Israeli soldiers cowardly hiding in civilian areas?

[Toma]

What I have argued instead is twofold. First, we cannot easily know what Hizbullah is trying to hit because Israel has located most of its army camps, weapons factories and military installations near or inside civilian communities. If a Hizbullah rocket slams into an Israeli town with a weapons factory, should we count that as an attack on civilians or on a military site?

The claim being made against Hizbullah in Lebanon -- that it is “cowardly blending” with civilians, according to the UN’s Jan Egeland -- can, in truth, be made far more convincingly of the Israeli army. While there has been little convincing evidence that Hizbullah is firing its rocket from towns and villages in south Lebanon, or that its fighters are hiding there among civilians, it can be known beyond a shadow of a doubt that Israeli army camps and military installations are based in northern Israeli communities.

An obvious point that no one seems to be making -- and given a news blackout that lasted several hours, Israel clearly hoped no one would make -- is that the 12 soldiers who were killed on Sunday in Kfar Giladi by a Hizbullah rocket were, under Egeland’s definition, “cowardly blending” with the civilian population of that community. We know there are still civilians in Giladi because their response to the rocket barrage was quoted in the Israeli media.

Interesting twist.... from http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...7&ItemID=10732

[adam c]

didnt hebollah originally start that?

[Toms-SC]

WOW! What an EXCELLENT source!

http://www.zmag.org/

[Toma]

On Tuesday, the BBC’s Katya Adler reported from the northern community of Kiryat Shmona, which has taken the heaviest pounding from Hizbullah rockets and from which many of the local residents have fled over the past month. As she stood on a central street describing the difficult conditions under which the remaining families were living, she had to shout over the rythmic bark of what sounded like an Israeli tank close by firing into Lebanon. She made no mention of what was doing the firing -- and given the censorship laws, my assumption is she cannot. But it does raise the question of how much of a civilian target Kiryat Shmona really is.

Consider also this. Throughout the four weeks of fighting, the BBC have had a presenter and film crew at the top of an area of Haifa known as the Panorama, above the beautiful Bahai Gardens. As the name suggests, from there the film crew have had an unrestricted view of the port and docks below and the wide arc of heavily developed shoreline that stretches up to Acre.

The spot where the BBC presenters have been standing, telling us regularly that they can hear the wail of sirens warning Haifa’s residents to head for the shelters, is in the centre of this sprawling ridge-top city, in one of the most heavily built up and inhabited areas of Haifa. So why have the BBC’s presenters been standing there calmly every day for weeks under the barrage of rockets?

Because all the evidence suggests that Hizbullah has not been trying to hit the centre of Haifa, where it would be certain of inflicting high casualties, whether its rockets were on target or slightly adrift. Instead, as BBC presenters have repeatedly shown us, the overwhelming majority of rockets land either in the mostly-abandoned port area or fall short into the bay -- and on the odd occasion travel a little too far, as one did on Sunday landing on an Arab neighbourhood near the port and killing two inhabitants.

[Toma]

Originally posted by Toms-SC
WOW! What an EXCELLENT source!

http://www.zmag.org/

Imagine... a site full of intelligent, EDUCATED and informed people...

ex government, ex politicians, writers, journalists that have covered dozens of wars, professors of history, linguistics, soicial sciences etc...

Damn... that site sucks

[Toma]

Originally posted by adam c
didnt hebollah originally start that?

Uhm, no... are you still not paying attention?

[Toma]

If Hizbullah’s primary goal is to kill as many civilians as possible in Haifa, it seems to be going about it in a very strange manner indeed -- unless we are to believe that none of its rockets could be fired the extra 1km needed to hit central Haifa. Instead, as is clear from the view shown by BBC cameras, the port includes many sites far more “strategic” than the roads, bridges, milk factories and power stations Israel is destroying in Lebanon: it has the oil refinery, the naval docks and other installations that, yes, I cannot mention because of the censorship laws.

At the very least, we should concede to Hizbullah that it is not always targeting civilians, and very possibly is not mainly targeting civilians, which might in part explain the comparatively low Israeli civilian casualty figures.

[Speedy]

Here's my 2 cents, I am not for or against any side...

Israel currently is 21,056 Km2 with a population of 6,276,883 people.

Alberta is 661,848 Km2 with a population of 3,183,312 people.

I have personally been to Israel on buissness and it is a tiny country, it would be very hard to properly segment the military installations from civillan, there simply is no room.

[Toms-SC]

"Participatory Economics (Parecon for short) is a type of economy proposed as an alternative to contemporary capitalism. The underlying values are equity, solidarity, diversity, and participatory self management. The main institutions are workers and consumers councils utilizing self managed decision making, balanced job complexes, remuneration according to effort and sacrifice, and participatory planning. This page links to articles, interviews, talks, instructionals, Q/A sessions, and books about parecon and closely related matters. "

So we have Communists

"International Project for a Participatory Society exists to propose, investigate, debate, explore, and advocate radical ideas for a desirable future. IPPS focuses on social, economic, cultural, and political life. It's membership is responsible for this site and for related projects which include struggling, writing, speaking, and acting on behalf of developing shared vision and strategy attaining a better world. The IPPS core values include solidarity, diversity, equity, self management, justice, and"

And Radicals

"The International Project for a Participatory Society (IPPS) is a group of activists, writers, media producers, and others committed to the basic principles and values of solidarity, diversity, equity, self management. Our mandate is to generate, promote, and support vision and strategy for attaining a participatory society. This site details our definition and operations and presents links for content regarding social change vision and strategy that we have generated or that we feel special regard for. "

And Yuppies

[NATE0513]

Toma... give it up you are starting to make yourself look foolish, (if thats not peoples assumptions already).

[403Gemini]

Originally posted by NATE0513
Toma... give it up you are starting to make yourself look foolish, (if thats not peoples assumptions already).

lol
specially with facts like this

Originally posted by Speedy
Here's my 2 cents, I am not for or against any side...

Israel currently is 21,056 Km2 with a population of 6,276,883 people.

Alberta is 661,848 Km2 with a population of 3,183,312 people.

I have personally been to Israel on buissness and it is a tiny country, it would be very hard to properly segment the military installations from civillan, there simply is no room.

damn thats cramped lol

[Toma]

Originally posted by NATE0513
Toma... give it up you are starting to make yourself look foolish, (if thats not peoples assumptions already).

Nah buddy... there are some of you that no matter what I say, you will say I am stooopid or foolish... I dont give a rats ass about you morons....

Then there are the other 50% of beyonders that have a brain, or at least an open mind, and this is for whom I post....

Thanks for your concern about my public image though

If you have not noticed, I am not overly concerend with OTHER peoples opinion of my intelligence, penis size, weight, tuning ability... blah blah blah...

[lint]

Originally posted by NATE0513
Toma... give it up you are starting to make yourself look foolish, (if thats not peoples assumptions already).

Do you really think you're making yourself look better when all you do is post in these threads about how bad you think Toma looks, and never actually address the topic/concerns/facts that the posts are about?

[Toma]

Not to mention....

If you have not noticed, I am ALSO ONE of the ONLY guys on here that uses his real name as unique as it is, and am not afraid or hiding behind a keyboard, and my part time work is in my sig.... I'm a real person

You annonynous chicken shit faggots that hide behind a computer because no one takes you seriosuly in real life are the problem with internet forums.... not guys like me YOu can yap all you want, but no one knows who you are, your credentials etc....

Internet cowboys... wooohooo I am SSOOOOOOO upset you don't like what I say.... I better change my name

[NATE0513]

Closed mind? You may want to re-think your comments. I accept the right of every individual’s right to live. You and your views are the contrary, you cannot see past your own nose.

You preach the death and destruction of Israel and the Jewish people and are obviously disgusted with western civilization and "that’s that". Who is closed minded now?


My request would be that you stop using this forum to express your own views and shoot down everything people say in response to your topics. If you wish not to, well "it's a free country" but you are only proving your own ignorance

[thinmyster]

Originally posted by Toma

Then there are the other 50% of beyonders that have a brain, or at least an open mind, and this is for whom I post....

If they had that much of a brain they would look this stuff up themselves and base their opinion on their own without your propaganda

[NATE0513]

ic.. and you are making another vast assumption. You resort to all of these personal attacks on people you don’t even know. It saddens me to see how much this world has jaded you.

Your beliefs are your own, and when met with the kind of criticism you have it may been around here lately perhaps a different stage is more be suiting your cause what ever it may be.

Originally posted by Toma
Not to mention....

If you have not noticed, I am ALSO ONE of the ONLY guys on here that uses his real name as unique as it is, and am not afraid or hiding behind a keyboard, and my part time work is in my sig.... I'm a real person

You annonynous chicken shit faggots that hide behind a computer because no one takes you seriosuly in real life are the problem with internet forums.... not guys like me YOu can yap all you want, but no one knows who you are, your credentials etc....

Internet cowboys... wooohooo I am SSOOOOOOO upset you don't like what I say.... I better change my name

[Tech2]

Well, those israeli soldier were reserve members who had just been called up to serve.

I suppose one could make the argument that because Israel's reserve soldiers live in cities, then cities are legitimate military targets. Sort of like saying that because Israel has manditory military service that no one really is a civilian, therefore every jew is a military target. It might not be a strong argument, but you could make it. Take it one step further and it could be said that pregnant mothers are a ligitimate military target because if they have a son he'll grow up to be a soldier.

As for saying these reserve guys were "cowardly blending in", reserve soldiers in Israel going to war wear uniforms, and these guys weren't staging an attack from the civilian area.

But really, it's not like hizbolla was actually trying to get these particular guys. Most of their rockets land in feilds. They just got really really lucky once. Anyone anywhere in northern Israel could get a rocket at any time. It doesn't much matter if you're civilian or military or what, targeting these 122mm rockets is a general direction sort of affair. Add to that the fact that hizbollah states destroying israel and the jews as it's goal, is it reasonable to believe they were actually aiming for a group of reserve soldiers getting off the bus in some israeli town? The article says how can we know what hizbollah is really trying to hit, and it's right. We can't know what they are trying to hit, because it's pretty unlikely they have much of an idea themselves besides somewhere in israel within 20km of here.

As for the news blackouts, that is not to keep us in canada from seeing that israelis are using human shields, it's to keep hizbollah from seeing where their rockets went. One reason they can't hit much is because they have to spotter teams inside israel to help them adjust fire.

[Tech2]

[quote][b]the port includes many sites far more “strategic” than the roads, bridges, milk factories and power stations Israel is destroying in Lebanon[b][quote/]

True, there are strategic sites besides roads. Blowing up roads and bridges in lebannon does, however, prevent moving truck mounted rocket launchers, and stops semis carrying long range rockets in from syria. I find it hard to see the difficulty in understanding the value limiting an enemy's mobility.

[knowtheledge]

Interesting reading. Its just plain to see when watching the news that propaganda is thrown at Hezbollah, anyone can clearly tell by the casualty figures. Another human shield story....http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...117746A3B2.htm

Btw Toma is your real name? Doesn't that mean 'take it' in spanish?