.
.
The Civic will not disappear but it's days of sales domination are coming to an end. Honestly I don't see how anyone could purchase the 2012 Civic over the 2012 Focus unless you were a die hard Honda fan. As far as styling inside and out it's not even a fair comparison the Focus is so far ahead. More standard power and better transmission options in the Focus. Early tests are reporting that the Focus handles better than anything in the current compact market. Throw in that Ford is amongst the top in reliability and you would really have to be a close minded Honda fan to go with the Civic. Not even counting the Focus there are more compelling options such as the Elantra, Cruze and the market is much, much different from when it was at the time of the 5th/6th generations of Civic.Quote:
Originally posted by 01RedDX
The model change from 5th gen to 6th gen was nearly identical as well, and it continued to be a top seller. Even faced with stiffer competition like this Elantra, I don't expect the Civic to disappear from the top bestsellers anytime soon.
As for Japanese car reliability, it's always been spotty for any models built outside of Japan.
I think you are thinking 6th (96-2000) and 7th (2001-2005)? Where they started to take the dbl wishbone out from the front? And the all look mostly identical?Quote:
Originally posted by 01RedDX
The model change from 5th gen to 6th gen was nearly identical as well, and it continued to be a top seller. Even faced with stiffer competition like this Elantra, I don't expect the Civic to disappear from the top bestsellers anytime soon.
As for Japanese car reliability, it's always been spotty for any models built outside of Japan.
Well, there wasn't any competition back then. Elantra is still shit. Protege is no threat and Mazda 3 didn't even show up til end of 7th gen cycle and domestics also posted no threats.
Forgot about the Mazda 3. Since replacing the Protege it's taken a dent out of Civic sales. Heck even Impreza's and Lancers have taken a bite out of the market. It's really crowded right now in the compact segment and the 2012 Civic is in danger of being lost in the crowd.Quote:
Originally posted by Xtrema
I think you are thinking 6th (96-2000) and 7th (2001-2005)? Where they started to take the dbl wishbone out from the front? And the all look mostly identical?
Well, there wasn't any competition back then. Elantra is still shit. Protege is no threat and Mazda 3 didn't even show up til end of 7th gen cycle and domestics also posted no threats.
I don't agree with this. You honestly believe that people don't actually drive their Lincoln's, Buicks, or Jaguars? Let's have a look shall we...Quote:
Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
Also, Lincoln is at the top because they do such a small volume, and most of them get driven like 2,000 km/year by seniors, so naturally they will break down less under such gentle and infrequent use. The one person I know personally with a Lincoln as a daily driver hates it, and it is in the shop constantly. I'm willing to bet Buick and Jaguar are near the top for similar reasons.
Lincoln MKZ's for sale in Calgary: http://www.autotrader.ca/a/pv/Used/L...647%2c&prx=100
Coles notes:
+ Average number of KM's per year is about 18,000 km.
Buick Lucern's (new ones) for sale in Calgary: http://www.autotrader.ca/a/pv/Used/B...rue&srt=3&st=6
Coles notes:
+ Average number of KM's per year is about 22,000 km.
Jaguar XF: http://www.autotrader.ca/a/pv/Used/J...r=20&rprv=True
Coles notes:
+ Average number of KM's per year is 21,000 km.
:)
I didn't say people don't drive them haha, all I'm saying is that I don't think they get driven nearly as much as other brands overall. A little bit of googling suggests the average Buick owner is 65. That supports what I have seen on the roads, for sure. Buick and Lincoln definitely appeal to the older crowds more-so than the younger ones. The Lincoln owner I know is in his 70's. His only buying criteria is that the car be a Lincoln haha. He also drives about 2000km/year. Obviously they aren't all like this, but I think overall, owners of those cars are older and drive less. I don't have time to find a bunch of articles, but I also don't think a few for-sale ads represent any company's customer's driving habits :).Quote:
Originally posted by A790
I don't agree with this. You honestly believe that people don't actually drive their Lincoln's, Buicks, or Jaguars? Let's have a look shall we...
Lincoln MKZ's for sale in Calgary: http://www.autotrader.ca/a/pv/Used/L...2c&prx=100
Coles notes:
+ Average number of KM's per year is about 18,000 km.
Buick Lucern's (new ones) for sale in Calgary: http://www.autotrader.ca/a/pv/Used/B...srt=3&st=6
Coles notes:
+ Average number of KM's per year is about 22,000 km.
Jaguar XF: http://www.autotrader.ca/a/pv/Used/J...&rprv=True
Coles notes:
+ Average number of KM's per year is 21,000 km.
:)
Or to take it another way, low volume usually do better because the sample data is much smaller and the environment they ran in is narrower.
The new Focus looks good, but Honda still has the edge on build quality and resale. Also, people looking for cars who don't know anything usually head straight for Honda or Toyota, just because.Quote:
Originally posted by heavyD
The Civic will not disappear but it's days of sales domination are coming to an end. Honestly I don't see how anyone could purchase the 2012 Civic over the 2012 Focus unless you were a die hard Honda fan. As far as styling inside and out it's not even a fair comparison the Focus is so far ahead. More standard power and better transmission options in the Focus. Early tests are reporting that the Focus handles better than anything in the current compact market. Throw in that Ford is amongst the top in reliability and you would really have to be a close minded Honda fan to go with the Civic. Not even counting the Focus there are more compelling options such as the Elantra, Cruze and the market is much, much different from when it was at the time of the 5th/6th generations of Civic.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I don't think the Focus will be a no-brainer decision for most people shopping in the segment either.
As for the Cruze, if you were after the top-end one, they need to be discounted $5-6k to be competitive IMO. $32k is WAY too much.
also there is something about the preception when one is seen driving a honda/toyota instead of a ford/chevQuote:
Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
The new Focus looks good, but Honda still has the edge on build quality and resale. Also, people looking for cars who don't know anything usually head straight for Honda or Toyota, just because.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I don't think the Focus will be a no-brainer decision for most people shopping in the segment either.
As for the Cruze, if you were after the top-end one, they need to be discounted $5-6k to be competitive IMO. $32k is WAY too much.
this preception will take many many years to change, until then, you will continue to get alot of no dd honda/toyota buyers, but I must admit, ford is doing a good job with their line up.
Really? Perception amongst who? Car fanatics and fanboys? The average person couldn't give two shits if you drive an Accord or a Taurus. I have never, ever seen a person come out of a Honda that I would have thought differently if they got out of a Ford/GM.Quote:
Originally posted by SilverRex
also there is something about the preception when one is seen driving a honda/toyota instead of a ford/chev
I drove the Sonata and I loved it - My mom has an 08 Accent, and its a bag of shit - hate it.
Genesis was a hoot too.
Hyundai and Kia are both heading in the right direction, whereas Honda and Toyota have taken a step back from quality, features and competitive pricing.
well if you have 'that' perception you would have bought a honda/toyota, clearly you are not in that catagory, hence your emotions towards my statement is understandable.Quote:
Originally posted by heavyD
Really? Perception amongst who? Car fanatics and fanboys? The average person couldn't give two shits if you drive an Accord or a Taurus. I have never, ever seen a person come out of a Honda that I would have thought differently if they got out of a Ford/GM.
most people who buy civic/accord and in masses, will continue to believe nothing compares, they walk into dealerships without really cross shopping other competitive models.
I must admit, a decade ago, it was a no brainer and a wise choice given its reliability reputation, but sadly, we are right in the middle of a cross road where nearly every manufacturer has caught up to a degree and some even exceeding it. That is fact, but the perception/reputation will take longer to shake off is what I am saying.
its like having the first impression on someone you just met, even if the individual proves you other wise, the initial imprint goes quite deep. you can almost use a similar saying that goes 'it takes 10 encouraging words to offset 1 negative comment"
it 'will' take some time before things really change, at the moment imports will continue to enjoy higher resell than domestic counterparts. tell me how long we have to wait until we see honda/toyota give 5000-8000 off incentive and ford/gm will not budge. --< thats the type of perception i am talking about.
hondas are way overpriced, i can't beleive people are willing to pay so much more for those than for hyundai.
Things are already changing. The Elantra has been the best selling car in Canada since it was introduced in December. It didn't take long at all for Hyundai to top Honda nor will it take time for other manufacturers to surpass them with more attractive offerings. Consumers turned on domestics in the 90's and they are slowly turning on Honda and Toyota. Years ago many posters at this very site have been lamenting the bland, uninspired vehicles Toyota and Honda started to manufacture at their peak popularity. It seems we were just ahead of the curve and now we are starting to see them losing their grip to the competition. 10-15 years ago when you mentioned Honda or Toyota the first thing people thought of was 'innovative' and 'quality'. For the better part of last decade that had changed to 'boring' and 'overpriced'.Quote:
Originally posted by SilverRex
it 'will' take some time before things really change, at the moment imports will continue to enjoy higher resell than domestic counterparts. tell me how long we have to wait until we see honda/toyota give 5000-8000 off incentive and ford/gm will not budge. --< thats the type of perception i am talking about.
Since "December"? 3 or 4 months? I know you're trying to imply that this means something amazing, but really it doesn't say anything at all concrete. It's off to a decent start --- maybe a combination of decent price + a pretty exterior but it has a quite a way to go yet. At the very least the Elantra, like the Cruze and Focus, is a welcomed 'improved' competitor to stir things up and give us consumers more to consider... whether they are or aren't a serious longterm contender is another question. I for one am looking forward to the Focus and Cruze making their impact.Quote:
Originally posted by heavyD
Things are already changing. The Elantra has been the best selling car in Canada since it was introduced in December....
On a seperate note, another fact of reality people need to accept: the Honda Civic is #1.
Quote:
Globe and Mail - today March 2011
Honda’s Civic took the sales race prize last year selling 57,501 units, followed the Mazda3 at 47,740, the Toyota Corolla with 38,680 and Hyundai’s Elantra with 35,556.
It's not an opinion, it's a fact.
That's against the old gen Elantra, Corolla. But new gen Mazda 3.Quote:
Originally posted by treg50
It's not an opinion, it's a fact.
But I have to say the SE model of Civic is priced and optioned quite aggressively against Elantra.
And I don't doubt the dominance will continue for a year for the reps to build up for Elantra/Focus/Cruz.
Good thing we are discussing 2012 sales or you may have a point. You are going to have to come to grips that your beloved brand is on the decline.Quote:
Originally posted by treg50
It's not an opinion, it's a fact.
also while I dont have the numbers but I bet the resell continues to favor honda/toyota over ford/Hyundai/kiaQuote:
Originally posted by heavyD
Things are already changing. The Elantra has been the best selling car in Canada since it was introduced in December. It didn't take long at all for Hyundai to top Honda nor will it take time for other manufacturers to surpass them with more attractive offerings. Consumers turned on domestics in the 90's and they are slowly turning on Honda and Toyota. Years ago many posters at this very site have been lamenting the bland, uninspired vehicles Toyota and Honda started to manufacture at their peak popularity. It seems we were just ahead of the curve and now we are starting to see them losing their grip to the competition. 10-15 years ago when you mentioned Honda or Toyota the first thing people thought of was 'innovative' and 'quality'. For the better part of last decade that had changed to 'boring' and 'overpriced'.
again the same mentality of how most distinguish the brands remains and will continue to take many years to change. Even if Elantra sales go thru the roof I dont think it can break the backs of japanese imports. The scarcity of recent delay from japan will only cut down further incentive and enhance the resell sectors for all the japanese auto maker.
Dont get me wrong, for the price, the Elantra got me thinking too, beside who to say Honda/Toyota wont fight back.
There be definitely some interesting debate over the coming years.
Quote:
Originally posted by heavyD
we are discussing 2012 sales
My point exactly. Honda, Toyota, Mazda have been doing it, and doing it well for decades. Hyundai's quality is just joining the party now (in the last year or two) in some categories, which is understandable.Quote:
Originally posted by Xtrema
That's against the old gen Elantra, Corolla. But new gen Mazda 3.
But I have to say the SE model of Civic is priced and optioned quite aggressively against Elantra.
And I don't doubt the dominance will continue for a year for the reps to build up for Elantra/Focus/Cruz.
I don't mind comparing current gen vs. last gen vs. next gen. It's an accepted practice of comparing cars for whatever reason, I didn't invent it. Manufacturers take turns benefiting and suffering by it. Discussing a 2012 model's sales from December 2010 to March 2011 makes no difference. It goes up against whatever competition is already there. Those figures are also justly compared to the year before. Sure, it makes Honda, Toyota (minus last years millions of recalls), and Mazda look better than hyundai but what can you do? It shouldn't be a problem for anyone but an ignorant hyundai fanboy. Just because the facts don't suit a hyundai fanboy's argument doesn't mean it's ignorable to everyone else with common sense and concerns about longterm quality.
Let's what happens in 12 months when there's actually 12 months of figures and quality measurements. I'm hoping that the Focus, cruze, and elantra aren't just pretty flashes in the pan and can maintain their quality levels.
I think the Elantra deserves what it's getting.
I generally agree with everything that's being said, but man oh man, that article screams big time corporate propaganda. And whatever the hell happened to PROOF READING... :nut: