Vince Carter >>> Lebron James

[Komplekshun]

Yeah, he proved that last night. Lebron is NOT on Vince's level (YET). And I do stress yet, because he IS only 19. But for you Stans out there and Vince haters alike, Vince completely turned that franchise around. Scoring 30 a game since the trade, he single handley got 'em in the playoffs. And look at the scrubs he plays with. Rodney Buford? Jason collins? Brian Scalabrine? LOL... They'd be bench players on the bobcats.

And dont count them out against the heat. With the return of Jefferson, and the ailing shaq, they may steal a couple.

[vcteggy]

sure but we all know that kobe >>>>>> sluts

[bigboom]

yeah but how can you say that when Carter is playing with a guard like Kidd?

[Komplekshun]

Originally posted by vcteggy
sure but we all know that kobe >>>>>> sluts

*brushes shoulders off*

[Komplekshun]

Originally posted by bigboom
yeah but how can you say that when Carter is playing with a guard like Kidd?

the same Kidd who averaged career lows in almost every statistical category?

[ca2p3r]

HAHA... lebrons stats last night were like 24-14-14

lebron is in a completley different league then vince n00b

[vcteggy]

Originally posted by ca2p3r
HAHA... lebrons stats last night were like 24-14-14

lebron is in a completley different league then vince n00b

:werd:

plus as soon he starts playing bad he's going to get another ankle "injury"

[ca2p3r]

yeah, as soon as the fans in jersey get sick of his lazy bad attitude he will pretend to be injured again :banghead:

[buh_buh]

no, now that Vince is out of TO there will be no more "injuries"

[vcteggy]

Originally posted by buh_buh
no, now that Vince is out of TO there will be no more "injuries"

I wouldn't speak so soon, let's wait a few more months and see;)

[saiyajin]

lebron already has 4 triple doubles in the season and hes like what 20? vince got nothing on lebron

[skandalz]

vince is a :poosie:

reasons why lebron is better then vc:

1.) LBJ is way more developed as a player, physically and mentally then carter was at that age.

2.) LBJ makes his team mates better, Carter makes nothing better

3.) LBJ never gives up... Carter is a quitter and a fag... seriously he likes little boys

4.) LBJ can win with anyone. He went into a situation in Clevland with no real stars and a year later illgausks is an all-star. his team was in the thick of the playoff race, and he's been able to win without bitching or complaining.

5.) LBJ isn't afraid to play hurt, vince on the other hand spends most of his time hurt... or he did when he was on a losing team but as soon as he jumps ship to a team with more wins all of a sudden he's superman and he can play through the pain :bullshit: .

At the end of the day carter is a bitch who doesn't deserve to be in the league. fck'n cry baby.

[ca2p3r]

Carter is a quitter and a fag... seriously he likes little boys

lol:rofl:

[saiyajin]

Lebron even took all the blame and he realizes his role on his team and thats what makes him great compared to VC

[skandalz]

Originally posted by Komplekshun


the same Kidd who averaged career lows in almost every statistical category?

probably because he was pretty much left crippled w/o jefferson, plus keep in mind kidd wasn't 100% until around the time vc got traded. and lets not forget the nets are in the east, you can get into the playoffs with a below 500 record in the east. lebron's in the west where the competition is a lot tougher

[Clever]

Originally posted by buh_buh
no, now that Vince is out of TO there will be no more "injuries"


:werd:

Carter is a half ass, no heart sell out. they should've kept T-mac

[saiyajin]

Originally posted by skandalz


probably because he was pretty much left crippled w/o jefferson, plus keep in mind kidd wasn't 100% until around the time vc got traded. and lets not forget the nets are in the east, you can get into the playoffs with a below 500 record in the east. lebron's in the west where the competition is a lot tougher


???? the Cavs are in the eastern conference...

[skandalz]

^hahaha right, blanked out there, i had this same exact argument a year ago regarding the rookie of the year award between lebron and carmello

[bigboom]

kidd may not have performed up to his usual standards but think of the attention he is able to draw away from VC...who does LBJ have? Ilgauskas? the only reason Z was an all star this year is because of LBJ.

[ca2p3r]

z was an all star before LBJ even came in the nba :dunno:

[outlawz_lm]

Carters a lil cry baby, just give him couple years and hes gona want out of NJ aswell and he'll quit on them too. He admitted on quittin on the Raps himself. The Nets are Jeffersons team and u cant have two superstars on one team. as for lebaron, this kids gona get better and better, but i doubt he'll stay in cleveland for his whole career. Atleast Lebaron not a quiter, he'll play his heart out every game like A-I..

[saiyajin]

get the mans name right already!! hahah

[ca2p3r]

lebarons are :bigpimp:

[Komplekshun]

Originally posted by skandalz
vince is a :poosie:



LOL @ this clown get homotional about Vince. Vince bounced from Toronto, not cause he didnt have love for the city. Management sucked! He was the FRANCHISE and didn't agree with were it was going. Shouldn't he have SOME influence on some of their decisions??? apparently not, since they Picked Rob Babcock oover DR. J, the same babcock who drafted "carlos arroyo??!?!" LOL, I'd bounce too! And look at the scrubs he traded vince for? lol.

Vince Carter > The Raptors organization.

*looks forward to vince droppin 40 game 1 in miami*

[skandalz]

ca2p3r- Z was never an all-star before lebron. sure he was on the rookier all star team (he may have even won the rookie of the game award) but before lebron he was just another good player. now he's an all-star.

[ca2p3r]

z was in the allstar game before lebron even entered the league. z was the most dominant force in the east before shaq came to town

[gggunit]

Originally posted by ca2p3r
Carter is a quitter and a fag... seriously he likes little boys

lol:rofl:

Did you vist Carter at the neverland ranch... :poosie:

[ca2p3r]

ppl take this jacko shit too far

[ninjak84]

Haha

Look at everyone jump on the Lebron wagon.
You guys buy your Flames playoff tickets yet?

[saiyajin]

i was on the wagon when he was drafted hah :D

[ca2p3r]

ppl have been on the wagon since the kid was in HS

[saiyajin]

actually ya when i saw him on the mcdonalds high school challenge or whatever the hell it was

[u4ia]

man so much vc bashing..

as i said in the other thread, why can't everyone just give the guy his credit, he's done well for himself in NJ and he did turn their season around. calling him a fag and a baby and all this shit doesn't change the fact that he IS doing well. and as for being lazy.. does that not make it all the more impressive that he's doing what he's doing while being lazy?

nothing against lebron, the guy is absolutely amazing and is probably the most well rounded player in the league. he'll be the best one day.. but remember that a lot of the praise given to LBJ right now was also given to guys like vince early on in their careers. for all you know, lebron could suddenly have an attitude change too. in vc's second year in the league, no one was bashing him the way they do now, so as you can see shit does happen.

[skandalz]

Originally posted by Komplekshun


LOL @ this clown get homotional about Vince. Vince bounced from Toronto, not cause he didnt have love for the city. Management sucked! He was the FRANCHISE and didn't agree with were it was going. Shouldn't he have SOME influence on some of their decisions??? apparently not, since they Picked Rob Babcock oover DR. J, the same babcock who drafted "carlos arroyo??!?!" LOL, I'd bounce too! And look at the scrubs he traded vince for? lol.

Vince Carter > The Raptors organization.

*looks forward to vince droppin 40 game 1 in miami*

players need to know there roles, that they are the employees and not the other way around when it comes to dealing with owners/ GMs. vince was pissed because he didn't give the ok on babcock's hiring? SUCK IT UP, it's not your money. he may have been the franchise player but he wasn't the franchise. players like him need to be brought down to earth.

i'll agree babcock was a bad move but dr.j would've never done it. just rumors. if dr.j wanted to be involved in running a team he'd have his pick of any team. i'll also agree that who the raptors got for was a bad trade because they didn't get market value for vince.

and fyi arroyo is sick, just give him a chance to play his game. don't believe me? watch what he did to "team usa" this past summer. and is this in no way a claim that arroyo is the shit or anything like that i'm just saying he deserves more credit then he gets.

[RiCE-DaDDy]

Lebron will be the best but right now...

he's got nothing on guys like Tmac, AI

[ca2p3r]

^ u dont see what lebron does other then just SCORE

he has presense on the floor, like the same reason shaq is so domminant

[Komplekshun]

Originally posted by u4ia
man so much vc bashing..

as i said in the other thread, why can't everyone just give the guy his credit, he's done well for himself in NJ and he did turn their season around. calling him a fag and a baby and all this shit doesn't change the fact that he IS doing well. and as for being lazy.. does that not make it all the more impressive that he's doing what he's doing while being lazy?

nothing against lebron, the guy is absolutely amazing and is probably the most well rounded player in the league. he'll be the best one day.. but remember that a lot of the praise given to LBJ right now was also given to guys like vince early on in their careers. for all you know, lebron could suddenly have an attitude change too. in vc's second year in the league, no one was bashing him the way they do now, so as you can see shit does happen.

close thread.

[menace3]

cmon look @ Lebron he's 6'8 and about240 pounds and a shooting guard. just the upper body strength nobody can beat him.

[Komplekshun]

Originally posted by skandalz

and fyi arroyo is sick, just give him a chance to play his game. don't believe me? watch what he did to "team usa" this past summer. and is this in no way a claim that arroyo is the shit or anything like that i'm just saying he deserves more credit then he gets.

Shamique Holdsclaw >> Carlos Arroyo

[BigDannyCool]

the nets should have kept Kenyon Martin...they went to shits after he left.

[eblend]

didn't read the whole thread by VC makes me sick, what a fucking cheap ass sellout. that fucker is also so fragile makes you wonder if maybe he is a girl after all haha

[u4ia]

well t-mac and AI don't like to pass, so yeah, lebron does have something on them. :) i know the stats show that AI gets his assists but we all know that the pass is his 17th option. haha.

menace3:
it's kinda premature to be saying that nobody can beat him.. if someone told you a few years back that there would be an 18 year old kid entering the league who would go on to average 27-7-7 in his second season, you'd think it was impossible too. so who knows what kinda kids are coming up these days from high school..

skandalz:
the issue in toronto wasn't really over vince's approval of the next GM, but rather that they broke his promise to him because they SAID they would consult with him first. that doesn't mean he has the final word, but that they would just ask. that's all. seriously dude, if your boss told you he'd consult with you on a major decision, and then went back on his word, would you not be the slightest bit pissed? i know you're gonna say that the guy makes millions and that this shouldn't matter, but he's still human and it's natural to be pissed over certain things.

what vince did is absolutely nothing compared to what kobe did in LA. chucky atkins, his own teammate, even called him the GM. now that's running the show, not what vc did..

[DEREK57]

Originally posted by Komplekshun


LOL @ this clown get homotional about Vince. Vince bounced from Toronto, not cause he didnt have love for the city. Management sucked! He was the FRANCHISE and didn't agree with were it was going. Shouldn't he have SOME influence on some of their decisions??? apparently not, since they Picked Rob Babcock oover DR. J, the same babcock who drafted "carlos arroyo??!?!" LOL, I'd bounce too! And look at the scrubs he traded vince for? lol.

Vince Carter > The Raptors organization.

*looks forward to vince droppin 40 game 1 in miami*

What are you talking about? The Raps gave carter about as much say as any player on any team, they friggin gave his MOM a parking space. They shouldnt have to pick the GM he wants. Incase your unaware, he is a player, the are management. They PAY him to play. They do not work together to make decisions. And when a team doesnt do what you want, then you play through it. Look at LJ, they fired Silas at the dumbest possible time, yet he still gives it his all, and he takes the blame when they fall short. Thats the difference though, Vince may have played better for half a season, but because of his heart, and consistent drive Lebron will one day be an MVP and a HOFer, IMO.

[u4ia]

i agree with derek57 that they did give vc a lot of say on the whole.. it's just the one incident that got to him. i'm sure it could have easily been avoided too. simple matter really. if the team wasn't planning on consulting with him about the future GM, they should have just kept quiet instead of making promises.

however, i don't think the word consistent can be attached to a second year player.. consistent heart and drive is KG, lebron has a few more years to go before he can be considered in the same breath in this regard.

[menace3]

i saw his little article (lebron) in the magazines I think 2002 with I know that he will dominate in the NBA. then came SLAm mag w/ Sebastian telfair.

[RiCE-DaDDy]

yea sure lebrons got the edge on passing (his court vision is great), and his size and hops are the tools to being a good rebounder, but he can't just dominate and take over games whenever he wants like AI, tmac....like MJ. So yea that will come in time, when his offensive skills get better. Right now he's getting his points naturally in the flow of the offense, which is good too.

If i had to choose someone to take the last shot, it wouldnt be lebron

[jumperman8]

Originally posted by Komplekshun
Yeah, he proved that last night. Lebron is NOT on Vince's level (YET). And I do stress yet, because he IS only 19. But for you Stans out there and Vince haters alike, Vince completely turned that franchise around. Scoring 30 a game since the trade, he single handley got 'em in the playoffs. And look at the scrubs he plays with. Rodney Buford? Jason collins? Brian Scalabrine? LOL... They'd be bench players on the bobcats.

And dont count them out against the heat. With the return of Jefferson, and the ailing shaq, they may steal a couple.

So i basically jsut decided that you are the dumbest fuck alive. Lebron not on Vinces level, no shit, he is 10 levels above him. Lebron James is 10X better then vince carter. Let me put it this way, lebron is 20 years old, and could be in college still, no one in the NCAA coudl stop lebron. he would average 75 a game. Second, lebron james averages over 25, 7 and 7. He joins the company of a whole 4 other people to ever do it. So before you start talking Vince i suck ass cartyer up, learn your facts.

[Komplekshun]

Originally posted by jumperman8


So i basically jsut decided that you are the dumbest fuck alive. Lebron not on Vinces level, no shit, he is 10 levels above him. Lebron James is 10X better then vince carter. Let me put it this way, lebron is 20 years old, and could be in college still, no one in the NCAA coudl stop lebron. he would average 75 a game. Second, lebron james averages over 25, 7 and 7. He joins the company of a whole 4 other people to ever do it. So before you start talking Vince i suck ass cartyer up, learn your facts.

You have awful grammar. Holla at me when you get your highschool diploma.

[jumperman8]

ill make sure to "holla" at you. lol

[90Tegra]

heres my rank

1. lebron
2. kobe
3. iverson
4. wade
5. mcgrady
112. carter

carter is such a pussy player man. did anyone watch the heat vs. nets series. carter never tried to get the rebounds or rush the basket when shaq or mourning were in the game he always went for the jumpshots. hell he didn't even go close to him.

[jumperman8]

i agree with most of those, but kobe no, adn where is Shaq?

[skandalz]

^good points

i dunno about wade in the 4 spot though? right now i'd put him above AI. just because he doesn't mind passing the ball and he trusts his team

[jumperman8]

^ not hard to trust a team with the leagues most dominant big man.

I think my list would go:

1. Shaq
2. Lebron
3. Iverson
4. Nash ( not just cause he is canadain, best pure pg inthe league)
5. Wade

[Komplekshun]

Originally posted by jumperman8
^ not hard to trust a team with the leagues most dominant big man.

I think my list would go:

1. Shaq
2. Lebron
3. Iverson
4. Nash ( not just cause he is canadain, best pure pg inthe league)
5. Wade

You just lost all credibility.

[u4ia]

i am pretty sure komplekshun's point he was trying to make in this thread was that vince got his team to the playoffs and lebron couldn't. this is a fact so i don't know what more there is to dispute about it?? :dunno:

[u4ia]

i don't really agree with those rankings either.. KG and TD not in the top 5? that's pretty absurd.

[Komplekshun]

Originally posted by u4ia
i am pretty sure komplekshun's point he was trying to make in this thread was that vince got his team to the playoffs and lebron couldn't. this is a fact so i don't know what more there is to dispute about it?? :dunno:

[vcteggy]

1: KG
2:Lebron
131:Enrique Iglesias
132:Carter

nuff said

[jumperman8]

Originally posted by u4ia
i am pretty sure komplekshun's point he was trying to make in this thread was that vince got his team to the playoffs and lebron couldn't. this is a fact so i don't know what more there is to dispute about it?? :dunno:

Vince did not "get" his team into the playoffs, he helped them. Jason Kidd Got HIS team into the playoffs. NUFF SAID

but my list was weak i must admitt


Real List f Top 10

1. Shaq
2. Lebron
3. Tim Duncan
4. Allen Iverson
5. Steve Nash
6. Keven Garrnet
7. Dwayne Wade
8. Stephon Marbury
9. Tracy Magrady
10. Rip Hamiltom
100000. Vince Carter
100001. Wang Zee Zee

[u4ia]

dude you can't be serious..

where was jason kidd and the nets this season before vince got there? even before richard jefferson went down, they were doing pretty damn bad. so your statement about kidd taking his team to the playoffs is completely unfounded.

and as for your list.. it's a bit better, but stephon marbury at #8?? sure, the self-proclaimed "best point guard in the league" piles up the stats but he's done absolutely nothing for any of the teams he's been on. in fact, it could be said that every team he's played for got better after he left..

[jumperman8]

ill tell you where Jason Kidd was before the nets got Vince, Injured, along with Richard Jefferson. Vince was the added boost htey needed to stat winning agian, with jefferson out. It is still adn will always be Jasons team. Stephon is a great offensive player, and not to shabby defensive. If new york would get rid of the old ass players they had they woudl be better.

[jumperman8]

Accaully if you go and look at the Nets stats while Jason Kidd was out they lost a total 19 games out of 28. When he returned that turned around. And when Vince showed up they still only played 500 ball. So if you are trying ot telme i cant say its Jason Kidds team, dont tell me its Vinces, because he doesnt run that team, or hold it together.

[u4ia]

so how does that translate into jason kidd carrying NJ into the playoffs? :dunno:

i did not say it wasn't kidd's team, of course it is. but just because it's "his" team doesn't mean that he singlehandedly brought them to the playoffs. if anything, they both played off of each other. vc averaged almost 28ppg in NJ, that's hardly insignificant, though it seems like a lot of people are treating it as such..

stephon is indeed a great offensive player. but yet, still not good enough to help his teams win. he is nowhere near #8 in the league. there's gotta be a good 20 guys in the league that would be better to build a team around than marbury.

[u4ia]

when did i say jason kidd had nothing to do with their turnaround? i said that he didn't do it all by myself.

if vince didn't show up, NJ wouldn't have made the playoffs. i think that's a better assumption than jason kidd taking them to the playoffs alone..

here's a good article concerning this subject for those of you who are interested..

http://www.nba.com/nets/news/perfect_together.html

[jumperman8]

Ok, We agreee that Jason and Vince and Jefferson feed off each other.

But 20 more players, if you could list them, that i dont already have in my top 7, that would be something to see.

But back to the thread, this is the head to head comparison of Vince and Lebron for this season.

Vince Carter
New Jersey Nets
Position: F-G
Height: 6-6 Weight: 220
College : North Carolina '99
Player file | Team stats

2004-05 Statistics
PPG 24.5
RPG 5.2
APG 4.2
SPG 1.42
BPG .62
FG% .452
FT% .798
3P% .406
MPG 36.7


LeBron James
Cleveland Cavaliers
Position: F
Height: 6-8 Weight: 240
High School : St. Vincent-St. Mary HS (OH)
Player file | Team stats

2004-05 Statistics
PPG 27.2
RPG 7.4
APG 7.2
SPG 2.21
BPG .65
FG% .472
FT% .750
3P% .351
MPG 42.4


i think you add that to Lebron being 20, pretty easy to say he is a better player then Vince right now. And if you want to go and compare it from when vince went to New Jersey and those games to Lebrons last games, go ahead.

What Vince averaged with New Jersey in 57 games
27.5

What lebron averaged in his last 57 games
29.4

this includes 29 30+ games.

I dont even think it is a argument as to which player is better, we have determined that Jason Kidd and Vince Carter helped lead the Nets to the Playoffs, not jsut Vince, plus If lebron would have made the layoffs it was jsut him leading the way. Not to mention the termoil the Cavs went through the last 2 months of the season. O and dont forget, Vince only made it on the tie breaker, they both finished wiht the same record.

[u4ia]

i didn't say 20 guys that weren't already in your top 10, though i'm sure if you wanted to count from 21-30 even, those guys would still be arguably better than stephon..

anyways, to make it quick, my pick for 20 guys better than marbury to build a team around.. (in no particular order)

kevin garnett
tim duncan
shaquille o'neal
lebron james
andrei kirilenko
jermaine o'neal
paul pierce
ray allen
allen iverson
tracy mcgrady
jason kidd
steve nash
dirk nowitzki
pau gasol
peja stojakovic
dwyane wade
antawn jamison
michael finley
vince carter
shawn marion


as for lebron.. i totally agree that he's had an amazing season. no doubt about it, the kid is nuts. and i do think he's better than vc.. but he didn't make the playoffs, and it would be wrong to say that ilgauskas was no help. and what's wrong with making it on the tie breaker? that means that vc's team beat lebron's team more times. i think that's legit.

[jumperman8]

I liek your list other then a few

Peja, sac town is already trying that by getting rid of webber and sayin here peja win us a championship. Isnt doing them much good i think.

Tracy Magrady, orlando, nuff said about him

but other then that the rest is legit, i give you props on that.

i didnt dsay gettin in on a tie breaker was bs, just dont make it sound like the nets were 10 games on top of the cavs.

[u4ia]

sacramento did well last year when they ran the offense through peja while webber was out.. so they're trying it again. but really i don't think it's his fault, the team's changed a lot and it'll take some time to readjust. his teammates also have to pick it up a bit. the way the kings are playing right now against the sonics, they just smother peja and challenge the others to shoot because they're all on a cold streak.

t-mac never had a good supporting cast in orlando.. he's doing a lot better now in houston, even though it's now unlikely he'll make it out of the first round yet again. i admit the guy can be selfish, but i guess that's what scoring 13 in 35s does to your ego. :)

as for the tiebreaker.. i think it was more or less a pride thing, because both the nets and the cavs know they don't really have a chance against miami. the cavs would have had a way better record too if they didn't collapse in the end.. but hey, shit happens right. it just shows they're a young team and they need a bit more experience before they make it far. i'm sure they'll come back strong next season.

[jumperman8]

^^ True:thumbsup:

As soon as my Cavs get a good outside shooter, i think we will do well, as long as teh ownership can get there shit together to make sure they have a coach again. I think they should apologize to paul silas, and hire his ass back. My own opinion tho.

[Komplekshun]

Originally posted by jumperman8


Real List f Top 10

1. Shaq
2. Lebron
3. Tim Duncan
4. Allen Iverson
5. Steve Nash
6. Keven Garrnet
7. Dwayne Wade
8. Stephon Marbury
9. Tracy Magrady
10. Rip Hamiltom
100000. Vince Carter
100001. Wang Zee Zee

Starbury before T-Mac? hahaha. Rip hamilton would be a the sixth man on the bulls, let alone top 10.

Wheres Kobe????????

Ridiculous.

[skandalz]

^here's hoping the cavs don't lose Z and get all the front office garbage fixed. i read that the leading candidate for head coach is nate macmillan from seattle.

[saiyajin]

where are gilbert arenas and larry hughes on your lists?? :dunno:

[u4ia]

gilbert arenas and larry hughes would fall into the 21-30 category for me.. i know they've been tearing it up this season and are great players in their own right, but i don't think they're quite top 20 yet. maybe in the next year or two.

[u4ia]

oh and as for kobe.. i don't think he deserves to be top 20 due to the way he destroyed LA. my list was for the top 20 guys to build a team around, and i don't think kobe is a good choice here. if they took a poll around the league and asked the players about the one guy they wouldn't want to play with, i'm pretty sure kobe would get the most votes. (he'd definitely sweep the lakers votes. :tongue: )

[jumperman8]

Originally posted by Komplekshun


Starbury before T-Mac? hahaha. Rip hamilton would be a the sixth man on the bulls, let alone top 10.

Wheres Kobe????????

Ridiculous.

do you watch basketball?

Just Curious, you dont know much about it, how can you give kobe props, he did a great job this year without shaq eh. kobe is a jack show, and until his head gets out of his ass, he wont be good. end of story.

Hamilton 6th man on bulls, Are you done?

Here, watch basketball then come back and type on the basketball forum topics.

[PGTze]

Ok heres a realistic top player list since we're on the subject...


1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Tim Duncan
5. Shaq
6. TMac
7. Alenn Iverson
8. Ray Allen
9. Amare Stoudamire
10. Dwayne Wade


Nash should be MVP, I just could not fit him in that list, he'd be tops if it was a best team player list. Dirk, Carter, Pierce, Lewis,
and Francis were close cuts as well.

[jumperman8]

Originally posted by PGTze
Ok heres a realistic top player list since we're on the subject...


1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Tim Duncan
5. Shaq
6. TMac
7. Alenn Iverson
8. Ray Allen
9. Amare Stoudamire
10. Dwayne Wade


Nash should be MVP, I just could not fit him in that list, he'd be tops if it was a best team player list. Dirk, Carter, Pierce, Lewis,
and Francis were close cuts as well.

Realistic??
ahahaha

I love lebron james more then anyone, he is not the best player in the Nba right now, he will be, but isnt at the moment, doenst play good enough defence.

Kobe, Kevin and Tim in front of Shaq, lost all respect for your list there, what has kobe done for the Lakers this year, other then lead them to an under 500 record.

Kevin, where is minnisota right now

Tim, well hes good, but shaq is better

Thanks for trying tho

[PGTze]

^^^ says the guy who ranked rip hamilton in the top 10 :rolleyes:

[jumperman8]

Again, watch basketball, if you dont hink Rip Hamilton is good, then agian you dont watch much basketball, or Championship ball at least



:rofl:

[u4ia]

Originally posted by PGTze
Ok heres a realistic top player list since we're on the subject...


1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Tim Duncan
5. Shaq
6. TMac
7. Alenn Iverson
8. Ray Allen
9. Amare Stoudamire
10. Dwayne Wade


Nash should be MVP, I just could not fit him in that list, he'd be tops if it was a best team player list. Dirk, Carter, Pierce, Lewis,
and Francis were close cuts as well.

pretty decent list but i don't think kobe is top 10.. or even top 20. this season proved that he can't carry a team like he thinks he can, and the guy is just a nightmare for team politics. oh and i'd also have dirk in the top 10, at least in place of ray allen.

and yes, i agree with nash being MVP. a lot of people think shaq should be MVP, but everything he's done in miami still can't compare to what nash did in phoenix.

[u4ia]

Originally posted by jumperman8


Realistic??
ahahaha

I love lebron james more then anyone, he is not the best player in the Nba right now, he will be, but isnt at the moment, doenst play good enough defence.

Kobe, Kevin and Tim in front of Shaq, lost all respect for your list there, what has kobe done for the Lakers this year, other then lead them to an under 500 record.

Kevin, where is minnisota right now

Tim, well hes good, but shaq is better

Thanks for trying tho

it's not really KG's fault for what happened in minnesota. the guy continued to put up ridiculous numbers as he's done all his career, and never showed the slightest hint of giving up even though his team collapsed around him. there are a bunch of guys on minnesota that you could blame for their crappy season, but he's definitely not one of them. i personally think KG is #1 if you're talking about the most complete player.

it's hard to knock TD when he's produced similarly to shaq over the last 7-8 years. yes, shaq is more dominating and has one more ring than TD, but TD arguably had less to work with. (no secondary superstar after robinson retired.) so really, i'd consider them fairly equal.


Originally posted by jumperman8
Again, watch basketball, if you dont hink Rip Hamilton is good, then agian you dont watch much basketball, or Championship ball at least



:rofl:

rip is good, but he's not a franchise-type player so it's hard to put him in the top 10. realistically i'd put him in the 30's. (my justification being that franchise-type players would basically fill all the spots up to 30..)

[jumperman8]

I still think the fact remains that Shaq is by far the most dominating player in the NBA, when you go from one championship team to a second round team and make them a championship contender i think you need to be given all the respect you deserve, that includes #1.

Nash for MVP, i think it is a toss up again, look what nash has done for the pheonix suns, but then again you have to look at waht shaq did for the heat.

I wish lebron was in teh running, but i dont think he will be until his team makes the run.

KG, it isnt his fault, but being the franchise player he is the one people blame. I was jsut going with the flow. I think KG adn Marbuary are going through the same shit on there teams, they have Older players that still think they are superstars, and dont understand what the game plan should be.

Tim D, most fundemental player ever to play the game. Who the hell else gets in the lane and lays it in when your 7 footer.

Kobe, why do people still think he is good man, he is a good dunker, that is it, no leader ship skills at all, again look at the Lakers. Phil didnt leave because he wanted to retire, he didnt want to caoch a cock.

I dont think you can argue that Rip lead the pistons last yeare in the final, MVP says it all for that.

:thumbsup:

[Komplekshun]

Originally posted by jumperman8


Kobe, why do people still think he is good man, he is a good dunker, that is it, no leader ship skills at all, again look at the Lakers. Phil didnt leave because he wanted to retire, he didnt want to caoch a cock.



You need better weed.

[jumperman8]

^^ so that is why you like him so much..

i knew there was something, the fact you take itup the ass from him couldnt have been the only reason:bigpimp:

[u4ia]

Originally posted by jumperman8
I still think the fact remains that Shaq is by far the most dominating player in the NBA, when you go from one championship team to a second round team and make them a championship contender i think you need to be given all the respect you deserve, that includes #1.

Nash for MVP, i think it is a toss up again, look what nash has done for the pheonix suns, but then again you have to look at waht shaq did for the heat.

I wish lebron was in teh running, but i dont think he will be until his team makes the run.

KG, it isnt his fault, but being the franchise player he is the one people blame. I was jsut going with the flow. I think KG adn Marbuary are going through the same shit on there teams, they have Older players that still think they are superstars, and dont understand what the game plan should be.

Tim D, most fundemental player ever to play the game. Who the hell else gets in the lane and lays it in when your 7 footer.

Kobe, why do people still think he is good man, he is a good dunker, that is it, no leader ship skills at all, again look at the Lakers. Phil didnt leave because he wanted to retire, he didnt want to caoch a cock.

I dont think you can argue that Rip lead the pistons last yeare in the final, MVP says it all for that.

:thumbsup:

well most dominating is one thing, but when you can produce similar results without being as dominating, i don't think it's such an issue in that situation. i mean, MJ was never as dominating as shaq but i don't think there is a question who the better player is. outside of shaq though, there are a lot of other star players in the league who, if moved to a second round team could make them championship contenders.

nash did a lot more for phoenix than what shaq did for miami. nash took a bottom feeding team that was nowhere NEAR the playoffs to the best record in the NBA and made them a championship contender. shaq took a playoff team and made them a championship contender. nash turned the suns around 33 games, shaq turned the heat around 17 games. i don't think there is much of a comparison here..

hmm i don't know about that, i don't hear many people blaming KG for what happened. i mean, this might be possible if nothing else was going on with the team but it's not hard to see that there are a bunch of other players on the wolves that are the ones who are really responsible. (cassell, sprewell, olowokandi, szczerbiak..)

well i've never said that kobe wasn't a skilled player.. one on one i'm sure he'd give anybody in the league a good fight. he's just not a 'good' player to have on a team. and you're right about phil not wanting to coach kobe. phil even asked for kobe to be traded..

rip is a good player on a good team, but he can't carry a team by himself. and he wasn't the finals MVP if that's what you're referring to, it was chauncey billups.

[jumperman8]

I think we need ot define dominance in the NBA.

To say micheal was not as dominant as Shaq is a joke, he was more dominant, he could play every position and defend any position. I dont knwo how you can say he was not as dominant as shaq, he could take over a game whenever he wanted and coudl finish games whenever he wanted. There was few people that could defend micheal, well really there was none, he just didnt shoot well games where it appeared he was d'd up good.

My bad on the MVP mix up, i forgot abotu taht shit.

[PGTze]

Originally posted by jumperman8
Again, watch basketball, if you dont hink Rip Hamilton is good, then agian you dont watch much basketball, or Championship ball at least



:rofl:

Well considering he's not even the best player on his own team, then he probably shouldn't be in the top ten. The Pistons are so good because they have a group of very good players that play extremely well together. Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Teyshon Prince, and Billups. You could throw just about any decet SG in there and they would do pretty well for themselves.


All this talk about dominance and so forth is funny. Shaq is a good player, but he still needs someone to throw the ball in to him and he can't hit a shot outside of 5 feet from the basket. Sorry, but I think the best player in the NBA should be able to hit a jump shot once or twice a game.

[saiyajin]

Originally posted by PGTze


All this talk about dominance and so forth is funny. Shaq is a good player, but he still needs someone to throw the ball in to him and he can't hit a shot outside of 5 feet from the basket. Sorry, but I think the best player in the NBA should be able to hit a jump shot once or twice a game.

:werd: i mean at least yao can hit a jumper for christ sake i hate how shaq cant shoot worth shit and is only dominate cuz of his size..under the net hes unstoppable no doubt about it but have him by the key and all you got is a standing 7footer that cant do jack he really needs to work on his shot hah seeing those god awful free throws is well..awful

[u4ia]

i agree with both pgtze and saiyajin concerning shaq.. he's only dominating because of his size, but nonetheless he causes massive problems for opposing teams because no one can stop him close to the net. he's definitely not the #1 player in the league though..

just because MJ is the greatest doesn't necessarily mean he's the most dominating.. and he cannot play every position nor defend every position. (ie - jordan as a center, i don't think so.) a lot of people say this and that about him because they're clouded by his aura of greatness. not taking anything away from him as being the best but dude, he is not superman.

my definition of dominating is that every opposing team out there has to change their game to stop you, and even when they try to do all these different things, they fail. that definition fits shaq.. not that jordan wasn't dominating at all, but he didn't change the way games played out as much as shaq. most coaches who have been around a while will say the same thing.. shaq is just something else.

[jumperman8]

Originally posted by u4ia


just because MJ is the greatest doesn't necessarily mean he's the most dominating.. and he cannot play every position nor defend every position. (ie - jordan as a center, i don't think so.) a lot of people say this and that about him because they're clouded by his aura of greatness. not taking anything away from him as being the best but dude, he is not superman.



Well to your first statement about him not being able to defend nor play every postition, aka him as a center, you need to watch the finals against the suns. Where at times in the game all he did was post up, and not jsut smaller guards. Also he has guarded centers and has been posted up by guys like wilkens, and he still played d.

I dont understand how oyu can say teams didnt change the way they played a game because of him you have to be playing around. Because it was awesome to watch a team play agaisnt another team and watch their defence/offence, then watch tehm play the bulls, where they based their defence around him, and made it as difficult as they coudl for him to score, jsut like shaq now adays.

Either way, i dont get how you can say micheal was not the most dominating player ever, you can watch post game afterpost game where the opossing coach would make remarks such as, "we cant stop him, no one can stop him"
"micheal jordan is the greatest player in the nba, we cant compete with his dominace"

SO on So on, so i think to argue the fact that you dont think he was as dominating as shaq is useless.

Shaq is the best player in the NBA for his position, cant say he isnt, and if you think you can, name who is better, accually name any NBA player that is better then him.

[u4ia]

Originally posted by jumperman8


Well to your first statement about him not being able to defend nor play every postition, aka him as a center, you need to watch the finals against the suns. Where at times in the game all he did was post up, and not jsut smaller guards. Also he has guarded centers and has been posted up by guys like wilkens, and he still played d.

I dont understand how oyu can say teams didnt change the way they played a game because of him you have to be playing around. Because it was awesome to watch a team play agaisnt another team and watch their defence/offence, then watch tehm play the bulls, where they based their defence around him, and made it as difficult as they coudl for him to score, jsut like shaq now adays.

Either way, i dont get how you can say micheal was not the most dominating player ever, you can watch post game afterpost game where the opossing coach would make remarks such as, "we cant stop him, no one can stop him"
"micheal jordan is the greatest player in the nba, we cant compete with his dominace"

SO on So on, so i think to argue the fact that you dont think he was as dominating as shaq is useless.

Shaq is the best player in the NBA for his position, cant say he isnt, and if you think you can, name who is better, accually name any NBA player that is better then him.

just because you post up doesn't mean you're a center, nor does does simply playing defense against another center mean you're actually able to. they're called mismatches and it does happen. actually playing center is grinding it out in the trenches, and jordan doesn't do that. remember when magic played center for kareem when he was injured? that's really playing center..

every team adapts their strategy around the other team's star, but that's not what i was saying. changing the way the game unfolds is totally different.. shaq affects all the little things. the fact that the hack-a-shaq strategy exists shows his dominance. yes i know MJ can shoot free throws and shaq can't. but even if shaq could shoot 90% at the line, would you as a coach not take the risk anyways if he is going to be 100% in the key? and the intimidation factor.. MJ doesn't quite have this. picture this.. opponent beats wade off the dribble, and guess what, shaq is right behind him. this intimidates a lot of players into settling for jumpers. i'm sure both dwyane and kobe would say that shaq makes playing d a lot easier knowing there is a 325lb monster to save your ass. MJ plays great d, but he just doesn't have this type of effect.. this is part of shaq's 'dominance'.

neither michael or shaq are the most dominating ever.. if you're talking about that, then it's wilt chamberlain and this is absolutely not debatable. i think your definition of dominating is a bit different than mine..

shaq is the best center in the NBA, i'd agree with that. but he is not the best player in the NBA by a longshot. the word 'best' keeps getting thrown around and it means absolutely nothing unless you define it. when talking about the best player, i'm guaging skill. and by this measure he is nowhere near the best. but if you mean 'best' as in most impact.. then it is possible that he's #1. but judging from your top 10 list, it's difficult to tell what you are referring to. because if you mean skill wise, shaq is not #1.. and if you mean impact, then definitely stephon marbury is not #8 and rip is not #10. so i dunno.. :dunno:

[jumperman8]

Originally posted by u4ia


just because you post up doesn't mean you're a center, nor does does simply playing defense against another center mean you're actually able to. they're called mismatches and it does happen. actually playing center is grinding it out in the trenches, and jordan doesn't do that. remember when magic played center for kareem when he was injured? that's really playing center..

every team adapts their strategy around the other team's star, but that's not what i was saying. changing the way the game unfolds is totally different.. shaq affects all the little things. the fact that the hack-a-shaq strategy exists shows his dominance. yes i know MJ can shoot free throws and shaq can't. but even if shaq could shoot 90% at the line, would you as a coach not take the risk anyways if he is going to be 100% in the key? and the intimidation factor.. MJ doesn't quite have this. picture this.. opponent beats wade off the dribble, and guess what, shaq is right behind him. this intimidates a lot of players into settling for jumpers. i'm sure both dwyane and kobe would say that shaq makes playing d a lot easier knowing there is a 325lb monster to save your ass. MJ plays great d, but he just doesn't have this type of effect.. this is part of shaq's 'dominance'.

neither michael or shaq are the most dominating ever.. if you're talking about that, then it's wilt chamberlain and this is absolutely not debatable. i think your definition of dominating is a bit different than mine..

shaq is the best center in the NBA, i'd agree with that. but he is not the best player in the NBA by a longshot. the word 'best' keeps getting thrown around and it means absolutely nothing unless you define it. when talking about the best player, i'm guaging skill. and by this measure he is nowhere near the best. but if you mean 'best' as in most impact.. then it is possible that he's #1. but judging from your top 10 list, it's difficult to tell what you are referring to. because if you mean skill wise, shaq is not #1.. and if you mean impact, then definitely stephon marbury is not #8 and rip is not #10. so i dunno.. :dunno:


I really dont liek to argue the Wilt factor, jsut because i think the "times" were so different it is too hard to tell...

But your MJ points are good, i still personally feel he is the most dominating player ever to play, i honestly dont see how you dont think that, he coudl jsut take a game over whenever and close games out.

You seem to not like my top 10 list, so why dont you post your top 10, and then ill give you my opinion on it?

:dunno:

[u4ia]

times don't really matter since you're talking about most dominant EVER. 'ever' doesn't mean since MJ entered the league..

well i honestly don't see how you could think MJ is more dominant than wilt. 50ppg? 27rpg? 55 rebounds in one game? 100 points in one game? .727 fg pct? they had to change the rules just to try to stop him.. there is absolutely no way that MJ is more dominating. dude, you just gotta come to terms with the fact that MJ being the greatest of all time doesn't mean he's the best at every aspect of basketall. he is not the best rebounder, or the best passer, or the best defender, nor is he the most dominating, and he can't leap tall buildings in a single bound. what makes him the greatest is that he can do everything well. no offense to you or anything but i personally think a lot of people attribute things to MJ that are simply untrue, based solely on his legendary status and not necessarily on any facts.

i don't really have a problem with your top 10, i just had a problem figuring out what you were basing it on because i could not find consistency according to either of the two criteria that seem logical. (skill or impact.)

but if i were to make a top 10 based purely on skill.. it'd go something like this:

1. KG
2. lebron
3. TD
4. AI
5. dirk
6. t-mac
7. wade
8. kobe
9. ray allen
10. amare

again this is purely based on skill.. the list would be drastically different if other things were taken into consideration. (ie - taking factors such as position into consideration would get guys like shaq and nash on.) but for the moment, i consider these guys as having the most complete 'tools' in the league.

[jumperman8]

Originally posted by u4ia
times don't really matter since you're talking about most dominant EVER. 'ever' doesn't mean since MJ entered the league..

well i honestly don't see how you could think MJ is more dominant than wilt. 50ppg? 27rpg? 55 rebounds in one game? 100 points in one game? .727 fg pct? they had to change the rules just to try to stop him.. there is absolutely no way that MJ is more dominating. dude, you just gotta come to terms with the fact that MJ being the greatest of all time doesn't mean he's the best at every aspect of basketall. he is not the best rebounder, or the best passer, or the best defender, nor is he the most dominating, and he can't leap tall buildings in a single bound. what makes him the greatest is that he can do everything well. no offense to you or anything but i personally think a lot of people attribute things to MJ that are simply untrue, based solely on his legendary status and not necessarily on any facts.

i don't really have a problem with your top 10, i just had a problem figuring out what you were basing it on because i could not find consistency according to either of the two criteria that seem logical. (skill or impact.)

but if i were to make a top 10 based purely on skill.. it'd go something like this:

1. KG
2. lebron
3. TD
4. AI
5. dirk
6. t-mac
7. wade
8. kobe
9. ray allen
10. amare

again this is purely based on skill.. the list would be drastically different if other things were taken into consideration. (ie - taking factors such as position into consideration would get guys like shaq and nash on.) but for the moment, i consider these guys as having the most complete 'tools' in the league.

To say that MJ jsut did everyhting "well" is disrespectful. What he did for the NBA can not be and will not be matched by any player, other then maybe lebron. I dont care what you say abotu times, because tehn you have to take bill russel in to consideration with his journey to 8 championships. Times matter alot, most highschool palyers now, 2005 acould of played in the nba 50 years ago. That is the fact ath tiems cahnge, thereforei dont argue with times at all.

Plus MJ is the best, will always be known as the best and noone will ever top that. Ever.

Sometimes i dont think you watch much basketball, because you dont want to compare MJ's Stats over his career to any other player. And MJ was a great defender, not a god or well defender great. you dont win defensive honors for being a good defender.

You list is kind of funny to be honest. If you are going based on skill. Lebron ha to be top. He is the most skilled player in the NBA jsut hasnt learned to use it all. And not have shaq top 10 is a joke. I dont see how you can say he is all size. you dont score 30 and 40 points because you are bigger then everyone else. He is very skilled. Has very soft hands. He can hit the jump hook, finihs with guys holding onto his arms and can pass. I dont care what you say about shaq he si skilled.

Dirk before wade and allen. Dirk can shoot, and rebound. Not a very effective passer though. So i dont see how you can put him in front of wade who can pass, score and rebound. Same with allen.

And i honestly think you hafe to have Nash in there for skill, can hit the three, jump shot, pass, and for his size can get some decent numbers on boards.

Other then that i think your list wasnt that bad.

[u4ia]

Originally posted by jumperman8

To say that MJ jsut did everyhting "well" is disrespectful. What he did for the NBA can not be and will not be matched by any player, other then maybe lebron. I dont care what you say abotu times, because tehn you have to take bill russel in to consideration with his journey to 8 championships. Times matter alot, most highschool palyers now, 2005 acould of played in the nba 50 years ago. That is the fact ath tiems cahnge, thereforei dont argue with times at all.

didn't mean for the word 'well' to be a negative thing. but i guess you want a better superlative to describe MJ, so let's go with great. how's that? anyways, it's quite irrelevant. i never questioned what he did for the NBA.. we were talking about dominance. bill russell was never as dominating as wilt chamberlain.. sure he has 8 championships but that does not translate into individual dominance. i'll say it again.. times don't matter because you were talking about most dominating EVER. not most dominating in the 60's.. or the 80's, 90's, or now. what does the word EVER mean to you?


Plus MJ is the best, will always be known as the best and noone will ever top that. Ever.

this is such a close minded and ignorant thing to say.. he is the best so far. that's the most you can say about him. how can you say that he will always be known as the best and that one one will ever top him ever? can you see into the future? how are you so sure of this? don't you think that at one time, nobody thought anyone could ever be better than say wilt or kareem? then MJ comes along.. so how can you say that this exact same thing cannot possibly happen again in the future? this is exactly what i mean when people say all this crazy stuff about MJ because they're so clouded by his greatness. fanaticism at its best..


Sometimes i dont think you watch much basketball, because you dont want to compare MJ's Stats over his career to any other player. And MJ was a great defender, not a god or well defender great. you dont win defensive honors for being a good defender.

how does the amount of basketball one watches tie into not wanting to compare MJ's stats?? :dunno: i'm pretty confused on this one considering i didn't say anything about not wanting to look at stats. but since we're talking about dominance, i don't think it's necessary to compare anybody's stats to wilt's because it would just be a waste of time. it is common knowledge that he put up the most ridiculous numbers in league history.. so what's there to compare? ok, jordan is not a good defender. he's a great defender. that doesn't change anything in this debate..



You list is kind of funny to be honest. If you are going based on skill. Lebron ha to be top. He is the most skilled player in the NBA jsut hasnt learned to use it all. And not have shaq top 10 is a joke. I dont see how you can say he is all size. you dont score 30 and 40 points because you are bigger then everyone else. He is very skilled. Has very soft hands. He can hit the jump hook, finihs with guys holding onto his arms and can pass. I dont care what you say about shaq he si skilled.

why does lebron have to be on top? KG has plenty to justify his ranking at #1. the guy is a freak and has skills that no one else has at his size. he's also the most well rounded and versatile player in the league and can make a legitimate claim for being able to play all 5 positions convincingly well. lebron is great too, which is why i put him #2. but he just isn't as complete as KG quite yet. no shame in that, he's only 20 and is further along than KG was when he was 20. but we're only looking at the present time so that's why i have them in that order.

you really think shaq is top 10 skill wise? look at the other players on the list. do you really think shaq is more skilled than any one of them? and if so, who? i didn't say shaq is not skilled. i think his size is a big part of why he's so dominating, but nonetheless the guy has skill. notice how i said that if my list took positions into consideration, then shaq would have made it since he is skilled for his position.


Dirk before wade and allen. Dirk can shoot, and rebound. Not a very effective passer though. So i dont see how you can put him in front of wade who can pass, score and rebound. Same with allen.

dirk is also a good shotblocker, and i don't agree that he's not an effective passer. obviously not as good as wade, but dirk is not a guard. dirk's got a lot more range than wade as well. the guy is tall, fast, rebounds well, blocks shots, can drive and is a deadly shooter. what more do you want? there is a reason why he finished 3rd in MVP voting.

5rpg does not make you a good rebounder.. it's more like wade can score and pass, and ray just scores. ray averaged 3.7apg this season if you didn't notice.. a whole 0.6 higher than dirk whom you claim is not an effective passer. :dunno: i don't see either one as being anything better than average on the boards. but, if you see 5rpg as being good, that would make dirk a rebounding god so nonetheless it's a point in his favour.


And i honestly think you hafe to have Nash in there for skill, can hit the three, jump shot, pass, and for his size can get some decent numbers on boards.

i agree with your assessment of nash.. but again, he's not more skilled than the 10 on the list so therefore he's not on it. i'd put him in the 11-15 range though, and he'd be top 10 if position was factored in. props to him for winning the MVP too, he totally deserved it! :thumbsup:

[jumperman8]

Im not going to lie to you, i read the first paragraph then stopped, to much reading lol.

But whatever, bill russel was very dominating. And im not a huge fan of MJ, but how can oyu not like him.

Anyways, been fun discussing wiht you. But it seems we jsut go back to the same thing.
lol

PEace:thumbsup:

[u4ia]

haha yeah it was a long post..

russell was indeed dominating, defensively. i might have come off as a jordan hater, but that's actually quite the opposite. i do think he's the greatest and really enjoyed watching him playing back in the day.

well, have fun watching the playoffs. :thumbsup: