid1010

04-18-2005, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by D. Dub

The problem of evil simply boils down to attempting to reconcile three main christian beliefs:

1) God is all-powerful,

2) God is entirely good,

3) Evil exists.

Any two of these statements can easily be held to be true, but it is difficult to see how all three can be true. Humans who are good do their best to reduce evil when they can.

An all-powerful deity should be able to and ethically should entirely eliminate evil.

Christianity has never produced a satisfactory solution to this trilemma

Actually there is an entirely good explanation. What does God want from man? Love and Devotion.... and Worship. Now, how can love and devotion be real if there is no choice at all. If you have no choice whether to love something or not, then true love does not exist. Now, taking this one step farther God allowed for evil due to the fact that it gives us a choice, and makes life "real". If you read the Bible you'll realize the devil was a fallen angel, and is used by God in a variety of ways. Evil has a funny way of turning people around to love and generosity.