Calgary Transit strike impending?

[mjt]

case in point, C-Train vs Skytrain in Vancouver.

The Skytrain is a completely automated LRT with no human driver on board.

Skytrain is automated because it is grade-separated and in the air. It is mostly power up and go. Here we have sections with different speeds. SOmeplaces it is 20 km/h. The max speed is 80 km/h. Skytrain does not have to interact with people or cars like the C-train does on 7 Ave. Aside from 7th Ave there are other problems like Snow and cold weather. How will an automated train know about the car that is blocking 7th ave during rush hour? In extreme cold the max posted speed drops from 80 km/h to 60 km/h. When it snows there are a few precautions that train drivers take. Snow and Cold like we get here is not even remotely found in Vancouver. Everyday of the week I have an average of 2 jaywalkers on 7th and a few others at pedestrian crossing at stations like Chinook and Sunnyside where the train has 100% of the right of way. Do you think a computer will see the person making a run for it ? Lastly, 7th Avenue has buses and EMS and police. Most of the time they follow rules of 7th Ave like never to exceeed 40 km/h and only exiting on a right turn at certain streets. Sometimes they don't and there's no way for a computer to react to those things.

[mjt]

This didn't answer my question. The question was why should the seniors get to pick the shifts they want instead of proper rotation where everyone gets a chance to do the good shifts?
Why should anyone get there pick and leave the not so great ones for everyone with less seniority?

Roadrage, there is no proper rotation. There are guys that have been on work for 20 straight years just because they are so senior. As far as good shifts go, I'm nearing 10 years. I have yet to see any of them. Can only hope to see some after some of these seniors retire.

Also...1 year on your file for a screwup...A speeding ticket stays longer on your drivers' abstract. For pete's sakes, even the weak Young Offenders Act doesn't remove your transgressions after only a year! Work 10 years and you could've had 10 screwups...nice gig and people would only see 1 screwup on your file. Great worker apparently.

That's city policy

I don't get it...someone who has passed probation is harder to disipline? Why is that? Not even talking about getting canned yet but to even disipline?

yes to your last comment. Permanant employees have more protection even without going to the union for help just based on the City's own internal policies. Probationary employees are not treated like real employees. Their mistakes are magnified. City is one of the hardest places to get permanant status.

[mjt]

The other thing that i am quite bitter about is unions. I hate unions. they have no place in this society anymore and they only serve the lazy bastards who have seniority and the union bosses.

That's your ideology. I agree to disagree with you.

My point of contention is that being a bus or train driver is NOT a skilled job and I do think that $60k for driving a bus is lot (something I just thought of now - do bus drivers get a full pension when they retire?). Teachers make less than that as do university profs. As other people have mentioned, police, fire and paramedics make less than that and god knows their jobs are more demanding than a bus driver and they're not even allowed to strike.

Pension plan is why many people joined in the first place.

[mjt]

So, if I understand this correctly.. the union doesn't want these new buses brought online, because then the city will start using them in places where the real small shuttle buses aren't enough, and full size buses are too much.. right?

Yes you are correct. Union wants only one type of Operator where anyone can drive any bus and get paid the same for it.

Then, on the other hand, the union says that there aren't enough employees to run the big buses, and that the city needs to hire more regular employee's to run more of the big buses (which it apparently doesn't need on some of these smaller routes that would be "cut" first due to low ridership if more transit drivers left)

And there's only 12 of these "super shuttles" being ordered.. so at any given time there would be 12 regular buses being used somewhere else? That would be 12 drivers of the big buses that could be freed up to provide other buses on routes that need it more.. where there currently aren't enough regular drivers to meet the need...

The city says it has 258 shuttle operators, and only 101 shuttle buses, that right?

There is no limit once they order the 12 they can order as many as they want and convert many routes over. It will eliminate jobs because Transit Operator and Shuttle Operator are separate jobs with separate pay but Job duties are identical albiet driving different vehicles. Some of the Transit Operators drive c-train as well. Under the City's proposal Shuttles will get paid about 10 dollars less an hour for driving a bus that is only 10 feet shorter. Shuttles are for areas that have low ridership or where the road cannot fit a full sized bus. Shuttle is primarily a part time position and many of those people are just doing it as a second job.

Sounds like the city is just trying make CT a little more efficient by adding another bus size to their lineup to service those routes that are middling between the little shuttles, and the big buses, and to take better advantage of their shuttle operator base. I'm not sure where all these "job cuts" would come from, especially if there are not enough drivers to fulfill all the routes with the big buses already...

Job Cuts will come when they convert the bus runs to shuttle runs and have no need for 'X' number of bus drivers, whatever the number may be. It may not come immediately. The economy will tank sooner or later and when it does the City will do this then.

My last question, is where did you get the fully loaded figure of 60 people on a bus that seats 24?

http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/...g_capacity.html

Hey, if I'm wrong, let me know..

calgary transit (what they distributed at dispatch offices in garages) and also union.

[mjt]

Transit is a monopoly. Theres laws protecting transits monopoly. I wish there was an alternative to city transit (ie. a privatized transit system) but there isnt. So when driving or walking arent an option, I am forced to use the public transit system.

If you want a private system then I'll give you vancouver as an example. They dropped all ridership routes, fares were increased, electronic fareboxes were adopted and there are different fare zones. For example if you live in Rockyridge and want to visit your cousin in Copperfield with Transit, in theory you can do it for 2.25 and one transfer going one way. In vancouver you would get dinged 3 times for the same distance. Vancouver also has automated trains. Find someone to buy all c-train stations, park'n'ride lots, buses ($400,000 each) and all the trains (millions for each car) and it will happen.

-You complain a lot about your job and how much you dont like the passengers. Well, why dont you quit your job? You complain your pay is too low for what you put up with. Why dont you quit your job? Clearly something keeps you there. Its the money. I cant stand these a-hole busdrivers who are fuckin bitter every day, day after day. If you hate your job, the quit. Ah, but your lazy uneducated ass wouldnt hack it in the real world an youd probably be working of 1/2 or 1/3 of your transit salary.

I don't hate my job. I enjoy it. Some routes are less enjoyable then others but overall I enjoy it. I think a lot of people who are posting here wouldn't be able to do it. There is a need for it and in fact a shortage of people to do it. All we need is fair working conditions. I haven't quit to do to the seniority that I've built up along with my pension. I'm going to retire in a few years. I have no ambition on being badge #1 when I'm in my 80s. I got better things to do.

[mjt]

my wife is currently downtown waiting for a bus. has been there since 5:12 pm, it is now 6:30 and still a bus has not come by. apparently there are 25-30 people there waiting.

With the work to rule many express buses and school runs have been cut due to lack of manpower. That is a management issue. Phone 262-1000 or your alderman and complain. Why can't the city adequately staff buses? If they cut buses then why not tell the public?

[mjt]

It still comes down to money in the end. If transit drivers just accepted less dollars per hour than the city wouldn't need to look for alternate ways to cut costs.

Solution: Drivers accept smaller wages and the city can afford more drivers.

I have got a better one: Why not roll back the 10% increases alderman got first. Then we'll talk.

[mjt]

CT managment can fire all of them at once, but then there would be no one to do the job. It's a strength in numbers thing.

Strength in numbers is the whole point of having a union.

[mjt]

How can it be about saving your jobs when CT is currently looking at hiring 100 drivers and mechanical staff?

After every boom is a BUST.

[mjt]

As much as I appreciate you explaining proper bus-stop procedure, I can assure you, I'm a vetran. My wife and I, and our stoller, as well as two other people at the stop were in plain view, and clustered around the bench. As far as I can tell, the half-full bus came around the corner too fast, and the bus driver decided he wasn't going to try to stop. He could have stopped safely 50 feet away and waited - But he didn't.

Sounds like you have a legit complaint. If he gets asked then about the only thing he could say is that you weren't at the bus stop pole (which technically is the stop and not the bench).

We did call in a complaint when we got home. Not being experience with bus-stop crime scenes, however, we neglected to take down the names and contact information of witnesses, so will unfortunately be unable to meet the criteria of CTs complaint process. We made the complaint as a matter of due diligence, but considering the driver is Union, we're not expecting much in the way of outcome

some complaints do get brought out but it depends usually on things like details and witnesses. They generally try to target people who are repeat offenders for similar complaints or someone that does something blatently stupid. With enough complaints supervisors will follow and even ride buses undercover and in unmarked vans. When they bust someone they go all out and normally discipline follows.

Workers rights are protected by Law. Unions are syndicates of those who think they deserve more "Rights" than the rest, and will engage in blackmail and thuggery to get it.

In some cases, legislated workers rights may be decicient. In that case, we should work to improve conditions and circumstances for all - Not just a few.

Calgary is not the only place with a Transit Union. New York and many places all over North America have it.

[mjt]

Unions were great, but now that we have labor laws, they are (almost always) useless in a capitalistic society... Kick em out, unless your one of those lazy slackers who enjoys doing next to nothing and getting top rate and seniority on vacation, while the new guy is working is ass off just to keep his job, that he doesn't enjoy at all.

abolishing the union would be hard to do. What is more likely is election of a new executive committee but still same members and same union.

[Roadrage]

Originally posted by mjt
Sounds like you have a legit complaint. If he gets asked then about the only thing he could say is that you weren't at the bus stop pole (which technically is the stop and not the bench).

So...the bus stop pole is technically the stop and not the bench next to it? Does that mean anyone standing inside one of the "bus shelters" technically isn't at the bus stop? What are people supposed to do...huddle around a pole just to ensure the driver knows your waiting for the bus?

Originally posted by mjt
some complaints do get brought out but it depends usually on things like details and witnesses. They generally try to target people who are repeat offenders for similar complaints or someone that does something blatently stupid. With enough complaints supervisors will follow and even ride buses undercover and in unmarked vans. When they bust someone they go all out and normally discipline follows.

You said in an earlier post that people who call in to complain usually have the complaints filtered out or ripped up. If that's the case, how is anyone going to know they are repeat offenders for similar complaints? Supervisors would never know.

I didn't know that making a complaint about a bus driver or any city worker was like an accident scene where I need to get all pertinent information of the other waiting riders/users before reporting it.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by mjt


Job Cuts will come when they convert the bus runs to shuttle runs and have no need for 'X' number of bus drivers, whatever the number may be. It may not come immediately. The economy will tank sooner or later and when it does the City will do this then.

mjt, kudos to you for answering all the questions so well, and not getting all up in arms at the abusive comments. You've done a great job so far.

Now, what I still don't get is, what job cuts? There's not enough drivers no as CT is so short-staffed and covering a lot of routes by OT. You tell us there are going to be mass retireee's, so CT is going to be more short-staffed in the future.. why not allow the "shuttles" and convert the runs that don't need full buses.

Then, the bottom line at CT stays roughly the same, all the routes will be covered, customers will be kept happy, and CT is able to cope with the shortage of "regular drivers" on an ongoing basis.

I do agree with you that after every boom there is a slowdown, but thats no excuse for allowing a business to bloat out of control, then having to support that bloated dinosaur during the downturn with higher taxes/fares etc. Thinking a little further about this, it's starting to look more to me like the union is trying to protect a situation that allows them to earn craploads of OT, and CT is trying to eliminate that situation.

[TimG]

props to mjt for keeping things civilized I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

slightly off topic tho, you said that there were talks about changing the trains to 4 cars. I heard about this last year.

Will a 4 car train even fit on a city block downtown without blocking N/S traffic? is there even room to extend the platforms downtown to accomodate 4 cars?

abolishing the union would be hard to do. What is more likely is election of a new executive committee but still same members and same union.

or CT can do what Regan did in the 80s with the air traffic controllers.

fire everyone and then re-hire them with a stipulation that they be union-free

[mjt]

So...the bus stop pole is technically the stop and not the bench next to it? Does that mean anyone standing inside one of the "bus shelters" technically isn't at the bus stop? What are people supposed to do...huddle around a pole just to ensure the driver knows your waiting for the bus?

Roadrage: Yes, technically the pole is the stop. Anyone that's driven bus for awhile knows how to read body language to be able to tell that if a person is just walking or if they want the bus. There are some tricky stops around the city where you think there's no one there and a guy's hiding behind the fence and just pops out when you are passing the stop at 50 km/h. There is one like this on the bridge crowchild to glenmore east. Most of the other traffic there is doing around 80 so its not safe to just slam the brakes and stop. People have to make themselves visible in these spots. In that situation if I don't see you I can't stop. Each situation is different. If it is a residential area on a quiet street and no one is around and I see someone running even if there's no stop around, I'll stop because that's what the bus is for. It is for the people. I don't believe in leaving anyone behind unless I have to (when it gets too packed for 1 bus).


[quote]You said in an earlier post that people who call in to complain usually have the complaints filtered out or ripped up. If that's the case, how is anyone going to know they are repeat offenders for similar complaints? Supervisors would never know.

Yea they filter out a lot of complaints. There are a lot of bogus complaints. Anything about bus being late or too packed and forcing people to wait for another is usually just heard and not even processed. In those cases the driver can't do anything about it and if he/she calls it on the radio they have covered themselves. The 'driver didn't stop for me' complaints go 50/50. Comes down to details and witnesses. Samething with complaints about drivers who drive dangerously for example run a stop sign or cut someone off. Stuff that makes it through to the supervisor is printed off by them and that immediate supervisor of the driver involved at bare minimum has to go out and talk to the driver on the job about it and if it is serious enough they will discipline the driver or if the driver gives a satisfactory answer to their questions regarding 'what happened' then usually it is ripped up. Either way supervisor will usually get back to whoever phoned it in the first place. If someone leaves a fake name and fake number, the complaint will be withdrawn.

I didn't know that making a complaint about a bus driver or any city worker was like an accident scene where I need to get all pertinent information of the other waiting riders/users before reporting it.

It has come to that because of the City's own rules protecting employees from allegations of any kind. On top of that almost all city employees have union protection.

[mjt]

Now, what I still don't get is, what job cuts? There's not enough drivers no as CT is so short-staffed and covering a lot of routes by OT. You tell us there are going to be mass retireee's, so CT is going to be more short-staffed in the future.. why not allow the "shuttles" and convert the runs that don't need full buses.

The problem is not the immediate future. At least until the end of this deal whenever it happens (ending 2009) both sides are expecting the economy to remain strong. There is nothing limiting increasing shuttle v.s. bus operation. When things go downhill in the economy there's a good chance that shuttles will be increased.

Then, the bottom line at CT stays roughly the same, all the routes will be covered, customers will be kept happy, and CT is able to cope with the shortage of "regular drivers" on an ongoing basis.

Customers may be happy but shuttle drivers want to be paid the same as a bus driver for driving what is for all intensive purposes the same as a regular bus minus 10 feet in length.

I do agree with you that after every boom there is a slowdown, but thats no excuse for allowing a business to bloat out of control, then having to support that bloated dinosaur during the downturn with higher taxes/fares etc. Thinking a little further about this, it's starting to look more to me like the union is trying to protect a situation that allows them to earn craploads of OT, and CT is trying to eliminate that situation.

Fares only cover about 45% of the operation and 55% comes from taxes. Fares on c-train is hardly enforced. My position and that of the union is that the city should hire more drivers so that most drivers aren't expected to work overtime on a regular basis. I don't mind it every now and then but to get voicemails on your day off at home and on the cell is a little too much. THat's what it was like. Being trained on both bus and train means loads of overtime. There are some days where I do both in the same day. There have been day off that I did 9 hours and on the way home I got called to do another 2 hour piece but I declined it. Only way to fix the situation is hire more Transit Operators and to stop forcing junior employees onto c-train. They need a better system where only those that want to come on trains come on. Forced employees normally do the training because they are probationary and have no choice. They opt-off usually and never return once they get permanant.

[mjt]

slightly off topic tho, you said that there were talks about changing the trains to 4 cars. I heard about this last year.

Will a 4 car train even fit on a city block downtown without blocking N/S traffic? is there even room to extend the platforms downtown to accomodate 4 cars?

TimG, the block with prob is 3st to 4st on 7 ave. It is known as the 'short block'. IT can't even fit a 3 car train. One jaywalker and the train has to stop and the intersection is blocked. The only way it would work is to have 4st station extend out more towards 5st and for the traffic lights of 3 st and 4 st to be tied together to hold green whenever a train is on the rails otherwise constantly trains would be blocking intersections there. Platforms and traffic lights are not really the big issue. In places like around Erlton for sure they have to upgrade all the substations to supply enough power.

CT can do what Regan did in the 80s with the air traffic controllers.

fire everyone and then re-hire them with a stipulation that they be union-free

They can try but there are many 'union brothers' who would never come back as well as new employees.

Anyways latest word on the strike is that even if we vote for a strike tommorow it won't start on Monday (may 7) as reported in the media. There will be a separate meeting at a later date to decide if it will be a full blown strike and if it will be in may,june or july etc.

[Rav4Guy]

this is where unions make it difficult because ultimately when one person complains, so does everyone else. Kind of sad that unions demand more money and more benefits every year.

[Roadrage]

mjt...Thanks for trying to explain the unions side. I may not agree with everything you've said but thanks for taking the time to give us your side of the story.

[Toms-SC]

Originally posted by Rav4Guy
Kind of sad that unions demand more money and more benefits every year.

Geese not like you would not want the same.