Rear sway bar..will that kill my understeer?

[Redlyne_mr2]

Im assuming it will just need the motivation to put it on. I was driving down some fun roads today and under heavy cornering the car understeers more than it should. If I throw a rear sway bar on will it go away?

[nismodrifter]

should definately help in killing it, I personally don't have one on my car but from what I hear the difference is night and day

[AllGoNoShow]

What is it? RWD or FWD?

i think with FWD it does help but RWD it will just make you have a much better chance of over steering.

[Redlyne_mr2]

sorry rwd

[CryoCarnage]

He has a mini slope car so ya he definately needs it. The MR2s understeer like motherfuckers so ys get one in htrere and it will slip and slide out.

[Weapon_R]

You will lose some understeer with a good sway bar.

[Redlyne_mr2]

Originally posted by CryoCarnage
He has a mini slope car so ya he definately needs it. The MR2s understeer like motherfuckers so ys get one in htrere and it will slip and slide out.
Sorry guys its for my 944..ive got some thick ass bars on the mr2 already. I figured it would help, time to get some droplinks and install it.

[GTS Jeff]

Ryan, unless this is a common and well documented issue with the 944s, I think it probably has more to do with your driving than the car itself. Maybe you're just simply going into the corners too hot?

[CryoCarnage]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
Ryan, unless this is a common and well documented issue with the 944s, I think it probably has more to do with your driving than the car itself. Maybe you're just simply going into the corners too hot?

Or maybe he isnt using a proper technique to get rid of the understeer. I remember when i used to fool around with my dads 944, i waited to near the end of a turn and full brakes it then i guess slid it partly through then full throttle. And yeah the sway bars for the 944 will definately help. I crashed the 944 one time causei couldnt get throught a turn fast enough.... :rolleyes:

[schurchill39]

It couldn't hurt right? They wont do anything to screw your car up so might as well go for it IMO

[EK 2.0]

Originally posted by schurchill39
It couldn't hurt right? They wont do anything to screw your car up so might as well go for it IMO

Actually going too large, with not enough suspension support from other areas COULD hurt. What people have to remember is that adding a part here or a piece there can hinder what your goals might be for suspension.

Unfortunatley Ryan, I dont know the 944 Chassis well enough to make an educated post on whether adding it will help or hurt. But having said that a Sway Bar addition to the rear of any ride will help promote more neutral handling, and dare I say...a lil more oversteer of a tendency.

[milesmcewing]

A 944 is probably one of the most neutral -driving cars out there, if you are having understeer issues, not to be a prick, but the best solution would be a driving school.

Porsche does dial in some understeer into all of their cars (as does every manufacturer). Even in our race cars we use understeer to help keep the car stable and build driver confidence.

If you really want a swaybar, I would be happy to sell you one from our collection.

cheers

Miles

[Redlyne_mr2]

Originally posted by milesmcewing
A 944 is probably one of the most neutral -driving cars out there, if you are having understeer issues, not to be a prick, but the best solution would be a driving school.

Porsche does dial in some understeer into all of their cars (as does every manufacturer). Even in our race cars we use understeer to help keep the car stable and build driver confidence.

If you really want a swaybar, I would be happy to sell you one from our collection.

cheers

Miles
Thanks Miles, this is the first time I've driven the car hard since I've owned it. The clutch and other components were all shot so I just cruised around in it up until now. Maybe im just not used to driving it but in the corners I was taking, in other cars, they do tend to oversteer. The understeer is very mild but still enough to be annoying but you are right. I'm thinking about that corner right now, I think Im braking too late causing the nose to dive then initiating the turn and thats why Ive got that understeer. I actually have a rear sway read to install but I will need the endlinks and bushings if you will part with those. Ill send you a PM.
Ryan

[rage2]

No it wont. The understeer during heavy cornering is due to camber changes from body roll up front. At the limit on street tires, you're actually getting positive camber, and the tire's running on the outside edge and even the sidewall.

The only way to fix that is to go lighter weight (both wheels and body), or stiffer front springs. With my heavy 18" wheels, I had to use 450lb springs to reduce the effect. At the track on slicks, guys use 600lb+ springs to fix the problem.

With 16" wheels, you should be able to get away with using aftermarket 944 turbo springs up front to cure the effect unless you're using some really sticky rubber.

Look at the difference in camber under heavy load front vs rear.

http://www.virgeweb.com/rage2/944t/2002-10%20Burnt%20Valve%2018.JPG

[Redlyne_mr2]

Dude I bought your old H&R's remember lol. I installed a turbo front sway as well. Running on the outside edge is exactly what is happeneing. My wheels are the oem Phonedials so theyre pretty light. What about a better tire, Im still on some shitty Pirelli P600s that came on the car when I bought it. Man that pic is crazy is that negative camber I see on the rear?

[b_t]

new tires would help.. tires improve so quickly anything older then three or four years is very far behind the curve. personally, I really liked my old Champiros.. 225/50R16 and they had a lot of traction, good wet weather performance, they transitioned between grip and sliding quite gently (and made a reasonable amount of noise doing so) but were noisy on the highway. my new yokohamas seem to a lot better in the dry, a lot worse in the wet, and quieter on the highway.. can't really talk about the transition between grip and sliding though, haven't pushed my car that hard yet.
I would recommend you step up to a larger diameter rim, 16" is good but 17" is the best compromise between looks and performance (imo). a lower profile tire has a stiffer sidewall and could help maintain traction with the camber problems in cornering. I saw could because I don't know enough about Porsches or tires to say for sure, rage might be able to help you better.

[rice_eater]

wow, a lot of missinformation here. sway bars are so simple i really was hoping i wouldnt have to type...

front bars increase understeer, rear bars increase oversteer. you're not reducing understeer in the front, you are making the whole car oversteer more which cancels out the understeer. sway bars are always good since they will stop body roll through the corners. as simple as that :)

[rage2]

Originally posted by Redlyne_mr2
Dude I bought your old H&R's remember lol. I installed a turbo front sway as well. Running on the outside edge is exactly what is happeneing. My wheels are the oem Phonedials so theyre pretty light. What about a better tire, Im still on some shitty Pirelli P600s that came on the car when I bought it. Man that pic is crazy is that negative camber I see on the rear?
The better the tire, the more grip there is. And with more grip, you'll get more body roll, so it'll get WORSE. Very strange that you're having the problem, because I never had the problem with 944 turbo front sway and those H&R springs. Of course, I never drove as hard back then, and I think I might've been running on all seasons lol.

To fix body roll, either go even stiffer springs (I dont think that's necessary in your case), thicker sway bars (possibility), or dial in more negative front camber (-1.5 to -2). This will ultimately fix the problem. Question is how much can your back take? ;).

And yes that's mad negative camber. My fronts were set to the same. Crazy how much it changes with body lean huh?


Originally posted by rice_eater
wow, a lot of missinformation here. sway bars are so simple i really was hoping i wouldnt have to type...

front bars increase understeer, rear bars increase oversteer. you're not reducing understeer in the front, you are making the whole car oversteer more which cancels out the understeer. sway bars are always good since they will stop body roll through the corners. as simple as that :)
Rear sway bars will just make the rears slide out earlier in this case. The root of the problem is the Mcphearson fronts, it introduces positive camber with body roll. So to minimize understeer, instead of reducing rear grip, we're increasing front grip to make the car grip better. Here's a good explaination of what's happening with the 944 when I asked on another forum why my AMG had just as much grip as the 944 but was way more comfy:

Unfortunately, due to the ancient MacPherson front struts we have on our 951s, body-lean will introduce a lot of positive camber-change. If we had double-wishbone front suspension (like ALL Ferraris), then we'd have a camber-curve that would stay negative no matter how much the body rolls. To get comparable camber at full body-roll as the Benz, you'll need something like -4 degrees static camber. While you can compensate somewhat for body-roll by dialing in more negative static-camber, this exacerbates the camber problem on the inside tire (which is now severely dragging its inside edge).

[CSMRX7]

This is one of the huge problems of most MacPherson type systems. Under heavy loading too much compresion of the loaded wheel leads to positive camber.

A sway bar will not help with the loading problem as much as it will affect the speed at which it happens (faster turn in).

Your best bet would be to increase the spring rates like rage sugested (I would recomend linear spring rates if you are really serious).

Another question is what were your tire pressures? If you are running onto the side wall of the front tire this can also cause you to loose grip.

[milesmcewing]

As simple as that?



I would be happy to take you out in any car with no front bar and twin rear bars and still make it understeer.

The main causes are still driver input, Rage2's skills have also changed dramatically over the years and the handling perception is changing too, I agree with Rage2



Misinformation?

Body roll is also respective of many other factors besides sway bars, a sway bar is controlling the relationship between the two wheels to increase weight transfer. not specifically the body roll

Like Rages comment on the comfort of the AMG, sometimes body roll is your friend, it helps build compliance and allow the system to suck up irregularity in the road as well, many times a stiff car will slide off the track by chattering through a bump, a softer car will absorb this and corner much quicker, even if it looks wrong.


In my Formula car we move the bars all day to adjust for many different conditions, fuel load, tire temps, habits, bump control, stability under braking, stability under power, dialing in/out turn-in or track out situations.

In my road race car, we don't even have the front bar hooked up.

I still stand by my original comment, a driver school is still the best performance dollar spent on any car.

Ask Rage about the time Tim Bendle took him for a ride in his own car, correct me if I a wrong Rage.

"Tim stepped the car out at the first cone and said there is the edge, after that every cone was completely at the limit"

One run, cold in a car he had never driven and had not competed in years was still good enough for the fastest time of day.

I know this is a bit off topic, but skill is skill, parts are parts.

cheers all

[rage2]

Originally posted by milesmcewing
Ask Rage about the time Tim Bendle took him for a ride in his own car, correct me if I a wrong Rage.

"Tim stepped the car out at the first cone and said there is the edge, after that every cone was completely at the limit"

One run, cold in a car he had never driven and had not competed in years was still good enough for the fastest time of day.
haha close.

Tim did set the fastest time, but it was me that hit the first cone at the start before the start line (stupid mistake). I got penalized for it and was only 0.2s behind his time after penalty, and would've been 0.8s faster if it wasn't for that penalty, so Tim ended up with FTD.

Nonetheless, it was pretty damn impressive that he was so fast in a car he's never driven before!

Miles is right though. Driving skill first, suspension mods next. You'd be surprised at how fast a stock suspension car can go.

[Redlyne_mr2]

Yeah Im still learning to drive this car. I'm going to try to make it to every solo2 this summer from now on and hopefully a track day or 2.

[JustinL]

Sorry to bump, but I just found it.

Ryan, I run my 87 set up like this:

Front:
250lb welt lowering springs
Paragon koni yellow kit set full stiff
-3° camber with paragon camber plates
NO front sway bar
The net lowering in front is about 1/2 inch

Rear:
Stock shocks
Stock Torsion bars
Rear turbo S M030 sway bar from the '88.
Stock ride height.

Tires are Fuzion Zri 245/45/16 at each corner

I have found that my 944 was understeering with the above setup and 225 front tires and 255 rears. Since swapping the 245s on it's now quite balance... maybe a tiny bit of oversteer. The biggest drawback I've found is the inside rear will spin if I'm coming too tight out of a corner in second.

If I were you, I would go for 250# welt springs and fresh shocks for the front and get that rear sway bar on there too.

[rage2]

His front springs are 275lbs if I remember right.

I run 500lb springs up front with a 28mm bar in the rear heh. Understeers a lot less now with 235's up front and 285's out back.