Double Clutching

[Ferio_vti]

I know how to do it, but I'm wondering is there a technical reason to disengage the clutch before hitting the gas and then re-engaging into a lower gear??
Its easier to just hold the clutch down and hit the gas, but what's the reasoning behind letting the clutch out first??

[yakish]

Describe your double clutching in details...

[bigboom]

from what ive been hearing double clutching in new cars is bad because it messes up the synchros...

[yakish]

Originally posted by bigboom
from what ive been hearing double clutching in new cars is bad because it messes up the synchros...
Really? but how?

[buh_buh]

there's no point in double clutching in newer cars because we have synchros.

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by bigboom
from what ive been hearing double clutching in new cars is bad because it messes up the synchros...

quite the opposite


Originally posted by buh_buh
there's no point in double clutching in newer cars because we have synchros.

my car has syncros too...but on cold mornings before theyve had a chance to warm up, ill grind my gear shifts if i dont double clutch.


double clutching basically engages the layshaft thing in the tranny so that u can get that spinning at the same speed as the engine....which is what the syncros normally do, but if u dbl clutch, ure saving wear and tear on the syncros...espcially if u are downshifting into super high rpms.

[bigboom]

ok that makes sense...so basically it just prevents burning out the syncros? is that not the same thing as rev matching then?

[T5_X]

Double clutch downshifts will keep you in the powerband, so you'll be able to accelerate out of turns quicker than just regular downshifting.

If you keep your foot in on the clutch and rev you're just spinning up the flywheel. In neutral with the clutch engaged and foot on the gas, it will rev up the whole tranny to the layshaft, which means you'll be higher up in the powerband once you go into gear.

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by bigboom
ok that makes sense...so basically it just prevents burning out the syncros? is that not the same thing as rev matching then? rev matching doesnt spin up the layshaft since the clutch isnt out in neutral

[Ferio_vti]

Originally posted by Ranger_X31
Double clutch downshifts will keep you in the powerband, so you'll be able to accelerate out of turns quicker than just regular downshifting.

If you keep your foot in on the clutch and rev you're just spinning up the flywheel. In neutral with the clutch engaged and foot on the gas, it will rev up the whole tranny to the layshaft, which means you'll be higher up in the powerband once you go into gear.

Okay, I understand the whole deal about keeping your engine in the right powerband, but what about foot on or off the clutch while you hit the gas?? Any reason to release the clutch in neutral?? Only thing I can think of is preventing the clutch from burning out.

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by Ferio_vti


Okay, I understand the whole deal about keeping your engine in the right powerband, but what about foot on or off the clutch while you hit the gas?? Any reason to release the clutch in neutral?? Only thing I can think of is preventing the clutch from burning out. to rev up the layshaft and sync it with the engine speed.

[Ferio_vti]

Layshaft?? What's that??

[bigboom]

yeah what is the layshaft? and why does that need to match the engine speed?

[GTS Jeff]

i just call it the layshaft...i have no idea what the proper name for it is....but its basically a part of the tranny that connects the gears to the wheels. errr someone else should explain this :)

[szw]

If you are not interested in how it works, but want to do it right, you have to have the clutch OUT (not pressed down)....if you are revving the engine up while the clutch is still pressed in, you aren't doing anything.

If you reallly want to know WHY, go read up on transmissions on howthingswork.com, its a rather lengthy explaination to understand everything.

[GTS Jeff]

oh yea, it should be noted that double clutching applies to upshifts and downshifts as well. i use it to upshift when the car is still cold so it doesnt grind, but i almost never double clutch downshift cuz its sooooo slow

[Fuji]

Originally posted by Ferio_vti
I know how to do it, but I'm wondering is there a technical reason to disengage the clutch before hitting the gas and then re-engaging into a lower gear??
Its easier to just hold the clutch down and hit the gas, but what's the reasoning behind letting the clutch out first??


You will FUK your syncros up doing what you are doing now.:eek:

[FiveFreshFish]

Here's a detailed description (http://www.happytogether.com/318ti/notebook/shifting/index.html) on double-clutching, rev matching, etc.

It's a good read, worth a few minutes of your time.

[THREE40SEVEN]

Double clutching is only necessary on trannys WITHOUT synchos. Its does nothing on transmissions with synchos except waste time.

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN
Double clutching is only necessary on trannys WITHOUT synchos. Its does nothing on transmissions with synchos except waste time. not true. see how long it takes for your syncros to get u into first gear from 5th while going 40....

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by Fuji



You will FUK your syncros up doing what you are doing now.:eek: clutchless shifting?

[three.eighteen.]

bah...double clutching...see sig

[T5_X]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN
Double clutching is only necessary on trannys WITHOUT synchos. Its does nothing on transmissions with synchos except waste time.

I always double clutch downshift.
For example, as I'm coasting to a red light in neutral and the light turns green, I'll blip the trottle while still in neutral, then disengage the clutch, shift into the appropriate gear, and so on. This reduces synchro wear, and lets me go into a higher gear without my engine knocking.
I'll do the same thing when going down a couple gears for a turn.

But then, I have a truck tranny, I benefit more from these cause the spacing of my gears is huge and I have a long throw between them.


And yes, if you shift without a clutch at all you will wear out your synchros very fast.

[THREE40SEVEN]

Explain to me why your "double clutching" benefits the life of the syncros in technical terms. Id love to know.
You HAVE TO double clutch an 18 wheeler because she is syncholess. That means: press clutch in and move to neutral, let clutch out, press in and then switch to the next gear. How would that benefit performance? Why would you do this if its not necessary??

[THREE40SEVEN]

Powershifting is used quite often in drag racing. With powershifting, you keep the gas pedal to the floor between shifts. Sorry, im grabbing for terms here as the term double clutch doesent belong in racing.
Shifting without a clutch is possible, but you must match mainshaft speed with the countershaft in order to shift, otherwise she will grind.

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN
Explain to me why your "double clutching" benefits the life of the syncros in technical terms. Id love to know.
You HAVE TO double clutch an 18 wheeler because she is syncholess. That means: press clutch in and move to neutral, let clutch out, press in and then switch to the next gear. How would that benefit performance? Why would you do this if its not necessary?? sigh...ok...syncros are present to match tranny rotational velocity to engine rotational velocity....however, these things are subject to wear and tear. if u want to prevent wear and tear on the syncros or if your syncros are old and dont always work perfectly, u might want to/need to manually syncronize the tranny and engine rotations, aka double clutching. double clutching doesnt usually benefit performance, but it is easier on the car.

some instances where double clutching comes in handy:

1. your syncros are worn out and they dont work well before theyre warmed up.
2. u want to downshift into first gear from 5th, basically pushing the engine rpms from say 2000rpm to 8000rpm. the syncromesh will take about 3-4 seconds to push the tranny from 2000rpm to 8000rpm in order for 1st gear to engage. now if u can dbl clutch faster than 4 seconds....uve already saved yourself time on the downshift!



any questions?

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by Jeff TYPE R
sigh...ok...syncros are present to match tranny rotational velocity to engine rotational velocity....however, these things are subject to wear and tear. if u want to prevent wear and tear on the syncros or if your syncros are old and dont always work perfectly, u might want to/need to manually syncronize the tranny and engine rotations, aka double clutching. double clutching doesnt usually benefit performance, but it is easier on the car.

some instances where double clutching comes in handy:

1. your syncros are worn out and they dont work well before theyre warmed up.
2. u want to downshift into first gear from 5th, basically pushing the engine rpms from say 2000rpm to 8000rpm. the syncromesh will take about 3-4 seconds to push the tranny from 2000rpm to 8000rpm in order for 1st gear to engage. now if u can dbl clutch faster than 4 seconds....uve already saved yourself time on the downshift!



any questions?
Sigh... OK(lol), Why would you ever want to downshift from 5th to first?? Use 2nd,3rd, or fourth to downshift and slow the car, or get in the rpm range you want to be in. Dont tell me that you want to get your tranny into 1st going 100kmhr.
Modern transmissions are built to be shifted without double clutching!!!
If your tranny is fuct, SURE, double clutch, otherwise....
Abuse wrecks trannys, not rowing through the gears.

[FiveFreshFish]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN

Sigh... OK(lol), Why would you ever want to downshift from 5th to first?? Use 2nd,3rd, or fourth to downshift and slow the car, or get in the rpm range you want to be in. Dont tell me that you want to get your tranny into 1st going 100kmhr.
Modern transmissions are built to be shifted without double clutching!!!
If your tranny is fuct, SURE, double clutch, otherwise....
Abuse wrecks trannys, not rowing through the gears.

Rowing through the gears doesn't wreck a tranny but double-clutching simply prolongs the life of the synchros. The tranny works either way, but you're easing the burden on the synchros, that's all.

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN

Sigh... OK(lol), Why would you ever want to downshift from 5th to first?? Use 2nd,3rd, or fourth to downshift and slow the car, or get in the rpm range you want to be in. Dont tell me that you want to get your tranny into 1st going 100kmhr.
Modern transmissions are built to be shifted without double clutching!!!
If your tranny is fuct, SURE, double clutch, otherwise....
Abuse wrecks trannys, not rowing through the gears. well there are times when i want to get from 5th to 1st....like when im cruising along in 5th at like 40 following a slow car, then i want to punch it to pass the dude....

and yes modern trannies are built to be shifted without double clutching, but they arent bulletproof!!! u are still wearing down the syncros a little bit at every shift. and some people like to go easy on their car however they can.

anything else?

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by Jeff TYPE R
not true. see how long it takes for your syncros to get u into first gear from 5th while going 40....
Why would you/i be in 5th going 40? Whats that- 500rpm in my car?
If you dont know how to drive a standard, sure it will take a bit longer to engauge(what- 2 seconds??!!), but IT DOESENT WRECK ANYTHING!!!!
And Id grab second anyways. Why would i want to put my car in first to get that last 500rpm, while second would offer more torque with a hair less HP?

Show me an owners manual that tells you to double clutch to save the synchos.
ITS A RICER TERM!!!
And dont say "not true". Prove your point with facts!
Well, this is going nowhere. Oh well- what do i know...

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN

Why would you/i be in 5th going 40? Whats that- 500rpm in my car?
If you dont know how to drive a standard, sure it will take a bit longer to engauge(what- 2 seconds??!!), but IT DOESENT WRECK ANYTHING!!!!
And Id grab second anyways. Why would i want to put my car in first to get that last 500rpm, while second would offer more torque with a hair less HP?

Show me an owners manual that tells you to double clutch to save the synchos.
ITS A RICER TERM!!!
And dont say "not true". Prove your point with facts!
Well, this is going nowhere. Oh well- what do i know... alright, please shut the fuck up for a couple minutes or however fucking long your grade 2 education takes to read this post:

SORRY buddy i dont drive a mustang and neither do a lot of other people! my gearing and the way my engine is tuned is way different than that of a mustang. ask anyone whos been in my car, they can tell u that under 5000rpm, my car refuses to move, in fact its probably even slower than a civic dx if i drove under 5k rpm. the only way i can get power is to push my tiny engine up to a shitflinging 8 grand, so yes, putting it into 1st is far more viable than putting it into 2nd. its not a "hair less hp", its about 20hp according to the dyno chart. thats already 13% of my engines total output. get it? u need to stop assuming that everyone drives YOUR shitclown car. cuz we dont.

and while ure getting that fact thru your deadpan brain, try understanding that no one here has ever said that not double clutching wrecks a tranny. unlike u, i dont inbreed and i dont put words in other ppls mouths. everyone else has been saying that double clutching reduces wear on the tranny, but never did anyone say that not double clutching would wreck the tranny. so in case u cant figure out the blatantly obvious...NO im not looking it up in the owners manual.

and since when is double clutching rice? hmmm well shit, i double clutch...im a ricer, i guess ill undertake my "civic" duty to buy a big aluminum wing to help me double clutch and win races against mustangs.

[GingeRRRBeef]

Hahaha that is classic Jeff :thumbsup: Nicely said!

Yeah man, 3407, you seriously bought into the whole F&F BS. If you seriously think double clutching is a ricer term, you should probably crawl back under that rock you came from and see what else you can come up with in 10 years. Double clutching has been around long before the rice trend started so please RECOGNIZE!

[Fuji]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN
Double clutching is only necessary on trannys WITHOUT synchos. Its does nothing on transmissions with synchos except waste time.

You are kinda mislead on this topic I think. There are a lot of benefits to double clutching and heel toe otherwise racers would not use them.

[THREE40SEVEN]

LOL, i struck a nerve didn't I:poosie:
Automatically since i drive a domestic the insults start against myself and my car. Typical. I mentioned nor insulted nothing about what you drive, jackass.
My "shitclown" car is better anyways:nut: LOL
Keep double clutching.... Im not gonna stop you
And "racers" dont shift from 5th to 1st..

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by Silver_SpecV
Hahaha that is classic Jeff :thumbsup: Nicely said!

Yeah man, 3407, you seriously bought into the whole F&F BS. If you seriously think double clutching is a ricer term, you should probably crawl back under that rock you came from and see what else you can come up with in 10 years. Double clutching has been around long before the rice trend started so please RECOGNIZE!
Manifold danger!!!!!LOL
Which "racer" told you guys about double clutching? You read it on the net right?
As to my intellegence, i built my engine, TRANNY, diff, and tuned it. Speak from experience, not from what the website said.
Or fuck, buy a book. An author puts his credibility on the line while anyone can hide behind a keyboard.
This is fun

[GingeRRRBeef]

Did I say a "racer" told us about double clutching???

Like it's already been posted and a freaking FACT, double clutching was used when manual trannies didn't have synchros, you fucking moron!

[GingeRRRBeef]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN

Manifold danger!!!!!LOL
Which "racer" told you guys about double clutching? You read it on the net right?
As to my intellegence, i built my engine, TRANNY, diff, and tuned it. Speak from experience, not from what the website said.
Or fuck, buy a book. An author puts his credibility on the line while anyone can hide behind a keyboard.
This is fun

and next time you want to show how "intelligent" you are, you might wanna start by spelling it right.

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN
LOL, i struck a nerve didn't I:poosie:
Automatically since i drive a domestic the insults start against myself and my car. Typical. I mentioned nor insulted nothing about what you drive, jackass.
My "shitclown" car is better anyways:nut: LOL
Keep double clutching.... Im not gonna stop you
And "racers" dont shift from 5th to 1st.. well u bring up a good point there chet. i guess it was wrong of me to mention the shitclown car, when in fact its just a car piloted by a shitclown. how about that?

and fyi, im not a "racer" either. how about this...ill give u a ride sometime and u can hear how bad the tranny grinds when its cold if i dont double clutch.

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by Silver_SpecV
Did I say a "racer" told us about double clutching???

Like it's already been posted and a freaking FACT, double clutching was used when manual trannies didn't have synchros, you fucking moron!
Sorry, missread the post. I mistook ricer for racer.lol.
Good, your learning. Sychroless trannys need double clutching, synchoed one do not. Jeffs has synchros, so whats your point?

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by Jeff TYPE R
well u bring up a good point there chet. i guess it was wrong of me to mention the shitclown car, when in fact its just a car piloted by a shitclown. how about that?

and fyi, im not a "racer" either. how about this...ill give u a ride sometime and u can hear how bad the tranny grinds when its cold if i dont double clutch.
Because your tranny sucks... BUHhahahahahahaha. Get it fixed.
Shitclown out
this is fun.......

[GingeRRRBeef]

I'm learning??? haha What's your PhD in?

Yes Synchroless trannies need double clutching and it's also been posted already that double clutching REDUCES wear on the synchros. Holy fuck! Why don't you read the whole fucking post before you open that flying fuck trap of yours?

[szw]

The point is...your synchro's aren't used as much. As with anything else that obeys the laws of physics, things that aren't used as much have less wear.

Of course none of us (at least I don't) can tell you that the difference will be a year of life of the synchros, or 5 minutes.

I do it most of the time just because it's second nature to me. Also, it downshifts a lot smoother.

Downshifting normally, the 'smoothness' depends on how I release the clutch. If I double clutch, I release the clutch anywhichway I feel like and its perfectly smooth.

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by Silver_SpecV
I'm learning??? haha What's your PhD in?

Yes Synchroless trannies need double clutching and it's also been posted already that double clutching REDUCES wear on the synchros. Holy fuck! Why don't you read the whole fucking post before you open that flying fuck trap of yours?
Reduces it by how much- 2% if any?
Call honda and ask if they recommend that to save the synchos from excessive wear.
On a nicer note, change your tranny fluid jeff.
Anyone else want to insult me?

[GingeRRRBeef]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN

Reduces it by how much- 2% if any?
Call honda and ask if they recommend that to save the synchos from excessive wear.
On a nicer note, change your tranny fluid jeff.
Anyone else want to insult me?

Holy fuck! Can somebody please tell me how much more fucking ignorant this guy can get?

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN
on a nicer note, change your tranny fluid jeff.
Anyone else want to insult me? hmmm will do. thanks chet.

[szw]

You can't trust the dealership to tell you how to maintain your vehicle.

They'll give you factory specs, which are 'designed specifically for your vehicle'..and that's it.

Calling a mechanic at a dealer and asking him his opinion would be the same as asking the opinion of someone on this board.

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by szw
You can't trust the dealership to tell you how to maintain your vehicle. :werd: i dont know how many times ive heard them say "this new car doesnt need breaking in!"

[GingeRRRBeef]

yeah but apparently 3407 knows all cause he built his own engine, tranny and doll house, so we should just shut our mouths and bow down :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by Silver_SpecV
yeah but apparently 3407 knows all cause he built his own engine, tranny and doll house, so we should just shut our mouths and bow down :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Finally! And with your PHD i thought you could read. 347, as in cubic inches. I wish i had a 3407 and a place to put it.

[GingeRRRBeef]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN

Finally! And with your PHD i thought you could read. 347, as in cubic inches. I wish i had a 3407 and a place to put it.


hmmm .... your name does say THREE 40 SEVEN does it not?

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by Silver_SpecV



hmmm .... your name does say THREE 40 SEVEN does it not?
SILENCE!
I'll post some pics of the dollhouse when i get her done.

[GingeRRRBeef]

hahaha OWNED!

[T5_X]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN

SILENCE!
I'll post some pics of the dollhouse when i get her done.

LOL, don't forget to put an aluminum wing and type r stickers all over it.

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by Ranger_X31


LOL, don't forget to put an aluminum wing and type r stickers all over it. Done;)

[DieselBoy03]

Also don't forget to put your neon plate holder on it, you know it might add some value along with your shitclown car!! LOL :)

[Ben]

HAHAHAHAHAHA. My god, what a funny thread!

I double clutch alot in my car also, its not hurting it, and as Jeff said, I have to in the cold cold mornings also! So STFU, haha

[GingeRRRBeef]

haha

I thought it was very entertaining!

[fast95pony]

Not to add fuel to the flames but Matt (3407) does know his stuff..

Double clutching is not really needed anymore in new cars.It MIGHT save a bit of wear and tear , but the way most of you (and me )drive our cars , it's really pointless.

Perhaps if you're driving an old beat-on POS your gears will grind in the cold,but that's probably because the tranny has already been abused.


I have NEVER shifted from 5th to 1st to pass in any car ,especially if I'm already doing 40 !!


..and now , back to exploding manifolds and floor pans....

..and personal,childish insults from Newbies...


:rolleyes:

Alan

[Silencer]

Fucking retards......

[4wheeldrift]

Originally posted by fast95pony
Not to add fuel to the flames but Matt (3407) does know his stuff..

Double clutching is not really needed anymore in new cars.It MIGHT save a bit of wear and tear , but the way most of you (and me )drive our cars , it's really pointless.

Perhaps if you're driving an old beat-on POS your gears will grind in the cold,but that's probably because the tranny has already been abused.

..and now , back to exploding manifolds and floor pans....

..and personal,childish insults from Newbies...


:rolleyes:

Alan Maybe he knows his stuff about tuning a car, but when it comes to driving it he's coming up rather short. Yes, in most situations there is absolutely no point to double clutching on the street, unless your tranny is in rough shape. However, on the track (that would be the twisty bits after the nice straight piece of pavement most of you mustang guys stop at the end of :D), double clutching is an essential part of heel-toe downshifting. "Ricer" term, indeed.

[three.eighteen.]

the most i'll drop when downshifting is 2 gears, and i'll wait and heel toe into both gears, i dont understand why anyone needs to downshift from 5-2 or 5-1

[THREE40SEVEN]

For your reading pleasure
http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=9288#post9288

[sillyd]

Mad people are funny. I have no place in this argument because sometimes i'm too lazy to use the clutch at all. Oh, my poor little car...

[90_Shelby]

My synchros are on there way out in my beater....... I tried double clutching to see if it would help the gears engage. No dice, same shit if I just put it in gear. Your synchros will also last forever if you don't abuse your tranny, drive like a little old lady and change your fluid when your supposed to. Which type of racing do people supposedly use double clutching?

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by 90_Shelby
My synchros are on there way out in my beater....... I tried double clutching to see if it would help the gears engage. No dice, same shit if I just put it in gear. then there two possibilities. 1. its not the syncros 2. u dont know how to double clutch.

man, this thread already sucks...lets STOP..

[three.eighteen.]

Of course if you're going for the pimp factor, it sounds way better if you do 3 heel-toe downshifts while braking for a corner than when you perform just one
-from http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=9288#post9288

:werd:

[Ben]

Originally posted by three.eighteen.
the most i'll drop when downshifting is 2 gears, and i'll wait and heel toe into both gears, i dont understand why anyone needs to downshift from 5-2 or 5-1


Sometimes you have to if you are racing on a road course, there may be a huge strait with a sharp chicane at the end of it, and you have good breaks so you break hard and throw it from 5th into second for a good acceleration on the exit...its a simple concept really...

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by Benny



Sometimes you have to if you are racing on a road course, there may be a huge strait with a sharp chicane at the end of it, and you have good breaks so you break hard and throw it from 5th into second for a good acceleration on the exit...its a simple concept really...
Benny man, its brake, not break ;)
If you are coming into a turn, you gear down and allow the engine to help slow the car down. It also allows you to be in the gear you want when you enter and leave the turn.

[Ben]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN

Benny man, its brake, not break ;)
If you are coming into a turn, you gear down and allow the engine to help slow the car down. It also allows you to be in the gear you want when you enter and leave the turn.


your point is? its all about hopping on the throttle when you are exiting the apex, and for that you need to be in the best gear for maximum usage of your engines powerband...


when you enter a corner, you need to keep a constant maintained speed, so as long as that is there then great, but idealy you want to brake late, throw it into the gear you want to exit with at the start of the corner, and maintain that 99% cornering speed and then get on the gas. Thats why you would brake hard, shift from 5th (or whatever gear you were in after the straight) to 2nd or whatnot instead of rowing through gears. Also, who wants to have to shift while cornering? Go from 5th to 2nd or whatever the bst gear would be for the exit, and then hold that gear through the corner and floor it on the exit.

You can brake very late if you have good brakes, or you can slow the car down with your tranny, WTF is your goal, to nitpick everything? Its all dependant on the car and the driver....Its going to be far faster if you brake LATE and hop right into the gear you want, rather than rowing through each gear to slow you down. People with kick ass brakes and track rubber can get away with the late brake. And thanks for the Diction there Chet, I'll remember that for next time...fucking hell, what a useless thread. You know its bad when the topic is about cars and in the middle of it, someone points out a spelling error just to take some heat of them...:rolleyes:

[redec]

Originally posted by Benny



Sometimes you have to if you are racing on a road course, there may be a huge strait with a sharp chicane at the end of it, and you have good breaks so you break hard and throw it from 5th into second for a good acceleration on the exit...its a simple concept really...

you should still be heel-toe downshifting as you brake....leaving it in 5th gear isn't going to help you brake....4-3-2 will

[Ben]

Originally posted by redec


you should still be heel-toe downshifting as you brake....leaving it in 5th gear isn't going to help you brake....4-3-2 will


Note last post, I clarified that seeing as how everyone seems to want essay length replies.


If you have brakes and tires that can slow you down good enough to skip the middle downshifting and get right into the gear you need, or even go from say 5th to 3rd to second... why not?

[redec]

Originally posted by Benny

...idealy you want to brake late, throw it into the gear you want to exit with at the start of the corner, and maintain that 99% cornering speed and then get on the gas. Thats why you would brake hard, shift from 5th (or whatever gear you were in after the straight) to 2nd or whatnot instead of rowing through gears.


I still say you should be downshifting....downshifting will allow you to slow down faster than if you were just using brakes (unless of course you are right at the limit of your traction....in which case you're going way too fast into the corner)


Originally posted by Benny

Also, who wants to have to shift while cornering? Go from 5th to 2nd or whatever the bst gear would be for the exit, and then hold that gear through the corner and floor it on the exit.


you don't shift while corning....you don't brake while cornering either....by the time you turn in all your braking/shifting should be done, or else you have a greatly increased chance of saying hello to a wall

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by redec


you should still be heel-toe downshifting as you brake....leaving it in 5th gear isn't going to help you brake....4-3-2 will

lol, who taught u to use engine braking on the track?

[Ben]

Originally posted by redec

you don't shift while corning....you don't brake while cornering either....by the time you turn in all your braking/shifting should be done, or else you have a greatly increased chance of saying hello to a wall


HELLO!

THAT WAS MY WHOLE BASIS OF ARGUMENT! hahahahahaha

I never said you should shift or brake while turning, infact I specifically stated that!


Also, who wants to have to shift while cornering? Go from 5th to 2nd or whatever the best gear would be for the exit, and then hold that gear through the corner and floor it on the exit.

[redec]

Originally posted by Jeff TYPE R


lol, who taught u to use engine braking on the track?

you don't I assume?.....engine braking will help you slow down faster....if you can get slowed down faster, then you can stay on the throttle a little longer coming into the turn....resulting in faster overall speed....*shrug*

[redec]

Originally posted by Benny



HELLO!

THAT WAS MY WHOLE BASIS OF ARGUMENT! hahahahahaha

I never said you should shift or brake while turning, infact I specifically stated that!




my apologies...misread

[Ben]

Originally posted by redec



my appologies...misread


No worries man, its the joys of reading text, peoples interpretations are different.

I know you personally anyways, and I kinda figured you had to have misread, s'all good, looking forward to seeing the talon rip it up!

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by redec


you don't I assume?.....engine braking will help you slow down faster....if you can get slowed down faster, then you can stay on the throttle a little longer coming into the turn....resulting in faster overall speed....*shrug* true in theory, but the braking power of an engine is insignificant when the brakes are already strong enough to lock the wheels. and if they arent...then its time for upgrades!

[T5_X]

http://www.diamondtalk.com/forums/images/smilies/83/funmeter1.gif

[Ben]

Originally posted by redec


you don't I assume?.....engine braking will help you slow down faster....if you can get slowed down faster, then you can stay on the throttle a little longer coming into the turn....resulting in faster overall speed....*shrug*


The way I see it...Car A has average brakes, and so begins slowing from lets say 120MPH down to optimum corner speed, lets say 65MPH...so car A has to downshift in combination with braking in order to reach that speed in the least possible distance for that car and drivers ability.

Car B has Huge wicked brakes and coupled with damn good rubber...so he can stay WOT on the strait for lets say another 150' before having to brake, so lets say he hits 130MPH instead of the 120 that Car A started to brake at, and then brakes HARD down to 65MPH. both cars hit a cornering speed of 65MPH for the corner, but Car B got there first due to not having to take as much time downshifting...He was in WOT at 5th, and then brakedhard and threw it right into the gear for optimum exit pull. THats what I'm representing...

[redec]

Originally posted by Ranger_X31
http://www.diamondtalk.com/forums/images/smilies/83/funmeter1.gif


thanks for your input

[redec]

Originally posted by Benny



The way I see it...Car A has average brakes, and so begins slowing from lets say 120MPH down to optimum corner speed, lets say 65MPH...so car A has to downshift in combination with braking in order to reach that speed in the least possible distance for that car and drivers ability.

Car B has Huge wicked brakes and coupled with damn good rubber...so he can stay WOT on the strait for lets say another 150' before having to brake, so lets say he hits 130MPH instead of the 125 that Car A started to brake at, and then brakes HARD down to 65MPH. both cars hit a cornering speed of 65MPH for the corner, but Car B got there first due to not having to take as much time downshifting...He was in WOT at 5th, and then brakedhard and threw it right into the gear for optimum exit pull. THats what I'm representing...


I'm representing the fact that downshifting is not any slower than hard braking...in fact it is faster.....you still have your brakes on full, however your engine is revving higher as you decelerate, so it will be helping you brake also.

[James]

Originally posted by Jeff TYPE R
well there are times when i want to get from 5th to 1st....like when im cruising along in 5th at like 40 following a slow car, then i want to punch it to pass the dude....




Originally posted by Jeff TYPE R


. ask anyone whos been in my car, they can tell u that under 5000rpm, my car refuses to move, in fact its probably even slower than a civic dx if i drove under 5k rpm. the only way i can get power is to push my tiny engine up to a shitflinging 8 grand, so yes, putting it into 1st is far more viable than putting it into 2nd. its not a "hair less hp", its about 20hp according to the dyno chart. thats already 13% of my engines total output. get it? u need to stop assuming that everyone drives YOUR shitclown car. cuz we dont.



Dude! you drive your car WAY too hard, I dont even shift like that!
:rofl:...i never downshift into 1st going any faster than 25-30, more than enough torque to get me going in 2nd at those speeds, your Engine must not be running that great :dunno:


And whats witht he HUGE sigs, are u asking to get Banned from another Site? :rofl: j/k

[redec]

hehehhe...this is such a pointless thread.....but fun none-the-less :P

[T5_X]

Originally posted by redec
hehehhe...this is such a pointless thread.....but fun none-the-less :P

http://www.diamondtalk.com/forums/images/smilies/83/funmeter2.gif?? :thumbsup:

[James]

Originally posted by Ranger_X31


http://www.diamondtalk.com/forums/images/smilies/83/funmeter2.gif?? :thumbsup:

Stop it with the Fun meter!!

:rofl: :thumbsup:

[redec]

Originally posted by Jeff TYPE R
true in theory, but the braking power of an engine is insignificant when the brakes are already strong enough to lock the wheels. and if they arent...then its time for upgrades!


true in theory and in practice....if you're braking to the point of locking your wheels up it still has other advantages, such as prolonging the life of your brakes....


and on a side note....just because your brakes have the ability to lock your wheels does not mean they have the ability to slow you down as fast as possible....brakes that can apply more friction without locking the wheels will slow you down faster....for example if you have just a piece of metal for brake pads....sure it will lock your wheels up, but it won't do much for braking...

[Ben]

what rubber you have also makes a big difference in stopping distance.

[T5_X]

Originally posted by redec



true in theory and in practice....if you're braking to the point of locking your wheels up it still has other advantages, such as prolonging the life of your brakes....


and on a side note....just because your brakes have the ability to lock your wheels does not mean they have the ability to slow you down as fast as possible....brakes that can apply more friction without locking the wheels will slow you down faster....for example if you have just a piece of metal for brake pads....sure it will lock your wheels up, but it won't do much for braking...

Well wouldn't ABS solve this problem?

And what would you rather prolong the life of? Your brake pads or your engine and drivetrain, which gets a lot more load under engine braking?

[redec]

Originally posted by Ranger_X31


Well wouldn't ABS solve this problem?


no.....abs does not solve this problem...abs is not good on the track....it can save your neck if you fuck up tho....abs will unlock your wheels if you lock them up, so you get lock...unlock...lock...unlock....very jittery and unbalanced....not good on the track....


Originally posted by Ranger_X31

And what would you rather prolong the life of? Your brake pads or your engine and drivetrain, which gets a lot more load under engine braking?

I don't think assisting under full brake will put any significant amount of strain on your drive train compared to say...hard acceleration out of the turn.

[T5_X]

Originally posted by redec


no.....abs does not solve this problem...abs is not good on the track....it can save your neck if you fuck up tho....abs will unlock your wheels if you lock them up, so you get lock...unlock...lock...unlock....very jittery and unbalanced....not good on the track....



Hmmm, so threshold brake into a turn, and if you fuck up, punch the brake and let ABS kick in?


As for the drivetrain, I don't know.... For daily driving though I'll always put as little stress on the engine/drivetrain as I can for maximal life and gas mileage :)

I gotta get me a better car and hit up the track :thumbsup:

[redec]

Originally posted by Ranger_X31

...and if you fuck up, punch the brake and let ABS kick in?


heh....definatly not....if you fuck up and lock up your wheels going into the turn....without abs you will have zero traction, which means you cannot steer, and you will go straight into the wall....if you have abs it will unlock your wheels for you so you can at least steer, then it's up to you to not hit the wall

[4wheeldrift]

Originally posted by redec


no.....abs does not solve this problem...abs is not good on the track....it can save your neck if you fuck up tho....abs will unlock your wheels if you lock them up, so you get lock...unlock...lock...unlock....very jittery and unbalanced....not good on the track....



I don't think assisting under full brake will put any significant amount of strain on your drive train compared to say...hard acceleration out of the turn. It depends entirely on how fast your ABS system is modulating the brakes. This is true with a slower system, but the effect is far less pronounced on systems that are able to pump the brakes in millisecond timeframes.

[redec]

Originally posted by 4wheeldrift
It depends entirely on how fast your ABS system is modulating the brakes. This is true with a slower system, but the effect is far less pronounced on systems that are able to pump the brakes in millisecond timeframes.

that is true...abs systems have come a long way...

I guess the proper answer is know your car....know it's capabilities and (more importantly) know it's limitations

[4wheeldrift]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN
For your reading pleasure
http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=9288#post9288 I find it amusing that after calling "double clutching" a ricer term you refer to a post on a board full of experienced racers that uses the term over and over. Just an observation, not intended to be a flame.

[T5_X]

Originally posted by 4wheeldrift
It depends entirely on how fast your ABS system is modulating the brakes. This is true with a slower system, but the effect is far less pronounced on systems that are able to pump the brakes in millisecond timeframes.

How would you go about finding the exact figures for how fast your abs can modulate the brakes? Could you then theoretically find the exact speed you can start to go heavy on the brakes from this figure?

Also, do most cars these days have 4whl ABS? I know my truck has only RWABS, and it seriously does shit all in bad road conditions. Its good the rear brakes have abs cause they lock up extremely fast due to the fact that there's no weight over the wheels in braking (shitty front weight bias combined with weight tranfer forward) but in bad conditions, the front wheels lock anyways, so the ABS really doesn't help.

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by 4wheeldrift
I find it amusing that after calling "double clutching" a ricer term you refer to a post on a board full of experienced racers that uses the term over and over. Just an observation, not intended to be a flame.
I posted it as just a reading on the same topic. Not all of them are experienced;) Just like this, or any other board

[4wheeldrift]

Originally posted by Ranger_X31


How would you go about finding the exact figures for how fast your abs can modulate the brakes? Could you then theoretically find the exact speed you can start to go heavy on the brakes from this figure?

Also, do most cars these days have 4whl ABS? I know my truck has only RWABS, and it seriously does shit all in bad road conditions. Its good the rear brakes have abs cause they lock up extremely fast due to the fact that there's no weight over the wheels in braking (shitty front weight bias combined with weight tranfer forward) but in bad conditions, the front wheels lock anyways, so the ABS really doesn't help. YOu could probably find specs for the antilock system on your car on the internet somewhere, if you knew the specific type of controller module your vehicle had. I wouldn't think you'd be able calculate anything useful based on that though, your optimum braking point is set by the power of your brakes themselves, the ABS system is just a driver aid to help you get maximum braking power by not locking the wheels.

Most cars have 4 wheel ABS, but not all cars use a single channel for each wheel. A lot of cars are still using only 2 or 3 channel ABS systems (independent for each front and a single channel for the rear, or a channel for the front and one for the rear) and this can have a serious effect on braking power as it will modulate the brakes on both wheels if they are sharing a single channel, regardless of whether one wheel needs it or not.

[4wheeldrift]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN

I posted it as just a reading on the same topic. Not all of them are experienced;) Just like this, or any other board I saw enough experienced guys (people whom I know through various other boards) to make that call ;) Tis true, there are newbies everywhere though.

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by James





Dude! you drive your car WAY too hard, I dont even shift like that!
:rofl:...i never downshift into 1st going any faster than 25-30, more than enough torque to get me going in 2nd at those speeds, your Engine must not be running that great :dunno:


And whats witht he HUGE sigs, are u asking to get Banned from another Site? :rofl: j/k im just driving my car hte way its meant to be driven!