What the scientists say...Kyoto...

[Maxt]

We've heard what politicians have been pushing as far as kyoto goes, here is the viewpoint from Canada's leading scientists of climatology, needless to say, the politicians of this country dont want to hear this viewpoint, they picked up the ball and ran so fast with it, its kinda hard for the likes of Martin, Anderson et al, to back down on it now, even though they have been told the science used to formulate Kyoto was flawed..
Watch the videos, and decide for yourself I guess..Maxt

http://www.friendsofscience.org/index.php?ide=3

[Shaolin]

I haven't watched the video or anything.. but I was in a training session at work the other day and the lead scientist/chemist was our teacher. While we were talking about the agricultural part during the session he mentioned about the Kyoto Accord. I don't remember what he says but I do remember him saying, "Want to know the best way to help the Kyoto accord? Get a billion people to commit suicide."

All of us guys in the class laughed.

[Phy]

That's what some scientists say. A few websites and articles don't make scientific consensus, and they don't necessarily imply scientific accuracy either.

The problem with climate change is that it's a Big Issue, which leads to charismatic (or simply loud) voices publishing in the mainstream media, drowning out whatever scientific consensus there may be. I'm sure it's not coincidental that most of these loud voices are saying that it's not as bad as we thought, there's really nothing to worry about. People like to be told that their house really isn't on fire.

And from what I understand, what Shaolin's teacher said was absolutely right.

[rice_eater]

you mean the welth transfer system of the kyoto accord is flawed??? noooo...

[rice_eater]

"I'm sure it's not coincidental that most of these loud voices are saying that it's not as bad as we thought, there's really nothing to worry about. People like to be told that their house really isn't on fire"

how about the people that profit from creating wide spread panics? like potential outbreak this, iminent infection that, widespread extinction something else... who holds these people responsible when these events that we have been conditioned to be so afraid off never happen. where is the new avian flu and sars virus outbreaks we were expecting? what happened to the imminent flu vaccine shortage that was supposed to defend us from the upcoming ravaging flu...last winter :rolleyes: my point is, you will always find a bunch of scientists that will tell your point of view the way you want people to hear it. also there is no doubt that the "science" behind the kyoto protocol is flawed, one of the major pushers for that theory admited its flaws a while back.

[Phy]

How often do you actually hear that we avoided another close brush with avian flu because stricter bird-handling protocols were implemented; or that yeah, we managed to scrape together enough vaccine to prevent a noticable flu epidemic (or that the strain may have mutated again into something less virulent); or that cutting back on CFCs is still having a slowing effect on the erosion of the ozone layer?

Going back to the house metaphor - nobody gives a shit when you put out your smoke in the ashtray and keep your house from burning down.


you will always find a bunch of scientists that will tell your point of view the way you want people to hear it.

Yeah. That's one of the biggest problems with basing policy decisions on scientific theory - especially when there's no clear consensus to the public.

[Maxt]

The problem is alot of these eco driven movements are fueled by alterior motives, alot of the data is skewed by anti corporate leftwing zealots just trying to find another way to take a backhanded swipe at business, those same zealots end up making a business of activism, do as I say, not as I do, does Mr. Suzuki walk from payed speech to pay speech, no , he flies, spreading the word on the evils of using convenient fossil fuels.
Its hard to really differentiate what is a real threat and what is not, when the fields are ripe with hypocrasy.
This group in the Video, those people are Canadas top scientists, Dr Tim Ball was the first Canadian with a Phd in Climatology, I am far more convinced by his word than that of politician, or Suzuki, who makes has made his fortunes grasping on to theories that the sky is falling, remember Suzuki in the 80's was telling us that in 20 years, we were going to all freeze to death in a ice age.
Most of those people from that site, have been on mainstream media, they have been shut out by anything government controlled,CBC, Enviroment Canada, National debate on climate change etc etc in order to protect the politicians from being exposed as idiots for signing us on to the Kyoto accord.. Rutherford has interviewed most of those people, as has Rod Breckenridge and those types, none of the liberals filling the seat of enviroment minister have agreed to meet with these people, our politicians chose to ignore our greatest source of knowledge on enviromental issues, what does that tell you about our government.
In the 80s it was acid rain, in the 90's it was refrigerant and ozone depletion, which actually has been debunked as nothing more than a make work project for bureacracies. Countries signed on to the montreal protocol to limit the use and production of cfc's since they signed that accord, the ozone hole has shrunk, pretty miraculous considering cfc production world wide has increased, especially with Chinese and other 3rd world Industrialization.. Not to mention the hole started to shrink before the "breakdown" life of the r-12 used in that time period was reached...
Every year we are able to observe more and more of the structure of our existance, its a good thing, but I think we are guilty as society of running with short term observation of our time, and making decisions we think will maintain our existance, yet we are ignorant of cycles that existed far longer than our powers of observation , or us as a species.
Listen to the first clip on that page, listen to the rhetoric to support the cause de jour, Chretien, "people will die in 30 years" etc etc, Chretien loved kyoto, not for its enviromental implications but because of his personal project called the 3rd world, its fine to be a boyscout with the proceeds of other peoples work, Chretien was more driven by his International image , than his national one, not a great quality to have in a Prime Minister..
Wealth transfer, thats all its about...

[three.eighteen.]

i think i've seen Dr Ball speak in person, he's actually pretty entertaining as well, but his argument is basically that we get worried about what gets published for us to worry about

[nhlfan]

We now use 6 barrels of oil for every barrel of oil we find. a slight decrease in the amount available will increase prices drastically, and people will conserve fuels much more. Less emissions and such because of this. I dont know if global warming or anything like that will ever have a chance to happen. :dunno: