US Marines massacre women and kids...

[googe]

Originally posted by Alex_FORD


Thats not true, if I read the sources that you quoted.

Aside from self defense, yes it is. (Before someone says it, pre-emptive strikes are not self defense)

Originally posted by Alex_FORD

it's not "completely wrong".

they are definitely opposing an occupation that has already brought more liberties to Iraq. This makes them at least partially anti-libertarianists.

This argument is flawed because according to libertarianism, you have no right to decide whats best for others.

The new Iraq Prime Minister told US to GTFO a year ago now. The number of insurgents is going up, not down. Every time a poll is taken among the citizens, more and more are saying they dont want them there, and are supporting attacks on coalition forces. So, continuing to "help" them against their will is the most anti-libertarian move possible. Its pretty obvious when the actual libertarian party is opposing it. Obviously the libertarian party isnt anti-libertarian.

Nevermind the fact that "liberating" them had nothing to do with the invasion in the first place, debunking that whole premise entirely.

[msommers]

What a suprise that CNN hasn't covered this(from a quick search of their website I could no find any data) and a NON north american media broadcast has. I'd be very interested in seeing what CNN filters to American citizens.

And to all those who say Americans are bad and/or terrorists, get the facts instead of what your buddy told you. 3/4 of the American population have no detailed information of what is happening there everyday and thus cannot give an actual personal opinion. I strongly believe the heavly bias media influences force Americans to think what the government wants them to think and perceive. Sure there are some citizens who want to help the Iraq's to a democratic stae so they are pro-war, others are just racists F**ks and don't like Iraq's..more pro-war. On the contrary, people against the war know the consquences of war but what's going to happen to the Iraqi people if nothing was done at all...hope the problem sorts itself out???

If in fact the article presented is true, then those individuals should be prosecuted to the full extent, it doesn't matter if they are American or not.

Whether Bush had intentions of hunting just for oil or realized Iraq's dire situation can be discussed for ages...why....because no one has cold hard documentation to support either side. Conspiracy theories come up all the time and will forever continue..ie. landing on the moon anyone? I'm sure tons of people have seen the video of the plane crashing into the pentagon which apparently had no plane wreckage to be found. However, for this war to be a conspiracy, it's hard for me to see any benifit for the States financially, as this war has to be costing them thousands of dollars a second.

My gut tells me Bush went into Iraq for all the wrong reaons but I sure hope to God that I'm wrong. Innocent people are dying, family members on both sides are being lost and soldiers may be digging themselves into pyschopathic state of uncontrolled rage because of this war. The sooner Iraq can find some stable legs to stand on and fully defend itself the better. I'm sure I didn't make sense in some parts of this but it is 5 AM so feel free to pick me apart!!!

[5abi]

fuck bush, sending all those kids from the states to go and die in a fruitless war....if it was a war with meaning then death is worth it..but how would it be to be the father or mother of these marines dying there? the exact same as the f/m of the iraqi kids..its horrible..this is a waste of a war.like all wars.

[eljefe]

Originally posted by msommers
What a suprise that CNN hasn't covered this(from a quick search of their website I could no find any data) and a NON north american media broadcast has.

Type in Haditha Massacre, or Haditha deaths , or Haditha Marines in CNN's search engine and select search CNN there are and have been story after story after story since this broke into the news. Maybe you spelled Haditha wrong in your search?

[msommers]

Yes my mistake, that was rather dumb. Was it BBC that initially publicized the story and CNN basically regurgitated it?

[BlueGoblin]

^ I think that most new outlets ran that story pretty much at about the same time, in part due to the way it came out.

This latest civilian massacre seems to have started with the Beeb though as one of its reporters happened on some tape which contradict's the 'official' U.S. military story of the killings.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5039420.stm

I wonder how many more events like this there were?

[Atombomb]

Originally posted by googe


In what Im sure is no surprise, I disagree entirely First of all, Libertarianism essentially forbids war entirely. Physical force is a complete violation of libertarian principles. So to say that those that oppose this occupation are anti-libertarianist is completely wrong.

The argument that "reputable media outlets and ground sources" are the only rational perspective is fallacious. Suppose the war is not legitimate, and Im not saying it is or isnt, then if that were true, denying its legitimacy would obviously be correct. Discounting conspiracy theories only on the basis that they are conspiracy theories would imply that there has never been any cases of conspiracy before, which by the governments own admission, is untrue.

Have you heard of MKULTRA? This was a program by the CIA to test mind control on unaware US citizens. Their experiments involved various drugs like LSD as well as electronic methods and radiation. There was torture, and in a few cases, death. The New York Times broke the story and a year later the US government admitted to it and the documents have been declassified. Theyre still available on US government websites. According to the US government, the CIA breaks about 100,000 "serious laws" every year, secretly. If someone tried to say the CIA was performing mind control experiments on them and torturing them, theyd be laughed out of the room and probably committed to a psych ward. With their history, its not irrational to think there are hidden agendas, coverups, etc.

Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...n_conspiracies for more fun, all with references

Edit: And the time that the US Department of Defense wanted to secretly kill members of the US navy and shoot innocent civilians in the streets, and hijacking planes to pretend the cubans did it so they could declare war

Libertarians promote the use of liberty and discourage the use of force, thomas jefferson, james madison, general george washington... all libertarians, all enaged or supported the war against the british. There are 25 million free Iraqis, 1 million that oppose this liberation 999,999.... 999,998.... lol.
Know what I mean

2nd, you have to use reasoning (a fundamental core of libertariansim) not partisan opinion about media bias or a partisan view about partisan views in addressing the media at "ground zero". If any one reporter caught anything on tape like the Hadith masacre it would be front page news, liberty (competition) ensures that there is no media bias, infact, contrary to the opinion of most people viewing this thread (I'm not specifically addressing you since you sound fairly informed), CNN is very democratic, very anti-constitutionalism... fairly left wing, they are like the CBC of America, and would absolutely love to cover some wrong doings... their view base demands it and pays them to do it far more then government would.

If you listen to the statements of the Iraqi witnesses and the marines invovled you get a different sense of what was going on in Iraq then opinons here in Canada at the dinner table. In Iraq women and children often are used as scouts and count patrols and time them, in Canada we have beavers and scouts, in the middle east, unfortunately sometimes you have, head bad wearing fundamentalists. I'm not saying this justifys any sort of action alleged. However, no one is innocent no matter what they look like. Before the Iraqi conflict begun, the last 10 years, 5 year olds would walk up to American troops on the Kawati side of the border begging for candy with conceiled Improvised explosive devices. Sure I'd love to catch these kids and punish their parents, but this isn't domestic violence in a Canadian home. Rules of engagement are different. Scary, Barbaric, sometimes even necessary. Who covered this stroy?? The Iraqi free press and ABC news!!!! (Hadith)

CIA = Central INTELLIGENCE Agency not Careful law-abiding citizen coalition. What they do is gather intelligence in many awkward ways. I am not a CIA operative nor am I familiar with them, they are sometimes coutner liberty and by "central" definately pro-government so I cannot really say one way or the other, except... get government out of it!

Originally posted by Weapon_R
Libertarianism does NOT forbid war, but encourages cooperation. Wikipedia is not a source you want to base your arguments on.

Solid! Infact, tubular! To understand realism, reasoning, and logical thinking, one has to come to his own encouraged decisions and his own reasoning paths, trying to develope a real prespective cannot be achieved by consulting partisan definitions and organizations, it is philosophical not scientific... bah.

[Toma]

well....looks like there are now several cases in the same region occuring over the last year....

[googe]

Originally posted by Atombomb


Libertarians promote the use of liberty and discourage the use of force, thomas jefferson, james madison, general george washington... all libertarians, all enaged or supported the war against the british. There are 25 million free Iraqis, 1 million that oppose this liberation 999,999.... 999,998.... lol.
Know what I mean

The flaw in that argument is that the war against the british was self defense against sovereignty violations. This is at least remotely consistent with libertarian philosophy. However, there are many reasons why that was still not technically a libertarian act.

Again, one has no right to decide if others want their help. Remember when they forced their help on the cuban civlians? They kicked their asses right back into the water.

But that doesnt even matter. Lets say for arguments sake that such an action is libertarian. It wasnt the reason for the invasion anyway. The objective of invasion was to disarm saddam of his WMDs. Which, as even the bush administration now admits, do not exist. Its not libertarian to attack someone for what you THINK they MIGHT do. Very much the opposite. Just because you plaster everything with words like "patriot", "freedom", "liberty" to gain public support doesnt change the fact that the original reason for the invasion is known.

Besides, Jefferson and Washington had slaves, and even actively restricted their rights. I dunno if theyre good examples

No idea where youre getting your 1 million vs 25 million numbers, but its not consistent with any polls done by either side from what I can see.

Originally posted by Atombomb


If you listen to the statements of the Iraqi witnesses and the marines invovled you get a different sense of what was going on in Iraq then opinons here in Canada at the dinner table. In Iraq women and children often are used as scouts and count patrols and time them, in Canada we have beavers and scouts, in the middle east, unfortunately sometimes you have, head bad wearing fundamentalists. I'm not saying this justifys any sort of action alleged. However, no one is innocent no matter what they look like. Before the Iraqi conflict begun, the last 10 years, 5 year olds would walk up to American troops on the Kawati side of the border begging for candy with conceiled Improvised explosive devices. Sure I'd love to catch these kids and punish their parents, but this isn't domestic violence in a Canadian home. Rules of engagement are different. Scary, Barbaric, sometimes even necessary. Who covered this stroy?? The Iraqi free press and ABC news!!!! (Hadith)

Not sure what youre alluding to here, but if its that there are circumstances where its acceptable to murder an infant, well Im not even going to touch that.

Originally posted by Atombomb


Solid! Infact, tubular! To understand realism, reasoning, and logical thinking, one has to come to his own encouraged decisions and his own reasoning paths, trying to develope a real prespective cannot be achieved by consulting partisan definitions and organizations, it is philosophical not scientific... bah.

Well thats fine, of course theres nothing wrong with free independent thinking, but that doesnt change the fact that libertarianism has an established definition. You can have your own perspective and philosophy, but then it is something else, not libertarianism

The partisan references were not cited as definitions, they were used to offer credibility to the principles already stated.

This is a pretty solid essay, imo, of why there is no such thing as a libertarian war:

http://www.wendymcelroy.com/articles/justwar.html

(man has this thread gone OT, at least its a good discussion )

[eljefe]

Originally posted by Atombomb


There are 25 million free Iraqis, 1 million that oppose this liberation

Occupation = Free Iraqis?

Only 1 million oppose this liberation/occupation??

Perhaps the most insightful poll was released on Jan. 31 by the Program on International Policy Attitudes. Entitled “What the Iraqi Public Wants,” the poll divided the Iraqi population into Kurds, Shia and Sunnis, and shows that 80 percent of all Iraqis polled believe that the “U.S. government plans to have permanent military bases in Iraq.” Seventy-six percent believed that the U.S. would refuse “if the new Iraqi government were to tell the U.S. to withdraw all of its forces within six months.” Eighty-seven percent would approve the government’s endorsing a timeline for U.S. withdrawal, as opposed to only reducing the forces “as the security situation improves.” Almost half of those polled—47 percent—said they approve of attacks on U.S.-led forces in Iraq.


According to the report, “The major source of urgency for withdrawal is the feeling ... that it is offensive for their country to be occupied .

[Alex_FORD]

Although I'm interested in this discussion of 'libertarianism', ...

I think that perhaps we could get closer to the heart of the issues merely by looking at 'liberties' and using a little common sense and compassion.

For example, Iraqi TV and free press covered the stories of these massacres. Yet, I don't beleive the Saddam Hussien's massacres were allowed coverage, and if they were allowed coverage, I'd bet that there was a very strong bias to them.

[Alex_FORD]

Originally posted by googe

, you have no right to decide whats best for others.

.

And you have decided that this is the best for me and others?


Please don't stutter too much when you try to answer Yes or No to this question.

[googe]

Originally posted by Alex_FORD


And you have decided that this is the best for me and others?


Please don't stutter too much when you try to answer Yes or No to this question.

I have decided what is best for you, exactly?