YYC Airport delays update?

[benyl]

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I also use flight aware when booking flights to see historically how often a flight I want gets delayed. FA has like a few weeks of history, so I try to choose flights not as susceptible to delays.

Flightaware has improved. forget flight radar. lol

[Maxx Mazda]

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Ah yes. Very good point and thanks so much.

So... What if (and it's a big "if") the airlines had access to some sort of data measurement tool(s) and accompanying trends of that data that could maybe, just possibly give them an inclination that de-icing may have been a predictable event with a reasonable degree of confidence? Imagine updating some sort of schedule based upon the knowledge obtained by the analysis of this incredible data.

When we solve this incredibly complex problem, we know we have time to change anthem lyrics and bathroom signs.

Of course the airlines and crew know when a plane needs to be deiced.

The deicing in YYC is done by a third party provider. About 30 minutes prior to push, the pilots need to call the airport deice co-coordinator on the radio. They are then provided a slot time in the deice bay. This is completely up to the deice company, and has nothing to do with the airline. All airlines use the same provider, so this is not a company specific issue.

Air Canada and Jazz used to use their own in-house crews to deice their aircraft at the gate, the US carriers used ATS or Servisair. Back in 2012 or so, the YYC airport authority wanted to build a new central deice facility in conjunction with the new terminal expansion. They were able to subsidize the cost by allowing one single third party deice provider (AeroMAG 2000) - a Montreal based company - Killramos will love that tidbit - to move in and take over as the sole provider of deicing at YYC.

Because they are the sole provider, often times, the quality and speed of the operation can suffer.

So, it's not that the airlines don't know that they need to deice, it's the ineptitude of the service provider that they are forced into using by the Calgary Airport Authority. Isn't it nice to see that $45 airport improvement fee that you pay on each ticket going to good use?

[ThePenIsMightier]

What percentage of planes require de-icing in July?

What percentage of planes require de-icing when it's <-20°C?


Does it make me psychic if I can guess within +/-20% on those two above questions?

[Maxx Mazda]

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What percentage of planes require de-icing in July?

What percentage of planes require de-icing when it's <-20°C?


Does it make me psychic if I can guess within +/-20% on those two above questions?

Generally, the colder it is, as long as it's not snowing, the lower the probability of a deice being needed. It's when you have a super humid day, that's right around 2-3 degrees where everything will need a quick spray. Planes sit up at altitude and the fuel in the wings remains around -40 or so. When they land, if the humidity is high, even though the temp may even be well above zero, frost will form on the cold wings, requiring a spray. Deicing has happened in July, actually every month of the year in Calgary it is a possibility.

It's actually surprisingly easy to predict when a deice will be required, and they build extra time into the flight plans for this. Scheduled departure times are never moved up (earlier.)

[ThePenIsMightier]

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....

1.) It's actually surprisingly easy to predict when a deice will be required


2.) and they build extra time into the flight plans for this.

#1 is the truest statement in the world, ever.

#2 seems to be abundantly false (though I have not been on an AC plane in >10 years.)
That's my sore spot. It's obvious and everyone should know, but suddenly it's this "giant surprise" that cascades golden showers of delays all over everyone.

[spike98]

Getting back on track here...

Is there anything that can be done when WJ denies compensation for a delayed flight when they lie about the reason for delay? I have screenshots from WJ indicating ground crew constraints and during the delay the WJ lady said straight up it they were waiting on ground crew. However WJ is saying it was a safety issue when they deny the claim. Its horseshit that they can get away with it and i want to fight it on principal now.

[killramos]

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Getting back on track here...

Is there anything that can be done when WJ denies compensation for a delayed flight when they lie about the reason for delay? I have screenshots from WJ indicating ground crew constraints and during the delay the WJ lady said straight up it they were waiting on ground crew. However WJ is saying it was a safety issue when they deny the claim. Its horseshit that they can get away with it and i want to fight it on principal now.

Have you considered sueing them?

I think at some point someone needs to sue the airlines more.

[Maxx Mazda]

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#1 is the truest statement in the world, ever.

#2 seems to be abundantly false (though I have not been on an AC plane in >10 years.)
That's my sore spot. It's obvious and everyone should know, but suddenly it's this "giant surprise" that cascades golden showers of delays all over everyone.

You're not getting it...

Departure times are never moved earlier. That's what flights are based on, you're attempting to work backwards from the arrival time, which is next to impossible to do. There are way too many factors at play. If a flight has good tailwinds in the air, are they supposed to fly slower, or enter a hold at the destination before landing just so the arrival is exactly on time? What about a wind shift and runway change at the arrival airport that now means an extra 6 minutes in the air? Should the departure time be moved 6 minutes earlier? What fantasy world are you living in?

[Xtrema]

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Getting back on track here...

Is there anything that can be done when WJ denies compensation for a delayed flight when they lie about the reason for delay? I have screenshots from WJ indicating ground crew constraints and during the delay the WJ lady said straight up it they were waiting on ground crew. However WJ is saying it was a safety issue when they deny the claim. Its horseshit that they can get away with it and i want to fight it on principal now.

Everything is a safety issue now. AC pulls the same stunts.

[Maxx Mazda]

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Have you considered sueing them?

I think at some point someone needs to sue the airlines more.

Good idea, Gabor.

[spike98]

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Have you considered sueing them?

I think at some point someone needs to sue the airlines more.

I would love too but I dont have THAT much spare time on my hands for no real loss. This is what i suspect is everyone else's problem as well. Delays suck but at the end of the day, we got home safely. I just think its bullshit that the airline can just lie to you and skirt the law in the process but I guess this is canada after all. We love this sort of corporate shenanigans.

What is interesting is in my research there was someone that used a EU portal through WJ to make the claim and his previously denied CA claim got through. I guess EU laws are much more strict or they at least audit the reasons for delay.

[killramos]

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Good idea, Gabor.

It is a good idea. If they keep trying to weasel their way out of compensating people for their fuck ups a lawsuit is how is is going to get sorted out. I’m shocked Sunwing hasn’t seen a class action yet.

End of the day if the way they are operating their business is unjustly costing people money and time there is a case for damages well in excess of the free lunch vouchers people seem contend to waive their rights for.

End of the day these clowns how airlines need to reestablish their cost of doing business. Gonna suck for the poors.

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I would love too but I dont have THAT much spare time on my hands for no real loss. This is what i suspect is everyone else's problem as well. Delays suck but at the end of the day, we got home safely. I just think its bullshit that the airline can just lie to you and skirt the law in the process but I guess this is canada after all. We love this sort of corporate shenanigans.

What is interesting is in my research there was someone that used a EU portal through WJ to make the claim and his previously denied CA claim got through. I guess EU laws are much more strict or they at least audit the reasons for delay.

This is why class actions and contingent compensation are a thing

[ThePenIsMightier]

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You're not getting it...

Departure times are never moved earlier. That's what flights are based on, you're attempting to work backwards from the arrival time, which is next to impossible to do. There are way too many factors at play. If a flight has good tailwinds in the air, are they supposed to fly slower, or enter a hold at the destination before landing just so the arrival is exactly on time? What about a wind shift and runway change at the arrival airport that now means an extra 6 minutes in the air? Should the departure time be moved 6 minutes earlier? What fantasy world are you living in?

Please quote where I asked for "departure times to get moved earlier".

My "fantasy world" is for schedules to be updated based on information that is readily available in a reasonable amount of time such that the affected passengers and staff are aware of reality and have an opportunity to plan for it.
If you are unable to differentiate between that and shaving increments of minutes off due to tailwinds in real time, then I guess some airline companies aren't open to this fantasy.

TPiM: It's easy to predict, well in advance that de-icing will be needed.

MaxxM: It's easy to predict, well in advance that de-icing will be needed.

TPiM: since it's easy, the schedules should be updated to help passengers, staff and ground crews plan better.

MaxxM: you are living in a fantasy land. Your idea is so crazy that I RoFL.

[ExtraSlow]

TPIM, there is a chance that your thoughts and ideas are excellent, but you may be explaining yourself poorly.

[ThePenIsMightier]

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TPIM, there is a chance that your thoughts and ideas are excellent, but you may be explaining yourself poorly.

Oh, I'm almost positive that's it. My head is a bit foggy still. Likely from CoVid and medications that expired in 2018. Wow! I must never take medicine!
That's why I'm not turning CAPS LOCK on.

The schedule is there. The information to update the schedule is there. Put the schedule in a room with the information, give them a bottle of wine, light a candle and get them to smash together.
The schedule leaves that room updated and alert.

Don't keep the update a secret like both I and The Penguin have described.

[Maxx Mazda]

As I understand it, you aren’t arguing that the departure time should be moved up to account for things like deicing, correct?

You are wanting the arrival time to be revised so that your sisters ride didn’t need to wait the extra 15 minutes at the pickup airport, correct?

That is already the case, which is why I’m confused as to what you’re asking for. The arrival time is based on the wheels up time, plus the planned flight time. The time when the flight pushes back from the gate is the scheduled departure time. The difference between these two can be as much as 30-60 minutes, depending on the reason for the delay. In winter operations, there is a set time built in, depending on departure station, for this exact reason. If, for some reason, things take longer, the new arrival time is updated electronically as soon as the aircraft is airborne. It knows the flight planned air time for that exact day, taking into account winds, etc. and will update the respective app accordingly. Arrivals within +15 and -5 minutes are considered by IATA to be “on time” and the flight will show as such, however using any of the airlines apps will still show the exact arrival time, down to the minute.

For example, let’s say a flight departs YYC at 13:00, to arrive in the same time zone at 15:30. It could very well only have a 90 minute air time. It could be accounting for 45 minutes in YYC for deice, and another 15 on the arrival end for taxi if it’s a large station. If the flight pushes on time at 13:00, but deicing takes a full hour because YYC sucks balls, the arrival time won’t be updated until the aircraft actually takes off at 14:00, and will then show a 15:45 arrival.

Make sense?

[Maxx Mazda]

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It is a good idea. If they keep trying to weasel their way out of compensating people for their fuck ups a lawsuit is how is is going to get sorted out. I’m shocked Sunwing hasn’t seen a class action yet.

End of the day if the way they are operating their business is unjustly costing people money and time there is a case for damages well in excess of the free lunch vouchers people seem contend to waive their rights for.

End of the day these clowns how airlines need to reestablish their cost of doing business. Gonna suck for the poors.

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This is why class actions and contingent compensation are a thing

Not saying it isn’t a good idea. But it’s easy to say “you gotta sue!!” Like creepy uncle Gabor does, when you’re not the one ponying up the tens of thousands in legal fees just to retain a lawyer. The APPR is the biggest joke around, but that’s just how it is. People need to vote with their wallets, it’s a free market economy. Sort of.

[spike98]

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Not saying it isn’t a good idea. But it’s easy to say “you gotta sue!!” Like creepy uncle Gabor does, when you’re not the one ponying up the tens of thousands in legal fees just to retain a lawyer. The APPR is the biggest joke around, but that’s just how it is. People need to vote with their wallets, it’s a free market economy. Sort of.

There are a few things that AREN'T free market and air travel is one of them. Just bellow telcom and slightly above cheese.

[ExtraSlow]

That's why euro cheese is better.

[RX_EVOLV]

When we came back from Hawaii a few weeks ago flying westjet, our flight was delayed from 12am to 2am, then eventually to 9am. Luckily we had already booked an extra night of hotel cause we have kids and didn't want to have to kill time until midnight, but we know other people didn't get assigned their hotel from WJ and check in until ~ 1am. WJ also provided meal vouchers that we couldn't find anywhere in the airport that could process it - not even the Starbucks.

We found out later it's because the plane coming into Oahu was delayed by a few hours, and by the time they were ready to turn the plane around, the crew had already exceeded their maximum flying hours or something so they have to be grounded until the next morning, even though the plane was ready to go.

WJ denied compensation because they claim "the most significant reason for your flight interruption was due to flight crew member delays from previous day events and outside of WestJet’s control".

Didn't even get a coupon for future bookings.