Alec Baldwin the murderer.

[killramos]

A lot of armchair QB’s who have some delusional ideas about how pretend movies are made on here lol.

It’s an industrial accident. And I bet half of you do dumber shit at work against safety policies every day.

[Xtrema]

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The Assistant Director Dave Halls is not getting the airtime he deserves. Set safety is a huge part of their job, and rumour is he told Baldwin the gun was cold

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/11/a...t-lawsuit.html
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...in-1235286210/

They were all suing each other before this escalation. Heard Halls got a deal from the DA on this manslaughter case to protect himself.

[DonJuan]

You mean like a saftey course or something before owning a firearm? That sounds like socialism to meee; Shall not be infringeEEEEE; REEEEEEE!

[ExtraSlow]

We need to ban movies.

[AndyL]

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there must be a lot of people here who don't own guns. Who the hell points a gun at someone and pulls the trigger? To get a license here they hammer home gun safety the entire time before you can get a pal. Pointing an empty gun at someone is never acceptable. Grabbing a gun without looking to see if it's loaded Is never okay. Lose sight of the gun you just had? Check it again to make sure its not loaded.

You're equating real world to movie sets - they're not the same.

Armorer is 100% responsible end of story - you're not allowed to clear the firearm the armorer hands you.

Kind of why I asked is Baldwin on trial as the holder of the firearm or on trial in another capacity.

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It’s an industrial accident. And I bet half of you do dumber shit at work against safety policies every day.

Were you spying on me today? In my defense fall protection wouldn't have saved me from the ground 3' away

[SJW]

[Gman.45]

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I get the sarcasm, but at some point a reasonable adult should have a second thought about pointing a gun at someone.

Now, IF he specifically asked the armorer if it was safe prior to the incident as he is not a gun expert and the armourer is the paid on site expert, then he gets off with a slap on his armored wrist.

And that's exactly what happened according to the interviews with detectives that I've watched. Normally you would be correct DonJuan, however standard procedures are in place on set, and having the armorer declare a weapon cold when handing it to an actor means that there is NO blanks in the firearm, and certainly no live rounds. Baldwin was pointing it at the camera (and hence the 2 people that were hit as they are behind that camera) in order to frame a shot during a rehearsal. The firearm (single action colt .45lc replica of some kind) was in fact declared cold according to statements from multiple people there including Baldwin, so there is NO reason for him to think that there is a live round in it. This then allows actors to point the firearm in what would normally be an unsafe manner, due to the stringent rules and procedures on sets, so that the camera can get the shots that viewers all love to watch in their shows/films.

Watch the interview with Baldwin right after the incident with the 2 detectives. They didn't tell him that Hutchins had died until the very end of their interview/questioning. His reaction is telling, he was shocked and hurt by it, as he thought she was just injured, and not fatally wounded.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpl0Ol-N-PU


What people don't seem to grasp is that there is a different set of safety rules on sets due to the nature of the business. That's why there are very strict and standard rules and procedures in place. What happened was a result of somebody in the chain breaking those rules (by having live rounds there), and that is NOT Baldwin's fault. Don't get me wrong, I can't stand Baldwin, but I will defend him here as this was not his fault IMO, and they don't have a chance of getting a conviction in terms of Alec Baldwin, IMO. Somebody is guilty of either extreme negligence, or intentionally planting live rounds (that quite possibly looked just like the dummy rounds, again, from a company that only makes dummy rounds for the specific reason of safety).

During the interviews I've watched, 2 people mentioned that the round that was discharged had the same company name/mark on it as the other fake/cold dummy rounds. That company doesn't even manufacture live ammunition. So there's that little tidbit to chew on. There are usually a couple types of rounds on set, blanks (for obvious reasons), and dummy rounds, which are rounds that look real ammunition, but aren't. This is for realism in shots, especially revolvers, as if the audience looks into a cylinder and sees the revolver is empty they'll bitch about realism, hence the dummies. These dummy rounds have a holed drilled through the case, as well as some large BBs inside the case where the powder charge normally resides, so that they can be shaken and give an auditory confirmation that they are dummy rounds, in addition to the visual drilled hole in the cartridge case.

Somebody in the chain of custody of the weapons either fucked up big time, or somebody who wanted an accident to happen planted live rounds that looked just like the dummies/blanks intentionally. If the investigators in the case are worth a shit, we may find out during the trials. I doubt it though.

[gwill]

its a bit interesting to see people say Baldwin has no fault in the death. The prosecutors clearly think otherwise.

Should be an interesting trial to follow to see if the charges hold up or not.

[suntan]

Do we not know what the manslaughter charge is?

[Gman.45]

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its a bit interesting to see people say Baldwin has no fault in the death. The prosecutors clearly think otherwise.

Should be an interesting trial to follow to see if the charges hold up or not.

Cleary Baldwin has some responsibility, he was holding the firearm and pressed the trigger after all. Who knows if the politics regarding the prosecutors office and beyond is playing a part, and so on. Again, I'm no fan of Baldwin, in fact you could say I'm an anti-fan of his past public behavior, and I have to admit part of me is happy to see him squirm a bit, but over this, I just don't see how he's at fault(unless other factors come in to play regarding his responsibility re hiring the companies involved, more below on that), having followed ALL of the rules used on sets.

The guy who killed Brandon Lee (actor Michael Masse) was never charged with manslaughter, or charged with anything for that matter, and he did the exact same thing Baldwin did, accepted a firearm that was supposed to be loaded only with blanks, which had a real projectile lodged in its barrel from a past filming/use, which flew out of the barrel from the pressure of the blank round, and gut shot Brandon Lee. So there is a precedent of sorts here.

Where I think Baldwin may be partly held responsible, is if it's found he hired a tv/film firearms/props team on the "cheap" intentionally, and that corners were being cut so far as the established prop-firearms safety rules are concerned. Those are charges that IMO could stick given supporting evidence, but if the DA is just charging Baldwin with manslaughter because he's the one that held the firearm and pressed the trigger, they'll never get a conviction IMO.

Put yourself in an actor's position - you have no experience with firearms, yet it's your job to point this supposedly safe firearm at other actors, the camera (and it's crew/directors/etc), and press the trigger. It's your JOB to do this, and you are told (or already know) that there are established safety protocols in place and used throughout the industry to prevent accidents. Then all of a sudden your firearm spits out a live round and kills someone.

I know if it was me (and I'll assume most of you), if I was in such a position, I'd be quickly jacking out every round from that single action Colt (and any other firearm/magazine), and personally visually and auditorily inspecting each and every round - twice - before ever pointing/pressing towards other actors/crew. It needs to be said again though, most actors are complete newbies when it comes to anything firearms related.

One last thing - the armorer strikes me as being a "omg like totally" girl who likes to beak off about her supposed skill and expertise regarding firearms, but in reality was far, far out of her depth running a production/set on her own. Her father has a great rep in that business, which no doubt helped her get contracts, but from what I've seen of her in interviews and her own social accounts before they were taken down, I wouldn't trust her with a nerf gun.

Examples: One quote from her here -

"I think loading blanks was the scariest thing to me because I was like, oh, I don't know anything about it," she said.

Uh...wtf.

Also, a quote from the key grip on her previous production (her 1st, Rust was her 2nd) -

Stu Brumbaugh, who worked as a key grip on "The Old Way," told The Wrap that Hannah Gutierrez-Reed's behavior caused the film's star Nicolas Cage to scream at her and storm off set after she fired a gun near the cast and crew for the second time in three days without warning.

"Make an announcement, you just blew my fucking eardrums out," Cage yelled before walking off the set, Brumbaugh told the publication.

Right, so she had not one but TWO negligent discharges on her previous set. Ridiculous, and unforgivable IMO in the business of professional firearms use of any kind.

[msommers]

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its a bit interesting to see people say Baldwin has no fault in the death. The prosecutors clearly think otherwise.

Should be an interesting trial to follow to see if the charges hold up or not.

It's literally their job to find fault, regardless of what they actually think

[rage2]

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having the armorer declare a weapon cold when handing it to an actor means that there is NO blanks in the firearm, and certainly no live rounds.

I don’t think the armorer was even there at the time. The assistant director called the gun cold and gave it to Baldwin. The AD copped a plea deal. Baldwin shouldn’t have taken the gun from the AD without the armorer, nor should he have hired such a shit show crew. He’s being charged for one or both of those reasons.

[gwill]

The new York times had a good article discussing how messed up the set was regarding safety issues and multiple mis fires with the guns before someone was killed.

They also said Baldwin was charged partly due to firing the gun but also due to him being a producer and has responsibility to the safety of those on set.

[lilmira]

His best defense is to play dumb and shift the responsibility to others who know better than him. He is good at blaming others but I don't know if he can admit that others know more than him. The prosecutor should poke his ego and just let him talk. Did you order the code red?

[gwill]

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His best defense is to play dumb and shift the responsibility to others who know better than him. He is good at blaming others but I don't know if he can admit that others know more than him. The prosecutor should poke his ego and just let him talk. Did you order the code red?

the I didn't pull the trigger defence worked for the guy in Saskatchewan. Only issue with that is the prosecutors saying he's been charges as a producer as well as the shooter.

[Gman.45]

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I don’t think the armorer was even there at the time. The assistant director called the gun cold and gave it to Baldwin. The AD copped a plea deal. Baldwin shouldn’t have taken the gun from the AD without the armorer, nor should he have hired such a shit show crew. He’s being charged for one or both of those reasons.

No, the head armorer wasn't there, that is correct, but the AD can often be empowered on sets by the head armorer/show runner to act as an armorer. Think how many tv shows/films have multiple units running simultaneously, obviously in different locations, where having multiple armorers or others trained and appointed as assistant armorers, would be necessary. Or just if the head armorer is MIA for umpteen different reasons. I'm not saying this was the case on the Rust set, I haven't read anything yay or nay on this subject, but it'll come out at trial, if there is one, and if the investigation was well done.

I said the same regarding Baldwin hiring an armorer that was probably very cheap, and obviously shit - that this was IMO the best and really only reason to charge him. IF it turns out the AD wasn't empowered to handle firearms, there is that too. The AD taking a plea doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't empowered/appointed to handle weapons on set, as he could still be held as responsible in the incident despite so empowered, as he after all handed Baldwin a declared cold weapon that obviously wasn't cold.

There have been a few Hollywood types espousing the virtues of this "up and coming" bimbo armorer, but I tend to believe the 2 witnesses from her previous and first job, on Nic Cage's recent Western debacle.

edit - Baldwin would be smart to ditch the whole "didn't press the trigger" BS right now. The prosecutor will obviously bring up the FBI's testing of the revolver, not to mention she/he could just show the jury themselves by cocking/clicking the firearm in court, proving that it functions properly. From an interview Baldwin did with Cuomo on CNN, he suggested that he was fanning the revolver when it discharged. Quote -

Baldwin started discussing the process of “fanning” a gun. Baldwin didn’t directly state — but he did suggest — that he was engaged in that process when the fatal wound occurred.

“If you pull the hammer back, and you don’t lock the hammer — if you pull the hammer back pretty far — in old Western movies you’d see someone ‘fan’ the hammer of the gun. The hammer didn’t lock. You pulled it back to an extent where it would fire the bullet without you pulling the trigger, without you locking the hammer.”

Ok, back to the whole Hollywood weirdos generally have no idea how firearms work theory - while perhaps there is an argument that you aren't technically pressing the trigger of a single action revolver while fanning it, you DO have to have the trigger held down in order for the hammer to drop after the fourth click/3rd hammer position/full cock while fanning it. So there's that.

[DonJuan]

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... The prosecutor will obviously bring up the FBI's testing of the revolver, not to mention she/he could just show the jury themselves by cocking/clicking the firearm in court, proving that it functions properly...

Anyone want to give me odds on the gun going off in court? $20 Bet.

The single action aspect is also an interesting one. Was the gun handed to him fully cocked? This may save Baldwin.

I have since changed position to on side with Gman.45. Baldwin (personal opinion aside) walks and all blame falls to the armourer.
IF however she was unqualified for the job and Baldwin knew it (difficult to prove), only way he gets some of the blame. If her resume says anything about being an armouer previously, Baldwin walks and makes a Netflix special.

[ExtraSlow]

I don't know much about the movie business, but IF there is liability / culpability for a producer, I'm not sure how you'd pin that on Alec Baldwin, when this movie has 12 producers. In my limited understanding, the "Line Producer" is the one actually mkind day-to-day decisions on the set.


I'm also not a lawyer, but I don't think you can take a basket of "probably" items to make a verdict. you need one "for sure", don't you?

[suntan]

Beyond a reasonable doubt is the usual bar to clear.

A producer for a movie don't do much, they're often responsible for raising funds if they're an executive producer, the producer is often responsible for setting budget.

So maybe something there, but I mean this wasn't this chick's first go round.

[DonJuan]

If I was held responsible for what my subordinates did that I didn't hire, I'd probably be in jail too.