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jdmakkord
10-10-2005, 11:42 AM
Way to spam a perfectly good thread:rolleyes:

Raz
10-10-2005, 12:38 PM
yea, wtf was that about?

habsfan
10-22-2005, 09:45 PM
*ahem* bump :D
is she ripping up the streets yet?

Primer_Drift
10-23-2005, 12:55 PM
Well she was... until the fuel pump gave out. For some reason the inline pump didn't have the nuts to push 40psi for long :dunno:
So I am saving up for an Aeromotive pump and a few more goodies like a full cage some nice defi hardware ( I have most of the gauges already though). I'll post an update on the project ASAP! Thanks for the bump Habsfan!

dj_honda
10-23-2005, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by Primer_Drift
Well she was... until the fuel pump gave out. For some reason the inline pump didn't have the nuts to push 40psi for long :dunno:
So I am saving up for an Aeromotive pump and a few more goodies like a full cage some nice defi hardware ( I have most of the gauges already though). I'll post an update on the project ASAP! Thanks for the bump Habsfan!

sweet i hope you get the link unit

i :love: the startup sequence

too bad a few of those guages would be worth more than my car lol.

finboy
10-31-2005, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Primer_Drift
Well she was... until the fuel pump gave out. For some reason the inline pump didn't have the nuts to push 40psi for long :dunno:
So I am saving up for an Aeromotive pump and a few more goodies like a full cage some nice defi hardware ( I have most of the gauges already though). I'll post an update on the project ASAP! Thanks for the bump Habsfan!

are there any parts on the car that aren't "high roller" parts? :rofl:

Primer_Drift
11-01-2005, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by finboy


are there any parts on the car that aren't "high roller" parts? :rofl:

Only the parts I've made myself :rofl:

Now the question you'll want to ask yourself is.. if last winter the car became RWD.. What will happen this winter?:D

legendboy
11-01-2005, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Primer_Drift
Now the question you'll want to ask yourself is.. if last winter the car became RWD.. What will happen this winter?:D

HoverSol!

BerserkerCatSplat
11-01-2005, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by legendboy


HoverSol!

Hmmm... a two-seater, mid-engined, RWD, hovering car.

Add in a Flux Capacitor, and you've got yourself a time machine! :burnout:

blizare
11-06-2005, 01:41 PM
This thread kicks ass imo.

Update ??

ex1z7
11-08-2005, 03:21 AM
:( :cry: :(

I downloaded the video, and it wont work. Dial up wont let me download something better =(

What was it? What happened? :(

Update us !! :burnout:


.. And very pretty sol =)

habsfan
11-11-2005, 06:04 PM
^the video was hardcore teaser. it was like 5 seconds long and it was just some dark garage and the sound of an engine starting

Bill Cosby
11-11-2005, 07:12 PM
sick sick sick, i loved all the updates on honda-tech.. cant wait to see this thing on the street.. good work man, looks like its going to pay off for you very soon!

streetarab
11-11-2005, 09:43 PM
dammit, i want an update so bad!!!!!:cry: :cry:

b_t
11-12-2005, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by habsfan
^the video was hardcore teaser. it was like 5 seconds long and it was just some dark garage and the sound of an engine starting

true. but that was a pimp datalogging setup he had there. was that something like Hondata or what? I want it :D

ex1z7
11-12-2005, 05:58 PM
Did the engine at least sound really sweet?

I feel all.. warm.. fuzzy.. and.. giddy inside thinking about this car out on the street..

We need updates !...


NOW!...


:burnout:

BerserkerCatSplat
11-12-2005, 06:09 PM
Best picture so far:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/gemini_july/gemini_July085.jpg

Primer_Drift
11-14-2005, 01:57 PM
^^
Haha agreed!


Originally posted by b_t


true. but that was a pimp datalogging setup he had there. was that something like Hondata or what? I want it :D

That was the AEM EMS fuel map/startup screen.. I'm in need of a new laptop now too now that I think of it. The 7 year old Dell with a shot battery isn't cutting it any more.



Originally posted by ex1z7
Did the engine at least sound really sweet?

I feel all.. warm.. fuzzy.. and.. giddy inside thinking about this car out on the street..

We need updates !...


NOW!...


:burnout:

The exhaust sounds smooth at idle.. pretty quiet considering there was no muffler. Wide open throttle at 5000rpm it absolutely screams.. not something suitable for the streets unfortunately.

I'm upgrading my master cylinder tonight with a little bit of honda OEM goodness.. from the stock civic 13/16" bore size to a full 1". I have to make an adapter plate, but it should bolt right on with any luck. This should effectively decrease pedal travel while increasing pedal firmness. I found the Type-R front calipers at the rear required much more pedal travel (due to increased caliper size) than was comfortable to break hard. The E-brake system on the other hand has two 7/8" master cylinders feeding the two rear brakes, I found it more than enough to lock the rear brakes with two or three clicks of the lever.

Primer_Drift
11-14-2005, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat
Best picture so far:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/gemini_july/gemini_July085.jpg

For anyone that is interested in some of the math behind twin engine setups and missed it on HT..
Its good reading for those who'd like to see the theory behind a twin engine setup with two different transmissions, or two different engines for that matter. The possibilities are endless.


[i]aemciv from Hondavision.com[i]
two engines would be ridiculous, they would have to be the exact same engine and trannies with the exact same gear ratios and shift at the exact same time. too much headache.


WARNING: THOSE WHO HATE MATH STOP READING NOW ;)

This is a very common misconception. The engine load in this case is really all that matters. In AWD vehicles they are limited to equal front and rear final drives (including tire diameter) because of the limitations of their transfer case. If the front and rear axles start moving at different speeds the transfer case goes boom. Twin engine vehicles do not have this problem. In a single engine car, your engine load is 100%, if you add an identical engine and tranny to the car the engine load is 50% (of the original load) to each. The most common misconceptions are that if the weaker motor is not producing the same power, the other engine has to push harder than the original 100% to move the other motor; or that the engine rpms must be equal with different gear ratios; this is false.

Its basic vectors:
weight = 3000lbs
Engine 1 = 200whp
Engine 2 = 100whp
Identical tires, ratios and final drive and therefore running at the same RPM.

200whp/(total whp)=0.67<-- percent of load
100whp/(300 whp)=0.33
3000lbs * 0.67= 2010lbs <-- engine # 1 initial load
3000lbs * 0.33= 990lbs < -- engine # 2 initial load
(It should be noted TRUE engine load is much more complicated than the mass of the vehicle, and is determined at velocity, etc etc but mass is used in this instance for reference)

As you can see, the second motor is actually lessening the load of the first by 33% in this instance.

Now assume the engines are of identical power and the ratios are what has changed this time. This will determine speed depending on engine rpm for the given ratios.
Trans 1 gear ratio= 4.00
Trans 2 gear ratio= 3.2 ( 80% of Trans 1)

Assumptions for both front and rear independant drivetrains:
Final drive= 4.226
Tire size= 205/40R17
Formulas:
mm-inch 25.4mm/inch x 205mm = 8.070866142inches
aspect ratio to determine sidewall width (40 x 8.070866142)/100 = 3.228346457inches
tire diameter + sidewall= (3.228346457 x 2) + 17 = 23.45669291inches
total radius of tire = 23.45669291 / 2 =11.72834646

Now thats all well and good but how to use it?
(engine rpm x Total radius x 0.002975 / Gear ratio * FD ratio)*2 = Vehicle speed!

Engine 1
(5000rpm x 11.72834646 x 0.002975 / (4 * 4.226))*2 = 20.64117 miles per hour
Engine 2
(5000rpm x 11.72834646 x 0.002975 / (3.2 * 4.226))*2 = 25.80146 mph

20.64117 / 25.80146 = 0.80 or the 80% originally reduced in gear ratio

So if engine 1 was travelling at 20.64117mph @ 5000rpm, engine 2 theoretically should be running at 80% of 5000rpm at the same vehicle speed.
5000rpm x 0.80 = 4000rpm

trying out the same formula we used above:
(4000 x 11.72834646 x 0.002975/(3.2 x 4.226))*2 = 20.64117 mph :D


So the conclusion is that regardless of gear ratio, FD and power output both engines will work together regardless. Their output is a function of vectors working in the same direction, not opposing, and they both create their own power to turn themselves. The load and rpm are all the motors will see. Final drive and gear ratio at specific rpm determine vehicle speed.

Cheers,
-Scott

habsfan
11-14-2005, 06:44 PM
^ dear god you are far too smart...:confused:

finboy
11-14-2005, 06:47 PM
scott that post made my head hurt, you owe me tylenol :thumbsdow

chris
11-14-2005, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by Primer_Drift

Their output is a function of vectors working in the same direction, not opposing, and they both create their own power to turn themselves. The load and rpm are all the motors will see. Final drive and gear ratio at specific rpm determine vehicle speed.

Cheers,
-Scott
somebody was paying attention in physics

Raz2
11-14-2005, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by finboy
scott that post made my head hurt, you owe me tylenol :thumbsdow

Is it just me, or is it in today's society - "cool" to be "dumb" ?

Twin engine setups pwnz joo. Put one transmission in 1st and the other in Reverse, pop the clutch simultaneously on both transmissions and floor it watch the cool smokeyness.

:burnout: :burnout:
:burnout: :burnout:

- Rasmus

doublepostwhore
11-14-2005, 07:11 PM
Does that mean that you WILL or WILL NOT be running similar gear ratio's?

If the end velo. is a function of RPM then would it not be adventageous to run a lower ratio so you could "stretch" the power band?

How is it that you can modulate two engines (diffrering RPM's) if you so choose to run different aspect ratio's? Two separate pedals? Then the question of redundancy and reliablility is in question...

I am no math proffessor however you calculations seem to be correct and logical, but I guess the bigger question is why? Why would you want to run 2 diffrent engines with different ratios if your goal is to create max HP with the most harmoic balance? If you have 2 engines running at different speeds in the power band then you are not making full use of either 1 of the two engines as redline would be reached on X engine while Y engine is still chugging through it power band.

If you were to dyno both engines before running tandam would you run one engine at 8K redline while building the other engine to handle 9.5K @ the same power?

doublepostwhore
11-14-2005, 07:15 PM
Rasmus.

Adam is a VERY intelligent person and it would be wise of you to keep comments like that to yourself as you actually hardly know him at all.

Just because he chose to post that comment, it is FAR from an indication of intelligence, this is most evident from your post. Your contribution was nothing but a teenage boy's fantacy. Most car owners who take on projects of this magnitude are over the stage of having to re-purchase tires just to watch "cool burn-outs".

Dont give someone a piece of your mind, if you cant afford to give it.

Raz2
11-14-2005, 07:23 PM
Nice one ;)

However, the remark was aimed at society - I see many posts with "ow my head hurts" or "d00d U R 2 smrt y0" on the internet and just felt the need to vent :) I have no doubt in my mind that finboy rivals Einstein in cranial capacity, but you completely misconceiving my remark and then insulting me makes me doubt yours.

I am not a teenager, not even close and my fantasies usually involve scantily clad women :rofl: - but I do like the odd "cool burn-out" Especially when it would be an interesting one with one car trying to split itself in half and two honda engines screaming for mercy whilst shouting at eachother :eek: :drool: :)

doublepostwhore
11-14-2005, 07:34 PM
My bad man. I aplogize clearly I made an error in judgement.

I have copious amounts of anger for people who enjoy wasting tires and gas on burn-outs except pre-run pulls on the 1/4 and ofcoruse drifting.


Truth be told I dont know Adam to well however he has had his share of crazy projects so I felt that a bit of respect was due.

Raz2
11-14-2005, 07:37 PM
:werd: it's all good :)

- Rasmus

P.s I always drive on recycler tires or used ~10-20 dollar tires, that way I can afford to scrub them a bit around corners :D

P.p.s for my "good" cars I tend to buy real tires though, my BMW and Audi both had really nice Yokahamas :D

BerserkerCatSplat
11-14-2005, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by Primer_Drift


Now thats all well and good but how to use it?
(engine rpm x Total radius x 0.002975 / Gear ratio * FD ratio)*2 = Vehicle speed!

Engine 1
(5000rpm x 11.72834646 x 0.002975 / (4 * 4.226))*2 = 20.64117 miles per hour
Engine 2
(5000rpm x 11.72834646 x 0.002975 / (3.2 * 4.226))*2 = 25.80146 mph

20.64117 / 25.80146 = 0.80 or the 80% originally reduced in gear ratio

So if engine 1 was travelling at 20.64117mph @ 5000rpm, engine 2 theoretically should be running at 80% of 5000rpm at the same vehicle speed.
5000rpm x 0.80 = 4000rpm

trying out the same formula we used above:
(4000 x 11.72834646 x 0.002975/(3.2 x 4.226))*2 = 20.64117 mph :D



While these are some well thought-out calculations, all you've done is prove that in what I will call Ideal Engine Theory, an engine at 5000RPM with a gear ratio of 4 will go the same speed as another engine at 4000RPM with a gear ratio of 80%, which is 3.2. Since tire sizes and final gear ratios remain constant in all equations, they can be removed.

So, in other words, you have proven that:

(4000/5000)=(3.2/4.0)

Your initial statement about forward vectors, however, is most important! Since all engines produce a positive moment (torque) to the wheels in a constant direction, they will indeed equalize each other throughout the rev range, with each engine helping each other through disparities in their respective torque curves.

What the most important calcualtion that would have to be made is that your shift points (RPM-wise) of each engine must be equalized. Therefore, each transmission gear would have to be individually adjusted, since you've only got one gear lever & clutch for both motors. (Two would be a pain in the ass. So would be two clutches pedals.)

Let's say your H22A redlines at 7200 (which it does, AFAIK.)

The front engine is a D16Z6, if it's the old engine out of that same car. (I don't really know Honda engines by sight.) It has a rev limit of 7200 rpm.

Which makes your job INSANELY EASY!

Since both your engines have the same redline (and therefore probably fairly close shiftpoints) you don't even need to adjust gear ratios! Since MPH is a function of RPM and gear ratios, both engines will produce the same forward velocity at the same RPM, and shift at the same point.

Jeez, and I thought I was going to have to calculate gear ratios!

Had the redlines/shift points been different, you would have to calculate the % difference for the gear ratios, as you wouldn't want one engine shifting well below/above its optimal shift point.

All I can see as a wrench in the works is VTEC. I don't know about those two engines, but if VTEC takes effect at two different RPM levels, you could get a "jerking" effect as VTEC kicks in and has to work to increase the RPM of the second unit that hasn't hit VTEC yet. :dunno:


All in all, the two engines you have would work excellently in conjunction with each other, as long as the transmission gear ratios are made equal, which I'm sure you're quite capable of doing. using engines with different RPM characteristics would require a set-% gear ratio edjustment, but it certainly can be done!

Good luck if you decide to throw in a second motor! :thumbsup:

finboy
11-14-2005, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat


While these are some well thought-out calculations, all you've done is prove that in what I will call Ideal Engine Theory, an engine at 5000RPM with a gear ratio of 4 will go the same speed as another engine at 4000RPM with a gear ratio of 80%, which is 3.2. Since tire sizes and final gear ratios remain constant in all equations, they can be removed.

So, in other words, you have proven that:

(4000/5000)=(3.2/4.0)

Your initial statement about forward vectors, however, is most important! Since all engines produce a positive moment (torque) to the wheels in a constant direction, they will indeed equalize each other throughout the rev range, with each engine helping each other through disparities in their respective torque curves.

What the most important calcualtion that would have to be made is that your shift points (RPM-wise) of each engine must be equalized. Therefore, each transmission gear would have to be individually adjusted, since you've only got one gear lever &amp; clutch for both motors. (Two would be a pain in the ass. So would be two clutches pedals.)

Let's say your H22A redlines at 7200 (which it does, AFAIK.)

The front engine is a D16Z6, if it's the old engine out of that same car. (I don't really know Honda engines by sight.) It has a rev limit of 7200 rpm.

Which makes your job INSANELY EASY!

Since both your engines have the same redline (and therefore probably fairly close shiftpoints) you don't even need to adjust gear ratios! Since MPH is a function of RPM and gear ratios, both engines will produce the same forward velocity at the same RPM, and shift at the same point.

Jeez, and I thought I was going to have to calculate gear ratios!

Had the redlines/shift points been different, you would have to calculate the % difference for the gear ratios, as you wouldn't want one engine shifting well below/above its optimal shift point.

All I can see as a wrench in the works is VTEC. I don't know about those two engines, but if VTEC takes effect at two different RPM levels, you could get a &quot;jerking&quot; effect as VTEC kicks in and has to work to increase the RPM of the second unit that hasn't hit VTEC yet. :dunno:


All in all, the two engines you have would work excellently in conjunction with each other, as long as the transmission gear ratios are made equal, which I'm sure you're quite capable of doing. using engines with different RPM characteristics would require a set-% gear ratio edjustment, but it certainly can be done!

Good luck if you decide to throw in a second motor! :thumbsup:

v-tec doesn't really cause a jerking motion, it more or less just sounds louder :D

i would be more concerned about spool up time from 2 turbo's and loss of traction in the front wheels or back at different times :burnout:

Raz2
11-14-2005, 08:47 PM
You mean, like this little baby? :)

http://redline.mobia.net/BoostBeast01.avi

- Rasmus

BerserkerCatSplat
11-14-2005, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by finboy


v-tec doesn't really cause a jerking motion, it more or less just sounds louder :D

i would be more concerned about spool up time from 2 turbo's and loss of traction in the front wheels or back at different times :burnout:

I'll take you word for that, I've never actually been in a car that's engaged VTEC. I assumed it would give a fairly substantial power boost that would be noticeable in a twin-engine setup.

Turbocharging would really throw a wrench into the calculations, that's for sure!

Primer_Drift
11-14-2005, 09:21 PM
Great input everyone! I'm impressed with the quality of responses on this topic!

The purpose of the explaination was to prove the concept of twin engine setups and variables that the setups offer

As to why you would use different motors or gear ratios..
Think in terms of sequential powerbands. If persay one engine has great initial torque but sluggish top end, the other engine could be the reverse, creating a more linear combined powerband.

As for gearing and motor choices..
If for instance your F22 redlined 20% (edit: typo there lol) lower than your H22 you would want to use gear ratios that allow for that difference. Using the same transmission with different motors would ultimately mean one motor would need to over-rev for the other to reach redline.

Power increases (such as vtec or boost) from one drivetrain mean less load on the other, so not necessarily a bad thing to have at different times. There wouldn't be any jerking (think vectors again), it would just start pulling harder as a whole. Traction, as stated, would be key :burnout:

Hybrid twin engine setups, (X motor with Y gearing, and W motor with Z gearing) require lots of math, tuning and luck to work well. However the potential is there for something greater than the sum of its parts.

Edit:
doublepostwhore-
I haven't decided quite yet what direction to go with the car, perhaps by January I'll have a good answer for you. The potential is there to go twin engine, but its not set in stone quite yet.

Primer_Drift
11-14-2005, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by Raz2
You mean, like this little baby? :)

http://redline.mobia.net/BoostBeast01.avi

- Rasmus

Thanks for the vid Rasmus, I had not seen that one!
I loved the sound of both engines starting :rofl:

Raz2
11-14-2005, 09:31 PM
I'm sure you've seen the tiburon too?

http://redline.mobia.net/Dual_Tiburon.mpeg

:D

- Rasmus

Primer_Drift
11-14-2005, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by Raz2
I'm sure you've seen the tiburon too?

http://redline.mobia.net/Dual_Tiburon.mpeg

:D

- Rasmus

Sure have! Last year around this time I was watching that video.. and look what happened!:rofl:

Raz2
11-14-2005, 09:38 PM
Hmmmm :D

Guess you shouldn't watch german scheisse porn movies? :rofl:

- Rasmus

Primer_Drift
11-14-2005, 09:42 PM
See now I am glad I don't know what that is and have no inclination to find out... wait why do you know what that is?

BerserkerCatSplat
11-14-2005, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by Primer_Drift


As to why you would use different motors or gear ratios..
Think in terms of sequential powerbands. If persay one engine has great initial torque but sluggish top end, the other engine could be the reverse, creating a more linear combined powerband.

As for gearing and motor choices..
If for instance your F22 redlined 20% (edit: typo there lol) lower than your H22 you would want to use gear ratios that allow for that difference. Using the same transmission with different motors would ultimately mean one motor would need to over-rev for the other to reach redline.

Power increases (such as vtec or boost) from one drivetrain mean less load on the other, so not necessarily a bad thing to have at different times. There wouldn't be any jerking (think vectors again), it would just start pulling harder as a whole. Traction, as stated, would be key :burnout:

Hybrid twin engine setups, (X motor with Y gearing, and W motor with Z gearing) require lots of math, tuning and luck to work well. However the potential is there for something greater than the sum of its parts.


Yeah, that was essentially what I was trying to say, that engines with different redlines would need gearing adjusments to get consistent performance. It's not too tough to calculate, since it'd be percentage-based, as long as the gear differences remained consistent througout the two transmissions. With a few simple gearing changes, the chances of over-revving could be reduced substantially.

The "jerking" I was taking about was more directed at VTEC, which is a more sudden change than the more progressive change produced by a turbocharger. I'm theorizing that a sudden boost in performance (and therefore velocity) could "shock" the other engine's reciprocating assembly, as it's suddenly forced to catch up with the other engine's RPM's. Then again, it's all theory, there's just too many working variables to create an absolutely accurate model of what would happen.

In short, there's only one way to find out: Somebody has to do it!

*nudge, nudge* :D


Edit: I'd also like to restate how much I'm impressed by your project! It's fantastic, keep us updated!

Raz2
11-14-2005, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by Primer_Drift
See now I am glad I don't know what that is and have no inclination to find out... wait why do you know what that is?

:rofl: Never seen South Park?

BerserkerCatSplat
11-14-2005, 09:57 PM
Moooom.... you'd tell me if you were in a german Scheisse movie, right?

:rofl: :rofl: Classic South Park.

habsfan
04-20-2006, 10:18 AM
ttt, how's the progress coming? anywhere near completion?

EDIT: i just checked out your HT thread...you crazy mofo lol

Primer_Drift
04-20-2006, 12:03 PM
wow you found it, I thought this thread was gone :clap:

I tried to go hover-sol as suggested, but I've decided to try my hand at twin engine first and work my way up to it. :nut:


Recently I finished the rough work on the dual clutch pedal assembly. Lack of space on the engine side of the firewall meant to mount the second clutch master cylinder, it had to be under the dash instead. The resevoir will be mounted in the engine bay for ease of access. A donor pedal assembly was chopped up, flipped upside down and welded to the original assembly.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/gemini_2006/g2006_Apr_1.jpg

Right now I am working on the temporary throttle pedal, and starting design work on a dual throttle system, so I can adjust throttle to the front engine to improve handling characteristics.
In a turn for instance, decreasing throttle to the front engine would increase the tendancy to oversteer rather than understeer - which would be the case with the temporary pedal if both engines were at the same power level.

I have a new TIG welder coming in (2 weeks!), at which point this project will be back in high gear again. I've had to wait on some aspects because welding it with mig would not give the finished appearance I am ultimately looking for.

Supa Dexta
04-21-2006, 09:14 PM
Anyone ever see the twin engine quattro in their travels? I seen it on tv, oh probably 5 yrs ago or so... I searched around online but no luck yet.. I believe it was around 800hp? I can't recall exactly.. crazy car though...

turbolaser
05-04-2006, 12:29 AM
WOW this is crazy i love your passoin for your car i cant wait to see pics and vids of this thing going

thinmyster
05-11-2006, 04:23 PM
scott i pm'ed you about my own little mid engine install :D

dub_686
05-23-2006, 10:53 PM
Interesting..."engineer?" haha anyway sick car i wish my EG was RWD... it would be a whole lot funner!! good luck with the project its cool seeing somone soo compationate

Sonic_A4
05-23-2006, 11:29 PM
you sir have an amazing amount of knowledge and courage do take this job on, i like how you have approached this instead and just rigging it toghter. What i learned from my father is do things the right way or dont do them at all, and i see thats whats ur doing.
anyways good luck with this build i would love to see this thing in person and give you a few beers for it.

keep up the good work dood
were all cheering for ya to get this done:thumbsup:

Primer_Drift
05-24-2006, 02:23 AM
Thanks guys! I appreciate the support tremendously.. now if only Air-liquide would stop messing around and get my damn TIG contractor kit I ordered a month and a half ago, I could get some work done :banghead:

Veris
05-25-2006, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Primer_Drift


For anyone that is interested in some of the math behind twin engine setups and missed it on HT..
Its good reading for those who'd like to see the theory behind a twin engine setup with two different transmissions, or two different engines for that matter. The possibilities are endless.



[b]WARNING: THOSE WHO HATE MATH STOP READING NOW ;)

This is a very common misconception. The engine load in this case is really all that matters. In AWD vehicles they are limited to equal front and rear final drives (including tire diameter) because of the limitations of their transfer case. If the front and rear axles start moving at different speeds the transfer case goes boom. Twin engine vehicles do not have this problem. In a single engine car, your engine load is 100%, if you add an identical engine and tranny to the car the engine load is 50% (of the original load) to each. The most common misconceptions are that if the weaker motor is not producing the same power, the other engine has to push harder than the original 100% to move the other motor; or that the engine rpms must be equal with different gear ratios; this is false.

Its basic vectors:
weight = 3000lbs
Engine 1 = 200whp
Engine 2 = 100whp
Identical tires, ratios and final drive and therefore running at the same RPM.

200whp/(total whp)=0.67&lt;-- percent of load
100whp/(300 whp)=0.33
3000lbs * 0.67= 2010lbs &lt;-- engine # 1 initial load
3000lbs * 0.33= 990lbs &lt; -- engine # 2 initial load
(It should be noted TRUE engine load is much more complicated than the mass of the vehicle, and is determined at velocity, etc etc but mass is used in this instance for reference)

As you can see, the second motor is actually lessening the load of the first by 33% in this instance.


Nice project!

I don't want to open up a can of worms here, but your calculation for load isn't accurate. The weight of the car effects acceleration, but not load on the engine. The load on the engine is determined primarily by rolling resistance and air resistance; lateral forces not vertical ones. As you mention above, it is all about vectors (force by direction). If the motor makes more power than the load (opposing force) it accelerates the object. Mass then determines the rate of acceleration the engineís force can make. Re: F=ma.

Mass does effect rolling resistance through normal friction equations; ff=u*(mg). The coefficient of friction for rolling resistance however is very small like .05 or so. Witch makes the ff equivalent to lifting 150lbs (on a 3000lb car). It is because of this I can push a 3000 lbs car while not being able to squat 3000lbs.

The weight does affect the normal force on the tires and hence the max power the engine can put down before tire slippage.

While I donít agree with your load math I am in full agreement with your conclusion about not having trouble with 2 engines. re: forces in the same direction. The engines will stay in sync wheel speed wise until a tire breaks loose.

Regardless of the physics, damn cool project! Nice to see a fellow SOL'er pushing the envelope. You have crazy fabracation skills; I'm envious.

Primer_Drift
05-26-2006, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by Veris


Nice project!


I don't want to open up a can of worms here, but your calculation for load isn't accurate..

Key phrase..

Originally posted by Primer_drift

(It should be noted TRUE engine load is much more complicated than the mass of the vehicle, and is determined at velocity, etc etc but mass is used in this instance for reference)


Thanks for your input Veris, and yes you absolutely are correct load is determined by resistance. I used the "load"~mass analogy to put it in far more simple terms. Since not all co-effecients for resistance are static (aerodynamics) it would have been just as inaccurate to try and describe the load as constant resistance to accelleration (many more variables would need to be accounted for also).. the post was complicated enough without trying to teach grade 11 physics. My point was simply that they decrease the total load per engine depending on their power output.

Again, I appreciate that you took the time to read that post and elaborate on my possilby over simplified explanation of load. ;)

Veris
05-26-2006, 08:58 AM
Glad you took the post the right way. :thumbsup:

Primer_Drift
05-26-2006, 06:07 PM
Yay for new toys!!

Miller Dynasty 200DX, contractor kit, Miller elite big window helmet

The long awaited TIG welder :D
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/gemini_2006/g2006_may8.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/gemini_2006/g2006_may6.jpg

Sooo many buttons :nut:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/gemini_2006/g2006_may7.jpg

turbolaser
05-26-2006, 11:04 PM
sweet toy wanna do my exhuast LOL got any more pics or vids perhaps????

habsfan
06-03-2006, 10:19 AM
woah nice helmet :bigpimp:

eta to completion??

Primer_Drift
06-03-2006, 01:05 PM
^^
22 days until fully functional ;)

Probably a year before it is "finished" to the level I intended.


Originally posted by turbolaser
sweet toy wanna do my exhuast LOL got any more pics or vids perhaps????

I'll probably take on other welding projects in July, but for now I have other things on the go. I'll post up some pics ASAP.

Turboboost
06-05-2006, 09:17 PM
That is gonna be one sick ride... wanna take me for a ride?
:clap:

finboy
06-27-2006, 05:15 PM
ghetto sol FTW :rofl:

Redlyne_mr2
06-27-2006, 06:05 PM
So you can do all this but a tbelt job on my car terrifies you :)

legendboy
06-27-2006, 09:38 PM
nice welding power source. thoes inverter machines are so nice to weld with (and so friggen small! :jelous: )

definitely same some $ on your electricity bill with that one :thumbsup:

BerserkerCatSplat
06-27-2006, 09:42 PM
Right on, you finally got it! That's a sick-looking setup for sure.

I'm sure you'll keep us updated, eh? :D

Slashin_
07-05-2006, 01:02 PM
i think i found my new god lol

the_new_santa1
07-09-2006, 11:32 PM
...YOU ARE MY HERO>>>oh and your car :hitit:

habsfan
09-24-2006, 08:56 PM
awesome job welding that collector :thumbsup:

Primer_Drift
09-25-2006, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by habsfan
awesome job welding that collector :thumbsup:

Thanks! Its the first one I have done of that style, so it still looks a little rough in my mind.

BerserkerCatSplat
07-03-2007, 07:15 PM
This project popped into my head today, he's been busy updating his Honda-Tech thread:

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1266033

Dooms_Bane
07-03-2007, 07:36 PM
out of curiosity.... not to sure what this is in the whole thread o.0

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/portfolio/pond_filter7.jpg

what is this... unless it's actually a pond filter for a little pool of water where your fish would be :D anyone know?

P.S. this project is INSANE, would love to drive down and see the completed car in action

Primer_Drift
07-03-2007, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by Dooms_Bane
out of curiosity.... not to sure what this is in the whole thread o.0

what is this... unless it's actually a pond filter for a little pool of water where your fish would be :D anyone know?

P.S. this project is INSANE, would love to drive down and see the completed car in action

LOL.. yeah it is a pond filter, for a 2400+ gallon pond with fish. I got it anodized in black. It works well so far.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/portfolio/pond_filter8.jpg

It's under construction still.. had a waterfall working but haven't got it up and running yet this year.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/portfolio/pond_filter9.jpg

Thanks for the compliments and the thread bump!
Cheers,
-Scott

Revhard
07-03-2007, 10:53 PM
Just found this. Props on the work.
And you said you wouldn't try tig welding lug nuts....;)
Always wanted to see a rwd del sol. Nice.:thumbsup:

ls/vtec-crx
07-04-2007, 05:12 PM
:eek: CRAZY :thumbsup:

Supa Dexta
07-13-2008, 04:05 PM
So whats on the go with this thing anyways? what did it ever amount to? twin engine? or rear engine? rwd?

I ask because I came across this thing again,

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-Trucks___THE-ONE-AND-ONLY-TWIN-ENGINE-EAGLE-TALON-TSI-AWD_W0QQitemZ250267588921QQddnZCarsQ20Q26Q20TrucksQQddiZ2282QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250267588921&_trksid=p3756.m14.l1308

and it reminded me of this thread..

n1zm0
07-13-2008, 05:06 PM
wow this thread was all the hype back then totally forgot about, ya.. updates??

Primer_Drift
07-13-2008, 05:15 PM
It is the same layout as the DSM in the link you posted, twin engine AWD.

All excuses aside I've just been too busy with other things and slightly disinterested.

However, it's still a work in progress, and I have too much time and money invested in the car to give up on it. This won't be the last you hear of this car, I can promise you that.

finboy
07-13-2008, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by Primer_Drift

slightly disinterested.


:eek: :(

i miss working on that thing, it was so close to being streetable

Primer_Drift
07-13-2008, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by finboy


:eek: :(

i miss working on that thing, it was so close to being streetable

haha I know eh? But when you add up every little thing I have to do on it amounts to a monumental task. Building this thing to how I want it to be is not easy or cheap.

finboy
07-13-2008, 06:18 PM
if you ever get motivated to work on it again, drop me a line, i want to see this thing tear up the streets :rofl:

KuruptEX
07-13-2008, 06:23 PM
:nut: :nut: craziest del sol ever

Mr_ET
07-13-2008, 07:48 PM
Scott if you ever need a hand let me know man. I know it`s a lot to do but take it one step at a time and eventually it will all be done.

Dj_Stylz
07-24-2008, 02:12 PM
WTF Scott this thing done yet? ;)

LadyLuck
07-24-2008, 02:27 PM
WWWOOOOWWWW!
i never knew this thread existed, nevermind the car.

Great work so far
Cant wait to see what the finished project is going to look like!

:thumbsup: :clap:

finboy
07-24-2008, 04:00 PM
looks like interest is drumming up again scott, update photo's or BAN :D

Dj_Stylz
07-24-2008, 04:04 PM
I saw it last week its just collecting dust haha :(

Primer_Drift
07-24-2008, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by finboy
looks like interest is drumming up again scott, update photo's or BAN :D

*sigh*.. maybe this weekend.


Originally posted by Dj_Stylz
I saw it last week its just collecting dust haha :(

That is not dust, it is a protective layer of UV blocker.

Driven Sideways
08-30-2008, 01:55 AM
Finish that project up damn it! Your Del Sol makes you a hero! I had interest in making an all wheel drive EG ya know >.<

Ukyo8
08-30-2008, 03:00 AM
Originally posted by Dj_Stylz
I saw it last week its just collecting dust haha :(

What a shame :(

Primer_Drift
02-11-2009, 11:27 AM
Wellll I am back at it again.

This thread is severely lacking in pictures now, so I'll throw some in for good measure, plus some new ones.

This is how the car looked end of June 2007..
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/gemini_2007/15-12-061615.jpg

I started tacking together the charge pipes.. pie cuts FTL
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/gemini_2007/g_2007_june08.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/gemini_2007/g_2007_june15.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/gemini_2007/g_2007_june11.jpg

Finished charge pipes
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/gemini_2007/g_2007_june23.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/gemini_2007/g_2007_june22.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/gemini_2007/g_2007_june21.jpg

And then nothing for 2008. :nut:
Yes, that is right, nothing for almost an entire year.

So now I'm back at it again.

New rear firewall
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/gemini%202008/gemini-2008-03.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/gemini%202008/gemini-2008-02.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/gemini_2009/gemini_2-09_1.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/gemini_2009/gemini_2-09_2.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/gemini_2009/gemini_2-09_3.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/gemini_2009/gemini_2-09_4.jpg

Engine bay as it stands right now.. ( I need another transmission, preferably an LSD one)
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/gemini_2009/gemini_2-09_5.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/WhiteSol/gemini_2009/gemini_2-09_6.jpg

I'll probably re-do my charge pipes with aluminum u-bends as opposed to the pie cuts, my alu welding wasnt great then. I'm also considering replacing my turbo manifold as well, I'm not entirely pleased with how it turned out.

Thanks for looking!

Redlyne_mr2
02-11-2009, 11:32 AM
I was wondering the other day how this was coming along. Keep at it!.

n1zm0
02-11-2009, 11:36 AM
nice, updates! i remember seeing this a year after i joined beyond and thought 'stfu, in his garage?!', but of course nowadays everyone does garage projects but this was/is way more intense.

i like how close the turbocharger is to the seats, like real life sound-surround lol

Mr_ET
02-11-2009, 11:44 AM
Glad to see she is still alive!

How is the Beat?

SinisterProbeGt
02-11-2009, 12:17 PM
Great build man!
Very impressed with your time invested
Now finish it will you:poosie:

01RedDX
02-11-2009, 12:22 PM
.

ForeverBoosted
02-11-2009, 12:24 PM
Cool build man, looks like alot of hard work went into it.
Keep it up!
Sorry if I missed some information but what kind of RWHP are you looking at putting down?

GQBalla
02-11-2009, 12:56 PM
lookin good!


what color are you goin to paint it?

legendboy
02-11-2009, 03:27 PM
haha so are you completely sick of this project yet or still somewhat into it?

i think i would not be able to stand the sight of the car if i were you :D

BerserkerCatSplat
02-11-2009, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by 01RedDX
I was wondering about this project recently and thought you gave it up. Will be nice to see when it's all done.

Same here, I was showing this project to a friend last week and thought maybe you'd thrown in the towel. Glad to hear you haven't. :D

Primer_Drift
02-11-2009, 07:22 PM
Thanks for the comments and interest guys, it helps me keep interest in it as well haha..


Originally posted by Mr_ET
Glad to see she is still alive!

How is the Beat?

The Beat is good, I'm a couple pieces away from having it in running form.


Originally posted by ForeverBoosted
Cool build man, looks like alot of hard work went into it.
Keep it up!
Sorry if I missed some information but what kind of RWHP are you looking at putting down?

Engine is built for 800hp, the upper limit of the turbo is 600hp, so I'll probably aim for 300-400whp+ to keep it conservative until I get the bugs worked out of the suspension and chassis.


Originally posted by GQBalla
lookin good!
what color are you goin to paint it?

"Championship White" most likely. I'll be POR15'n the entire interior and taking the exterior down to bare metal.. the car has a lot of bodywork ahead. :P


Originally posted by legendboy
haha so are you completely sick of this project yet or still somewhat into it?

i think i would not be able to stand the sight of the car if i were you :D

Oh there's been days.. but then I see another Del Sol driving around and I think to myself "Damn that thing is tiny.. I have one of those with two engines in it, that is fucking retarded! I should probably finish it someday.."

EK 2.0
02-11-2009, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Primer_Drift

&quot;Championship White&quot; most likely.


White is right...:D

crez
02-15-2009, 08:19 PM
I know a few people that would love to help you paint that "thing." You should consider it.

topher91
02-15-2009, 08:50 PM
Were. Champ white is sick. My fav honda color!

Primer_Drift
02-15-2009, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by crez
I know a few people that would love to help you paint that &quot;thing.&quot; You should consider it.

Reeeally? If it is anyone half-decent at autobody I may have to take you/them up on that offer.