GM and Toyota said to hold talks

[Altezza]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4398718.stm

GM and Toyota said to hold talks
By Jonathan Head
BBC News Tokyo correspondent

The General needs urgent attention
The chiefs of the world's two largest car makers, Toyota and General Motors (GM), are reported to be meeting in Tokyo to discuss co-operation efforts.

Neither company will confirm the meeting, but GM chairman Rick Wagoner, has been in Japan since Monday.

Toyota is the world's most profitable car maker, while GM is losing billions of dollars.

Toyota might help GM in order to avoid a public backlash against Japanese cars in the crucial US market.

Co-operate rather than compete

Toyota's astonishing success in selling cars around the world, and making money out of them, is beginning to worry its bosses.

Toyota makes most of its profits selling cars in the US, and it is concerned that it could provoke anti-Japanese feeling there.

Some Congressmen have complained that the Japanese yen is being kept artificially weak against the dollar.

So Toyota is looking for ways to co-operate with rather than compete against GM.

Both GM and its rival Ford, the two biggest US manufacturers, are in dire financial straits, burdened by welfare and pension commitments, that there are real fears over their survival.

Fresh figures show that while US car sales fell 14% in October, Toyota and Honda gained market share while GM and Ford slipped back.

Helping each other

In May, Toyota and GM discussed developing hydrogen technology together as an alternative fuel.

Toyota is already the leading manufacturer of so-called hybrid cars, using a combination of electric and petrol power.

Toyota also stepped in last month to buy shares in a smaller Japanese manufacturer from GM, a move which could help its American rival's bottom line.

The latest meeting between the heads of the two companies is shrouded in secrecy, though according to the Kyodo News agency, Toyota President Katsuaki Watanabe and Mr Wagoner are discussing co-operation with regards to technological research and plans for jointly operated factories.

It is becoming increasingly clear that whereas on paper, Toyota and General Motors seem locked in a titanic battle to determine who will dominate the global car market, in practice they are actually helping each other out.

The idea that they no longer want to compete in all areas is no longer a secret.

[dcoultis]

".... Just need to learn how to compete" - President Bush when asked about GMs market value.

I believe toyota has also offered to sell its cars at higher prices to give shit hole companies like gm and ford a chance.

[403Gemini]

so does this mean we're going to see more toyota cavaliers and the such? lol

[sputnik]

Originally posted by 403Gemini
so does this mean we're going to see more toyota cavaliers and the such? lol

Hopefully we see a Chevy tC instead or the Cobalts on a tC platform.

[QuasarCav]

The chevy nova with A 16 valve 4cyl, remember that?

[benyl]

Pontiac Vibe?

Toyota did raise their prices while the big 3 lowered. Supply and demand.

[Kirbs17]

GM needs to learn how to compete and do things more cost effectively. Supply and Demand will dictate the market.

[Xtrema]

Only thing GM and Ford can do is some union busting like the import manufacturers building in the U.S.

The Japanese make more money, give some bonus to workers, develop better cars and make even more money. Rinse and repeat.

For the Domestics, union takes all the money, no budget to proper engineer cars, squeeze suppliers for low quality parts, car become low grade and sale drops off. Then union wants more to protect their own asses.

In the end, both workers got paid pretty much the same. One help the company to succeed, the other force it into brankrupcy.

[ninspeed]

ah... Gm has dealt with toyota for years... deep though our companys companys BS... If you look at a 06 silverado/sierra 45% of the electronics are built by motorola (a non US held company).. not delphi (now seperated from GM and on its own... despite being bankrupt)... if you look at the eng. of new gm's.. you will see lots of "toyota" ideas behind them. I work on GM's, and toyota's all day long... i would still rather work on the GM's vs the Toyotas though due to build quality.. Both are the same.. but GM will use the same ideas though out the whole car instead of one small area... (if you work on either, you will understand what i am talking about)

However, with GM reporting market share gains with the korean marketed cars (Aveo, Optra, Wave... ect) i can see gm dumping more coin into this market finally. GM has always been knowen to dump coin into Truck/SUV tech and devlopment vs. the compact fuel efficent market

[HRD2PLZ]

In all honesty, I don't care what the price difference, I will pay the premium for a Japanese vehicle. In my opinion, the decrease of sales for US Manufacturers is a detriment they have gotten themselves into. I can see how Toyota would opt to co-operate with GM to avoid possible sabotage from the US market. Toyota's have been the absolute best vehicles we have ever owned, we have given the domestic's the chance but they just haven't proven to be worthy of our money

[Nissanaddict]

^^ I'll vouch for GM that they have made some reliable engines (I know people who've gotten half a million kms and beyond on a GM 60 degree V6). But I have never been in a GM that didn't feel cheap compared to it's overseas competition. Plus good engines those V6s, but they ate alternators like popcorn, the newer version had intake manifold gasket problems (due to cost saving....PLASTIC!!)

[86max]

Originally posted by Xtrema
Only thing GM and Ford can do is some union busting like the import manufacturers building in the U.S.

The Japanese make more money, give some bonus to workers, develop better cars and make even more money. Rinse and repeat.

For the Domestics, union takes all the money, no budget to proper engineer cars, squeeze suppliers for low quality parts, car become low grade and sale drops off. Then union wants more to protect their own asses.

In the end, both workers got paid pretty much the same. One help the company to succeed, the other force it into brankrupcy.

Well put.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by Xtrema
Only thing GM and Ford can do is some union busting like the import manufacturers building in the U.S.

The Japanese make more money, give some bonus to workers, develop better cars and make even more money. Rinse and repeat.

For the Domestics, union takes all the money, no budget to proper engineer cars, squeeze suppliers for low quality parts, car become low grade and sale drops off. Then union wants more to protect their own asses.

In the end, both workers got paid pretty much the same. One help the company to succeed, the other force it into brankrupcy.

Many people fail to realize just how badly the UAW affects North American car manufacturers.

[bspot]

Even if GM starts to make better cars it will take years for it to make big improvements in their market share because they have sewered their reputation so badly after building so many shit boxes over the years.

Everytime they talk about how they have changed everything and are finally coming out with a great car that is well built (Malibu, Cobalt etc) it turns out to be a shit box compared to the competitions offerings. They are improving, just not nearly fast enough.

[PSJanis]

sad actually...people tend to buy Japanese cars when they are soooooooo slow.

Japanese =
American =

people dont get that any more

[Rav4Guy]

LOL... alot of people don't buy cars based on how fast it goes. Only the younger age groups tend to buy cars based on how much HP/TQ a car has rather than the short/long term cost and reliability.

Japanese = on the road
American = in the shops

[Weapon_R]

The worst part is that the vast majority of younger generation people are buying Japanese vehicles as opposed to American. The older generation grew up with the big three, but they simply cannot compete. My 'low end pos' Japanese cars (civic, integra) have put my dad's GM SUVs to shame in terms of cost of ownership. He is shopping for an import SUV as we speak.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by Weapon_R
The worst part is that the vast majority of younger generation people are buying Japanese vehicles as opposed to American. The older generation grew up with the big three, but they simply cannot compete. My 'low end pos' Japanese cars (civic, integra) have put my dad's GM SUVs to shame in terms of cost of ownership. He is shopping for an import SUV as we speak.

Another reason is that today's electronics-based lifestyle is much different. Our parents back in the 60's could build a simple, 500+HP American musclecar for quite cheap. Carbed, pushrod engines are extremely simple to build for tons of power, hence the attraction. Having and working on your car was a common thing in the late 60's, and your average Joe could race his Mustang or Charger or Camaro until it blew up, and then fix it. Today's generation knows computers rather than cars, and I'm rather disappointed that many (if not most) people of our generation don't know the difference between a driveshaft and a camshaft. They complacently take their cars to dealerships and willingly shell out $500 for the stealership to replace the PCV valve (true story), without a second thought.

Sure, our motors today have ECM's and sensors and overhead cams, but the basics remain the same. It's not hard to learn to fix a car; go out, buy a Haynes manual, and have at 'er. Yet not many people today have the desire to learn how to do it themselves. Thus, they buy Japanese cars that have less power, but are more reliable, so they don't have to pay for repairs as often.


That being said, if North American car manufacturers could lessen the influence of the UAW union, they could conceivably invest billions and billions into R&D towards improving reliability. It's kinda ironic that the unions are slowly destroying the companies that hire the people that pay their dues.

[HRD2PLZ]

My dad traded in his last domestic in 02 (98' Suburban SLT) for his MDX. My mother hasn't had a domestic ever. Any of the new vehicles they are shopping for are going to be imports, I don't think anything (at this point) could sway us back to the domestics.

[That.Guy.S30]

Originally posted by PSJanis
sad actually...people tend to buy Japanese cars when they are soooooooo slow.

Japanese =
American =

people dont get that any more

say that to an STi or EVO owner.