Turning right on red from second lane

[Champ]

In downtown Calgary there are many intersections that have double right turn lanes and I have often wondered if it is legal to turn right on red from both lanes. The same question arises when there are double left turn lanes where they are from a one way street to a one way street where it is legal to turn left from the left lane on red. In these cases where there is a double left turn sign can you turn left on red from both lanes?

I contacted Alberta Transportation and even they could not give an answer to this question. Is there any Alberta Police Officer that can give an difinitive answer to this question of double turns on red?

Here is the full set of emails which don't answer my questions:


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As I stated before, you can make the turns but there is no specific wording that I can find to support your claim if this is what you are looking for.



Hope this helps.



Jerry Pawluk




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From: me
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 6:01 PM
To: Jerry Pawluk
Subject: RE: Question about turning left on red in one way streets



I am looking for a specific piece of information about double turns. I am specifically trying to find out if it is legal to make the turns from the second lane on a RED LIGHT.



If I approach a dual right turn lane on red can I turn right on red from the second turn lane in the same manner as I would turn right on red from the rightmost lane?



The same question I ask for dual left hand turn lanes from one way street to one way street; If I approach a dual left turn lane for a one way to one way turn on red can I turn left on red from the second turn lane using the same laws for red light left turns from the leftmost lane?



Thank you for your quick response to the previous email and I hope to hear from you soon on this information.




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From: Jerry Pawluk [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 10:07 AM
To: you
Cc: Debbie Lamoureux
Subject: RE: Question about turning left on red in one way streets

Thank you for writing to Alberta Infrastructure and Transportation with your question regarding dual turns.



You are correct that there is no specific mention of dual turns in the Traffic Safety Act. In our Basic Licence Driver’s Handbook on page 28 we explain designated lane signs with graphics and say:



These signs indicate which lanes you may use to make a turn or to go straight. If you are in the designated lane, you must follow the direction that is indicated by the arrows. Since certain intersections may allow two vehicles to be turning at the same time, carefully maintain your lane position during and after the turn.

On page 80 we explain dual lane turns as:



When making a right or left turn where dual lane turns are indicated by pavement markings or signs, approach the intersection in one of the marked lanes and turn into the corresponding lane.

Remember: Dual lane turns can only be made where indicated. Never swing wide or change lanes in dual lane turn intersections as another vehicle could be turning beside you.



Therefore, if a designated dual lane exists (left or right) at an intersection that is a one-way to a one-way, you can make the turn in either lane providing there are no signs prohibiting the turn.



If you would like to view our handbook, we have it available on our web site at the following address:



http://www.infratrans.gov.ab.ca/Driv...aminations.htm



I hope that this information will be of benefit to you and thank you for using our web services with your question.



Jerry Pawluk

Alberta Infrastructure and Transportation






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From: me
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 3:48 PM
To: Debbie Lamoureux
Subject: Question about turning left on red in one way streets

I live in Calgary and there are many downtown one way streets that have a double left turn lane into another one way street. My question is, is it legal to turn left from both the first and second leftmost lane (where double left turn signs are posted) onto the one way street?



The same question can be asked for double right turn lanes in Calgary. Can you turn right from the second right lane into the second right lane on red when the signage states that this is a double right turn lane?



I have searched all of the traffic laws for Alberta and find no mention of these situations which occur often in downtown Calgary.



Thank you.

[rc2002]

I'm 99.99% sure it's legal. Everyone does it. Except for on 9th avenue at Banker's hall - there are actually signs up that prohibit turning from a one-way to a one-way.

[Thaco]

Originally posted by Champ


Therefore, if a designated dual lane exists (left or right) at an intersection that is a one-way to a one-way, you can make the turn in either lane providing there are no signs prohibiting the turn.

the answer is right there.

[Champ]

He said nothing about doing that on red though. He just states that you can turn left from the second lane when it is posted, nothing about doing it on red.

[Thaco]

Originally posted by Champ
He said nothing about doing that on red though. He just states that you can turn left from the second lane when it is posted, nothing about doing it on red.

yeah but what he's saying in the is that it's legal to do unless it says no dual turn on red or somethign to that effect...

at least that's how i read it.

[Champ]

What gets me is that I can't get a straight yes or no answer even from the Ministry of Transportation. These situations where we don't know what is legal and what is not shouldn't occur.

Take the guys who customize their exausts. They have nowhere they can go to verify it is legal and it is at a police officer's discression to give a ticket. It would be much better if laws were clearly defined in cases like this.

[rage2]

Your answer is right here:

http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread.p...hreadid=122926

Police officer from BC, as well the laws for Alberta relating to the turn on red from 1st and 2nd lane. It's legal in Alberta. If there are 3 turn lanes, one way to one way, all 3 are allowed to do so on red, unless otherwise indicated (such as 3rd street and 9th ave SW).

[Champ]

Thanks Rage.

I still would like a police officer to verify that if the lane is legal for a turn, that you can use it on red where appropriate, ie. second right turn lane on red.

[Mar]

I do it everyday, I'll let you know if I ever get a ticket.

[Traffic_Cop]

You can make a right turn from a dual turn lane on a red IF it can be done SAFELY, and if there are no signs which prohibit this turn. Left turns on reds have to be one-way to one-way.

[Maxt]

Something is amiss here, I was with a friend downtown, and he got a ticket for doing exactly as you asked, the cop told him yes you can turn on right on the closest adjacent lane, but when you are in the second lane over, you are crossing a traffic lane perpendicular to you on the red, therefore, you have run the red light.. He didnt fight it, he just paid it... I also got a warning for doing it about 16 years ago..
Last night a taxi turned from onto 6th from 4th from the second turn lane on red, and the red light camera flashed...

[Traffic_Cop]

Are you sure theres no sign prohibiting the turn?????

[Maxt]

Absolutleyt sure, 5 th ave onto 1 st se...

[frostyda9]

Is it marked as an absolute dual turn lane at 5th and 1st? "Absolute" implying that both lanes must exit and do not have the option of going straight?

[Alex_FORD]

Originally posted by frostyda9
Is it marked as an absolute dual turn lane at 5th and 1st? "Absolute" implying that both lanes must exit and do not have the option of going straight?

A good example of an absolute turning lane that is dual lane is at transcanada and deerfoot - if you are westbound on transcanada, and you make the left hand turn to go to deerfoot southbound.

[frostyda9]

OK then....are both lanes marked as "must turn lanes" then? I don't drive DT all that much, and Alex_FORD doesn't like my terminology

[max_boost]

You know, I was never sure of this. So instead of having my signals on in the second lane, I leave it off (so the punk behind me doesn't honk), as if I was going straight, then turn them back on when I turn. haha Didn't feel like risking it

[bigboom]

you can turn right or left from the outside lane provided that the inside lane is a right or left turn ONLY lane...unless marked otherwise. if Maxt friend got a ticket for that then its his fault he didnt fight it.

[topmade]

Originally posted by max_boost
You know, I was never sure of this. So instead of having my signals on in the second lane, I leave it off (so the punk behind me doesn't honk), as if I was going straight, then turn them back on when I turn. haha Didn't feel like risking it

I do the same thing

But now I know and will turn everytime. But if I see a cop and for the sake of any potential problems I won't turn because I'm a pussie

[Maxt]

Originally posted by bigboom
you can turn right or left from the outside lane provided that the inside lane is a right or left turn ONLY lane...unless marked otherwise. if Maxt friend got a ticket for that then its his fault he didnt fight it.

I think really its cops fault for making the mistake, remember it was a cop that told us that it was illegal and gave my friend the ticket..We argued when the ticket was issued, and were told we were both just ignorant of the law..Apparently so was the cop..
I've emailed my friend to ask him if he might still have the summons from that day , it was quite awhile ago, but he might still have it...
I remember it pretty well, because while we were basically in mid turn, I started telling him you cant turn like that, because I got pulled over and warned at the very same corner once previously.. There was a cop 2 cars back of us, and on came the lights right after I said you can't turn like that...
That being said, I have seen cops do the same turn on red alot..
But I have also watched cops cross double yellows, run reds, and ignore pedestrians, doesnt mean its legal just because cops do it..
Alberta Transportation and the police need to define it clearly in the handbook and in a public statement for sure, with the price of traffic fines and insurance, you cant have "grey area" laws, or cops making them up on the spot either...