Test Drive: 2003 Honda Civic SIR EP3

[AsianCaucasian]

So… Skyline_Addict and I got out of work a little early yesterday so we decided to take a little trip to T&T Honda. First off, the salesman wouldn’t even acknowledge us as we were looking at the cars but finally one saleswoman decided to come over and talk with us. I was told that there was only one Civic SIR left on the lot and that it was a ’02 with 94000kms!!! She asked me what I drive and I told her I had a 2004 Mazda3 that was fully loaded. I got the rudest response back, “Oh, that car, yeah it looks nice but when you start driving it you’ll realize it’s not worth your money, the civic is much better.” Umm… yeah ok. “Are you going to want to trade it in?” I told her yes and she quickly replied “Yeah, I don’t want it.” Well that’s great b*tch. When I asked the price I got a gigantic rip off listing of 21500. She told me that the car’s price was so high because it was no longer in production and that it was a car for enthusiasts to collect and that it was because the car begs to be driven. :rolleye: Well… I decided to take her up on that and Skyline_Addict and I strolled into the lot where we saw another SIR with 33000kms. She was kinda shocked that there was another (not surprising to me because she seemed like a dumbass) and went to get the keys… She promptly decided to get in WITH us.

So now my impressions of the car… but first a disclaimer. I have never been a Honda fan… sure, some of them are great cars but CERTAINLY not this one.

Well for starters, I’m a big noob at driving stick, but I can drive it ok and I don’t stall all that much… kinda. Getting into the EP3 though, I was greeted with a so-so interior, plain gauges and a ridiculous shifter. You can’t even lean your hand on an armrest or something while shifting, that has to get tiring over time. So, I start the car… I don’t even know wtf gear I’m in because the stupid shifter is complete crap. I put it into gear, hold the clutch and press the gas. Stall. Restart the car and try again. Stall. Hmm… maybe it’s because I’m a total noob… wait no. The clutch has absolutely no feedback, gearbox as well. I finally get it into a parking lot where I’m testing it’s pickup and it’s handling by taking tight lines around those big cement blocks that house light poles. The acceleration was disappointing to say the least, I expected a LOT more from a K20 than that. Vtec was loud and provided a slight push, but was nothing compared to A2VR6’s Type S that we test drove last week. To describe the handling in one neat totally made up word… Craptastic. The wheel was loose, the turn-in slow, the friggin thing understeers and does not have the agile reflexes of either the Type S last week or the Mazda3 GT the week before. All in all I was pretty disappointed in the car as I heard good things about it before. A2VR6 has test driven the car before and he basically had told us earlier that the car was not worth test driving. I now see why.

Just so you guys don’t think I am biased, I will let you know that Skyline_Addict, who is a diehard Honda fan agreed with me as well. We took turns driving the car (mostly cause I suck at it) and he thought the same as I did. He said that he would take an Acura EL over the EP3. To quote him directly : “I know it’s a Civic… but it feels like a Civic, not like the top model Civic it’s supposed to be… It feels cheap.”

Well, for the positives… I like the exterior of the car although most think that the EP3 is the ugliest of all Civic, I kinda like it. That is all.

[max_boost]

Should have asked to test drive the S2000, not the Civic!!!!

[sl888]

:thumbsdow

[rc2002]

I test drove a brand new EP3 a coule years ago and I also found that they lack in the suspension and power departments. The Mazda 3 with the 2.3L pulls a lot harder, and handles WAY better. It seems to be better in every way (except maybe quality and reliability which still remains to be seen), which probably explains why they are such a success. When I test drove a Mazda 3, there were none in stock. I would've had to put a deposit down and wait for it to come in from Japan.

[ex1z7]

I wasn't very impressed with anything about the SiR when I drove around with a friend before, either. It seemed pretty.. dodgy.

[Darkane]

Lol VTAK in this car "kicks" in at 2200rpm. Its more of a VTEC-E than anything while only the intake cam has more than one lobe and the exhuast is the same as any other DOHC NON-VTEC. K20A2 :thumbsup: A3 :thumbsdow

[Skyline_Addict]

I didn't have any issue with the gearbox driveablity wise like AC (cause i'm not noob ;)), but I can agree that was definetely the worst out of all the cars I've driven so far.

First of all, whoever says that the position of the shifter is "better" or "more in place" is wrong. Using that shifter is annoying, inconvenient and looks like ass (for those of you that don't know, it sticks out of the centre console!). Honda better scrap that craptastic concept. It was indeed alot tougher to tell what gear you were in compared to traditionally positioned shifters, but this might have had to do with not being accustomed to it.

The interior was as modest as it gets, something you don't expect in above-economy Honda models of this recently. The gauges looked like they were printed off a bubblejet printer. I thought the center console was decent, but what ruins it is a shift knob sticking out of it...
:barf: It's a cool concept and all...but it doesn't work!

Even more modest was the performance. I did not at any point feel like I was driving the "top line" Civic. It felt just like a civic - which it is - but which is also why I was so dissapointed. Pick-up was Civic-like, acceleration was Civic-like. It felt like any other Civic, just with a different shell. For the price, I would've taken an Acura EL fully loaded anyday. You'll get a better looking car (IMO), with an undeniably superior interior and comfort features, better handling (yes, I said it :)). Though the car would definetely slower than an SiR, you'd get over it pretty fast as you'd still be getting a significantly better value for money car IMHO - this is coming from a person who loves sports compacts, saying a 4-door granny car is better.

It's not a surprise that the SiR didn't sell well. It might even have something to do with the dealerships too, which I will comment about now (T&T). Just so you guys know, like AC said the dealer came to us. She did not, I had to go over and talk to her. The condition of the SiR she mentioned was crap. Interior smelt like a cheap motel room (Smoker) and was in poor condition. Brake rotors where warped and rusted to shit and the list goes on. All this going for 21,500. My Prelude was in better condition than 100% of the used Hondas on that lot, and it's a 1997. As AC said, no one came to help us. We're both pretty obviously younger guys, but this has not happened at any of the other dealerships. The lady who helped us was rude, and didn't really seem intent on selling the car so much. When she came to ride with us, she just sat in the back seat and played with her nails.

As I'm not a big fan of the styling, I was hoping the performance could please me...but I don't think it did. :)
I'm sure the Civic Type R would've been a whole different story....in a whole different country, lol.



AC, you better thank me for getting you out of the parking lot! LOL.

[AsianCaucasian]

Originally posted by Skyline_Addict

AC, you better thank me for getting you out of the parking lot! LOL.

bastard.

[Skyline_Addict]

Originally posted by AsianCaucasian


bastard.

where's the love ;)?

[BigMass]

I test drove a brand new 2004 SIR last year. I thought for the money it was decent. I had no problems driving it what so ever. The position of the shifter was natural and felt fine. You only move you hand towards the shifter when you’re going to shift. You dont just hang onto it the whole drive like you’re choking the chicken :tongue:

The handling and speed felt standard for a car in the class and price range. The quality felt above average and it felt well put together and solid. The Mazda 3 is also a great car i'll give it that. I dont think you can say 100% that one is better than the other. My friend has a Mazda 3. The handling and speed is nice, but he's also on his 3rd gearbox with that car. So reliability and quality is another thing to consider.

People need to figure out these cars are not sports cars. They are economy cars. Reliable, good on gas, and a little "sporty."

One last thing about the shifter. To me it is a neat concept. It wanst anything spectacular but nothing that was distracting. I could see how it could speed up shifts since the position is higher than a regular shifter and closer to the steering wheel where you hand should be when its not shifting gears.

[Supa Dexta]

I'd send a message about the service to t&t..(hell I even looked it up for you:)

here you are (http://www.t-t-honda.com/Dealership.cfm)

I know when I bought a car at crowfoot honda they were dying to hear back, sending letters and leaving messages asking about how I was treated... I was also on many lots while looking and they were usally on me quicker than I could get put of the car...

:)

[Weapon_R]

You should learn how to drive a manual before you cut up the SIR like that. I think they are a fantastic car for what you'd expect from a Honda - reliable, great on gas, shifts and drives well, and a little peppy for the money.

Shifting is no different than if the shifter were in the center console. How you guys couldn't figure out what gear you were in is beyond me...its the same, just in a different position and arguably better located. Some drivers swear by the positioning on the dash, rather than between the seats.

[Skyline_Addict]

Originally posted by Weapon_R
You should learn how to drive a manual before you cut up the SIR like that. I think they are a fantastic car for what you'd expect from a Honda - reliable, great on gas, shifts and drives well, and a little peppy for the money.

Shifting is no different than if the shifter were in the center console. How you guys couldn't figure out what gear you were in is beyond me...its the same, just in a different position and arguably better located. Some drivers swear by the positioning on the dash, rather than between the seats.


it wasn't hard to figure out, nor was I unable too.
it just felt weird. when you have to lift your hand to shift as opposed to resting it, the feeling is alot different because the shifter now points at you at a different angel. that's why it it was more difficult to tell "which gear" you're in.
the shifting has alot to do with feeling, some people like it in the SiR, some people don't. it might grow on me over time, if I drove it more....but a Test-Drive is all about first impressions.



honda is still my favorite brand right now! you can't be perfect everytime!

[88CRX]

wow.... i think your the first person to complain about the shifter in the ep3 :thumbsdow


personally i wouldnt drive a mazda 3 if you gave me one.

so IMO ep3 > 3 :D

[FiveFreshFish]

Originally posted by Weapon_R
How you guys couldn't figure out what gear you were in is beyond me...its the same, just in a different position and arguably better located. Some drivers swear by the positioning on the dash, rather than between the seats.
:werd: Here's another car with a similarly located shifter.

http://www.allsportauto.com/photoautre/porsche/carrera_gt/2003_porsche_carrera_gt_03_m.jpg




Originally posted by Skyline_Addict
when you have to lift your hand to shift as opposed to resting it, the feeling is alot different because the shifter now points at you at a different angel.

Yes, we all do it but resting your hand on the shifter is not proper driving technique anyway.

[Skyline_Addict]

Originally posted by 88CRX
wow.... i think your the first person to complain about the shifter in the ep3 :thumbsdow


personally i wouldnt drive a mazda 3 if you gave me one.

so IMO ep3 > 3 :D

lol, everyone seems to be blowing up the whole shifter debate.
it's just preference, is what it comes down too.
you can't really argue about that.
i didn't think the car was that bad, but i believe there is better value for money out there.
when it comes to shifting, it's what you're most comfortable with that makes it better, not what is "scientifically proven to be more effiecient", atleast when it comes to everyday, ordinary cars.

[7thgenvic]

Originally posted by Skyline_Addict


lol, everyone seems to be blowing up the whole shifter debate.
it's just preference, is what it comes down too.
you can't really argue about that.
i didn't think the car was that bad, but i believe there is better value for money out there.
when it comes to shifting, it's what you're most comfortable with that makes it better, not what is "scientifically proven to be more effiecient", atleast when it comes to everyday, ordinary cars.


i bet if ya slam it and put a short shifter in, people wouldn't complain, and the first time i drove a EP3 i thought it redlne too fast without actually pulling, ( i mean it feels a little sluggish)

[Skyline_Addict]

yes, it was quite a rev happy car, but then again, most hondas are anyway.

[gpomp]

how the hell do you stall a civic, they have the softest clutches in the world. :whipped:

[Kamen]

Originally posted by gpomp
how the hell do you stall a civic, they have the softest clutches in the world. :whipped:

:werd:

[topher91]

Originally posted by 88CRX
wow.... i think your the first person to complain about the shifter in the ep3 :thumbsdow


personally i wouldnt drive a mazda 3 if you gave me one.

so IMO ep3 > 3 :D


Diddo!

I loved my dash shifter!! Once you start driving with it and go back to shifting from your thigh, u'll find it's wayyyyy better.

[Kamen]

Originally posted by AsianCaucasian
So… Skyline_Addict and I got out of work a little early yesterday so we decided to take a little trip to T&T Honda. First off, the salesman wouldn’t even acknowledge us as we were looking at the cars but finally one saleswoman decided to come over and talk with us.

Actually, the Honda here in Victoria is BS as well. You walk in and everyone just ignores you. This has happened 2 times already, I don't know how the hell they function. They must think they are the Bentley of Dealerships around here or something because Mazda, BMW, Merc, Acura, basically everyone but Honda has good service here. :thumbsdow

[88CRX]

t&t has horrible horrible service :thumbsdow

i had much better service @ calgary honda :thumbsup:

[Skyline_Addict]

Originally posted by gpomp
how the hell do you stall a civic, they have the softest clutches in the world. :whipped:

he just wasn't used to it I guess. he drove my lude no problem, lol.


yeah T&T was horrible, I don't know why so many people get their Hondas there.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by Skyline_Addict
yeah T&T was horrible, I don't know why so many people get their Hondas there.

T&T isn't the greatest (sales are horrible but the best Honda service IMO) for sure but Crowfoot Honda is worst and Honda West is the worst and most unprofessional dealer I've ever dealt with. Since Calgary is a Honda town I can only come to the conclusion that Calgarians are okay with medeocre sales & service.

I don't think that the SiR is a bad car. The price is a little steep for the weak performance but really all Civics have had reletively weak performance over the years (possibly with the exception of the B16A SiR's) and this car is after all just a Civic!!!!! The interior is sparce but Civics have never been known for gimic-like interiors just the basic necesities & a no-nonsence interior. I don't mind the shifter but I can see how some people may not like it but kudos to Honda for trying something new. Looks are subjective but I don't mind it especially if it is matched with the right wheels. Handling is pretty descent and while not the best in class it's nothing a set of lowering springs & shocks could fix.

It comes down to preference. Do you fork over $24000 for a Civic that you know will be reliable and will keep a good resale value or do you opt for a Mazda 3 which is more stylish, handles better, has little more power but far behind the 2.4l engines in the Spec V or Lancer Ralliart offer. The downfall of the Mazda 3 is average/poor build quality and resale value. So it really comes down to what you expect out of your money.

[Skyline_Addict]

^^ well said!

[A2VR6]

Well like AC said, I test drove the EP3 last year when I was looking for a car. It was the last year they were making them and T&T had about 5 or 6 brand new ones on the lot that they wanted to get rid of. I must say, they had some pretty attractive finance rates/ incentives for the EP3 and thats why I decided to give the car a chance.

My first impressions was that the interior wasnt bad. In my opinion it would be better than a prelude interior (1997-2001) but not as good as say a Mazda 3 interior. But still decent. I like the seats alot, especially the suade like (alcentra?) covering. I would even take these over my RSX seats. The build quality of the car felt solid in my opinion much better than the american made civics.

Looking back on the test drive, I have to admit I was comparing the car to the likes of a RX-8 or a RSX-S which were both out of the class of the EP3 in the power and handling department. Hence I was a little hard on the car. Having recently driven a base civic (my friends) I must say the EP3 wasnt too bad. The K20 engine has a very linear powerband so you wont feel that much torque and because of that it appears that the car is underpowered. From what I remember the car holds it's own in the corners, not amazing but I think the small tires (P195 I believe) could contriute to that. Power definatly isnt that bad, fairly decent, gives the car a little pep in the higher RPM ranges. And the shifter just takes a little time to get used to but I dont think it's any better/worse than a floor mounted one. The tranny to me feels like any other typical honda tranny.

Considering the asking price of the 02' is only about 2500-4500 off the MSRP of a new one, a new SIR would not be a bad deal. Im not a huge fan of the styling but slap on some CTR rims and drop it a little and it's a fairly good looking car.

[88CRX]

Originally posted by A2VR6
slap on some CTR rims and drop it a little and it's a fairly good looking car.

:werd:

[likwid]

"that v-tech is like a turbo yo"

[gpomp]

test drive a real civic, say a certain 95 red coupe.

[Skyline_Addict]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by A2VR6
Well like AC said, I test drove the EP3 last year when I was looking for a car. It was the last year they were making them and T&T had about 5 or 6 brand new ones on the lot that they wanted to get rid of. I must say, they had some pretty attractive finance rates/ incentives for the EP3 and thats why I decided to give the car a chance.

My first impressions was that the interior wasnt bad. In my opinion it would be better than a prelude interior (1997-2001)


You can really compare two different generations of cars.

All civics, integras and preludes had similar, rather plain and simple interiors for the same year. The EP3 is a generation after that, when it seems Honda decided to focus much more on interior appeal (as seen in the new Integra, Civic SiR, etc.).

[jtsimaras]

Originally posted by richardchan2002
I test drove a brand new EP3 a coule years ago and I also found that they lack in the suspension and power departments. The Mazda 3 with the 2.3L pulls a lot harder, and handles WAY better. It seems to be better in every way (except maybe quality and reliability which still remains to be seen), which probably explains why they are such a success. When I test drove a Mazda 3, there were none in stock. I would've had to put a deposit down and wait for it to come in from Japan.

This is kind of wierd that you state this since The Stock SIR runs 0-60 in 7.2 to 7.5 versus 8.0 to 8.3 for the Mazda 3 GT and both cars have the same crappy skidpad of .84g.
Not sure how anyone claims that the Mazda 3 pulls harder or handles better than the SIR when the figures cleary state otherwise.

Just My $.02

[Aleks]

It's most likely the torque. It does weird things to people's senses and perceptions of acceleration. ;) hence the mazda might seem quicker when in fact in might not be.

[88CRX]

Originally posted by Aleks
It's most likely the torque. It does weird things to people's senses and perceptions of acceleration. ;) hence the mazda might seem quicker when in fact in might not be.

ep3 = torqueiest civic evar :thumbsup:


all the ep needs is a k20a2 swap :bigpimp:

[jtsimaras]

Originally posted by Aleks
It's most likely the torque. It does weird things to people's senses and perceptions of acceleration. ;) hence the mazda might seem quicker when in fact in might not be.

That's right---hence american cars suck all torque with no top end unless it is the Corvette---yummy!!!

[98brg2d]

My $0.02 on the Si-R:

I test drove it when it first came out and liked it alot. I think the shifter is on the dash to persuade you to keep both hands on the wheel since it is easier to shift from the wheel than it is from the center console or e-brake.

I liked everything about the car but the sunroof and the price. I am 6'2" and I had to lean the seat almost all the way back so I didn't hit my head (fairly common these days even with height adjustable seats).

Considering the car's competition at the time (Sentra Se-R, Neon R/T and Focus SVT) it should have been price closer to the Nissan and Dodge (around $21,000 -$23,000) not $25,000.

[88CRX]

Originally posted by 98brg2d
Considering the car's competition at the time (Sentra Se-R, Neon R/T and Focus SVT) it should have been price closer to the Nissan and Dodge (around $21,000 -$23,000) not $25,000.

ep3 sticker price was $23500

[Seanith]

I thought they were selling for ~$27k when they first came out?

[jtsimaras]

Originally posted by jtsimaras


This is kind of wierd that you state this since The Stock SIR runs 0-60 in 7.2 to 7.5 versus 8.0 to 8.3 for the Mazda 3 GT and both cars have the same crappy skidpad of .84g.
Not sure how anyone claims that the Mazda 3 pulls harder or handles better than the SIR when the figures cleary state otherwise.

Just My $.02

Oh ya did I forget to mention that the 2002-2003 SIR pulls the same skidpad rating as the Mazda 3 GT using crappy 15" wheels versus 17" that come on the 3 GT.
Slap some 17" on the SIR problem solved better handling than the 3 GT.

[A2VR6]

Originally posted by jtsimaras


Oh ya did I forget to mention that the 2002-2003 SIR pulls the same skidpad rating as the Mazda 3 GT using crappy 15" wheels versus 17" that come on the 3 GT.
Slap some 17" on the SIR problem solved better handling than the 3 GT.

I could be wrong but, doesnt the Civic use the same shitty tires stock as the RSX? Because thats one thing I always remembered the mags complaining about specifically on the RSX, the shitty tires and smaller wheels which gave lower skidpad numbers. If thats the case then I guess with different rubber as well the skidpad numbers would be better.

[CSMRX7]

Originally posted by 88CRX


ep3 sticker price was $23500

Sticker was $26,9k

Oh and on the torque front, also linear power delivery makes a car feel "slower" My guess would be the the SIR has smoother power delivery than the Mazda 3.

If you don't believe me about the power delivery come ride int he rx7 with your eye closed and then looking at the speedometer.

The smooth power before and after transition make the car feel like it is slowly getting up to speed.

[jtsimaras]

Originally posted by A2VR6


I could be wrong but, doesnt the Civic use the same shitty tires stock as the RSX? Because thats one thing I always remembered the mags complaining about specifically on the RSX, the shitty tires and smaller wheels which gave lower skidpad numbers. If thats the case then I guess with different rubber as well the skidpad numbers would be better.

Yep those crappy Michelins Stay puff marshmallow man tires.

I have a set of 17" with Kumhos on my EP3---wow total riding difference from the stock 15". The stock 15" are just so bad for the Ep3!! Not sure what honda was thinking on this one---guess they were trying to reduce cost by using the same crappy wheels/tires as those on the si coupe.
I had a base RSX before the EP3--same damn thing except they were actually steel 15" with hubs. And yes I swapped them out for 17" and again it made a big difference. Not sure what acura/honda was thinking again on the base RSX hub caps???WTF??. No car over 25 g should come without 16"or 17" alloy wheels. Besides this minor flaw both cars are pretty damn fun to drive. Besides it gave me the option and excuse to buy the style of rim/tire I wanted.
My .02$

[88CRX]

Originally posted by CSMRX7


Sticker was $26,9k.

opps lol