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Thread: Get ready for the bailout - Air Transat merger with Air Canada cancelled

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    To be fair, I get worked up every time government actions harm the business I rely on for income too. I can totally empathize.
    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    You realize you are talking to the guy who made his own furniture out of salad bowls right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    That’s a lot of words that could easily be summarized by blaming your lack of sustainable business model on literally everyone but yourself.

    If airlines need a cash injection every 5-10 years to stave off bankruptcy, get shareholders or lenders to provide it. And stay the fuck away form my tax dollars.

    What’s next? You want to bail out oil companies because of their entirely government causes demise? I didn’t think so.
    Ok bud, let me try to distill it down for you even more here;

    The business model is extremely profitable. The nonsensical government "regulation" is what forced them into losing money. That's all. They tried to adapt to the world pandemic, and even after several iterations and modifications of the way the airlines did business, the government kept moving the goal posts. I don't know how much simpler I can possibly make that for you.

    Maybe re-read my small business analogy from above if that still doesn't make sense.

    Either way, the money has been forked over to AC, and to Transat. At least the government is acknowledging their role in all of this I guess.
    ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx Mazda View Post
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    Ok bud, let me try to distill it down for you even more here;

    The business model is extremely profitable. The nonsensical government "regulation" is what forced them into losing money. That's all. They tried to adapt to the world pandemic, and even after several iterations and modifications of the way the airlines did business, the government kept moving the goal posts. I don't know how much simpler I can possibly make that for you.

    Maybe re-read my small business analogy from above if that still doesn't make sense.

    Either way, the money has been forked over to AC, and to Transat. At least the government is acknowledging their role in all of this I guess.
    Are you supportive of the government bailing out every oil company in Canada. Simple question.
    Originally posted by Thales of Miletus

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    guessing who I might be, psychologizing me with your non existent degree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    Are you supportive of the government bailing out every oil company in Canada. Simple question.
    I don't know enough about the situation the oil companies are in right now to give an informed answer.

    But saying that the airline's problem right now is due to their "unsustainable business models" is pretty short-sighted. Look around pal, there are only a handful of businesses out there with "sustainable" business models with all this nonsense going on, by your definition. Sure Amazon and FedEx are doing great, but airlines are only one of many millions of industries affected right now.
    ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx Mazda View Post
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    I don't know enough about the situation the oil companies are in right now to give an informed answer.

    But saying that the airline's problem right now is due to their "unsustainable business models" is pretty short-sighted. Look around pal, there are only a handful of businesses out there with "sustainable" business models with all this nonsense going on, by your definition. Sure Amazon and FedEx are doing great, but airlines are only one of many millions of industries affected right now.
    In a way, the oil industry's suffering is also governments' doing for not approving pipelines in timely manner and implementing carbon tax. There are external factors as well but we are not helping ourselves with a lot of relatively free options.

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    My point is the Airlines aren’t special, and you need to be very careful about where you draw arbitrary lines in the sand on who gets bailed out and who doesn’t.

    The only correct answer, is don’t bail out ANYONE.

    Even better, don’t regulate them to death in the first place. But that isn’t the Canadian way, and that’s why our country sucks the big one to do business in.
    Originally posted by Thales of Miletus

    If you think I have been trying to present myself as intellectually superior, then you truly are a dimwit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yolobimmer View Post
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    guessing who I might be, psychologizing me with your non existent degree.

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    What countries that don't have heavy protectionism and airline regulation should we emulate?

    The entire airline and aerospace industry as we know it is built off government subsidies, contracts, intervention, protectionism and heavy regulation. Doesn't matter what part of the world you're in.

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    Not just airlines. EVERY industry. How many companies have moved for better corporate tax cuts elsewhere? It's not just a Canadian thing. Governments incentive the shit out of places to get companies to move.

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    Kert thinks the only way for a business to be competitive is to have the government get more involved. Quelle surprise.

    Government doesn’t create value, they destroy it. Universally. Government is the problem, not the solution.
    Originally posted by Thales of Miletus

    If you think I have been trying to present myself as intellectually superior, then you truly are a dimwit.
    Originally posted by Toma
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yolobimmer View Post
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    guessing who I might be, psychologizing me with your non existent degree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    That’s a lot of words that could easily be summarized by blaming your lack of sustainable business model on literally everyone but yourself.

    If airlines need a cash injection every 5-10 years to stave off bankruptcy, get shareholders or lenders to provide it. And stay the fuck away form my tax dollars.

    What’s next? You want to bail out oil companies because of their entirely government caused demise? I didn’t think so.
    Awesome.

    Now do oil and gas in Alberta
    Originally posted by InRich
    I think it should be a MINIMUM payment of 20% across the board for any kinda house. Who can't save 20% nowadays, just stop eating out, drive a japanese shit box, and save, its not hard.. have some fucking discipline. Half you niggers shouldn't even be in the houses you live in now.

    we can't all drive X5Ms

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    Quote Originally Posted by 71/454 View Post
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    Awesome.

    Now do oil and gas in Alberta
    Reading hard for you?
    Originally posted by Thales of Miletus

    If you think I have been trying to present myself as intellectually superior, then you truly are a dimwit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yolobimmer View Post
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    guessing who I might be, psychologizing me with your non existent degree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    Reading hard for you?
    O&G get all sorts of tax breaks, like depreciation and writing things off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suntan View Post
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    O&G get all sorts of tax breaks, like depreciation and writing things off.
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    Originally posted by Thales of Miletus

    If you think I have been trying to present myself as intellectually superior, then you truly are a dimwit.
    Originally posted by Toma
    fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yolobimmer View Post
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    guessing who I might be, psychologizing me with your non existent degree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    Reading hard for you?
    No, do it for real.

    Alberta government has forgiven 170 million in taxes owed by oil companies.
    400 million in aid packages to clean up abandoned wells, 300 of that given to oil service companies. Another 600 million in the pot from a federal aid program.

    I think you have selective memory
    Originally posted by InRich
    I think it should be a MINIMUM payment of 20% across the board for any kinda house. Who can't save 20% nowadays, just stop eating out, drive a japanese shit box, and save, its not hard.. have some fucking discipline. Half you niggers shouldn't even be in the houses you live in now.

    we can't all drive X5Ms

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    Quote Originally Posted by 71/454 View Post
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    No, do it for real.

    Alberta government has forgiven 170 million in taxes owed by oil companies.
    400 million in aid packages to clean up abandoned wells, 300 of that given to oil service companies. Another 600 million in the pot from a federal aid program.

    I think you have selective memory
    You forgot to tell everybody how transfer payments really work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    Kert thinks the only way for a business to be competitive is to have the government get more involved. Quelle surprise.

    Government doesn’t create value, they destroy it. Universally. Government is the problem, not the solution.
    So the hundreds of billions that aircraft manufacturers have received in subsidies doesn't create value for the companies? Having competition limited isn't valuable to an airline? You seem to be thinking that if something is bad for consumers, it must also be bad for the business. Which is adorable.

    Let's say Canada eliminates all forms of subsidies and regulation. Do you think that makes WestJet and Air Canada more competitive or less competitive if they stay HQ'd in Canada? U.S. and other international markets are still protected and regulated, can't make inroads there. Now American and European carriers can come in and have the same access without restriction. Why would any business willingly restrict themselves like that with no benefit by keeping its business operations here? Good for consumers, sure. But let's not pretend like unilateral deregulation would help any Canadian airline be more competitive.

    You either keep playing the heavy government intervention game, or you abandon a domestic airline industry. For whatever reason, airlines have found themselves in the same place as agricultural producers. Protected and subsidized and regulated to the tits to protect domestic producers from global competition with the fear of losing (high-paying corporate) jobs. You seem to think this is a somewhat uniquely Canadian phenomenon, when it's just how the airline and aerospace industry functions no matter what country you're in. As long as the U.S. keeps its protectionism and regulation of the airline industry, Canada will keep ours as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 71/454 View Post
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    No, do it for real.

    Alberta government has forgiven 170 million in taxes owed by oil companies.
    400 million in aid packages to clean up abandoned wells, 300 of that given to oil service companies. Another 600 million in the pot from a federal aid program.

    I think you have selective memory
    170 million hasn’t been forgiven, it’s owed just as it always has been. However collecting money from bankrupt companies sucks, municipalities wanting property taxes are in line just like everyone else. That’s not an oil and gas specific problem, no matter what CBC tells you.

    If the government wants to give loans to the orphan well association that’s their prerogative, the fact that service companies are contracted to do the work is irrelevant, they want something done and someone has to do it. That’s basically the government paying to clean up messes they are already ultimately responsible for. If they would rather give the OWA a repayable loan than just let industry handle premiums that’s just them moving money around in a giant fugazi. Ultimately this has next to no effect on the bottom line of an operating oil company and is far from giving AC free money.

    $600 million from the feds? You mean that program that every business in the country participated in? The one that Air Canada alone took $500 million from? You are right Trudeau sure is an idiot wasting billions of dollars propping up companies who aren’t in financial trouble. But again, he doesn’t have the smarts to do anything but throw money at the problem.
    Last edited by killramos; 04-30-2021 at 02:17 PM.
    Originally posted by Thales of Miletus

    If you think I have been trying to present myself as intellectually superior, then you truly are a dimwit.
    Originally posted by Toma
    fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yolobimmer View Post
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    guessing who I might be, psychologizing me with your non existent degree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kertejud2 View Post
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    So the hundreds of billions that aircraft manufacturers have received in subsidies doesn't create value for the companies? Having competition limited isn't valuable to an airline? You seem to be thinking that if something is bad for consumers, it must also be bad for the business. Which is adorable.

    Let's say Canada eliminates all forms of subsidies and regulation. Do you think that makes WestJet and Air Canada more competitive or less competitive if they stay HQ'd in Canada? U.S. and other international markets are still protected and regulated, can't make inroads there. Now American and European carriers can come in and have the same access without restriction. Why would any business willingly restrict themselves like that with no benefit by keeping its business operations here? Good for consumers, sure. But let's not pretend like unilateral deregulation would help any Canadian airline be more competitive.

    You either keep playing the heavy government intervention game, or you abandon a domestic airline industry. For whatever reason, airlines have found themselves in the same place as agricultural producers. Protected and subsidized and regulated to the tits to protect domestic producers from global competition with the fear of losing (high-paying corporate) jobs. You seem to think this is a somewhat uniquely Canadian phenomenon, when it's just how the airline and aerospace industry functions no matter what country you're in. As long as the U.S. keeps its protectionism and regulation of the airline industry, Canada will keep ours as well.
    You have a very hard time understanding the concept of creating value, versus moving it around and destroying a little bit of value with every stroke of a pen and covering it up with every increasing taxation.
    Originally posted by Thales of Miletus

    If you think I have been trying to present myself as intellectually superior, then you truly are a dimwit.
    Originally posted by Toma
    fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yolobimmer View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    guessing who I might be, psychologizing me with your non existent degree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    170 million hasn’t been forgiven, it’s owed just as it always has been. However collecting money from bankrupt companies sucks, municipalities wanting property taxes are in line just like everyone else. That’s not an oil and gas specific problem, no matter what CBC tells you.

    If the government wants to give loans to the orphan well association that’s their prerogative, the fact that service companies are contracted to do the work is irrelevant, they want something done and someone has to do it. That’s basically the government paying to clean up messes they are already ultimately responsible for. If they would rather give the OWA a repayable loan than just let industry handle premiums that’s just them moving money around in a giant fugazi. Ultimately this has next to no effect on the bottom line of an operating oil company and is far from giving AC free money.

    $600 million from the feds? You mean that program that every business in the country participated in? The one that Air Canada alone took $500 million from? You are right Trudeau sure is an idiot wasting billions of dollars propping up companies who aren’t in financial trouble. But again, he doesn’t have the smarts to do anything but throw money at the problem.
    The federal aid program to oil and gas is 1.72 billion, Albertas share is 1 billion. Most of that money is given out in grants, not loans.

    How is this different than giving money to airlines? Do we need Michelle Rempel to stand in the HOC and say fart again?
    Originally posted by InRich
    I think it should be a MINIMUM payment of 20% across the board for any kinda house. Who can't save 20% nowadays, just stop eating out, drive a japanese shit box, and save, its not hard.. have some fucking discipline. Half you niggers shouldn't even be in the houses you live in now.

    we can't all drive X5Ms

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    What you call “grants” is the government paying companies to do work they want done. Grant is an interesting word for that.

    Not sure how you can’t see the difference between paying someone to do a job, sorry granting someone to do a job, and writing a blank check to air Canada to… I dunno keep their shareholders solvent?
    Originally posted by Thales of Miletus

    If you think I have been trying to present myself as intellectually superior, then you truly are a dimwit.
    Originally posted by Toma
    fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yolobimmer View Post
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    guessing who I might be, psychologizing me with your non existent degree.

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