Alberta Separatism is starting to go mainstream

[duaner]

‘“Let’s be clear: No one holds veto power over our right to develop our resources. If B.C.and Quebec don’t want to work with us for mutual benefit, then fine. Let’s stop moaning about it and partner with those who will, and tell Ottawa to stay out of our way.”‘

Interesting points by Danielle Smith: https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/co...tional-doormat

[Buster]

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‘“Let’s be clear: No one holds veto power over our right to develop our resources. If B.C.and Quebec don’t want to work with us for mutual benefit, then fine. Let’s stop moaning about it and partner with those who will, and tell Ottawa to stay out of our way.”‘

Interesting points by Danielle Smith: https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/co...tional-doormat

This rhetoric is going to ramp up in a big, big way. Albertans had this adorable notion that somehow a) Scheer was going to get the balance of power and b) that if he did gain power Scheer was going to do something drastic to change our fortunes.

The fast realization that the first wasn't going to happen is probably better than a few years of hope before realizing the second wasn't going to happen.

Onward!

[ZenOps]

Quebec on the path to dumping Canada long before Alberta even holds a referendum on it.

[lasimmon]

A threat of separation being leveraged into more power ala Quebec is far more beneficial than separation.

All actual separation is going to do is make the rest of my working life worse than it would be staying in Canada. Maybe 30-40 years down the road Alberta would thrive but not in the short term.

[04Terminator]

An unusually decent article from the National Post on the stupidity of separatism.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...n-canada-today

[ZenOps]

Yup, declaring independence while being landlocked with borders is literally the most retarded thing ever. Quebec however makes much more sense and do-able.

That being said: The HMS Queen Elizabeth that they just finished off is a Diesel carrier, the British decided to go with older tech compared to nuclear. But of course, to fuel that baby up, needs access to an oceangoing port. US uses about 15 Billion gallons in jet fuel for the aircraft on their carriers (not counting the carriers themselves because many are nuclear)

http://deankmiller.com/aircraft-carr...l-consumption/

[Buster]

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A threat of separation being leveraged into more power ala Quebec is far more beneficial than separation.

All actual separation is going to do is make the rest of my working life worse than it would be staying in Canada. Maybe 30-40 years down the road Alberta would thrive but not in the short term.

Nobody ever promised immediate relief. However, there is no reason separation wouldn't have a positive impact on the middle class in Alberta.

Whether the west likes it or not, it is in a constant negotiation with the RoC for all of the things that it would also need to negotiate under a new framework. Confederation is just a framework, nothing more. The ability to see that there might be other frameworks that function better for the West/Alberta is just thinking without constraints. The bias towards the status quo is simply fear - which is understandable. But it also needs to be recognized as a bias. Some of the people posting in this thread t the moment (whose posts I can't see...looking at your ZenCrazy and Toma), think its appropriate to uproot an entire energy infrastructure because there are better ways to do it. And yet, people clutch their pearls when it is suggested that an arbitrary government structure designed generations ago, and then updated by an idiot in the 1980s is somehow the wisest. A status quo bias is a dangerous thing. I also see it is intellectual laziness and/or a lack of intellectual ability. If you CAN do something better, you SHOULD do something better. And we can do a hell of a lot better at governing the landmass that is currently called Canada.

[ZenOps]

I'm actually not against Alberta separation so much is that if it did someday happen, BC could probably join China with much greater ease. But very doubtful either will happen in my lifetime, so its a complete shoulder shrug for me. Still, its fun to explore alternate future reality paths. The minor alternate reality path that I'd think might be possible is that Buzz decides with last introspect to tell the world it was all a hoax - and nobody even blinks an eye.

If any of you have grandkids though, its not out of the question the Quebec could go at it alone - especially with a newly melted NorthWest passage, it could become an economic powerhouse as a port of trade.

I do figure there is a good chance that either or both of Guam and Hawaii will oust US influence. Hawaii only if their funds are cutoff. Hawaiian welfare recipient gets $35/hour equivalent and the continental USA potatoe farmer gets $200,000 debt per taxpayer - there has to be a breaking point somewhere in there.

[Gman.45]

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Yup, declaring independence while being landlocked with borders is literally the most retarded thing ever. Quebec however makes much more sense and do-able.

That being said: The HMS Queen Elizabeth that they just finished off is a Diesel carrier, the British decided to go with older tech compared to nuclear. But of course, to fuel that baby up, needs access to an oceangoing port. US uses about 15 Billion gallons in jet fuel for the aircraft on their carriers (not counting the carriers themselves because many are nuclear)

http://deankmiller.com/aircraft-carr...l-consumption/

I wish you would just stop posting about anything to do with military tech/procedures/etc. There are advantages and disadvantages to nuclear power in warships. Conventionally powered ships do NOT require a port to refuel - this goes back to things you know nothing about. There is this thing called at sea replenishment, navies have been doing it, oh, since before your grandfather was likely born.

https://navaltoday.com/2018/06/21/hm...ueling-at-sea/

[vengie]

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Yup, declaring independence while being landlocked with borders is literally the most retarded thing ever. Quebec however makes much more sense and do-able.

That being said: The HMS Queen Elizabeth that they just finished off is a Diesel carrier, the British decided to go with older tech compared to nuclear. But of course, to fuel that baby up, needs access to an oceangoing port. US uses about 15 Billion gallons in jet fuel for the aircraft on their carriers (not counting the carriers themselves because many are nuclear)

http://deankmiller.com/aircraft-carr...l-consumption/

Based on the UN Charter on landlocked countries, we would actually have more rights accessing a port than we do now.

[Gman.45]

Also, just because Quebec isn't landlocked doesn't automatically make it's bid for separating better. Quebec without Canada is a Quebec without transfer payments, and that's adios to virtually all of its social programs, not to mention the impacts in other areas that not having our Western $$$ will have.

Nobody ever promised immediate relief. However, there is no reason separation wouldn't have a positive impact on the middle class in Alberta.

Whether the west likes it or not, it is in a constant negotiation with the RoC for all of the things that it would also need to negotiate under a new framework. Confederation is just a framework, nothing more. The ability to see that there might be other frameworks that function better for the West/Alberta is just thinking without constraints. The bias towards the status quo is simply fear - which is understandable. But it also needs to be recognized as a bias. Some of the people posting in this thread t the moment (whose posts I can't see...looking at your ZenCrazy and Toma), think its appropriate to uproot an entire energy infrastructure because there are better ways to do it. And yet, people clutch their pearls when it is suggested that an arbitrary government structure designed generations ago, and then updated by an idiot in the 1980s is somehow the wisest. A status quo bias is a dangerous thing. I also see it is intellectual laziness and/or a lack of intellectual ability. If you CAN do something better, you SHOULD do something better. And we can do a hell of a lot better at governing the landmass that is currently called Canada.

Well said.

[ZenOps]

BTW: I think the general idea is to make the USA scared that they will get less or no oil, so that prices can be raised. Separation would not do that in my opinion, it would have the exact opposite effect. The USA would get complacent that they would have much stronger bargaining against a fractured Canada.

[ZenOps]

Naw. Actions speak louder than words. Alberta has never had a referendum - therefore all this talk is bluff, any poker player knows a bluff when you don't even have the balls to put down a single chip. Talk is cheap, get a few million people to hold up a placard that says "I wanna leave" and you might have something (same with HK). Alberta seperatists got no balls, no chips and definitely not the majority.

Quebec on the other hand pulled out all the chips, actually asked 5 million people and 93% of the populace came out to say half stay, half go.

I am proud to be an *only* $15,000 debt per taxpayer Albertan. Canada might be meh at times, but hell if I ever join the USA. China? Best not ask.

[pheoxs]

So pondering this over lunch. I think this whole Wexit thing is going to hurt Alberta way more than people realize.

At the end of 2018 Sohi announced 1.6 billion from the feds to help the oil and gas industry get to new markets.

- 1 billion available to exporters of all size to help companies invest in new technology
- 500 million for energy diversification financing program for 'higher risk' oil and gas companies dealing with the market uncertainty
- 50 million through natural resources canada clean growth program
- 100 million through innovation, science and economi development canada

Thats on top of buying TMX pipeline itself which was going to be cancelled.

And in the end the liberals got 0 seats for all that but also being publicly attacked for it and now the #wexit movement throwing a tantrum. It all just screams there's no point paying attention to Alberta because they aren't going to ever vote for a left of center party.

[04Terminator]

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So pondering this over lunch. I think this whole Wexit thing is going to hurt Alberta way more than people realize.

At the end of 2018 Sohi announced 1.6 billion from the feds to help the oil and gas industry get to new markets.

- 1 billion available to exporters of all size to help companies invest in new technology
- 500 million for energy diversification financing program for 'higher risk' oil and gas companies dealing with the market uncertainty
- 50 million through natural resources canada clean growth program
- 100 million through innovation, science and economi development canada

Thats on top of buying TMX pipeline itself which was going to be cancelled.

And in the end the liberals got 0 seats for all that but also being publicly attacked for it and now the #wexit movement throwing a tantrum. It all just screams there's no point paying attention to Alberta because they aren't going to ever vote for a left of center party.

Exactly.

This vast conspiracy theory that Trudeau is anti oil is insane, and contrary to his actions.

And separatism is stupid. I mean, really really fucking stupid. It will never happen, but just talking about it will cost us investment

[Maxt]

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So pondering this over lunch. I think this whole Wexit thing is going to hurt Alberta way more than people realize.

At the end of 2018 Sohi announced 1.6 billion from the feds to help the oil and gas industry get to new markets.

- 1 billion available to exporters of all size to help companies invest in new technology
- 500 million for energy diversification financing program for 'higher risk' oil and gas companies dealing with the market uncertainty
- 50 million through natural resources canada clean growth program
- 100 million through innovation, science and economi development canada

Thats on top of buying TMX pipeline itself which was going to be cancelled.

And in the end the liberals got 0 seats for all that but also being publicly attacked for it and now the #wexit movement throwing a tantrum. It all just screams there's no point paying attention to Alberta because they aren't going to ever vote for a left of center party.

Announcing numbers of a program is one thing, actually meeting the requirements of getting the money and the effectiveness of it iare another.

[Buster]

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So pondering this over lunch. I think this whole Wexit thing is going to hurt Alberta way more than people realize.

At the end of 2018 Sohi announced 1.6 billion from the feds to help the oil and gas industry get to new markets.

- 1 billion available to exporters of all size to help companies invest in new technology
- 500 million for energy diversification financing program for 'higher risk' oil and gas companies dealing with the market uncertainty
- 50 million through natural resources canada clean growth program
- 100 million through innovation, science and economi development canada

Thats on top of buying TMX pipeline itself which was going to be cancelled.

And in the end the liberals got 0 seats for all that but also being publicly attacked for it and now the #wexit movement throwing a tantrum. It all just screams there's no point paying attention to Alberta because they aren't going to ever vote for a left of center party.

Let this sink in for a moment.

[Rarasaurus]

[QUOTE=Buster;4825213]Let this sink in for a moment.]


Based on that quick picture, if true..... Alberta averages 15g more a year in GDP per Capita than Canada as a whole. That equates to about 60 billion more the province generates than average Canada yearly. Being promised 1.6B is a drop in the bucket.

[ZenOps]

I'm sure ATB is a completely unbiased source.

Besides, depending on what government you have the time will determine whether or not having extra wealth is actually a good thing, or whether or not you will be dinged right back into line. Eisenhower had a 90% tax rate for the rich in America.

BTW: Is San Jose California GDP really at $270,000? Haven't looked in a while, its starting to go exponential now, no wonder no one can afford to live there.

[freshprince1]

I've been saying this a lot the last week....I'm not a separatist, but what are the incentives for Alberta being part of federation? I'm having a hard time answering this.