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Well the first big flaw I see in that skid pad number is the tires, those are the same ones my wife has on her Crossover... not exactly symbolic of peak performance. Real tires should help that number a ton.
Odd they tested on those considering the car comes with PS4S in other trims already regardless of “track mode”.
Agree the performance potential of electric cars is pretty big, and just like ICE vehicles, the image of racing sells to a wide number of demographics.
Would be cool to see a "spec/formula" series with the model 3. I'd watch that shit.
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My mind will be blown if Sugar buys a model 3 performance for autox. I don’t think that could be topped.
There's been several spec series with "expensive" cars. Porches for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarphreak
The other objections hold however. You'd need some in-pit charging infrastructure at least.
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I would expect that hydrogen would be a very clean fuel from source to it's end use and the final by products when it's all used up. Gasoline and diesel, yupp dirty at the start and dirty at the end. Same goes for EV's, dirty in the production of the batteries and also much of the electricity used and dirty in the end what with spent battery packs or EV's that are scrapped because of the high cost of replacing said depleted battery pack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarphreak
Hydrogen, I don't know much about where it's sourced from, probably water with large amounts of electricity being used to crack the water molecule. Also, what is needed for storage in a hydrogen powered vehicle - is it a dirty process to build a on-board vehicle based hydrogen based storage system?
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I’m already amazed he made a Tesla thread that isn’t completely shitting on them. Did his account get hacked?Quote:
Originally Posted by rage2
Yes, massive amounts of energy are used to make hydrogen from either water (seawater being common) or from natural gas. If you can have "clean" electricity as the input, then the whole end-to-end system is very clean. If you are using coal or oil, well then, that changes things a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by speedog
Really the cleanest thing would be a nuclear power plant on the ocean cracking sea water into hydrogen. Vancouver would be a natural location for that setup, and a good market for the product. Win-win
A not so bad read from 2009 comparing the various types of energy systems used to power a vehicle - https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/fi...attery_evs.pdf.
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Some numbers: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesl...k-test-review/
So it's unmatched off the line, so it's got a huge 0-60 and 1/4 mile ET advantage. Trap speed shows it runs out of steam up top, and even with the stickiest of street tires, doesn't have the most lateral grip.
Wonder what Tesla specs out for tire width, because if they were smart and spec'd out the widest wheel possible for the skinny tires, one could put some wide rubber on the car and really be AutoX friendly.
Numbers for those that don't know how to read.
0-60: 3.2s
1/4 Mile: [email protected]
Skidpad : 0.94g
Quote:
Originally Posted by speedog
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Test drove the Model 3 Performance today. Fun little car as expected. Tons of power under 100km/h, drop off starts from 100km/h+, instant response, @Mibz was getting pissed off at me randomly slamming on the throttle and thus slamming his head into the headrest. :rofl:
Lateral grip is definitely not where it needs to be, but I firmly believe that's because of how under tired the car is. 235's all around isn't going to have the most lateral grip. It was a colder day today, but from seat of the pants, my RC-F which weighs similar had more outright grip. Throw some wider tires on her and it'd be pretty awesome.
Took it to the limit around some corners, great turn in, reminded me a lot of the GT-R and it's magic traction controlled turn-in. Handles the weight well and settles into the turn quickly. Fronts give up first at the limit, gradual and predictable. Transitions are terrible, the car gets upset instantly transitioning from left to right, but that's the same with every heavy car, and you can't hide that. No track mode yet, so was forced to deal with the stability system, which wasn't very intrusive. Suspension is comfortable. Online comments have some bitching about how stiff the car is, they've clearly never driven a stiffly suspended car. It's sporty, nothing jarring about it at all. Pretty ideal suspension setup for a DD (maybe not for passengers).
Definitely much closer to my ideal value/bang for the buck. I'm still not sold on the interior, terrible seats, bland, minimalist but looks cheap minimalist and not trendy minimalist. To be fair, it is something you quickly forget about when you're driving the car hard. It's just that it's all around you when you're DD'ing the car, and paying $105k for that is something I'd have to get over. Cut $20k off the price and take my money. $85k, I'd be ordering one up. IIRC I had the P100D needing a $70k price reduction for me to buy one, so the Model 3 is definitely getting closer to my ideal bang for the buck. If it was 10 years ago when I only cared about driving experience, I would buy this over the C63S/M3 for sure. It's roughly the same price as both cars today.
I'll let @Mibz chime in on his experience.
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Pricing is pretty much the same, loaded C63S sedan vs Model 3 Performance. I would still choose the C63S today purely for interior aesthetics.
Money aside, I highly doubt you would pick ICE over EV if you drove any Performance Tesla.
No clue on range. Didn’t check.
But but but exhaust burbles....
Sounds like an interesting car, but it would take a lot for me to get over how ugly they are (cant stand either the 3 or the S, and don’t get me started on the S).
Hopefully the Porsche is comparable.
One thing to note is the C63S is also disappointingly undertired as well, is the 3 better or worse in this regard? The lack of grip is pretty much all I can think about when driving it and is the biggest disappointment of the car so no interest in another undertired car.
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I don't really care what a car looks like on the outside. I rarely see it anyways, so no big deal. If an Aztek drove awesome, I'd be all over it.
I do care about the interior because I DD my cars, and I care enough about my surroundings when I'm road tripping, or stuck in traffic. I spend a lot of time inside a car so creature comfort and aesthetics are pretty important to me. When self driving actually happens, it'll matter even more because you'll always be look at your surroundings and not the road.
One interesting thing about the 3, they stopped using Mercedes switchgear, and not sure where it's sourced from now. It looks 10x cheaper than the S, which relied on 2 generation old Mercedes switchgear. The steering wheel on the 3 also felt like a toy, huge downgrade from the feel of the S/X steering wheel.
Surprised you find the C63S undertired (255/285). The Model 3 Performance is 235's all around haha.
245/265 on the sedan...
Also these Dunlop’s are garbage.
I am very used to the chirping of the TCS
Oh, for some reason I thought you had a coupe.
I have to say that being in W205's interior, so far I have not lusted after another interior yet. Usually it get tired of it after 2 years but I don't see any other cars with comparable quality in the same price range.Quote:
Originally Posted by rage2
The only thing I would bitch about is not enough FPS on some of the menu transition screens but I'm sure they fixed that with next gen system in 2019.
Back on topic, long time AutoX'er and instructor runs the Model 3 Performance.
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forum...sla-vs-porsche
@Sugarphreak when you ordering one? lol
“Experienced auto x and performance instructor” but he let his tire pressures jump up to 50psi and wasn’t keeping an eye on them between runs?Quote:
Originally Posted by rage2
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@Sugarphreak
Model 3 Performance price drop. Performance package which has the track mode when it releases is now free. $84,800, autopilot $6600, $91,400 plus tax. At that price I’m getting closer to dealing with the interior haha.
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Cheaper EV's would be awesome, and there's a lot of brainpower working towards that goal. It'll happen
Even if gas went to 3.00/l, I am still not there to spend that money on that blob styling... It needs to be half that price to get people into something so visually unappealing with its appliance like looks.Quote:
Originally Posted by rage2
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I saw my first Model3 at Mec a couple of days ago. Horrendous styling. I don't think that's an opinion thing. That's jsut the objective reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxt
I rode in a new Model S in San Francisco last weekend (for the first time actually). Guy spent the whole time demoing and bragging about the auto-pilot. Nothing could be more boring to me than a car that drives itself. Convenient? Sure. But it's hard for this car enthusiast to get excited about turning the automotive landscape into a bunch of boring electrified transportation pods. Gross.
It really highlted to me how Teslas and EVs aren't for Car Guys (or Enthusiasts). Rather they are for technology enthusiasts who spend time online hunting down the latest iPhone leak.
It's depressing.
Tesla is awful.
Couldn’t have put it better myself.
Disagree with this. I hardly use AP because I live in Winnipeg mostly, and it's not required, but when in LA, it's amazingly useful. Come drive the 405 and tell me AP is boring. It's very useful. Was the guy showing you a car-guy? Doesn't sound like it. Brand new model S and he only showed you AP? Did he have the performance addition?Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster
Everyone has their preference, I like the S and 3. The S looks better than the 3, but I still can live with the 3. Which car really looks perfect these days?
Truth. What kind of enthusiast wants to listen to a bloody electric motor when they hit the throttle? No thanks. I've driven the p100d and yeah, it's fast as fuck but there is zero emotion driving that car. Wouldn't even pick one up if they were $30k.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster
Tesla discussions sound like a cross between vitamix discussions and roomba discussions.
:rofl: that is sig worthyQuote:
Originally Posted by Buster
ftfyQuote:
Originally Posted by Buster
I agree with Busters post. Tesla’s are for people interested in tech, not cars. There is no emotion in driving a Tesla. I also find the styling either extremely bland or extremely weird depending.
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Isn't that why you can have a daily and a weekend car?Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster
Also, the Model S styling is top notch. The Model 3... EH.
Someone who gets it. I think I'm in love #nohomoQuote:
Originally Posted by Buster
I think the best compromise is an AMG with all of the AP bells and whistles. Party when you want, but convenience when you just need to get somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by flipstah
The best comparison to the model 3 is a Nissan GTR. Point and shoot and just gets the job done. But yea, it’s an emotionless experience.
I don’t care if you’re a car guy or not, bumper to bumper traffic you’ll love self driving features. The way I use it in the E, flip it on in rush hour, traffic eases up, take control and enjoy.
Serious question, what does one do while autopilot is on in rush hour traffic? I can't look at my phone because that'll be distracted driving... Maybe nap?!
Considering Tesla owners?
I assume they give themselves road head?
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Typically I’m playing DJ while my kids requests songs. Other times I’ll call my team and have impromptu work meetings.Quote:
Originally Posted by msommers
I don’t rely on it for my whole trip, just the boring parts. Still enjoy the driving when there’s clear roads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarphreak
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https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesl...ersion-review/
Decent improvement, shaved some time off
To be fair, that's probably all tire, going from P4S to Cup 2's.Quote:
Originally Posted by googe
Really smart of Tesla to go this route, great advertising getting a well known driver to do give feedback and show behind the scenes on chassis and stability control tuning. This is basically what happens with random unknown german every time a camo'd manufacturer car hits the ring to dial in drivability and performance.
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It’s pretty quick. On par with a Cayman GT4 and M4 with cup tires.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarphreak
If my E53 is delayed past the new year, I might go for it. $91k loaded is tempting. If Tesla has a lease for it, I’d have one by now. Throw the key(card)s back after 3 years if I end up with a POS.
I have no idea, but they sure spent a lot of time discussing software changes, which made for a cool story. An apples to apples comparison would be nice. If it's all tire, that's quite a piece of fanfiction (and great marketing). A lot of people like that Tesla is pretty much the only car that can continue adding value and features after delivery, so people don't hold off on a purchase due to FOMO from next year's model.Quote:
Originally Posted by rage2
I almost decided to jump in when they announced the price drop and pre-2019 delivery if you buy now, since it'll be the last chance for US residents before the $7500 tax rebate is gone for good. Still not feeling it though. Also probably would have if they had a lease option. Plus it's not like I'm going to track the thing, I just hate having to pay attention in our constant stop and go traffic.
Tesla’s and MB’s systems are so good at self driving in bumper to bumper traffic, if I was in any major US city, it’s a no brainer. The stress level is zero. I don’t even give a fuck if I’m slower than chasing lanes anymore, and that’s Calgary traffic. I have access to a P100D in Bay Area and it’s designed for Cali roads and traffic. Pure stress free. Those little bumper to bumper pockets on the freeway is just frustration driving on my own. The Tesla just self adjusts.Quote:
Originally Posted by googe
My biggest problem with the Tesla is just missing the basics in a lot of areas. No blind spot detection, shitty Bluetooth phone quality, no iPod integration, there’s Bluetooth streaming but zero access to your playlists. I mean fuck, I had that shit in my 2007 OEM systems. As you can see, I’m trying to convince myself I can get over those limitations. Tesla fans just tell me to let the car change lanes using autopilot and use their streaming radio setup, and slap on airpods lol.
A couple of my coworkers have Tesla’s, one being my boss, who randomly struggles on our morning meetings because he does those from his car. Constant small issues that he doesn’t even bother to get serviced because they give him a Chrysler minivan for weeks at a time as a loaner to fix small shit. Just lives with the problems now and only goes in for big ticket fixes lol.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...ov-8-9.133736/
Model 3 Performance sets fastest time at time attack. Disqualified for fuel rule, only unleaded and diesel allowed. :rofl:
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I can't believe people give money to this company. oh well.
https://youtu.be/FSLTNjGI8hw
One thing I've learnt about car buyers that aren't car enthusiasts, these aren't problems at all. Only a small percentage of people care about fit and finish, paint thickness, paint quality, scratches, etc. The rest only care if functionality is broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster
The company I always thought was the worst for panel gaps was Ferrari, every time I have looked at one up close. Terrible.
Actually, it's not as bad as I thought it will be, being built in tents and all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster
sure...but because people buy them doesn't it make it less like schlock.Quote:
Originally Posted by rage2
- - - Updated - - -
We have pictures of these tents. This isn't some rumour or something. They built the things in tents! Now we see bumpers falling off, chucks of whatever in paint, paint damage, general quality horridness. Teslas as cars are barely interesting to me. But the attitude towards the company from its devotees...now that's a fascinating thing to observe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtrema
Go drive a P3D already haha.
I am sure it quick, but that's only half the experience when it comes to driving. Like the difference between downloading music digitally versus buying the vinyl record to enjoy the hiss cracks and pops along with the artwork in the album cover.Quote:
Originally Posted by rage2
It’s not just quick. It’s quick everywhere, in every situation. It’s something no ICE car can accomplish today short of a hyper car with a big hybrid setup. If you like how connected a NA car is, the throttle response, the communication from foot to acceleration out of a corner, the Tesla is 100x better at it. Even the base models (just not as quick). Exception is if your top priority is rowing your own gears every single drive, or the rumblings of a V8, then it’s not for you. For me noise is important, the driving experience easily overcomes the need for noise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxt
Again, drive the P3D and tell me what you really think afterwards. The S and X just handles like ass for it to all work, the P3D gets it right. If Tesla gets all the other shit together I’d be converted.
Really, how long can a Tesla run flat out? Longer than it takes to drink a hot large coffee?
Longer than you can drive one at that pace!
Quote:
Originally Posted by rage2
Its a hideous car and that does take away from total driving experience, it can take the place of the moped in the old what do fat girls and mopeds have in common jokes, but better packaging will be coming at some point.
I understand the advantages of the Ev when it comes to power application, and response. It can be done much better with an EV than it can be done with an ICE for sure. Way back when, my wifes parents neighbor in Japan, who worked in engineering and design for Toyota, took me a for a ride around in a hopped up minivan with that was a developmental hybrid with the PRIUS platform. Yes it had strong linear acceleration and excellent control of power application, but even back then, it was boring as F after a few pulls, and in EV mode, felt dead generally. The ICE gives a vehicle more of a soul because its always running, and always giving some sensation to the driver.
But from driving experience perspective, there is that divergent point that the tech is making apparent, you can be a driver, or, its difficult to describe, a passenger with some input over the general direction of travel. From a lap time perspective., the tech will win out every time, but its diminishing the skill and the experience and I don't really see a lot of value in that. Its like the difference between a radio control car in the backyard to a afx electric slot car track. All this artificial intelligence and augmented reality does shave the numbers and make for impressive stats for the headlines, but for doing HPDE and track days, its that analog-digital choice. The EV will always be on one side of that equation, and having the car do most of the work for me is not really that interesting. Probably still the reason I have a manual milling machine in my shop instead of a CNC as well. Its definetly a new time for cars, but the increasing tech is really drawing the lines between types of enthusiasts now. I use to chuckle at those old guys that would gather around steam engines, but as I get older I understand their position a lot more.
Brillant post! :). Pure enthusiast insightQuote:
Originally Posted by Maxt
Haven't we been doing that for years already with Apple?Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster
shhhh, don't say mean things about Apple, even in jest. People around here will not take kindly to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by speedog
Fair assessment. I’d say with the track mode (I haven’t tried it) you’re more a driver than a passenger. At least that’s what Randy Pobst says. With the safety systems on, yea its a bit of a soulless drive. What’s funny is laptime, the P3D isn’t any faster than a M4. It just feels a lot faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxt
End of the day not trying to convince you guys of anything. Just want to see you guys test drive the car to see what you think. At a minimum it would make for interesting conversation. For me the outright 0-60 does get tiring, but I would never get tired of the way it blasts out of a corner.
To be fair it’s just tiring seeing you post about it in every thread when the opportunity arises.Quote:
Originally Posted by ExtraSlow
I think the most exciting car is the one you want to be driving, that’s what will really get you to elevate strong points and see past flaws.
If a Chiron doesn’t then your crank then you aren’t likely to gaf about how fast it is or how expensive it is.
I am game for having lots of different cars on the road with different levels of capability, looks, practicality. Otherwise it would make car forums pretty boring. Imagine sitting around listening to a bunch of civic owners suck each other off. Gross.
Early beyond in a nutshell :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by killramos