The Beyond 2008 F1 Season Thread

[iceburns288]

I took ryanallan's suggestion and went ahead with the new '08 season thread as testing is starting. Here is the schedule for the 2008 season:

Australian GP (Melbourne)
Malaysian GP (Kuala Lumpur)
Bahrain GP (Bahrain)
Spanish GP (Catalunya)
Turkish GP (Istanbul)
Monaco GP (Monte Carlo)
Canadian GP (Montreal)
French GP (Magny-Cours)
British GP (Silverstone)
German GP (Hockenheim)
Hungarian GP (Budapest)
European GP (Valencia)
Belgian GP (Spa-Francorchamps)
Italian GP (Monza)
Singapore GP (Singapore)
Japanese GP (Fuji)
Chinese GP (Shanghai)
Brazilian GP (Sao Paulo)

Notice the return of Magny-Cours and Silverstone, the moving of the European and German GPs to Valencia and Hockenheim, and the addition of the Singapore GP.

[ryanallan]

So are all these dates confirmed ?

Man this year is really going to be interesting with the new "GAY" spec ecu, and no traction controll. Winter testing will be especally inerestiing as we will who the good drivers really are.

go Vettel / M.S !

[seer_claw]

The Chinese GP should be interesting this year as they plan to run it at night. I was reading that they are thinking of installing lights on the cars. It should be interesting to see what will happen along those lines.

[Team_Mclaren]

^^ its Singapore that they're going to run at night.


So it looks like CAD GP is gonna be around june again, hmm interesting.

[962 kid]

psh... you just wanted to make the thread 2 years in a row. bastard

[buh_buh]

can't wait til Singapore! And German grand prix for other reasons

[rage2]

Originally posted by ryanallan
Man this year is really going to be interesting with the new "GAY" spec ecu, and no traction controll. Winter testing will be especally inerestiing as we will who the good drivers really are.

What's so "gay" about the new spec ECU? Renault was just being a baby about it... every team has to do the same thing and adapt to a new ECU.

At the end of the 2006 season, all teams worked with the McLaren/Microsoft partnership to scope out required features. Everyone got what they needed in the system. By early 2007, a reference design was available for all teams. EVERY team (including McLaren) had to design their 2007 cars around the spec ECU, and to adapt their other systems to talk to the new ECU properly. If anything, without traction control, 90% of the complexities of ECU talking to other systems is gone. It's a pretty straight forward affair now.

[Dave P]

man ohhh man i cant wait for MTL this year.


A week of cars, booze, and super contact.

[cloud7]

Originally posted by ryanallan
So are all these dates confirmed ?

Man this year is really going to be interesting with the new "GAY" spec ecu, and no traction controll. Winter testing will be especally inerestiing as we will who the good drivers really are.

There is nothing "gay" about seeing who the good drivers really are.

[ryanallan]

Originally posted by rage2

What's so "gay" about the new spec ECU? Renault was just being a baby about it... every team has to do the same thing and adapt to a new ECU.

At the end of the 2006 season, all teams worked with the McLaren/Microsoft partnership to scope out required features. Everyone got what they needed in the system. By early 2007, a reference design was available for all teams. EVERY team (including McLaren) had to design their 2007 cars around the spec ECU, and to adapt their other systems to talk to the new ECU properly. If anything, without traction control, 90% of the complexities of ECU talking to other systems is gone. It's a pretty straight forward affair now.

I am not with or against Renault here, and I am aware of all teams having access to this - now one year old - ECU during last years development time.
Like I have said before, I don’t like the idea of F1 moving towards a spec series. With the tyres, engines, and now the ECU controlled, this seems to be the path F1 is taking.

F1 is the panicle of motorsports not just because they pay the drivers the most money. Engineering, design, and research are also very large parts of the sport.

I think Renault was trying to make the point that they had developed a bespoke system tailored to how their team operates (like how they record data, how they process the data, how they tune the engine to varying conditions, or even how they develop software), and now have to change.
What they got out of the new system was a compromise. Renault has even said that a considerable amount of time had been spent on integrating the new system into their team.

And 90% of the ECUs function was TC ? I don’t have hard numbers and im sure you don’t either, but come on. The ECU also has to operate: engine performance (heating/cooling, air/fuel ...etc), ABS, data processing, and im sure there are more.
I would think the Pneumatic/ignition/fuel injection systems would take the most computing power. Based on that, Id say TC would take maybe 10% of all onboard computing power.

Originally posted by cloud7


There is nothing "gay" about seeing who the good drivers really are.

Did I say or even imply that ?

The part of that you didn’t include in your quote actually cheered on a couple of the better drivers in the field. I would love to see Vettel win a couple races here or there.

[Dave P]

Toyota will reveal their 2008 challenger, the TF108, on January 10, it was announced on Tuesday. The new car will be unveiled to the media at the Japanese team’s technical centre in Cologne, Germany.

The squad’s drivers, including recently-confirmed race driver Timo Glock will be in attendance at the special event, alongside members of the team's management.

Toyota endured a tough 2007 campaign, ending the season sixth in the standings, after scoring 13 world championship points.







The BMW Sauber F1.08 will be unveiled to the public in Germany on January 14, the team announced on Wednesday. The wraps will come off the car in Munich at BMW Welt, the new BMW vehicle delivery centre.

Drivers Nick Heidfeld and Robert Kubica, BMW Motorsport Director Mario Theissen, technical director Willy Rampf and Peter Sauber will all be present at the launch of the team’s 2008 contender. The F1.08 will then get its first track outing in Valencia, Spain on January 15.

The squad will be hoping the new machine allows them to build on their impressive 2007 season, which saw them finish second in the constructors’ championship with 101 points.

[rage2]

Originally posted by ryanallan
I am not with or against Renault here, and I am aware of all teams having access to this - now one year old - ECU during last years development time.
Like I have said before, I don’t like the idea of F1 moving towards a spec series. With the tyres, engines, and now the ECU controlled, this seems to be the path F1 is taking.

The whole reason for the spec ECU is to stop people from cheating. Remember when TC was first banned and Schumacher/Benetton was busted for having TC code on the ECU that could be secretly triggered? Or Ferrari's gear based power strategy? It's impossible to police, that's why the FIA caved and allowed TC to come back. With a spec ECU with NO functionality for speed or gear based power maps, traction control is fully banned and nobody can cheat. This is why they planned on introducing this 3 or 4 years ago to stop the cheating.

Originally posted by ryanallan
And 90% of the ECUs function was TC ? I don’t have hard numbers and im sure you don’t either, but come on.

90% of the complexity, not 90% of the functionality. Engine management is a very simple functionality.

[Dave P]

Formula One teams will test slick tires during the year end test in Jerez, Spain next month.
According to a report in a Dutch racing magazine, Bridgestone will supply each team at the test with three sets of slick tires.
The Japanese manufacturer is interested in gathering data for the 2009 season, which could see a return to slicks. Currently, GP2 cars all use slick tires which are supplied by Bridgestone.
In 1998, Formula One teams started using grooved tires in a bid to try and bring speeds down. It was hoped that slicks could replace grooves as early as next season, but that idea was abandoned in favour of more testing.
Teams have agreed that any mileage completed using slicks will not count towards the total testing miles for the year.

[hks]

http://planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2895202,00.html

[ryanallan]

Originally posted by rage2

The whole reason for the spec ECU is to stop people from cheating. Remember when TC was first banned and Schumacher/Benetton was busted for having TC code on the ECU that could be secretly triggered? Or Ferrari's gear based power strategy? It's impossible to police, that's why the FIA caved and allowed TC to come back. With a spec ECU with NO functionality for speed or gear based power maps, traction control is fully banned and nobody can cheat. This is why they planned on introducing this 3 or 4 years ago to stop the cheating.

90% of the complexity, not 90% of the functionality. Engine management is a very simple functionality.

I actually was not aware of the Ferrari/Benetton incidents, but I still think the FIA could have done something other than spec all the ECUs.

And engine management is not very simple. Consider the engines used in F1, they monitor everything from combustion temp, combustion pressure, air/fuel density, spark temp/duration, and valve lift/duration, to even guessing the torque the engine is producing. They then use all this info to optimize the next combustion.
And considering the 2.4L engines produce about 700hp, that’s almost 300hp/L. Tell me the complexity of code used to run such an engine with such precision and control is simple. I don’t even want to guess how many lines of code needed or the complexity of the algorithms used.
Based on that I would guess the ECU spends most of its time and processing power on engine management.

[Dave P]

There will not be 12 Formula One teams lining up on the starting grid in Melbourne next March.

Prodrive boss David Richards tells the German publication Auto, Motor und Sport that his plans to field a startup operation are on hold until a new Concorde Agreement can be finalized and agreed upon.

"We asked the FIA to be able to start mid-way through the season, and our request was rejected,” Richards tells the magazine. "So for 2008 there is not a realistic chance of there being a Prodrive F1 team."

Prodrive was selected from almost two dozen applications to be the 12th team in Formula One in 2008. Richards made it quite clear from the start that he intended to take advantage of new rules which permitted the use of 'customer' cars rather than build everything from scratch.

Prodrive was set to announce a chassis and engine deal with McLaren until several teams, notably Spyker/Force India and Williams, challenged the eligibility of customer cars under the agreement. Those challenges have forced Richards to put his deal on hold until a ruling is handed down.





"Our ambition is still to be in F1," said Richards. "We must wait for the new Concorde; only then can we fully assess our options."

[rage2]

Renault is fucked haha.

McLaren are adamant that rivals Renault did gain a 'clear benefit and unfair advantage' from the use of the intellectual property that is at the centre of the latest spy controversy surrounding the French car manufacturer, autosport.com has learned.

In a legal submission lodged with the FIA ahead of Renault's appearance before the World Motor Sport Council next month, McLaren's solicitors leave the FIA in no doubt about how seriously they are taking the matter.

And they are sure that the information former McLaren engineer Phil Mackareth is alleged to have taken with him to Renault in September 2006 was used to the French car manufacturer's benefit.

In the statement, the solicitors state: "It is clear that McLaren's confidential design information was knowingly, deliberately and widely disseminated and discussed within the Renault F1 design and engineering team, thereby providing them [the Renault F1 design and engineering team] with a clear benefit and unfair advantage."

According to sources, McLaren's solicitors have also expressed some frustration at the way Renault have dealt with the matter.

It is understood that the solicitors have complained in writing to Renault about the 'cavalier attitude' on the part of senior Renault F1 personnel during the investigation, and also that some submissions from Renault staff are "incomplete" or "misleading", as well as that some members have allegedly provided contradictory witness statements.

Renault are due to face the FIA on December 6 to answer charges that they had unauthorized possession of intellectual property belonging to McLaren.

The exact nature of this information has also been made clear in the FIA submission. It has been revealed that the matter revolves around 33 files of confidential technical information that was copied onto 11 old-style floppy discs.

It is understood these files contained more than 780 individual drawings that outlined the entire technical blueprint of the 2006 and 2007 McLaren car. The figure of 780 drawings is very similar to the number of drawings in the Ferrari dossier that McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan was found to have in his possession earlier this year.

McLaren's lawyers argue that their team's files were discussed by up to 18 Renault personnel, involving at least seven senior staff members including chief designer Tim Densham, deputy technical director James Allison and head of R&D Robin Tuluie.

That's much worse than the McLaren/Ferrari Saga. Knowing the FIA and how much Mosley hates Ron Dennis and McLaren, they're probably going to let them off with a slap on the wrist just so he can rub it in Ron Dennis's face.

I guess this also explains why Alonso has not rushed to sign on with Renault yet... waiting to see how this may affect him. At this rate, the rumors of Alonso joining Ross Brawn at Honda may actually come true. It's too bad the whole StepneyGate thing happened, because if it didn't, Coghlan and Stepney would've been at Honda too. That would surely kickstart the team and help them back to the top.

[Dave P]

^^^^


i bet ferrari is behind this somehow hahaha.

[rage2]

Originally posted by ryanallan
I actually was not aware of the Ferrari/Benetton incidents, but I still think the FIA could have done something other than spec all the ECUs.

More to the Ferrari/Benetton incidents, of which both happened with Michael Schumacher behind the wheel...

So when they were tendering offers for spec ECUs, It was MES (McLaren/Microsoft), Motec, and Magnetti Marelli. The reason why MES was chosen was because the FIA dropped Motec from the list because the '94 Benetton used Motec management, where the hidden TC code could be triggered with a sequence of buttons on the steering wheel. FIA then dropped Marelli because they also had hidden TC within their ECU in '01 with Ferrari. So MES was chosen by default, definately not FIA's first choice.

Originally posted by ryanallan
And engine management is not very simple. Consider the engines used in F1, they monitor everything from combustion temp, combustion pressure, air/fuel density, spark temp/duration, and valve lift/duration, to even guessing the torque the engine is producing. They then use all this info to optimize the next combustion.

Something that the current Motronics systems are doing in most German cars. It's not that tough haha.

Originally posted by ryanallan
And considering the 2.4L engines produce about 700hp, that’s almost 300hp/L. Tell me the complexity of code used to run such an engine with such precision and control is simple. I don’t even want to guess how many lines of code needed or the complexity of the algorithms used.
Based on that I would guess the ECU spends most of its time and processing power on engine management.

Nah, 300hp/L is all from revs, so it's basically the same functionality as our road cars, just at a faster pace, requiring faster and more accurate sensors. Even so, if you've seen the code of an older ECU, you'd realize it does nothing 90% of the time. For example, the Honda OBDI ecu's, which has been disassembled to hell, 90% of the time the ECU is idle waiting for the next cycle. Of course, that's with a slow ass 8-bit CPU and a simple dual 2D maps. Scale up to current 32-bit ECU's, and there's a LOT of idle time, even while reading, measuring, and reacting to the hundreds of sensors monitoring everything over 20 different 3D maps.

I did a bunch of simple traction control stuff on the OBD1 Honda ECU's, and the variables involved are MUCH more complex than combustion management. Luckily, there's 90% idle time for the ECU to handle all that stuff.

[ryanallan]

I was under the impression that current “state of the art” engine management systems actually use more than 1 or 2 3D maps, they use an infinite number of maps. So after every combustion the ECU would store and analyze the data. Using this historical data, the ECU would construct its own maps, and add them to the pile. However, the ECU does not just determine how much fuel and spark to give, it must also operate the Pneumatic valve system, power delivery to the seamless-shift transmission system, and im sure there are others. The fact that the ECU must monitor, store, analyze and look for trends, and execute actions for hundreds of variables once every 0.001 seconds just seems complicated to me.

I was also under the impression that this is pretty much how traction control systems work; gathering and storing data, looking for trends, comparing the trends to current data, and finally executing an action.