Diagnosis...where is the problem...frustrated

[v2kai]

alright so my engine is royally screwed and i've been trying to determine where the problem lies...hopefully someone can give me a point in the direction of where my engine problems lie. i have another DOHC ZC 1.6 (non vtec) engine and i'm trying to figure out if i just need to swap the head (if thats where the problem is) or swap the whole engine if need be

symptoms:

-burns oil like a bitch

-also the way it burns, at startup a bit of a puff comes out and then it eases off...kind of like bad valve seals and it burns pretty bad at high revs. also if u let it idle for a long time, again big plume of smoke like bad valve seals....

-at idle with the oil cap off exhaust comes out of valve cover
(now i'm no licensed mechanic but from my very limited understanding of engines i'm pretty sure you shouldnt have exhaust coming out of your valve cover when the cap is removed.)

-very hard to start (probably due to the WAY off valve settings. have to give it gas to slowly get it going and once warmed up its a bit better)

-something is warped so i cannot perform a valve adjustment
(this head was hydrolocked and rebuilt (cant remember exactly how many valves were bent) and now most are completely backed off as much as possible and no clearance between the camshaft lobe and the rocker

-block was from a previously turbo-ed setup, we only honed it and re-ringed it (yes i know i shouldve bored it out but at the time that's all i was able to get done)

now i'm trying to determine if the leak is coming from below or above. basically i think its either combustion gases are seaping past the rings and into the oil pan and then making it up to the head. but to me that seams hard if the oil pump uptake is submerged in oil.... (again based on my limited knowledge of engines) ....or if the block and rings are fine and the problem lies only in the head and valves and oil is dripping into the combustion chamber... then all i have to do is replace the head and i'm sitting fine....

also if anyone can recommend a place to get a cheap leakdown test done or help me do one, would be greatly appreciated.

thanks for any thoughts or help

[Cheeze]

definately sounds like top end problems. Do you have access to a leak down tester? That will give you a general idea of where the problem is. Sounds to me like a valve seal went WAY south

[Slashin_]

compression test

possible bent valves.....

u shouldn't open valve cover cap when engine is running it shoot oil everywhere

check timing,
expand on why u cant adjust valves?

[v2kai]

Originally posted by Slashin_
compression test

possible bent valves.....

u shouldn't open valve cover cap when engine is running it shoot oil everywhere

check timing,
expand on why u cant adjust valves?

cant adjust valves because they are backed off completely to adjust for more clearance but still the rocker arm is in contact with the camshaft lobe. (i know i'm not supposed to open the cap but i did it to see what the hell was going on lol i had a hunch) i figured it was the head i paid 5 bills to get it rebuilt what a waste :P

[Slashin_]

i still dunt see how that possible u need like .7mm to fit in
new rockers from pick n pull so u can adjust valves

do compression test, smoke might be due to hot oil,cold weather

take out spark plug, shove a air shooter tool (compresser tool) and put paper towel on top see how much oil comes out

[v2kai]

no my clearances are something like .13 and .15
cant just get new rockers....i have a spare head sitting in my garage already thought of it, no dice.

when you turn the screw it lifts or lowers the pivot point of the rocker arm to increase or decrease the clearance
smoke isnt due to weather it was present way before the cold weather hit.
did compression test earlier, was a bit low but still fine


describe what i need and how i do this leakdown test you describe

[Slashin_]

too bad your dohc or i'd sell u my sohc rebuilt head....400 bux down the drain and didn't fix the problem

check timing
compression test


i think its a bent valve......or possible contaminated oil

[v2kai]

Originally posted by Slashin_
too bad your dohc or i'd sell u my sohc rebuilt head....400 bux down the drain and didn't fix the problem

check timing
compression test


i think its a bent valve......or possible contaminated oil

i've got a spare ehad ready to go but i dont want to swap it and find out i shouldve swapped the whole thing. but i'd rather no swap the whole thing if i can get away with just the head.
i dunno bout a bent valve its almost like the valves elongated or stretched ....i piddled with the timing earlier to help the starts a bit but at least the consensus so far is head is the bitch and what's gotta go. that's what i figured but i wanted a second opinion or two before i rip it off and actually swap it.

yea my head rebuild was a bloody was 5 bills down the tube. gay

[RickDaTuner]

your vehicles symptoms are synonymous with broken ring lands and for all intensive purposes a blown engine. My advice is buy a new block.

the moment you get smoke out from the oil fill galley, you're looking a blow by caused by worn rings, cracked block, broken ring lands,etc.... if you are experiencing puff of air coming out the oil fill galley then there is nothing to worry about.

hard start is suggestive of low compression, due to the aforementioned block components failing, the reduction of smoke after warm up is congruent with that symptom. engine warms up, rings expand, some compression is regained.

one quick way to know if you are getting blow by from the top or the bottom end is by the rate of expiration of freshly changed oil. if it takes only a few hundred Kms to turn the oil black its the block, if it take much longer like if a normal oil change would take, then it would be the valves.

oil loss due to heads is also associated with lifter noise, and other valve train deficiencies.

seriously though, if you are after knowing your engine more, than go ahead and try to diagnose this problem. If you are trying to cure your head ache, toss this block and purchase a new one

[v2kai]

Originally posted by RickDaTuner
your vehicles symptoms are synonymous with broken ring lands and for all intensive purposes a blown engine. My advice is buy a new block.

the moment you get smoke out from the oil fill galley, you're looking a blow by caused by worn rings, cracked block, broken ring lands,etc.... if you are experiencing puff of air coming out the oil fill galley then there is nothing to worry about.

hard start is suggestive of low compression, due to the aforementioned block components failing, the reduction of smoke after warm up is congruent with that symptom. engine warms up, rings expand, some compression is regained.

one quick way to know if you are getting blow by from the top or the bottom end is by the rate of expiration of freshly changed oil. if it takes only a few hundred Kms to turn the oil black its the block, if it take much longer like if a normal oil change would take, then it would be the valves.

oil loss due to heads is also associated with lifter noise, and other valve train deficiencies.

seriously though, if you are after knowing your engine more, than go ahead and try to diagnose this problem. If you are trying to cure your head ache, toss this block and purchase a new one

well the oil takes quite a while to expire....but i think it's hard to tell actually because of the rate at which i'm refilling with new stuff...i've got a lot of lifter noise....but maybe its both the head and the block (for sure the head).

now lets say it is both and i swap the head, do i run the risk of screwing up the good head by putting it on the bad block? or can i still try the head swap, see if it rectifies the problem and then if need be swap the block as well?

[Slashin_]

if its bad block why not change the block while your doing the head.....few extra hours

does it even drive.....starting to sound like my POS dead civic

[v2kai]

actually it still drives quite well once warmed up and still has balls too.....not sure if the block is bad....it was turboed and only honed...

just trying to see if anyone can give me a definite sort of answer if i could get away with just swapping the head....if not well, whole thing has gotta go. i'd still like to know tho....opinions on the symptoms

[RickDaTuner]

its really not worth risking a new top end to see if it will rectify the problem, you might finish destroying the engine, which would cause debris to run amuck in the oil venture and galleys, fouling your new head.

you can try it, but make sure you are doing it only as a diagnose, and not a permanent repair

[v2kai]

would a blown engine have valve adjustment problems too?

[ianmcc]

Quick and dirty test: start engine and give 'er gas. If it smokes while depressing gas it's the top end (valves). If it smokes when you lift it's lower end (rings).

[v2kai]

Originally posted by ianmcc
Quick and dirty test: start engine and give 'er gas. If it smokes while depressing gas it's the top end (valves). If it smokes when you lift it's lower end (rings).

i'll giver a try thanks

is this true? and can someone explain to me why...i assume on the gas the combustion pressure helps seal rings and higher rpms pumping more oil to the head so head problems would be more prominent and vice versa slower rpms off the gas relatively-poorer seal with the piston rings and less oil circulated to the top of the engine and through the head? am i correct?

on a side note anyone experienced an electrical problem when you high beam your gas gauge needle goes full? lol something is connected with something it shouldnt be

[v2kai]

update:

alrighty so we got around to doing a compression test today. also started work on cleaning up and prepping the new head...now it looks like i'm prepping the block too....with some slight upgrades of course.

compression test went poorly. spark plugs were interesting too.
yanked the plugs, the two outer cylinders were white (too hot) and the two center cylinders were kinda normal looking...little tannish-brown.

intial tests showed 135-95-95-130 (not so good)

dumped a little oil in the middle two and did er again, and sure enough 135-120-120-130

so looks like the rings are boned, on top of the head being fucked. so new second engine build and swap in starting stages now. strange thing is despite the crappy compression and fucked head and valves my car still pulls pretty damn hard....is this normal!?

[Slashin_]

change's are hard to notice,time goes by and compression gets less and less,so u think its pulling the same buts its not

damn drive hard and save for new block,don't bother throwing in new head, 135-95-95-130, is bad yo,
oil is quick fix,long term won't help

[v2kai]

yea i'm already in the rebuild of the new motor lol i figure the compression loss is affecting me i CAN tell just barely. cuz some buddies i used to beat are pulling on me slightly lol and cars i used to spank arent so easy lol but still keeps up and damn still suprised now that i know the condition of everything and the problems i've got in the dying engine.

on with the new and some upgrades too