Water Injection - worth it?

[el_fefes]

Hey, I've recenly heard of people adding water injection to their turbo cars....what's so great about that mod...and is it worth it?

[BumpinTalon]

it is like in-cylinder cooling, sort of comparable to an intercooler. funny cars use it instead of intercoolers since a screw supercharged setup is not condusive to being intercooled like turbocharged cars. it is apparently extremely effective and considering it costs less then it would to upgrade or add a FMIC, it is a good thing to add to your car if you plan to run more boost.
for instance, on a turbocharged 2GNT, water cooling dropped the air intake temp from 127 degrees to 91 at wide open throttle, in a 3rd gear pull.
you can check out a very cheap DIY deal here http://www.dawesdevices.com/howto.html I'm not sure about his application but he measured a 90 degree drop intake temperature. While its not comparable to an equivalent temperature drop that you would get from a better intercooler, considering the cost involved its not bad at all.

[Primer_Drift]

If you're really serious, water-methanol injection works very well for lowering knock and charge temps. Main problem with methanol is that its corrosive and will eat up anything that isn't stainless so special methanol fuel lines and injectors are needed.

Quote from a good website
"The injection of water does decrease the dew point of the exhaust gases. This has potential corrosion problems. The very high specific heat and heat of vaporisation of water means that the combustion temperature will decrease. It has been shown that a 10% water addition to methanol reduces the power and efficiency by about 3%, and doubles the unburnt fuel emissions, but does reduce NOx by 25%. A decrease in combustion temperature will reduce the theoretical maximum possible efficiency of an otto cycle engine that is operating correctly"

So overall it decreases efficiency but will allow higher charge temps (higher boost levels) before detonation occurs, the result is more power with a bit of added safety. :thumbsup:

[legendboy]

Moved to FI

[turbo minivan]

water/alcahol injection is a chemical version of intercooling, basicly like the others have said. ive heard good and bad though. good being the drop in temp and higher boost advantages, but the alcahol will wipe the oil right off your cylender walls, its not too friendly on your compressor blades (if your injecting it into the intake side anyway) and depending on how you set it up (if you use a pressure switch) if your switch fails or somthing dosnt work all of a sudden, well then at high boost your about to melt somthing and smash up your pistons with basicly a ball peen hammer! i have a fat stack of papers and word documents on it and how to do it a couple difforent ways if you want. e-mail me and ill hook you up. [email protected]
also, unless your gona be running it on an engine making over 15 psi, or with high compression pistons, dont bother with it all, it wont be worth you wile.

[JCX]

Turbo Buicks very very often use alky / water injection. There are also getting to be a number of the SRT-4 guys using it as well. If set up right if definitely works.

[icydude666]

I know i have considered water injection a fair bit for my next gtr coming as on 91 octane it will allow me to run higher boost.......yet i knwo very little about it.

all i knwo is its goign to stop the gas from igniting before its suposed to.

[EK 2.0]

Originally posted by icydude666
I know i have considered water injection a fair bit for my next gtr coming as on 91 octane it will allow me to run higher boost.......yet i knwo very little about it.

all i knwo is its goign to stop the gas from igniting before its suposed to.

I don't know much about the Edmonton Gas Scene...but why not run 94 on the GT-R??

[icydude666]

we have 94 in about 7 stations and they are not clsoe to me.....id much rather tune it to 91 and not have to worry about getting gas at onyl certain locations.

[turbo minivan]

i built a system for my van the other day and it works great! i have NO electrical or pumps of any kind on it either. its nice, and i did it all myself. send me an e-mail if you want to see how i did it.
i see NO down fall to it all on my van!! it will light the tires up like nothing youve seen! ive heard of a guy in the states with a set up on his daytona making 500 hp with an alcohol injection set up
with very little else done to it.

[turbo minivan]

i did a bit of tuning and calibrating on my system last night and today i spun my tires at about 5K for about 250 feet to the middle of 3rd gear in my automatic 3 speed!! now granted it was a bit wet when i did it but i can guarentee it would do the same on dry pavement with that alcahol!!! holy crap it was fast!! driving it home from work today on these wet roads with the alcahol was kinda scary!! the tires would practicly light up evry time the peddle was more a quarter ways in! wow!! definatley e-mail me and ill show you how i did it ALL myself for about $8 (the price of a jug of methanol) you ALL need this!! its awsome and will work on non turbo cars too!

Brandon.:clap:

[turbo minivan]

oh, and another nice thing about it, is that my A/F gauge will hit all 10 lights evry time! i laugh at the thought of detonation or going lean!!:burnout:

[finboy]

too much effort for me, i'd rather just get a good tune with big injectors and get some 94, but thats just me :dunno:

[turbo minivan]

you dont have 2 hours to spare and maby $20 ?? too bad, you must be a buisy guy strapped for cash cause i did it in about 2 hours and it cost me nothing, it would probly cost you $20 cause you probly dont have the parts i have laying around all over.
aaauuuuggghhh...... parts laying all over...
:drool:

[finboy]

Originally posted by turbo minivan
you dont have 2 hours to spare and maby $20 ?? too bad, you must be a buisy guy strapped for cash cause i did it in about 2 hours and it cost me nothing, it would probly cost you $20 cause you probly dont have the parts i have laying around all over.
aaauuuuggghhh...... parts laying all over...
:drool:

injectors and a callibration take 10 minutes to instal ;)

[Primer_Drift]

Originally posted by finboy
too much effort for me, i'd rather just get a good tune with big injectors and get some 94, but thats just me :dunno:

Actually it was proven by Sir Harry Ricardo over 60 years ago that throwing more fuel at the problem will not stop detonation indefinetly, it will eventually reach its specific knock limit. In fact past a certain point the fuel will actually increase detonation.

Just somethin to think about ;)

Links
RSR water injection (http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html)
Water injection effects on the hydrocarbon combustion process (http://www.eng-tips.com/faqs.cfm?fid=811) <-- good graph at bottom of the page explains when Water-Alky is used


Turbo minivan please email me about your setup, very interested thanks!

[finboy]

Originally posted by Primer_Drift


Actually it was proven by Sir Harry Ricardo over 60 years ago that throwing more fuel at the problem will not stop detonation indefinetly, it will eventually reach its specific knock limit. In fact past a certain point the fuel will actually increase detonation.

Just somethin to think about ;)

Links
RSR water injection (http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html)
Water injection effects on the hydrocarbon combustion process (http://www.eng-tips.com/faqs.cfm?fid=811) &lt;-- good graph at bottom of the page explains when Water-Alky is used


Turbo minivan please email me about your setup, very interested thanks!

it is not likely that i will reach those limits any time soon on a street set up, motors similar to mine (in calgary) have made well over 300 wheel hp and 400 wheel ft/lbs by just using 52 lb/hr injectors and a good tune, and out of town making 400+hp on the 8v cyl head.

after seeing those numbers, i really don't see why i would need much more for the street, or why i should bother ghetto'ing togeather an injection system when its really not needed. i *could* just add an extra injector or two for my car for about 40 bucks (hobbes pressure switch is about that much), it would work, but it's just more chance of something going wrong, when a simple solution will work just as well and not break. I've been in calgary's turbo dodge scene for a few years now, i've tried ghetto stuff (which is why the cost of my car has gone up so much, i've wanted to run about 4 different setups on my car), and i've seen others use ghetto items on their car, and they blow up. for a street car, to make consistent usable power (as in not blowing the tires away until 4th gear), and remain on the street, it's still IMO best to not ghetto mods, and shoot for a reasonable hp level.

just something to think about ;)

[Primer_Drift]

Originally posted by finboy


it is not likely that i will reach those limits any time soon on a street set up, motors similar to mine (in calgary) have made well over 300 wheel hp and 400 wheel ft/lbs by just using 52 lb/hr injectors and a good tune, and out of town making 400+hp on the 8v cyl head.

after seeing those numbers, i really don't see why i would need much more for the street, or why i should bother ghetto'ing togeather an injection system when its really not needed. i *could* just add an extra injector or two for my car for about 40 bucks (hobbes pressure switch is about that much), it would work, but it's just more chance of something going wrong, when a simple solution will work just as well and not break. I've been in calgary's turbo dodge scene for a few years now, i've tried ghetto stuff (which is why the cost of my car has gone up so much, i've wanted to run about 4 different setups on my car), and i've seen others use ghetto items on their car, and they blow up. for a street car, to make consistent usable power (as in not blowing the tires away until 4th gear), and remain on the street, it's still IMO best to not ghetto mods, and shoot for a reasonable hp level.

just something to think about ;)

I think of it more as a safety, than a power adder. That alone is a good reason to consider water injection on any car that is pushed to its limit. I wasn't suggesting you necessarily ghetto a water inj system together. There are many good systems on the market like Aquamist, RSR, Snowperformance. The performance and safety gains from these systems is unquestionable.

I agree with you though, for a street vehicle its best to shoot for something reasonable.. like over 300hp. j/j :thumbsup:

[finboy]

Originally posted by Primer_Drift


I think of it more as a safety, than a power adder. That alone is a good reason to consider water injection on any car that is pushed to its limit. I wasn't suggesting you necessarily ghetto a water inj system together. There are many good systems on the market like Aquamist, RSR, Snowperformance. The performance and safety gains from these systems is unquestionable.

I agree with you though, for a street vehicle its best to shoot for something reasonable.. like over 300hp. j/j :thumbsup:

non ghetto systems work well i'm sure, i just think its overkill for a streetable fwd 4 cyl.

and more then 300 whp might be fine for a honda because it will only have 200 ft/lbs of torque ;) j/k man :thumbsup:

[JCX]

Originally posted by finboy


non ghetto systems work well i'm sure, i just think its overkill for a streetable fwd 4 cyl.



It's becoming increasingly common on the SRT-4s actually. All the best stock turbo #'s seem to be coming from water / alky users. Granted the stock turbo and manifold are kinda shitty.

I actually thought about looking into is but am too scared. The kits are actually quite reasonably priced.

[finboy]

Originally posted by JCX


It's becoming increasingly common on the SRT-4s actually. All the best stock turbo #'s seem to be coming from water / alky users. Granted the stock turbo and manifold are kinda shitty.

I actually thought about looking into is but am too scared. The kits are actually quite reasonably priced.

i'd just ditch the turbo off the srt4, personally i'm not a fan of how it feels while driving it :dunno:

[turbo minivan]

guetto or not, my stuff works awsome so far, and if i blow somthing up... melted pistons make for cool belt buckles! :D

[JCX]

Originally posted by finboy


i'd just ditch the turbo off the srt4, personally i'm not a fan of how it feels while driving it :dunno:

The quick spool is a bit of a pain sometimes. I'd like to go stage 3, but the problem is I don't really want to spend $6K for the kit and a clutch right now.