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v8killah
06-25-2005, 12:45 PM
What do you guys think about steroids.

ive been thinking of doing 1 cycle of test,

i dont want to get huge like a bodybuilder but i am pretty small and ive been working out hard for the past 6 months eating 4-5000 calories a day and i cant seen to gain.

all i want is to get up about 15 pounds then keep it there.

what do you guys think?

90awdwagovan.
06-25-2005, 12:57 PM
do it... inject those roids into your ass.

Barking_Spidre
06-25-2005, 01:02 PM
I don't see why not. :thumbsup: :rofl:

v8killah
06-25-2005, 01:06 PM
ha ha thnx for the advise. basically i want to be stronger for my job and look bigger.

but i can see you guys are childesh and like to be smartasses so nevermind.

you could also maybe help me with my current routine i dunno.

5hift
06-25-2005, 01:20 PM
If you do one cycle you probably wouldnt get that much bigger in the first place. Secondly do you want to get big to the point where you would risk bad acne, man breasts, small nuts and anger control problems?

v8killah
06-25-2005, 01:22 PM
lol of cousre i don't want those side effect.

you don't think you can gain 15-20 ponds on 1 cycle?

and will anti estrogen pills help with some of the side effevcts?

GQBalla
06-25-2005, 01:28 PM
ermm do i search on steriods and youll find a good thread abou tit somehwere here and how to stack and stuff properly

Chim
06-25-2005, 01:44 PM
I wouldn't bother with roids, if you aren't making any progress now then roids wont help.

Post up your workout and diet...

v8killah
06-25-2005, 01:49 PM
well maybe i was exxageratting, in 6 months i have gone from 135 pounds to 150 but its getting hard to progress past that.

i usually do arms, chest, shoulders,day off, legs, back/neck, day off.

4-5 excersises per muscle lifting 8-10, 6-8, then 4-6. then a 15-20. on about 2 excerises.

my diet isnt to strict, usually a shake in the mourning and night and after workout. alot of chicken and beef. but i also eat fast food about 3-5 times a week.

but latley i have become less motivated becaus eof the lack of gains and i havent been going as often. the past few weeks.

5hift
06-25-2005, 02:30 PM
It sounds like you've just hit a plateau. For someone whos naturally really skinny gaining 15 lbs over half a year is not too bad. I would suggest just to shock your body by completely changing your workout routine as you might have just adjusted to this routine. And if you are serious about gaining muscle you are going to have to take your diet more seriously as that plays a bigger role than how much you lift or how often.

bspot
06-25-2005, 02:41 PM
Instead of steroid injection, may I suggest Beef injection? :rofl:

A_3
06-25-2005, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by v8killah
well maybe i was exxageratting, in 6 months i have gone from 135 pounds to 150 but its getting hard to progress past that.

i usually do arms, chest, shoulders,day off, legs, back/neck, day off.

4-5 excersises per muscle lifting 8-10, 6-8, then 4-6. then a 15-20. on about 2 excerises.

my diet isnt to strict, usually a shake in the mourning and night and after workout. alot of chicken and beef. but i also eat fast food about 3-5 times a week.

but latley i have become less motivated becaus eof the lack of gains and i havent been going as often. the past few weeks.

I honestly wouldn't suggest steroids, but that's just my opinion, others on this site believe in the benifits and that's fine. You have to decide if you're willing to risk the side effects in order to obtain your goal. If you want to do it properly to minimize any unwanted symptoms you have to be severly strict, no fucking around with them. Fifteen pounds in 6 months is great, I would be happier then a pig in shit if I managed that, i've gained 10 in six months of hard working out and i'm pretty pleased with myself. I suggest breaking up your routine a little more, it sounds like you are doing alot of muscles in the same area per day. As you move through your excersizes you probably find you are becoming weaker and not able to perform the excersize as well as you are capable of. This is what I find for myself if I do too many in one day. I would make shorter work outs concentrating specifically on certain muscle groups. I.E. Biceps, shoulders, and back one day. Triceps, chest, and forearms the next. Then maybe dedicate one day to legs and misc. I would suggest maybe PM'ing up Wildcat, Leah, or one of the other beyond.ca fitness enthusiasts with all your questions, they should provide educated advice and insight. You might also want to see a personal trainer as they will be able to set you up with a plan that will provide you maximum gains. If your heart is set on juicing then I would maybe consider trying out creatine and other supliments prior, if you still aren't seeing what you want and you feel steroids are proper for you then go for it.

JAYMEZ
06-25-2005, 04:50 PM
Hey dude , I think you are on the wrong forum for asking about Steriods...Have you looked at what product you will be using? Have you looked at what products are going to help your liver when you are doing roids? How about how long your cycle is? And what you are going to take after you are done you cycle to maintain the body mass you have gained. I think you should check out the Steriod Forum at bodybuilders.com , its a good read , just make sure you do a search , know your product , know your goals , and know a source you can get your juice from.


Edit: Also do you know how to inject? Or are you going to take them oral?

BokCh0y
06-25-2005, 06:05 PM
There's many different types of roids out there. They work well and all but this is for short term only. I hear a lot of bad things about roids, i was even thinking about trying it myself. But after reaseaching into it, i decided that i would rather do it naturally and work at it then taking shortcuts and putting my body through all that added stress and the side effects. IMO the side effects out weigh the gains. If I was you, I'd just do it naturally and take your time. 1 cycle will do nothing for you except make you look a little bigger just for that cycle. Once your done, your fast muscle will disappear just as fast. I know guys that've been on this shit for years. Yeah their pretty big and all, but when I see them during winter - when they're not pumping the roids, they're like so small. i have one friend that started it just to try and was only going to do the 1 cycle but he's been on the shit now for 2 years on and off. He gets all ripped, cycles down get small then roids up again to gets big. He says he doesn't like being small so that is why he won't kick the shit in the can.

Stay awaw from that shit dude. Just take your time.

v8killah
06-25-2005, 07:15 PM
Thnx for all of your advise... i would really like to hear from some users or past users as well.

i myself agreg ine that i need to shock my body to get past this plateau i have reached and was thinking steroids was a good shock.

but yah if anyone waqs wondering it is 500mg? injection of test apparently top quality but when that word is used for an illeagal substance that could mean many things. and a 8 week cycle. 1 shot a week.

i am still contemplating and doing alot of research, but if i do decide to do them i will keep you guys updated on my progress for referance for future users.

PorknBeans
06-25-2005, 07:26 PM
steroids sucks balls don't use that shit, just buy a bowflex and work out daily.

buh_buh
06-25-2005, 08:10 PM
if you want 15lbs, there are better ways than doing it than with roids.
Like everyone else in here says, diet is very important. Stick with a strict diet and keep working out and you'll see that 15lbs in no time.

JAYMEZ
06-25-2005, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by v8killah
Thnx for all of your advise... i would really like to hear from some users or past users as well.

i myself agreg ine that i need to shock my body to get past this plateau i have reached and was thinking steroids was a good shock.

but yah if anyone waqs wondering it is 500mg? injection of test apparently top quality but when that word is used for an illeagal substance that could mean many things. and a 8 week cycle. 1 shot a week.

i am still contemplating and doing alot of research, but if i do decide to do them i will keep you guys updated on my progress for referance for future users.


Where would you get your Test from? And what kind ? And if you do start , get some pictures up , it would be cool to see

rahim
06-25-2005, 08:35 PM
do not buy a bowflex, its junk

and as far as steroids go, do you think you are ready to give your self hormone therapy, which it is, when you don't even know the most basic concepts of natural muscle building?

You haven't hit a plateu, you are just finished with your newbie gains, now is when your diet and intensity really come into play.

Also there is no way in hell you are consistently eating 5000 cals a day and not gaining, whether it be muscle or fat, you will gain.
5000 cals = 5 Big Mac meals a day, alot more food if you are eating even remotely healthy.

jdmakkord
06-25-2005, 08:36 PM
Years ago, I did a cycle of deca, stacked with sust 250 and winstrol tabs. Awesome gains, but I got real sick afterwards. A combination of roids, and dumbass drinking booze, left me open for the worst flu I have ever had. I went from 145 to 172 rock solid. In 3 days I lost 15lbs with the flu, and never gained it back. Not something I would do again.

rahim
06-25-2005, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by 5hift
If you do one cycle you probably wouldnt get that much bigger in the first place. Secondly do you want to get big to the point where you would risk bad acne, man breasts, small nuts and anger control problems?

someone watchs too much TV and believes everything they see

ExRollen
06-25-2005, 08:53 PM
screw these guys, take the roids dude!! nah I'm fuckin around, but most of these guys are telling you to "stick to a strict diet", well thats great if you wanna keep an eight pack while gaining 15 lbs, but for a little guy like yourself, what you want to do is eat as much as possible, obviously put some thought into what you're consuming. ie. load up on carbs before workouts, go crazy with glutamine and creatine during and after the session, and eat like a maniac the rest of the time. Go to the gym and be serious when you're in there, focus on your lifting technique, and when you're out of the gym, EAT EAT EAT!! Thats my 50 cents

hockeybronx
06-25-2005, 11:17 PM
Man it's embarassing how many smart ass comments come out of a serious thead:thumbsdow

I would never resort to steroids, the benefits are far outweighed by the drawbacks. I've done a fair amount of research on various performance enhancing drugs both in high school and college... do you realize how strict your lifestyle has to be to prevent many serious side effects? Simple things such as keeping your body hydrated, getting enough sleep, and maintaning a good balance of the 'essentials' of what your body needs from your diet are escalated in importance when changing levels of testosterone in your body.

Another thing, do you expect to take steroids for the rest of your life? Do some research on how your body reacts once you stop taking injections and see how hard it is on your body to adjust back to the changing conditions.

Yeah you have goals for fitness, we all do. Unless you are a 110% committed bodybuilder and it's your life, taking steroids is just another way of saying well I tried to fight the battle but it was too hard so I'll fight something else.

EnRich
06-26-2005, 12:14 AM
Try em... After all lifes an experiance... I know several ppl that use steriods.... I remember right before they started takin em... I remember shoulder pressing 85s with em right beside me doing the same... That was 4 - 6 months ago, now they do 120s, and I'm still at 85s... I've thought about taking em too but I work out enough and dont need to cheat... if you do your research, and dont go overboard, they wont do you harm...

JAYMEZ
06-26-2005, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by hockeybronx

Unless you are a 110% committed bodybuilder and it's your life, taking steroids is just another way of saying well I tried to fight the battle but it was too hard so I'll fight something else.


Thats my answer too.

Ive been working out for a few years now... I still have not reached my top level yet... You just need a better work out plan.

V6-BoI
06-26-2005, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by rahim
do not buy a bowflex, its junk



I hear that the bows wear out really easily. Is that why you say it's a piece of junk?

rahim
06-26-2005, 01:06 PM
the one i used was pretty much new, i didn't use it for long so i'm not sure how fast it wears out.

the motion isn't linear, if you are lifting 50lb dumbells it is 50lbs all the way through, 50lb on the bowflex feels like 25lb when you start 50lb half way through and 75lb near the end, and its not that my muscles are weaker at the end of the movement but the bows are almost completly bent over.

And even after going hard doing full workouts that usually leave me floored, i woulnd't feel it the next day, i looked it up on the net (take that for what its worth) and alot of people believe that your muscles are made to work against gravity, and resistence training just isn't as effective, what ever the reasons, i'd take a bench and sqaut rack over a bowflex any day of the week

5abi
06-26-2005, 10:35 PM
Hey dood,

First thing is first, i would highly suggest a stronger education on steroids, try www.bodybuilding.com.

More over, plan your first cycle out very carefully, as the 1st cycle is gonna give you the biggest gains.


EDUCATION EDUCATION EDUCATION.

Keep anti-es on you, keep your post-cycle up 2 date.

2.4l
06-27-2005, 03:14 AM
roids are for pussys:thumbsup:

lastprodigy
06-27-2005, 01:25 PM
know a guy who took some oral roids, dbo i think it was.....he went from a pretty cut 150 to 167.....filled him up good.......only kept half of it though, fucked him for sure though

Dave P
06-27-2005, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by 2.4l
roids are for pussys:thumbsup:


That thing in your sig is for pussys.

JAYMEZ
06-27-2005, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by 5abi
Hey dood,

First thing is first, i would highly suggest a stronger education on steroids, try www.bodybuilding.com.

More over, plan your first cycle out very carefully, as the 1st cycle is gonna give you the biggest gains.


EDUCATION EDUCATION EDUCATION.

Keep anti-es on you, keep your post-cycle up 2 date.


Read my first post..

89coupe
06-27-2005, 02:47 PM
Depending on the type of steroids, they will give you greater gains than a natural approach, there is no denying that. But there is always consequences.

Steroids will make you grow and increase your strength but they are very hard on the tendons. I have a friend who has had two shoulder surgeries because of steroids.

Steroids stops your body from producing testosterone, at the same time the body is getting huge dosages of unnatural testosterone which makes the body produce more estrogen to balance itself out, hence the cause of bitch tits.

When you go off steroids it takes awhile for your body to start producing testosterone again, during this time you can't get a hard on if your life depended on it.

Steroids are also known to cause cists and tumors. Some have fatal results.

Steroids have a very negative side effect on the heart. Because the heart is a muscle it grows when taking steroids, the draw back is when you go off steroids the heart shrinks but the valves don't, which causes your heart to work harder. This can cause heart attacks and strokes.

Steroids do not cause acne or hair loss but if your family background has hair loss or acne problems it will amplify those problems in yourself. So if you are losing your hair now or are prone to acne, this will be magnified greatly by steroid use.

Steroids do not cause roid rage, in fact case studies have shown steroid users are more subdued and passive then patience who are not taking them.

I think the scariest thing is not knowing what you are taking? Are you 100% sure what has been sold to you is real? For all you know you could be injecting animal steroids into your body or unknown chemicals or worse.

If you want to get past that plateau I suggest giving your body a little rest. Increase your weight, reduce your reps and eat 8 times a day if you can.

JAYMEZ
06-27-2005, 03:45 PM
FAQs.

1.I'm not yet 21, should I use steroids ?

HELL NO. Plain and simple. Steroids WILL, not may, WILL stunt your growth. They close the epiphysial plates in your bones and stop all possibility of attaining a greater height. Further more using steroids during puberty, when you are dealing with an already very unstable endocrine system can have severe consequences in the long run : Erectile dysfunction (impotence), loss of libido and even infertility ! I assume most men in their late teens and twenties hope to have children some day and lead a long and fulfilling sex life, so steroids before the age of 21 : NO ! Questions about steroids by teens may well be ignored.

If you are a teenager wondering about steroids, heed this advice. Read the boards, absorb the knowledge and learn so you can use them properly when you are old enough. But for your own good steer clear of them now. For once and for all, use your mind, we have nothing to gain or lose by telling you not to use them.

2.Steroids are not magic !

They are merely effective hormonal supplements. They increase the rate of protein synthesis in the body, but to synthsize protein one still needs to take in enough protein and take care of his energy needs with fats and carbs. Those thinking that steroids will get them out of the rut their bad diets have created are sorely mistaken. A steroid user needs a minimum of experience because his diet will take a lot more work than the diet of a natural athlete. We are talking in excess of 25 calories per pound of bodyweight daily, where 18-22 will suffice for a natural. And most can't even make that. Large amount of proteins especially need to be consumed. Upwards of 1.5 grams per pound of bodyweight daily. Steroids do not cause growth, they merely speed up the process and stretch it to supra-physiological levels, working with the means they have. And those means are the food you consume.

IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT YOU ATTEMPT TO ATTAIN GROWTH BY PROPERLY ADJUSTING YOUR DIET BEFORE EVEN CONSIDERING STEROIDS !

3.You should not use steroids until you have reached your natural limit.

Well lets say you need to be close to it. This has a lot to do with the previous points and for two reasons. The first being that if you are not near your natural limit, there is no way you tried enough variations in your diet to assume you are ready to use steroids.

The second reason is that if you cannot attain a near natural limit, you simply do not possess the nutritional skills to make steroids work to their maximum. The result being that you will waste a lot of money, get lots of side-effects, but not the gains you were hoping for.

4.You should have all your gear and drugs prior to starting a cycle !

Ordering steroids in many small packages reduces the cost of each package and reduces the chance of a large amount being seized. Do not however, start a cycle with your first package if the rest has not arrived. Breaks in a cycle can be hazardous to recovery, mass retention and your entire endocrine system, often with disastrous long-term consequences. If your package does not arrive, or does not arrive on time, you will have to stop your cycle, stay off as long as you were on and start again from square one.

This goes for ancillary drugs as well. All of us are quite sick of hearing from kids that their cycle is almost over, yet they don't have Nolva /clomid to help them kick natural test back in after the cycle. Sorry, that's not our problem, its something that would not have happened had you done some basic research first. DO NOT post such stupid questions on the board. We will keep a two strikes and you're out; record, meaning the first time you get a warning, the second time you get banned.

5. Source posting is a no-no.

Read the board rules, talk to the mods.

6.What sort of gains should I expect ?

This is a question dependent on too many variable factors and has no answer. DO NOT ASK THIS QUESTION. It only works on people's nerves and makes them not want to answer your other questions. This is possibly the dumbest question you can ask.

7. Do i need something to bring my natural test levels up after a test cycle?

This should go without saying. If you were thinking of asking this question, take it from me, you are not ready to start using steroids. After a cycle of steroids your natural sex hormone levels will be severely suppressed due to a mechanism called negative feedback. To preserve gains and keep a mentally and physically healthy life-style, you need to get your testosterone levels back on line. When a deficit of steroids in the body has occured, it will attempt to make natural testosterone again. But unfortunately steroid levels do not drop off, usually there is an estrogen rebound which prolongs the negative feedback. Estrogen of course will not suffice to keep your gains. So the need of an estrogen antagonist is needed post-cycle, either Clomid (clomiphene citrate) or Nolvadex (tamoxifen citrate).

During longer or very suppressive cycles (Deca, long term test, trenbolone) your testicles may begin to shrink heavily due to disuse. this may make it harder to make natural test right off the bat. In such cases it is advised you use HCG as well to bring back the size of the testicles first.

8.When should I use Clomid or Nolvadex for this purpose ? How long and how much ?

This depends first of all on the products used. Specifically what the longest acting product was in teh cycle. If you used only orals or test suspension or winstrol injections, then you need to start Clomid/Nolva therapy immediately afterwards. If short esters like propionate or acetate were used, then start 4-6 days after your last shot. If you use long esters (enanthate, undecylenate, undecanoate, decanoate, enanthate/heptylate, ...) then start therapy 10-14 days after your last shot.

For Clomid start with 150 mg/day for 2 weeks, then 100 mg/day for 2 more weeks. With nolvadex, which should be given preference, start with 50 mg/day for 2 weeks and 25 mg/day for 2 more weeks. In both cases that is 4 weeks.

Before using these , consult the appropriate profiles on these substances as found in this site's steroid profiles section :

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catsteroids.htm

9. When, how and how much HCG should I use ?

Again, consult the appropriate profile for more detailed information prior to use. But basically the idea is to start as soon as your cycle is over, or even the last week of the cycle. Take 4 shots over 20 days, 3000/3000/1500/1500 IU respectively, taken every 5 days. For this method, inject intra-muscularly. HCG can also be injected subcutanously but that requires more injections.

Two things to note : HCG is suppressive of natural testosterone, so make sure your Nolvadex or Clomid therapy lasts at least 2 weeks longer than your HCG therapy. NEVER do an HCG run without the concommittant use of Clomid or Nolvadex.

HCG in high doses or during long term use (longer than 25 days or higher than 5000 IU per shot) can have a reverse effect and may hinder your recovery, stick to the above protocol.

HCG comes in two vials, once vials are mixed, it needs to be kept refridgerated.

10.I heard you can drink Injectable winstrol / D-bol. Is this true ? Are the results the same ?

This is one question all of us are REALLY sick of hearing.Winstrol (stanazolol) and D-bol (methandrostenolone) are both 17-alpha-alkylated steroids. 17-alpha-alkylation is a structural alteration that allows the steroid to withstand degradation in the liver and makes them orally available. So YES, these steroids can be taken orally.

Note 1 : The efficacy of this method is equal to taking an oral winstrol or D-bol preparation. Usually this is 75-80% of the efficacy one would get when injecting. Most are willing to accept 1/5th less gains or will take 1/5th more of the product because taking it orally is still easier than daily injections

Note 2 : These products are toxic to the liver. When injected they only pass the liver once, so they are a little less toxic. When ingested, only use them for 6 weeks on end and then stay away from them for 14 weeks. This goes for all 17AA steroids.

Note 3 : Not all injectable steroids can be taken orally, only 17AA steroids (D-bol, Winstrol, Anavar, Anadrol) and 1-methylated substances (Proviron and Primobolan). Other injectables will yield only 4-6% of their injectable capacity.

JAYMEZ
06-27-2005, 03:48 PM
Also , this is how you inject...

http://www.spotinjections.com/index3.htm

89coupe
06-27-2005, 03:57 PM
Steroids are bad, PERIOD!

There is a reason why they are illegal.

1-Cent
06-27-2005, 04:20 PM
Hey v8killah, I'm not sure where to start with ya bro, first off what are your stats? Age/Weight/Training experiance/Diet/Body type etc., lay it all out there.
I skimmed over the replies, it seems like everyone here is just regurgetating what a friend of a friend's gym buddy heard around the leg press machine.

Of course there are potential issues that can occur with AAS use, most of which can be controlled, but at the same time that doesn't make them for everyone. You say you've been working out hard for 6 months, frankly thats nothing. You also said you're quite small and want to gain 15lbs, to be very honest with you bro if you can't diet and train properly to the degree that you can gain mass on your own, steroids will not help you period. Muscle doesn't appear out of thin air, you could take obscene amounts of steroids, doses that would make Coleman look like a newbie, and simpley blow up with water retention and fat because the muscle building material isn't there to create the muscle tissue from - this comes from your diet.

In my opinion, if you do not have 6 years of solid training under your belt you have ZERO business doing steroids and the years where you were learning the ropes and messing with uneffective training and diet do not count, 6 serious years. You need these years of experiance to properly utilize the advantage AAS gives you, don't fool yourself and think you can figure it out as you go along, it will be a costly mistake for both your wallet and your health.

Train hard, diet effectively, learn everything you can about the sport from seasoned vets, books, the net, anything you can get your hands on and in a few years when you're physique has reached a real platue (not one created by poor diet or training), then look towards the darkside.
A lot of people get their mind made up way too soon in the game and end up making poor decitions that they regret down the road, I see it all the time man.
Feel free to contact me with any questions bro, take it from someone with a great deal of personal AAS cycling experiance, hope you make the rigth choice.

JeremyD
06-28-2005, 04:07 PM
Another thing that hasn't been pointed out is that shortly after you stop taking them you drop a much of what you have gained size wise. They can help but it probably isn't worth it.

Your best bet right now is to post what you have eaten for a couple of days. Don't do a "I think I ate this and maybe some of that" but at each meal record what you have eaten and the time you ate. Record everything you eat or drink. Including water consumption. Also make sure to include approximate weight not just 2 hamburgers, but 2 x 1/4 lbs (precooked) hamburgers. Or the like.

If you eat fast food visit their websites and you can often get the nuitritional info from there.

1-Cent
06-28-2005, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by JeremyD
Another thing that hasn't been pointed out is that shortly after you stop taking them you drop a much of what you have gained size wise. They can help but it probably isn't worth it.

Well... if you didn't know how to properly diet, train or practice good recovery methods post cycle then yes, which would be true in this case.

JeremyD
06-29-2005, 03:27 PM
Just going based on what I read off www.davedraper.com in an article he did on steroids..


I was ten years into my training, 235 pounds and already Mr. America before steroids came on the scene. I used them sparingly under a doctor's supervision and noticed marked improvement in my muscularity and separation. I also noticed a marked loss of improvement as I stopped taking them, and here is where the big catch is.

I would think that Dave Draper would know a little about training and nutrition.

I have heard similar things all over the place. YOu aren't going to loose all the size you gained but if you have proper training, nutrition and recovery in place you are likely to notice the same gains over the long run. BUt I could be wrong.

1-Cent
06-29-2005, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by JeremyD
Just going based on what I read off www.davedraper.com in an article he did on steroids..

I would think that Dave Draper would know a little about training and nutrition.

I have heard similar things all over the place. YOu aren't going to loose all the size you gained but if you have proper training, nutrition and recovery in place you are likely to notice the same gains over the long run. BUt I could be wrong.

You're missing one very key fact, genetic potential. It takes a fairly gifted individual to make it to 235lbs at competition bodyfat, I would think it is safe to say that 235lbs at that bodyfat would be Dave's genetic limit for muscle cell growth.

There comes a point where you can't gain anymore muscle mass naturally, its a physiological impossibility or else we'd have 400lb monsters walking around that have been steadily growing into their 40s. The range is about 210-230lbs lean for a caucasian male and this genetic limit is usually reached in the mid 30s when hyperplasia (creation of new muscle cells vs hypoplasia which is the growth of existing cells) begins to drop off with hGH decline. Keep in mind AAS only causes hypoplasia, not hyperplasia, only hGH and derivatives like LR3 IGF-1, PGF-2a, etc. can cause hyperplasia.

If he took AAS to surpass his genetic limit and pretend he made it to 265lbs lean, he would then need to stay on AAS indefinetly to maintain the difference or his body would slowly force itself back to where it likes be according to its own genetics, 235lbs.

On the other hand if he hit the sauce at 200lbs, made it to 235lbs, then quit and did everything perfectly post cycle, he would stay at 235lbs without any AAS because its within his genetic limit.

If you want some personal examples, before I started to touch my genetic potential I would gain on average 20lbs per 12 week cycle and keep 16 or 17lbs of it, the 3 or 4lbs lost being water retention. It depends how lean you keep your diet on cycle, I've gained 35lbs on cycle before and kept 28 but around 8lbs or so would've been fat, I go leaner now. If everything is good, 80%+ is keepable, if you don't know what you're doing you could lose it all easily.

v8killah
07-04-2005, 11:15 PM
Thnx for all of your advise, i really looked into bodybuilding.com, and some other reputible sites. I found out that alot of what was said in this thread is untrue and there are alot of myths around about steroids.

but after all of my reading steroids have many pros and cons as many of you all know but if done right the cons can be very small and the pros well they can really help and stay on after a cycle.

don't know if any of you care but im not going to them anytime this summer but maybe in a few months... i really want to train hard naturalyt and see where i can get.