Whats wrong with Automatic? [Archive] - Beyond.ca - Car Forums

max_boost

01-22-2003, 02:08 AM

Originally posted by ecstasy_civic
no doubt!
man i wouldnt put up with any shit from anybody, how many people your age drive a nice bmw with rims and a kit???? i cant honestly think of to many:thumbsup:

Well thank you for those kind words my friend.....

All I am saying is even little kids get drilled into their head that manual is indeed better than auto.....now where did all this get started?

I like auto because I can do multiple things at the same time but even now I prefer to just concentrate on the roads

James

01-22-2003, 02:10 AM

Originally posted by RX-7_TWINTURBO
Auto's are nice for daily commuting

i like the fact that i can drink a coffee and drive at the same time
:bigpimp:

That one good/bad thing about Auto's, good because you can do other things while driving alot easier, but Very bad because it takes your attention away from the Road!:thumbsdow

Dont worry Sam ,In like 10 years it will be hard to find cars that come standard( brand new ones anyway)...except for Real enthuisiast cars and High end sports cars, Standard tranny's seem to be fading out pretty Quick. Which Really Sucks! After my Passat i swore i would never buy another Auto again, just because i enjoy driving standard so much more, its all about preference...1 of my boss's work Trucks is Std, and its such a peice of shit! '87 Ford Diesel, but i dont mind driving it that much because its standard, makes it tolerable! lol.

RX-7_TWINTURBO

01-22-2003, 02:16 AM

a coffee dosent take much attention off the road ...it's just a bitch to shift and hold the wheel at the same time when you have somthing in your hand

Mikko

01-22-2003, 02:20 AM

Somehow I don't see the auto trend coming - maybe because 85% of all vehicles here are manuals? :clap: I've never driven an auto before. Only been inside when another guy was driving (once) and seen them around in dealers. Dealers seem to want to push autos.. oil companies and the car manufacturers both gain an extra buck from people doing so.

If gas prices go up, you'll probably see a manual trend coming - or maybe we'll get mainly CVT and such things.

The Torque Converter - Automatic transmissions usually use a torque converter instead of a mechanical link (clutch) like in manual transmissions. This causes about 10% of the power from the engine to be wasted, leading to higher fuel consumption and slower acceleration.

Number of Gears - Automatic transmissions often have 4 gears instead of the standard 5 on manual transmissions. This causes slower acceleration and higher fuel consumption.

Increased Weight - Automatic transmissions weigh up to 40kg/90lbs more, which has the effects of longer braking distance, worse cornering abilities, worse acceleration and higher fuel consumption.

Risks and dangers - Automatics lack the ability to quickly disconnect the engine from the tyres when sliding, thus decreasing ones chance of correcting a slide. Manuals that, for example, have had their engines die on a rail-track can simply put it in first gear, and let the starter-engine pull the car off the tracks. Not so with automatics.

Dead Battery - The battery can die for different reasons. Many have experienced accidentally leaving their headlights on all day when parked, draining the battery. With a manual transmission car, you can roll-start the car. Not so with an automatic.

As for doing things other than driving - when driving, that sounds terribly undisciplined. Don't see that kind of stuff around here...

James

01-22-2003, 02:21 AM

ok, mikko, well its a NORTH AMERICAN Trend, thats for sure.

max_boost

01-22-2003, 02:24 AM

Originally posted by Mikko
I've never driven an auto before.

Really? You learnt to drive on a manual? I find that weird because I thought instructors would teach you how to drive first in a auto and then teach you manual later on......

Mikko

01-22-2003, 02:25 AM

I'd agree with that. Other trends include more usage of seatbelt but less compitable vehicles (truck types) which cause more deaths, and overall worse fuel economy for vehicles bought.

I don't know if general skills are up or down.. people seem pretty unknowing of a lot of things (americans mainly) and their attitudes regarding safe driving is not much to cheer for.

James

01-22-2003, 02:26 AM

Mikko

01-22-2003, 02:28 AM

Originally posted by max_boost

Really? You learnt to drive on a manual? I find that weird because I thought instructors would teach you how to drive first in a auto and then teach you manual later on......

Yeah, and my dad taught me. It took about 30 minutes from the very first time I started up the car before I could drive around without hitches and stalling every two minutes. If he had only explained certain things better, I think I could have cut the time down by half or so.

It's really not hard at all. An hour in a parking lot with someone who explained it well, tops, for any person. But finding someone who can EXPLAIN it well can be hard.

EDIT: Pretty much all the driving schools teach primarily manuals. No one takes auto licenses anyway. Why? Because if you do, you cannot legally drive manual cars, and considering that nearly all cars are manual, that's like not having a license at all.

RX-7_TWINTURBO

01-22-2003, 02:29 AM

ecstasy_civic

01-22-2003, 02:29 AM

i learned on a 99' cobra 5spd

dont ask what happend:thumbsdow :rofl:

Mikko

01-22-2003, 02:33 AM

From what I've read in publications and driving school teachers, they say that learning manual from the start is easier down the road and overall better.

Those who learn on autos first can have more problems to learn the concept of revs/gears, have bad driving habits such as excessive use of brake etc that all makes it more problematic.

max_boost

01-22-2003, 02:34 AM

I learnt to drive auto/manual on my own! I was a rebel! haha j/k
Who needs drivers school? haha

ecstasy_civic

01-22-2003, 02:36 AM

its called experiance! people gain it with driving certain types of cars, auto or std. either way,sam you know what i mean, you must know things about auto that i dont know just like i know things about std. that you dont know.
its just what you come acustomed too!:poosie:

FiveFreshFish

01-22-2003, 02:38 AM

Originally posted by Mikko
From what I've read in publications and driving school teachers, they say that learning manual from the start is easier down the road and overall better.

Those who learn on autos first can have more problems to learn the concept of revs/gears, have bad driving habits such as excessive use of brake etc that all makes it more problematic.

That is SO true. I learned when I was 15 driving my $850 Celica up and down the alley until I got the hang of it. Many friends who have driven automatics for years don't even want to try driving a manual. Those that do try and stick with it just aren't as smooth as the ones who learned early.

James

01-22-2003, 02:41 AM

I Taught my sister how to Drive Standard a couple months ago on my car, and becuase i was able to explain it to her,and she listened carefully, she was perfect. No problems, and that was with about 30 minutes driving experience over 2 years ago on my moms car when she first got her learners, other than that she had never drove before, so i was Quite impressed. I Taught myself how to drive standard and i was Quite horrible for the first couple weeks until i figured everything out, it was Just brutal :rofl:

ecstasy_civic

01-22-2003, 02:44 AM

lol my friend in vancouver couldve bought the nicest 90' supra turbo ive ever seen. but it was std. and he didnt want to learn,so instead he bought an auto camaro, he had to learn to drive std. for a job. now he loves it and kicks himself that he didnt buy the supra, i make sure to remind him everytime i talk to him lol.
my point is learning to drive std. is not hard it just takes paitience if your not as skilled as me:rofl: itll never hurt to learn if you dont try

just my over tired 2 cents:zzz:

GTS Jeff

01-22-2003, 03:06 AM

well, i am still perfecting driving manual since ive driven auto for 3 years straight prior to buying my ae86. the only thing i dont like about manual is that it takes up a lot of my concentration, so that i end up being a shittier overall driver compared with when i drive auto. however, im confident that ill soon get over this when manual becomes second nature to me.

manual allows a ton more control of the car than auto, which is awesome.

Mikko

01-22-2003, 03:12 AM

I find that manual shifting is autonomous - that is, it doesn't require concious thinking, all you need to think is "shift" and it's done. Just like walking and breathing is.

boi-alien

01-22-2003, 03:20 AM

yup drivin 5 speed becomes second nature, i don't even think of shifting now, don't even look at my tach, for daily driving, i just sorta know exactly when i should be shifting, and my legs and arms do it all by themselves

kenny

01-22-2003, 03:21 AM

computer controlled manual transmissions is the way of the future IMO... all the benefits of a manual transmission, controlled by computer precision. Perfect shifts, every time allowing you to focus on driving rather than shifting, even if it is second nature to you.

Of course there will be people out there that still prefer to row through the gears themselves, but they won't have any more control over the car than with a system like SMG.

GTS Jeff

01-22-2003, 03:29 AM

Originally posted by Mikko
I find that manual shifting is autonomous - that is, it doesn't require concious thinking, all you need to think is "shift" and it's done. Just like walking and breathing is.

Originally posted by crxboi
yup drivin 5 speed becomes second nature, i don't even think of shifting now, don't even look at my tach, for daily driving, i just sorta know exactly when i should be shifting, and my legs and arms do it all by themselves

thats exactly what i want to be able to do. right now, i waste so much time staring at the tach and speedo figuring out the proper rpms during heel-toe and whatnot...

Originally posted by kenny
computer controlled manual transmissions is the way of the future IMO... all the benefits of a manual transmission, controlled by computer precision. Perfect shifts, every time allowing you to focus on driving rather than shifting, even if it is second nature to you.

Of course there will be people out there that still prefer to row through the gears themselves, but they won't have any more control over the car than with a system like SMG.

true, but theres the FUN factor!

Ben

01-22-2003, 03:31 AM

The typical "slush Box" is trash IMO, I dont care how convenient it is. Unless you are triving a Porsche Tip-Tronic, SMG, or any other HIGH HIGH end Autos then go standard...even the autos on the lower end bimmers are terrible IMO.

I drove a 6speed Auto this past weekend and let me tell you that was pretty damn sweet, but nothing is better than shifting for yourself IMO.

I guess thats why I like the Style of Tranny in the SLK32AMG and Porsche Tips, and Such, cause they will hold the gear until you shift. Just the same, I myself prefer a standard transmission. The Current cars on the road just dont seem to have the perfect set up...well, at least the cars under 100K...

KoRnJD

01-22-2003, 09:04 AM

Well,

When my wife (almost) and I bought our first car, she wanted an auto. I decided to put my foot down, and we got a standard. She didn't/wouldn't/couldn't drive it for about a week, until she had to go to an interview. She was forced to try.

Now, she hates autos and will only drive a manual. That was only a little over two years ago.

Both of our cars are 5-sp. She wants an SUV now(:thumbsdow), but only if it's a manual she says... :werd:

My .02

rage2

01-22-2003, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by Mikko
The Torque Converter - Automatic transmissions usually use a torque converter instead of a mechanical link (clutch) like in manual transmissions. This causes about 10% of the power from the engine to be wasted, leading to higher fuel consumption and slower acceleration.

Locking TQ converters have been around for over 10 years.

Originally posted by Mikko
Number of Gears - Automatic transmissions often have 4 gears instead of the standard 5 on manual transmissions. This causes slower acceleration and higher fuel consumption.

Most auto trannies are 5 speed now. Even VW has the 6 speed Auto tranny in their cars. There's also better management of gear selection with modern auto trannies resulting in better fuel economy than manual transmission versions of the same car.

Originally posted by Mikko
Increased Weight - Automatic transmissions weigh up to 40kg/90lbs more, which has the effects of longer braking distance, worse cornering abilities, worse acceleration and higher fuel consumption.

Highly debatable... I've seen many cases where the auto tranny is lighter than the manual tranny counterpart. It's dependant on the tranny design.

Welcome to the 21st century :D.

rage2

01-22-2003, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by RX-7_TWINTURBO
i find that you become a better driver if you learnt manual first ..anyone else think this ?

I learned to drive in an Austin Mini Cooper 4 speed manual when I was 12 years old. I'm a shitty ass driver :D.

three.eighteen.

01-22-2003, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by max_boost
Nothing? Yah, I thought so.....haha
Personal preference? I thought so....haha

But yet I'm still getting cussed out by little 13 year olds (my little brothers friends)

Sweet car! Too bads its automatic, thats so weak, I thought you were a man?

Well fcuk off little man:guns: :rofl:

I think I am gonna get a 5 speed next time to save myself the ridicule......:thumbsdow

hehe, i remember i was washing my car on the driveway once and went inside to get something, i come out and some kid is oggling my car (its badgeless, so he dont know its a 318 unless he knows 1 tail pipe) and the one thing i hear him say "aww cool, its standard"...its true, you get no props from 13 year olds unless its stick :rofl: :rofl:

rage2

01-22-2003, 09:47 AM

So I re-read this thread and I realized something...

Originally posted by max_boost
But yet I'm still getting cussed out by little 13 year olds (my little brothers friends)

.
.
.

I think I am gonna get a 5 speed next time to save myself the ridicule......:thumbsdow

So what you're telling me is... you want to switch to 5 speed to impress 13 year old boys?

Time to move this thread to Ask Leo! :rofl:

Mikko

01-22-2003, 10:03 AM

Locking TQ converters have been around for over 10 years. There's also better management of gear selection with modern auto trannies resulting in better fuel economy than manual transmission versions of the same car

I don't believe this lockup cancels out the torque converter power loss. If you look at most fuel economy declarations for vehicles, the auto most definitely must suffer power loss. It is true that some cars definitely get better fuel ratings in the city when auto.

Most auto trannies are 5 speed now. Even VW has the 6 speed Auto tranny in their cars.

It looks like 5 speed autos are as common as 6 speed manuals, so in general, it's still about one less gear.

I've seen many cases where the auto tranny is lighter than the manual tranny counterpart. It's dependant on the tranny design.

I haven't seen a single one. In certain cars such as Celica the 4 speed is 46kg heavier. In the RSX, the 5-speed auto weighs 35kg more. On the Accord Coupé 5-speed it's 29kg.

max_boost

01-22-2003, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by rage2
So I re-read this thread and I realized something...

So what you're telling me is... you want to switch to 5 speed to impress 13 year old boys?

Time to move this thread to Ask Leo! :rofl:

Bastard! Such sick interpretations!:rofl:

Superesc

01-22-2003, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by max_boost

Bastard! Such sick interpretations!:rofl:

emmmm if that's the interpretation, then I retract my first reply to this thread hehehehhe :rofl:

Stratus_Power

01-22-2003, 11:26 AM

i thought they all drive standard in Europe? when i was in Germany EVERY SINGLE CAR was standard... then the company had to go to some American rental place to get us a Auto ( $300 US for 2 days on an Auto Passat! )

then one day some guy from work came to take us to a tour around town.. and he couldn't drive the Auto Passat :P it was pretty funny...
" soo... wat do i do... step on the break.. okay.. just... D right? okay.." :P

2000impreza

01-22-2003, 12:24 PM

who gives a rats ass what some 13 year old shit head thinks of your car.....

IMO autos are alright.... depends on the car and person the most.

some of you guys are way too closed minded..... slush box this... auto that..... i'll stop now since this is turning into a useless debate of what is more superior....

Mikko

01-22-2003, 12:29 PM

It's all about preference.. and skill of course. :poosie: For many I suspect it is an image thing too, which is not my area of debate.

Incase mr 4wheeldrift is watching - what do those sequentials on WRC cars sell for?

2000impreza

01-22-2003, 12:31 PM

i could be worng but i heard the sequential on wrc cars go for $12k+ US.

GTS Jeff

01-22-2003, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by Mikko

I don't believe this lockup cancels out the torque converter power loss. If you look at most fuel economy declarations for vehicles, the auto most definitely must suffer power loss. It is true that some cars definitely get better fuel ratings in the city when auto. the whole point of the lockup is to improve fuel efficiency. once the tc locks up, its no different than a mechanical link. normally power is transferred thru fluids inthe tc until it locks, whereby the link becomes mechanical

Mikko

01-22-2003, 12:33 PM

12k for 5-6 speed sequential WRC spec gearboxes? :eek: Cheesus! I think I'll forget any plan even remotely thinking in that direction then.:banghead:

Mikko

01-22-2003, 12:34 PM

Yeah I caught that part, Jeff, but how come cars with lock-up still get worse fuel numbers than their manual counterparts on highways? I simply don't know. There must be some loss somewhere that doesn't occur on manuals.

2000impreza

01-22-2003, 12:39 PM

i think it has to do with the gearing and final drive ratio since most ecno box auto's have only 4 forward gears while the manuals have 5 forward gears. the really old maunals had only 4 forward gears too.... do don't know how it would compare.

rage2

01-22-2003, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by 2000impreza
i could be worng but i heard the sequential on wrc cars go for $12k+ US.

You can get Quaife sequentials for $10-$15K USD depending on model/application.

The XTRAC boxes for the WRC cars start at around $45K USD.

Mikko

01-22-2003, 12:53 PM

What about overdrive and such things? I've yet to see any auto that has identical or better numbers for highway, and usually they have worse in city too.

45..? Okay rage, just run me over with the SLK.

HRD2PLZ

01-22-2003, 01:42 PM

I have had 3 autos and 2 5-speeds. I think I actually prefer autos now, especially for work. Maybe sometime in the near future I'll have my automatic family car for work, and my 6-speed sports car :D

lammer

01-22-2003, 02:00 PM

I want to learnnnnnn how to drive standard.....SOMEONE TEACH ME!!!!!..damn haha i need a good teacher so i won't funk up your car. if i had a standard at home i would teach my self, but no one in my fmily drives a manual, they all went onto the auto roads. my uncle had a standard..but he sold it to get an auto family sedan, when he got married..

ohhhhhhh comon haah someone teach me!!

Ben

01-22-2003, 02:14 PM

I learned to drive on a standard...its all about multi tasking. If you get frazzled by lots happpening at once (really its not hard but some people cannot do several things at once), then dont bother, your just a danger to everyone on the road.

CVPP

01-22-2003, 02:42 PM

I learned in my buddies GEO prizm...Haha whata piece of shit but It was funny because I never drove stick but he got out of the car and left it running so I hopped in the passenger side and took off and was able to drive it fine I guess since I know what happens when you push the clutch and then let it out It was a hell of alot simpler.

Mikko

01-22-2003, 02:44 PM

lol, everyone drives manuals here. Old gramdmoms who are nutty, young girls who are wimpy and afraid of everything, homosexuals, barbie worshipping guys, everyones parents, delivery vans, taxis.. everything.

If they can do it, so can you all!

Did I tell you? Nearly all taxis here are mercedes wagons.

CRXguy

01-22-2003, 02:55 PM

The first car I ever drove was a standard, '77 Civic!:D

Anyways, my uncle taught me on a slight incline. Took a little while, but soon mastered it and the rest is simple!

I just find auto so boring to drive!!

GTS Jeff

01-22-2003, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by Mikko
Yeah I caught that part, Jeff, but how come cars with lock-up still get worse fuel numbers than their manual counterparts on highways? I simply don't know. There must be some loss somewhere that doesn't occur on manuals. its cuz they arent "always" locked up. most tcs dont lock up until u are cruising in overdrive...its also partly becuz of the longer gearing.

btw, overdrive is just a term applied to the highest gear in an automatic.

Nix87

01-22-2003, 05:37 PM

Im still learning manual..but on my g/f's piece of crap suzuki sidekick...but manual for sure would be more entertaining than auto...although i don't mind auto at all.

Nick

szw

01-22-2003, 05:42 PM

I love my 6spd! Won't go back to an auto (for my own car) unless i lose an arm or leg.

I have no problem with the SMG or those 'high performance auto's", they'll just be out of my league for a long time to come.

Stratus_Power

01-22-2003, 05:52 PM

I drive Auto :D

Lo)2enz0

01-22-2003, 06:24 PM

I drive an auto. Personally I like having an auto during the winter. Plus there is only 10% out of the time I drive I wish I had a manual. Plus its a sohc d16y7 so there is no point in making this engine fast. I am just going for a smooth ride so suspension is a biggy in my plans. meh, automatics and manuals even out. I bet people with a manual wish they had a automatic during the winter.

Laurier

Ben

01-22-2003, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by Lo)2enz0
I drive an auto. Personally I like having an auto during the winter. Plus there is only 10% out of the time I drive I wish I had a manual. Plus its a sohc d16y7 so there is no point in making this engine fast. I am just going for a smooth ride so suspension is a biggy in my plans. meh, automatics and manuals even out. I bet people with a manual wish they had a automatic during the winter.

Laurier
Winter is when I'm glad I have a Standard the MOST. So much more safe.

Lo)2enz0

01-22-2003, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by Benny

Winter is when I'm glad I have a Standard the MOST. So much more safe.

can u explain why. I can't think of any thing better but I have never driven a standerd in the winter.

Ben

01-22-2003, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by Lo)2enz0

can u explain why. I can't think of any thing better but I have never driven a standerd in the winter.

Okay, manuals have a clutch to cut all power to the wheels when you get in trouble, autos you dont, you have to fumble for neutral. Secondly if traction is a problem you can always start from a stop in second or even 3rd if you must, and you dont know how many dumbasses I have seen creep forward and hit the car ahead of them because they let off on the brake and were not paying attention.
In a standard you have complete control of putting power to the road. So in winter it is far easier to correct yourself, than it is in an Auto...

92 Teg-B18A

01-22-2003, 06:58 PM

lol, yeah I learned how to drive stick on a 4 spd 87 Civic! That thing definately needed a 5th gear. Once you got on the highway and were goin' 110 the revs were pretty high, but there was no way to tell (by ear only) where the revs were because there wasn't a tach!

civic_stylez

01-22-2003, 06:58 PM

i get heat from everybody!" when are you swapping to 5 speed?" most likely never! its just a personal preferance. the car still drives and does a good job at keeping up to (and sometimes beating!) manuals. i know how to drive both i just enjoy my auto better!

GTS Jeff

01-22-2003, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by Benny

Okay, manuals have a clutch to cut all power to the wheels when you get in trouble, autos you dont, you have to fumble for neutral. Secondly if traction is a problem you can always start from a stop in second or even 3rd if you must, and you dont know how many dumbasses I have seen creep forward and hit the car ahead of them because they let off on the brake and were not paying attention.
In a standard you have complete control of putting power to the road. So in winter it is far easier to correct yourself, than it is in an Auto... benny, what u say is only partially correct. yes, while driving an automatic, u cannot completely cut off power to the wheels via clutching in. however, the beauty of a torque converter is that when u let off the throttle, the torque converter stops delivering power to the wheels, of course, power isnt completely cut off, but there is so little power being sent to the wheels (only enough to make the car creep), that it is quite insignificant in real terms. so basically, letting off the gas in an automatic is really no different than clutching in on a standard.

as for traction problems in first gear, once again, i refer to the lovely torque converter. the torque converter does not deliver full power to the wheels when you are being easy on the gas, so the scenario is like this: an auto revving at 2000rpm is delivering less power to the wheels than a manual at 2000rpm. therefore, gaining traction in 1st gear with an auto is farrrr easier than gaining traction in 1st gear with a manual.

driven properly, auto or manual shouldnt make a difference for winter driving.

as for your third point, id say that the same ppl who would do that in an auto are probably too stupid to drive a manual safely.

Ben

01-22-2003, 07:17 PM

Well, I have my opinions, I hate low end automatics!

GTS Jeff

01-22-2003, 07:24 PM

haha we arent talking about opinions here. just facts. i prefer manual too. but that doesnt make autos suck for winter driving...

Ben

01-22-2003, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by Jeff TYPE R
haha we arent talking about opinions here. just facts. i prefer manual too. but that doesnt make autos suck for winter driving...
For some people it does!

I probably would not have rolled my truck if I had a manual instead of an auto...its like the cellphones causing cancer debate, some people prove one theroy, others prove the other.

szw

01-22-2003, 07:53 PM

Also auto's are too expensive...why would you pay an extra grand for it? If they were the same price I could understand!

rage2

01-22-2003, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by Benny
I probably would not have rolled my truck if I had a manual instead of an auto...

Are you sure man? I heard you were going rather quick for the conditions that day...

Ben

01-22-2003, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by rage2

Are you sure man? I heard you were going rather quick for the conditions that day...

who did you hear that from? Cause I was only doing 60, that and I never recieved any tickets or anything because 3 witnesses confirmed that.

kenny

01-22-2003, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by Benny
Okay, manuals have a clutch to cut all power to the wheels when you get in trouble, autos you dont, you have to fumble for neutral.

Secondly if traction is a problem you can always start from a stop in second or even 3rd if you must, and you dont know how many dumbasses I have seen creep forward and hit the car ahead of them because they let off on the brake and were not paying attention.
In a standard you have complete control of putting power to the road. So in winter it is far easier to correct yourself, than it is in an Auto...

Just as someone not used to driving an auto has to "fumble" for neutral, someone that isn't used to driving a manual tranny may have to fumble to depress the clutch when trouble arrives

Secondly, auto gear boxes can start in second gear for low traction situations as well, or you could just ease off the brake and allow the car to roll then gradually apply throttle. I would have to say auto is far superior when it comes to starting on a slippery surface.

It is only easier to correct yourself in a manual just because that is what you are used to!

So as I value your opinions on this matter, none of your points really backs up your claim that a manual tranny is more safe than an auto tranny in the winter :)

MistaBrent

01-22-2003, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by max_boost

Well thank you for those kind words my friend.....

All I am saying is even little kids get drilled into their head that manual is indeed better than auto.....now where did all this get started?

I like auto because I can do multiple things at the same time but even now I prefer to just concentrate on the roads

I understand, when i first got my car everyone was like wtf u got automatic.

tell them when they get enough money for a car they can decide what they want.

its your money. and yes i love being able to drink a coffee and drive especially Tim Hortons :) In fact im gonna go get one right now.

cheers

2000impreza

01-22-2003, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by rage2

You can get Quaife sequentials for $10-$15K USD depending on model/application.

The XTRAC boxes for the WRC cars start at around $45K USD.

time to start saving up the pennies :eek:

Sky

01-22-2003, 11:03 PM

If I have the $$$ I would rebuild my auto tranny with LevelTen PTS kit and replace old torque converter with their heavy duty high performance torque converter. All these will reduce power loss through tranny by half! :)

Ben

01-23-2003, 12:36 AM

Originally posted by kenny

Just as someone not used to driving an auto has to "fumble" for neutral, someone that isn't used to driving a manual tranny may have to fumble to depress the clutch when trouble arrives

Secondly, auto gear boxes can start in second gear for low traction situations as well, or you could just ease off the brake and allow the car to roll then gradually apply throttle. I would have to say auto is far superior when it comes to starting on a slippery surface.

It is only easier to correct yourself in a manual just because that is what you are used to!

So as I value your opinions on this matter, none of your points really backs up your claim that a manual tranny is more safe than an auto tranny in the winter :)

Alright well then I retract my statement, its all preference, Manual is better for me.

jdmakkord

01-23-2003, 12:39 AM

Originally posted by szw
Also auto's are too expensive...why would you pay an extra grand for it? If they were the same price I could understand!

how often do you replace your clutch compared to your torque converter? The cost of a clutch and flywheel, far out weighs the initial cost of buying an auto.

ecstasy_civic

01-23-2003, 12:50 AM

ya and how many people look after there auto trannies? i work around them everyday, people dont give shit. its more expensive to maintain an automatic than it is to maintain a manual trans. if a clutch and flywheel go, its what 500 bucks? if a torque convertor and rear main seal go $$$$'s of dollars.
just my opinion but autos in older cars are more expensive to maintain.

and you mentioned "inital cost", think about the maitenance of one, it far out weighs the manual

Glowrider

01-23-2003, 12:52 AM

Driving high-hp cars with a standard tranny SUCKS. I'd take a built automatic tranny over a standard tranny any day. Unless they had an SMG (sequential manual gearbox) option. But thats a different story :)

T5_X

01-23-2003, 01:17 AM

i thought manuals were safer in the winter cause you can engine brake, and thus slow down quicker than an auto does, without the risk of locking up your wheels from regular braking. :dunno:

though i guess autos do have those 1 and 2 options to shift into (wouldnt want to be fucking around with those damn column shifter in that situation though, :rofl: )

GTS Jeff

01-23-2003, 02:41 AM

Originally posted by Ranger_X31
i thought manuals were safer in the winter cause you can engine brake, and thus slow down quicker than an auto does, without the risk of locking up your wheels from regular braking. :dunno:

though i guess autos do have those 1 and 2 options to shift into (wouldnt want to be fucking around with those damn column shifter in that situation though, :rofl: ) lol try engine braking on snow sometime.

redline_13000

01-23-2003, 02:43 AM

engine braking will lock up your wheels just as easily as brakes...unless you shifting from 5th to 4th for example when ur going 70 kmh..u wont slow down at all

szw

01-23-2003, 04:03 AM

Oh and don't shift while turning...hehe...

Mikko

01-23-2003, 05:03 AM

engine braking will lock up your wheels just as easily as brakes.

Engine braking will never lock up the wheels. However, they may cause you to lose traction as the wheels will resist rolling freely.

i thought manuals were safer in the winter cause you can engine brake, and thus slow down quicker than an auto does, without the risk of locking up your wheels from regular braking.

On snow, you will most likely stop the fastest with four locked up wheels. Loose surfaces like snow and gravel have a way of building up the grain in front of your wheels when you skid, effectively creating more friction.

Four wheels will always stop you faster than two (so engine brake in a Impreza perhaps? hehehe). Engine braking is only for speed adjustments on trafficated roads, and of course some lift-off oversteer!

Stopping in the winter is down to brakes (ABS, non ABS) and tyres.

..torque converter.. when u let off the throttle, the torque converter stops delivering power to the wheels.. there is so little power being sent to the wheels (only enough to make the car creep)

So there is nearly zero engine brake capabilities in autos? In other words, come off the gas pedal and they just coast for long distances with little slowdown? I have never driven one so I don't know.. ---- could it be possible that you are speaking of the effect in first gear (where the gear ratio is so low) at low rpm's only (the conditions you have when going extremely slow or being stationary)?

I would have to say auto is far superior when it comes to starting on a slippery surface.

I don't know this for certain, Kenny, but according to some driving manuals I have read in the past, they claim that autos are worse for starting in the winter because it is very slow/hard/difficult to quickly change between reverse gear and first gear, when wanting to rock back and fourth (usually only needed when snowed in or stuck somewhere to get momentum).

Otherwise I definitely argue for that manuals are safer for the actual driving. I don't trust the argument from Jeff that Autos have practically no engine braking at all, and what would you yourself do when having to make a fairly sharp turn on something that was iced down? If it's that slippery, any interference can send the rear end of a RWD fishtailing. Oh pretend you didn't have ESP and that stuff either :poosie:

In a FWD I would say the difference is not big, but in a RWD, manual is heaps safer due to the clutch pedal by the left foot.

RickDaTuner

01-23-2003, 08:52 AM

well im my experinces with autos i would say that they do have engine braking cpabilities, its only when you leave the gear selector in "D" that the TC cuts off.
Ever try downshifting in an auto, its just like a standard, you throw it into third and it locks the TC giving you engine Braking.
manuals are the better way to drive i would say, why would you want to be drinking and eating food in your car anyway, thats what restaurants are for, and who says its imposibles to drink a can of soda, while driving a standard also.

Everyone should learn to drive standard the more tasks that you have to do with your car the more it becomes a part of you.
I see the car as being an extention of your body, not a peice of metal that you ride in, if it was like that then I think all you auto praisers should just be driven around by somebody else who is more likely to pay more attention to the road than you are

rage2

01-23-2003, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by RickDaTuner
and who says its imposibles to drink a can of soda, while driving a standard also.

Back in the day, I was able to race someone from a stop in the 944 turbo (manual tranny) while I was drinking a coke and having a smoke. The guy thought I was nuts when I slowed down to wave.

B17a

01-23-2003, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by rage2

Back in the day, I was able to race someone from a stop in the 944 turbo (manual tranny) while I was drinking a coke and having a smoke. The guy thought I was nuts when I slowed down to wave.

WTF? Are you an octopus? How many arms and hands do you have??:rofl: :rofl:

KoRnJD

01-23-2003, 11:11 AM

RiceCake

01-23-2003, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by rage2

Back in the day, I was able to race someone from a stop in the 944 turbo (manual tranny) while I was drinking a coke and having a smoke. The guy thought I was nuts when I slowed down to wave.

*bowdown* we know you got some madd skills rage! :)

GingeRRRBeef

01-23-2003, 05:30 PM

rage2

01-23-2003, 05:55 PM

I've added a cellphone to the equation too, but not racing at the time :D. It's quite simple, cell phone rested on the shoulders + ears, Coke on left hand, smoke on left hand (but use right hand when I need a puff). Shift with right hand. When right hand is busy shifting/smoking, I'd steer with my legs.

MistaBrent

01-23-2003, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by Mikko

Engine braking will never lock up the wheels. However, they may cause you to lose traction as the wheels will resist rolling freely.

On snow, you will most likely stop the fastest with four locked up wheels. Loose surfaces like snow and gravel have a way of building up the grain in front of your wheels when you skid, effectively creating more friction.

Four wheels will always stop you faster than two (so engine brake in a Impreza perhaps? hehehe). Engine braking is only for speed adjustments on trafficated roads, and of course some lift-off oversteer!

Stopping in the winter is down to brakes (ABS, non ABS) and tyres.

So there is nearly zero engine brake capabilities in autos? In other words, come off the gas pedal and they just coast for long distances with little slowdown? I have never driven one so I don't know.. ---- could it be possible that you are speaking of the effect in first gear (where the gear ratio is so low) at low rpm's only (the conditions you have when going extremely slow or being stationary)?

I don't know this for certain, Kenny, but according to some driving manuals I have read in the past, they claim that autos are worse for starting in the winter because it is very slow/hard/difficult to quickly change between reverse gear and first gear, when wanting to rock back and fourth (usually only needed when snowed in or stuck somewhere to get momentum).

Otherwise I definitely argue for that manuals are safer for the actual driving. I don't trust the argument from Jeff that Autos have practically no engine braking at all, and what would you yourself do when having to make a fairly sharp turn on something that was iced down? If it's that slippery, any interference can send the rear end of a RWD fishtailing. Oh pretend you didn't have ESP and that stuff either :poosie:

In a FWD I would say the difference is not big, but in a RWD, manual is heaps safer due to the clutch pedal by the left foot.

I hate to point out... it is TIRES not TYRES.

It isn't hard to spell ..... :)

Mikko

01-23-2003, 07:03 PM

Oh pfffft, don't you know that in British English, it's "Tyres"? :) It's one of those words like "colour", "aluminium" etc.

GTS Jeff

01-23-2003, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by Mikko
Oh pfffft, don't you know that in British English, it's "Tyres"? :) It's one of those words like "colour", "aluminium" etc. colour is canadian too:D

hmmm anyway, this morning i wrote a long post explaining torque converters more...but it wiped it....here we go

GTS Jeff

01-23-2003, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by Mikko
So there is nearly zero engine brake capabilities in autos? In other words, come off the gas pedal and they just coast for long distances with little slowdown? I have never driven one so I don't know.. ---- could it be possible that you are speaking of the effect in first gear (where the gear ratio is so low) at low rpm's only (the conditions you have when going extremely slow or being stationary)? alright, ill try to explain it as clearly as possible. basically, torque converters become more "solid" as engine rpm rises. under low rpms, the torque convertor is more viscous and doesnt really connect the engine to the wheels, whereas under high rpms, the tc connects the engine to the wheels better. this is how an auto can be at a complete stop while staying in gear and not stalling. the point where the tc begins to connect the wheels to the engine is called the stall speed. on most cars, the stall speed is around 2000rpm...so basically, if u let off the gas and the gearing/speed allows the revs to drop below 2000rpm, there is almost no power being transmitted to the wheels. so yes, u can still engine brake an auto if u keep the revs high, but otherwise, not really.

the variable nature of the torque convertor can be seen by the fact that engine rpm can vary a great deal even when using the same gear and driving at the same speed.

<---auto tranny veteran :D

Mikko

01-23-2003, 07:22 PM

lol, flaky transmission. Anyway, then there for sure still is engine braking, and the more the higher the RPM's. When it's very slippery outside, even small forces put upon the tyre scan mess you up, especially when turning. Yeah I noticed that you are the veteran. :) Go look at the Mazda monster in the members section (mine) and tell me if it qualifies as a beastmobile!

GTS Jeff

01-23-2003, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by Mikko
lol, flaky transmission. Anyway, then there for sure still is engine braking, and the more the higher the RPM's. When it's very slippery outside, even small forces put upon the tyre scan mess you up, especially when turning. Yeah I noticed that you are the veteran. :) Go look at the Mazda monster in the members section (mine) and tell me if it qualifies as a beastmobile! heh most auto trannies work this way man. some trannies have a hard mechanical link that kicks in when ure cruising, but thats about it for true engine braking. otherwise, ive never ever found the slight engine braking present in an automatic to pose a threat to winter driving. the tranny automatically selects the highest gear anyway, so engine braking is even less of an issue.

haha i dont think that mazda is that much of a beater...no rust!

Mikko

01-23-2003, 07:33 PM

haha i dont think that mazda is that much of a beater...no rust!

Oo it has rust! It's just..painted over, sort of. Heheheh. Oh and the wheels are a bit uneven, some rim is a bit bent, it's incredibly loud, a bit squeaky, shocks and such are very poor (basically rides harshly but no stability), and to drive in a straight line, one has to aim the steering wheel a bit to the left. Come on, beastmobile status!

Oh and for a nice effect, one rim doesn't match the other three.

:bigpimp:

GTS Jeff

01-23-2003, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by Mikko

Oo it has rust! It's just..painted over, sort of. Heheheh. Oh and the wheels are a bit uneven, some rim is a bit bent, it's incredibly loud, a bit squeaky, shocks and such are very poor (basically rides harshly but no stability), and to drive in a straight line, one has to aim the steering wheel a bit to the left. Come on, beastmobile status!

Oh and for a nice effect, one rim doesn't match the other three.

:bigpimp: woohoo beastmobile! but only if u abuse it as hard as possible