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Thread: Importance: Individual rights or Majority comfort?

  1. #41
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    Originally posted by CMSbob


    If this was promotoing or threatening to hang up the 'real' Santa Clause, I could by that arguement, but since it is a fictional Character I don't buy it. If I nailed Fred Flintstone to a cross on my front yard, am I threatening to harm all Cartoon Cavemen? Come on man... All this guy has done is make some people uncomfortable because they don't have the skill to be able to actually parent there own kids, which is a shame as there are going to be a lot more important things to steer their kids around and guide them appropriately through life than this.

    Myself, I have no problem tackling difficult issues with my kids, who BTW are 6 and 9 years old. That is my job... If I think something is not right and they ask me about it, I can explain it. I have been hit with a lot tougher stuff than santa on a stick...
    Couldnt have said it better myself, bravo. I don't have kids yet, but I do have an identical view on how they will be raised when I do. Treat them like people, not idiots.

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    Originally posted by CMSbob


    If this was promotoing or threatening to hang up the 'real' Santa Clause, I could by that arguement, but since it is a fictional Character I don't buy it. If I nailed Fred Flintstone to a cross on my front yard, am I threatening to harm all Cartoon Cavemen? Come on man... All this guy has done is make some people uncomfortable because they don't have the skill to be able to actually parent there own kids, which is a shame as there are going to be a lot more important things to steer their kids around and guide them appropriately through life than this.

    Myself, I have no problem tackling difficult issues with my kids, who BTW are 6 and 9 years old. That is my job... If I think something is not right and they ask me about it, I can explain it. I have been hit with a lot tougher stuff than santa on a stick...
    So if the crucifiction can't be construed as violent, what could be? Can something that would normally be considered violent be rendered impotent purely on the basis of the character involved?
    Does a 4 year old know that Santa isn't real?
    Surely you can see what I'm getting at. Perception.

    Like I've said before, I agree that this falls well short of requiring a suspension of rights, however, the second part of the question deals with what yardstick we use to determine where the line in the sand is drawn.
    Santa on stick=OK
    Jesus on stick=OK
    Sculpture showing an aborted fetus on the end of a coat hanger=?
    How about a tribute to NAMBLA in front of a elementary school?

    I agree that this is pretty small potatos in the grand scheme of things. What I'm more concerned with is what constitutes big potatos and how you measure them.

    I should reiterate that I'm a big believer in not making everything "kid safe". Parents have a responsibility to protect their kids from a shitload of stuff. Just because something isn't "kid friendly" doesn't mean it should be removed.
    Does the community, as a whole, share in some of the responsibility to ensure kids aren't subjected to an excess of mature content?
    If so, who get's to decide what's too mature? More importantly, who gets to decide what's excessive?
    Or is it the sole responsibility of the parent, in which case why do we have laws on the books to restrict children's access to certain subject matter?

    And yes, I do know I'm arguing both sides of the issue.


    Kris

  3. #43
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    Nobody is saying it can't be construed as a violent image, but is it inciting violence against Santa? Of course not! The only violence that has to be worried about here seems to be backlash at the artist himself...

    There are a whole bunch worse violent images out there today, all used to do various things... Entertainment, sales, etc... This is at least thought provoking, and he is making a very valid statement in my opinion...

    If you think kids are going to stop believing in santa because they see this, than you or your kids (not speaking of 'you' literally of course) have bigger issues than simply communication. Like I said, if my kids asked, I would talk to them about it and then make a decision whether or not it is time to fess up the truth to them, or continue with the charade, because let face it, that is exactly what Santa is...

    I am having to deal with the santa issue as we speak as my 6 year old daughter is being told by a boy at school that santa is not real and that it is really us parents. She really wants to believe in santa still so we are supporting her decision to believe. My 9 year old son on the other hand figured it out on his own a couple years back and came to us with questions and valid points why he thought we were actually Mr. and Mrs Clause, so it was obvious he was ready for the truth...

    Every kid is different and it comes down to parenting... good, bad or otherwise.

    Now to answer what constitutes unacceptable or not? Of course that is always going to be subjective, but I personally think it comes down to what truely incites violence against a 'REAL' person or people... Is this also subjective? Hell yes it is, but if it was cut and dry than there wouldn't be any discussion now would there?
    Bob Blakeborough

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    I like that, I think it's funny.

    Cheers.

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    i think it's funny how many people have the defense of, "if we allow this, what is next?!"

    Also it would not possible to put it in front of an elementary school because that is public land and not private.

    Why are we worried about kids asking questions? That is how kids learn.

    Besides there are far worse things he could legally do...

  6. #46
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    Originally posted by CMSbob

    I am having to deal with the santa issue as we speak as my 6 year old daughter is being told by a boy at school that santa is not real and that it is really us parents. She really wants to believe in santa still so we are supporting her decision to believe. My 9 year old son on the other hand figured it out on his own a couple years back and came to us with questions and valid points why he thought we were actually Mr. and Mrs Clause, so it was obvious he was ready for the truth...
    hahaha, I remember I got in a lot of shit for telling the rest of the grade 1 class that santa was bunk

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    I think that his "art" is appaling. Kids dont understand art, they understand that santa is being killed. Kids minds are fragile and just because some old starving artist thinks that it is o.k. to crucify our symbol of christmas dosent make it right. He could express himself a little more tastefully like painting a picture of santa being crucified so that some ADULT can buy it and not subject innocent minds to this garbage. But in the end i guess its alot quicker to buy a santa suite and a couple of planks of wood then to actually take time to make ART.

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    kids minds are fragile because people shelter them too much.

    the sole purpose of art is expression and making a statement. id say the fact that we are talking about it means its fairly successful. materials used to make it are pretty irrelevant. and dude is far from starving, as noted in the article.

    personally, i think having to explain to kids why robert pickton picked up a bunch of drug-laden women, raped them, killed them, buried them in his farm, fed their meat to pigs and then that meat to other humans, or why every other month a student brings a gun to school and makes a bloody mess out of other people in his class, or piles and piles of dead bodies in third world countries, would be a little more challenging.

    and no one complains when that is on the 5 oclock news.

    if a guy that disagrees with santa is the worst idea they have to encounter, youre doing pretty good!

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    Why would you want to make children grow up faster? I know im not the only one who enjoyed the stress free magic of childhood. As a child your not supposed to be thinking about why some tasteless artist is killing your holiday icon. Your suppposed to be thinking about the spirit of Christmas and how many presents your going to get from santa. What makes this o.k. in some peoples eyes is that they believe in tasteless art and being different over the tradition of this country.
    In my opinion this is all just a publicity stunt.
    Jimmy WHO?
    oh Jimmy wright that guy who crucified santa in 2006. PATHETIC.

  10. #50
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    I'm not going to comment on this particular example, but on the question being asked.


    Which is more important, individual rights or majority comfort?


    My father taught me an interesting saying.


    "Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins."

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    Originally posted by Carfanman

    "Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins."
    Yeah, that's an interesting way to put it. I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say it's a global truth.

    There are some things you just don't say, and there are some things you just don't do.
    Person 'A' might let you get away with saying and doing whatever you want, as long as you don't get physical first.
    Person 'B' will go upside your head if you get blatantly disrespectful, and he won't feel even a little bit bad about it.
    Person 'A's life would be infinitly harder if there wasn't a Person 'B'


    Kris

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    Originally posted by 3g4me
    Why would you want to make children grow up faster? I know im not the only one who enjoyed the stress free magic of childhood. As a child your not supposed to be thinking about why some tasteless artist is killing your holiday icon. Your suppposed to be thinking about the spirit of Christmas and how many presents your going to get from santa. What makes this o.k. in some peoples eyes is that they believe in tasteless art and being different over the tradition of this country.
    In my opinion this is all just a publicity stunt.
    Jimmy WHO?
    oh Jimmy wright that guy who crucified santa in 2006. PATHETIC.
    The thing about "Good Art" is the fact that it is not always about being pretty, and more often then not it is about creating conversation and discussion, which quite frankly, this fellow has done... Good? Bad? All subjective, and as I have said more than once now, seeing the santa on a stick is only as traumatizing as the kids parents want to make it... If the parents actually have the ability to communicate, then it really is a non-issue.

    When I was a kid I loved wiley Coyote, and that Damn Road runner killed him every week! GI Joe Killed the Germans! Darth Vader was whacking the hand off of Luke skywalker! I could go on and on... Am I traumitized from my youth? probably, but not from this shit...

    the only thing this sculpture has done is offend you sensibilities... It hasn't destroyed anyones lives...
    Bob Blakeborough

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    I see what your saying, but not everybody shares your hip carefree parenting styles. The fact is that if it is offending the local parents that it should be taken off his lawn where children are FORCED to look at it everyday on the way to school. I dont like alot of stuff including sesamee street but you dont see me hanging big bird off my front porch (even though i could)

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    Originally posted by 3g4me
    I see what your saying, but not everybody shares your hip carefree parenting styles. The fact is that if it is offending the local parents that it should be taken off his lawn where children are FORCED to look at it everyday on the way to school. I dont like alot of stuff including sesamee street but you dont see me hanging big bird off my front porch (even though i could)
    If my kid went to the local playground with a foot tall mohawk and a death skull on his t-shirt, do other parents have the right to tell my kid to cut his hair and change his shirt because it offends them and they are worried about what there kids might think? Of course not?

    Now to take it one step further, what about if his T-Shirt was showing (as you say) Big Bird hanging on a cross? Would he then be required to take it off and not be allowed to wear it because some other kid thinks big bird is his best friend? Of course not...

    Now to go one step even further, what if he was in his own front yard, wearing this t-shirt, andsomeone says he is not allowed to because it is offensive... Would he then be required to remove it?

    where does it stop?

    Again, you may not like the subject matter, but the message is not santa deserves to die. the message is that people worship the commecialism of christmas like they do jesus. It is pretty simple to understand, like it or not.
    Last edited by tirebob; 12-14-2006 at 03:40 PM.
    Bob Blakeborough

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    When i was in grade school there was a dress code. a kid wearing a sesamee street charecter being killed would most definetly be asked to flip his/her shirt for the sake of all the other kids. Now what you let your kids get away with at home or "the playground" is totally up to you THE PARENT but im pretty sure that your kids are gonna have a hell of a time finding friends that parents allow this type of behaviour. I dont have any kids but i do have 3 siblings under 14. If my little sister came home and said she had a new friend his name is bing bong with a 3 ' mohawk and a skull shirt, i would most definetly wonder what type of parents this bing bong has and secondly wonder if this is the type of atmosphere i want my kid sister in. JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN DO THINGS LEGALY DOES NOT MEAN ITS MORALY EXCEPTABLE. We do live in a society with many different beliefs and if this so called "art" is offending all the local parents then i think it should be taken down.

    edit: I can understand what the "art" symbolizes but i HIGHLY doubt that a kid in grade 3 will understand. Go show that "art" to your 6 year old and tell me honestly that he will understand the meaning.
    Last edited by 3g4me; 12-14-2006 at 03:55 PM.

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    .
    Last edited by tirebob; 12-14-2006 at 04:41 PM.
    Bob Blakeborough

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    edit: I can understand what the "art" symbolizes but i HIGHLY doubt that a kid in grade 3 will understand. Go show that "art" to your 6 year old and tell me honestly that he will understand the meaning. [/B]
    This has been discussed with my kids, and while I do not have the ability to take my kids to see it in person, they does have some comprehension of it...

    Oh, I was that kid with the Mohawk and skull shirts... I had lots of partents lose it, and lots of parents who loved me hanging out with their kids. I have tattoo's (enough to count the amount in hours, not peices), and I am what you you probably call offensive. sadly, my actions in life are probably far more responsible and respectible that 98% of the people out there. See, rather than judging and pushing my hang ups on my kids, I educate them as to the real issues in life. If you ever met my kids, they by no means have lost any of their innocence and have a much greater respect and understanding of the world around them and tolerance for all the different people in it...
    Bob Blakeborough

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    Well im glad you have found an approach to parenting that works and i hope you keep it up man. even though even though we dont see eye to eye on this subject.

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    Originally posted by 3g4me
    Well im glad you have found an approach to parenting that works and i hope you keep it up man. even though even though we dont see eye to eye on this subject.
    Ahahahaa! Yeah man... Trust when I say I mean no offence by any of this, nor am I offended. I would have to say that I do see and get your point though... It is just I wanna do my best to change it! lol!

    Cheers!
    Bob Blakeborough

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    Man oh man, its seems that Madante's economic theory (based on the laws of S&D and logic) can solve this one.

    First off order the thing taken down, its offensive to the public and the public pays taxes to be protected from being offended. Second, here's a though, if this guy doesn't like the idea of gifts on Christmas ... THEN DONT BUY OR RECEIVE THEM. Why is this a hard concept? Keep your religious holiday beliefs to yourself rather than try to validate them to get others to feel the same way.
    Autosignature

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