Reform or Revolution?

[JOEBIALEK]

I had the opportunity the other day to watch a most enlightening program broadcast by UCTV. The one-hour program was called "How Unequal Can America Get Before We Snap?" presented by President Clinton's former labor secretary Robert Reich.

"Inequality of income, wealth, and opportunity in America is wider now than it's been since the 1920s, and by some measures since the late 19th century. Yet the nation seems unable or unwilling to do much of anything to reverse these trends. What happens if we allow the trends to continue? Will they "naturally" reverse themselves? Or will we get to a point where disparities are so wide that we finally find the political will to take action? Alternatively, will the disparities themselves grow so wide as to discourage action, by fostering resignation among the losers and indifference among the winners? And if the latter, where will it all lead?" SOURCE: Goldman School of Public Policy UC, Berkley

The presentation made excellent use of economic graphs to demonstrate how large of a gap has developed between the upper class and the middle class (not to mention the lower class) with regards to income, wealth, and opportunity in the United States between the years 1962 to the present. The trends are alarming to say the least. The speaker correctly points to birthright as the beginning of the disparity that allows for advantages in everything from diet and healthcare to education and connections. Being born into a middle-class family myself, I have truly benefited from my birthright in terms of these advantages right from the starting gate. Some people would argue that many a poor person has risen up by their "own boot straps" but I would argue that in today's society, most (not all) poor people can only rise up with a good pair of athletic shoes or a willingness to sell drugs. Otherwise they have to remain content with working in the service industry for comparatively lower wages than their upper-class counterparts. Mr. Reich further points out that one of the elements keeping our society glued together is the belief or perception by the lower class that opportunity in this country still exists and that if one is willing to work hard, they can be successful.

The speaker talks of two potential outcomes for this growing disparity. He uses the metaphor of the rubber band to illustrate his point. Our society will either "snap back" with a series of reforms supported by all three classes and the government to regain a sense of fairness when it comes to income, wealth, and opportunity in the United States. This has occurred at least once before in the history of our country during a time referred to as the progressive movement. The other potential outcome is for our society to "snap break" whereby this country exists with two entirely different societies. The problem with the latter outcome is that it often leads to the arrival of a demagogue who plays upon the emotions of the middle and lower classes all for the hidden intention of personal gain. We have seen this all too often in history with the likes of Napoleon, Mussolini, Hitler, Lenin etcetera. Mr. Reich suggests somehow that the upper class are not a group with malicious intent but rather are nothing more than a naive self-indulgent class of people who don't know any better. Here I beg to differ. I believe the upper class is guilty of a careless disregard for their fellow countrymen. They have the arrogance to believe they are superior and deserving of extravagance regardless of how they attained it and regardless of how it affects the rest of society. Once again, history shows us what happened to those monarchs who behaved the same way. Do I think there will be a violent revolution in this country? I hope not. Do I prefer a new progressive movement over even a peaceful revolution? Absolutely. My fear however, is that we are already rapidly approaching the point of "critical mass" beyond which there is no turning back. The question today before the American people is what are YOU prepared to do?

[DEREK57]

Interesting read. I dont agree with the guy, first on his analysis of the rich, but mostly on how close 'critical mass' is. I have no doubt that a possible 'snap back' is coming if this trend continues, but this would mean changing many aspects that the majority see as all too 'American'. Also, looking back at history, it doesnt seem that disparity is the cause of revolution, but desperation. No matter how much harder it might be for a lower-class American (compared to an upper-class one), their life is still seemingly decent. If you work hard anywhere in America, you can put food on the talbe for you and your family, and that is what matters. Violence seems to be caused by those who are pushed to the edge, and have no other way out, this doesnt seem to be the case in America yet...not many people are willing to take up arms because they have a small black and white tv, while others have 5 big screens.

However an interesting read on this topic is also, "Revolt of the Masses" by Jose Ortega Y Gasset...found it in the bathroom of a used bookstore.

[BlueGoblin]

Joe - Please do not spam this board.

[DEREK57]

This is spam?

[Tyler883]

The boston tea parties were caused by a tax that was around 6% or so, right? I wonder if this was an act of desparation, desparity, or something else like a feeling of not being treated with proper consideration. If it is the later, I think we have a lot of people willing to revolt if something comes along that makes them feel angry, or something that violates a value that they feel pasionately about.

For example, if the gun registry was to start confiscating firearms from hunters - tommorow, instead of slowly over the next few decades...,

... the government may find that their entire bill C- x( cant remember the number, oh dear) would quickly become
completely un-enforceable when all hunters decide to whole heartedly resist all efforts of gun control.

Contempt for the gun control would kill these laws by making it very costly and impractical to enforce them.

[BlueGoblin]

He's posted the exact same post on several boards, and this is the only thing that he has ever posted here. I tend to think of doing that as spam, even if it is thought provoking.

[Xtrema]

COMMIES!!!!! :D

I do believe there is some truth to this. Just like Indonesia a few years back with the riot and rise of Hitler. But in both cases, it's focus on a particular race that isn't indigenous to the region control too much of the economy. This bred racism and ensuing revolt.

While I do agree the gap with widen both in U.S. and Canada (it is true that the rich and get richer quicker), there isn't any barrier for anyone else to do the same.

Heck, if you are smart, in today's market where a grill cheese can fetch $20K on Ebay, it doesn't take much for you to get out of the slump. You just need some good ideas. Oppertunities are all there. If you are not smart enough or determine enough to succeed, you'll be flipping burger forever. And that's just fine, it's life.

We have enough failsaves for people who fell thru the cracks. EI, charities and a lot of tax dollars are available for people who want to help themselves. But if we provide too many of these services, people will become lazy.

[Tyler883]

Alot of Canadians and Americans beleive that happiness is not just for high achievers.

If the middle class erodes enough, IMO there will be problems, its not 'if' but a matter of 'when' .

Heck, we can't even keep a government in power for more than 10 years without scandal.

Another thing to consider is the erosion of our rights and freedoms. We were alot free of a nation when I was a child, lots of tiny laws like seatbelts and helmets, etc...they were all written with good intentions but these good intentions slowly wittle away at our freedoms.

[2002civic]

:whocares: 99% of us are Canadian

[Xtrema]

Happiness comes in many form. But like Cheryl Crow's song, want what you have, not have what you want will ultimately be source of happiness. The latter can be a source of motivation but also a source of stress. It's how you handle it. But few can achieve it espeically if you have children. You'll always want the best for them and will kill if necessary.

Like it or not, materialism rules right now. You'll have to be really isolated from the society to not be affected by it.

Will middle class ever erode? No. Even in ultra competitive place like HK, middle class is crucial to businesses because majority of the employable workers are in this segment. Post secondary education will make sure we'll have middle class for years to come.

[DEREK57]

Originally posted by Tyler883
Alot of Canadians and Americans beleive that happiness is not just for high achievers.

If the middle class erodes enough, IMO there will be problems, its not 'if' but a matter of 'when' .

You're so sure? The extremes grow, true, but I dont see how this could happen, especially in Canada. Given that we have wealfare systems, and free k-12 education, its not like it is particularly hard for the average person to make it to the middle class. Plus the middle class is our means of production. It is no longer as productive to just have a load of stupid workers working labour jobs, skilled workers are needed by the upper-class, but given that these workers have skills/knowledge they are intrinsically more valuable, and can also demand much more from their employers.


Heck, we can't even keep a government in power for more than 10 years without scandal.

Huh?


Another thing to consider is the erosion of our rights and freedoms. We were alot free of a nation when I was a child, lots of tiny laws like seatbelts and helmets, etc...they were all written with good intentions but these good intentions slowly wittle away at our freedoms.

Huh x 2?

[DEREK57]

Originally posted by Tyler883
The boston tea parties were caused by a tax that was around 6% or so, right? I wonder if this was an act of desparation, desparity, or something else like a feeling of not being treated with proper consideration. If it is the later, I think we have a lot of people willing to revolt if something comes along that makes them feel angry, or something that violates a value that they feel pasionately about.

Thats a slightly different case. First of all that increase was the straw that broke the camels back, the problems included a long time of taxation without representation. Secondly this was, as far as I know, not a hugely violent act, in that the Americans doing it werent risking their lives. Third it is alot easier to take up arms against a foreign nation that has been mistreating you, than to take up arms against your neighbour.


For example, if the gun registry was to start confiscating firearms from hunters - tommorow, instead of slowly over the next few decades...,

... the government may find that their entire bill C- x( cant remember the number, oh dear) would quickly become
completely un-enforceable when all hunters decide to whole heartedly resist all efforts of gun control.

Contempt for the gun control would kill these laws by making it very costly and impractical to enforce them.

I agree, but this is more the snap-back method IMO. A demand for rights, or even ignoring not so important laws is a form of protest. Officials loosing respect in a nation is definetly an important and troublesome event, but a revolution does not just involve resisting the power of organized authority in a nation, it involves enforcing your own authority on civilians of that nation.

[TheBenzo]

Wow.. at first read I was thinking the author was nuancing communism.

Equality is not cool. Equality is against human nature and in my opinion should not be fucked with. Sound harsh? Great. Stop for a second and think about competitiveness in your day to day... expand a bit more and look at life..

Natural selection will have it that some people will do better than others... has been that way since the beginning of time. What are these people thinking? Of course the dispartiy will increase... population has increased!! Is this a bit twisted? or am I fucked?
If you have 100 million people and 40% are poor, then 40 million people are poor. Now with say 400 million people and the percentage pretty much being the same.. 160 million people are poor.. Im not really seeing the "growing problem" does one "group" need to stop reproducing so there is no likeness in numbers?

There are people who are willing to work hard and there are people who arent. In my opinion each person has the ability to go as far as they want to in life... one simply needs to apply work ethic and consistency. 50 cent did it, and some of his shit sucks some monster cock... so why cant joe-blow GHETT-O do it? I dont think anyone is forced to live a certain way regardless of whether or not they were born into it.. if someone wants something, they aere free to work to obtain it. I have to.. so should they.

If you have the fortune to have been born into a wealthy family.. good for you! your a lucky person!

Do you want to lower your quality of life so that peopel can feel equal? Does anyone? Why shouldnt the ghetto-folk RAISE their quality of life so that THEY can feel equal?

Why do the wealthier people have to be labelled as pigs and hoarders when they very well could have worked hard to get their money and to be where they are... why cant people who sit with their fat asses on the couch and do nothing be told what the fuck is up? I'm happy for the guy driving around in a Ferrari.. he is doing something I would love to do and hopefully WILL do on day.

[Xtrema]

^ Best reply EVAR!

[nhlfan]

what i get from this is they want to balance things out more, as far as wages and quality of life are concerned. Those who try are robbed of what they earned, and businesses forced to pay a higher wage to low skill employees will be uncompetitve because other countries do not have to pay the same wages.

the latter part is somewhat happening to GM right now.

[Celica TVS3]

Originally posted by TheBenzo

Do you want to lower your quality of life so that peopel can feel equal? Does anyone? Why shouldnt the ghetto-folk RAISE their quality of life so that THEY can feel equal?


Throughout history the wealthy have become that way by exploiting the labour of the working classes. The land barrons exploied the serfs, just as today the capital owners expoit the factory workers, and wealthier nations exploit the developing states. It has always been in the interest of the "haves" to get extract the most work for the least pay from the "have nots".

'wealth accumulated by the rich is wealth expolited from the working class' extreamly paraphrase of Marx.

It basicly boils down to if your riding the wave life is great, if your being pinned down by it life isn't as good.

-Aaron

EDIT: I'm mostly talking about the extreamly wealthy not the average well off individual.

[DEREK57]

Originally posted by TheBenzo
Wow.. at first read I was thinking the author was nuancing communism.

Equality is not cool. Equality is against human nature and in my opinion should not be fucked with. Sound harsh? Great. Stop for a second and think about competitiveness in your day to day... expand a bit more and look at life..

Natural selection will have it that some people will do better than others... has been that way since the beginning of time. What are these people thinking? Of course the dispartiy will increase... population has increased!! Is this a bit twisted? or am I fucked?
If you have 100 million people and 40% are poor, then 40 million people are poor. Now with say 400 million people and the percentage pretty much being the same.. 160 million people are poor.. Im not really seeing the "growing problem" does one "group" need to stop reproducing so there is no likeness in numbers?

There are people who are willing to work hard and there are people who arent. In my opinion each person has the ability to go as far as they want to in life... one simply needs to apply work ethic and consistency. 50 cent did it, and some of his shit sucks some monster cock... so why cant joe-blow GHETT-O do it? I dont think anyone is forced to live a certain way regardless of whether or not they were born into it.. if someone wants something, they aere free to work to obtain it. I have to.. so should they.

If you have the fortune to have been born into a wealthy family.. good for you! your a lucky person!

Do you want to lower your quality of life so that peopel can feel equal? Does anyone? Why shouldnt the ghetto-folk RAISE their quality of life so that THEY can feel equal?

Why do the wealthier people have to be labelled as pigs and hoarders when they very well could have worked hard to get their money and to be where they are... why cant people who sit with their fat asses on the couch and do nothing be told what the fuck is up? I'm happy for the guy driving around in a Ferrari.. he is doing something I would love to do and hopefully WILL do on day.

Blaming it on laziness has some legitamacy, but seems to me mostly to be an easy way out. Its alot easier to 'work hard' at school when you don't have to have two jobs, and live in a house with a crack-head mother or father, and maybe take care of siblings. Being a spoiled brat, I agree that the 'lucky' should not be punished for their luck, but they must also realize that that is part of how they got where they are, and that maybe at least opportunity can be somewhat equalized.

Also, if you are really going to advocate social darwinism, you really must accept some very disturbing thing.

[TheBenzo]

Well, just because its an easy way out, doesnt necessarily mean its not accurate.. Sure some circumstances will make it more challenging for the person... BUT it is still within someones capability to succeed... albeit they will work exponentially harder for them.. Ive walked that path myself; when I didnt work hard, I didnt have much, when I worked hard.. I had lots. I think people close their minds to opportunity too much.. which is a crying shame in that there are a lot of opportunities that will be missed as a result of negative pessimistic thinking.

Exploitation: absolutely. Someone has to do the dirty work or basic functions of our society will cease to exist. If no one will run the gas station, there wont be any gas.. etc. And yes, there are some mighty disturbing things about society that will never change... yet people if informed of these will refuse to accept them.

[ehos]

Money is our God. Don't fuck with God.

[TheBenzo]

LOL and to think that theory might ever change... ahh the happy place.

[JOEBIALEK]

good points...

[01RedDX]

.

[WhiteNikes]

In Calgary there are schools that have IB/AP prorams. These programs is for cats t' get a 'head-start' in post-secondary school. Now I could be wrong but I ain't remeber seein nun a them in the NE of calgary. In fact I remeber goin' int' Forest Lawn 'n' askin' myself what da hell is Cosmetology doin' in high school? I ain't remeber nuthin' like that at my high school. What now cats that's familiar with calgary know the closest thang we got t' tha ghetto be the NE of calgary. Now I could speak from personal experience that you ain't goin' t' a decent school unless you find yo' self there. 'n' you ain't got no $ for a bus pass? You could go t' the school we sent you to. If I ain't had the money for no bus pass I were outta luck. Yeah I could get a job cover my behind 'n' stuff, but then how I'mma gonna be able t' get grades like the rest a y'alls when I got's work after school?

I'm doin' pretty good for myself now, but ain't no one come up from a farmers family in the Islands 'n' act like they ain't got lucky.