Vince Li - Greyhound Bus Attack

[FraserB]

Originally posted by Seth1968
I new almost nothing about PTSD until this thread.

I did some net research on the subject, and came up with one question.

Am I wrong in seeing that the issue is being covered up?

I wouldn't say covered up. But if you look at the fields in which it is more likely to show up, there is probably a culture in these professions that might prevent people from seeking help with it. I'd also think that having an overall culture that stops people from seeking help with mental health issues is a huge part of this as well.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by Seth1968

Am I wrong in seeing that the issue is being covered up?

I'm not sure what covered up means.

Someone with PTSD needs a solid support system, which includes a family, supportive friends, a shrink, and a doctor willing to prescribe the right meds.

As long as all of the above are in place, recovery is possible.

I really don't know what "Covered up" means, or what the converse is.... This is an individual issue, and ensuring that the person receives the support necessary should be sufficient. I don't know that any awareness outside of the sufferer, and their support system, is necessary.

Perhaps the real challenge is recognizing it.... The sufferer may well cover up that they're losing their marbles (If they even recognize it), and it can be doubly difficult for peers/colleagues to pick up on it.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by FraserB


I wouldn't say covered up. But if you look at the fields in which it is more likely to show up, there is probably a culture in these professions that might prevent people from seeking help with it. .

I think you just just clued me into something I didn't recognize before.

For some soldiers, they may experience PTSD after coming back from a deployment.... The emotional firewalls come down, and the flood of madness begins. But it's history at that point, and can be dealt with as such.

But what of those whose work is ongoing, and the circumstances leading to PTSD are ever present? They never actually leave the frying pan, and the stress builds up. Admitting such a problem could mean time off work, time away from work... questions... A loss of peer-status, in what is likely a testosterone heavy field.

I think most of us would prefer to known as "Hey, that's chuck, he's fucking crazy! That boy goes fucking hard... watch him go!!", rather than "Yea, that's chuck... he had to take a few weeks off to take care of himself... The job got to him...".

Really, I'm just thinking out loud, but where I really think I'm going with this is to suggest that the responsibility and ability to take care of ones self......lies with ones self.

[duaner]

Came across this yesterday: http://www.tema.ca/

The video is worth watching.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Vince Li might be 100% free on his own soon:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...doms-1.3968826

Makes you wonder what kind of sentence this guy might get, and how much of it he will actually serve before being "rehabilitated", or if he is deemed not criminally responsible. Hopefully they aren't easy on him.

[Majestic12]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
Vince Li might be 100% free on his own soon:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...doms-1.3968826

Makes you wonder what kind of sentence this guy might get, and how much of it he will actually serve before being "rehabilitated", or if he is deemed not criminally responsible. Hopefully they aren't easy on him.

Wrong thread for this, but NCR isn't some get out of jail free card.

[Majestic12]

What is it with people thinking NCR is just some random hail Mary defense they throw out there to see if it works?

[vengie]

Originally posted by Majestic12
What is it with people thinking NCR is just some random hail Mary defense they throw out there to see if it works?

Because it is utilized in damn near every single high profile case that is covered by the media.

[Majestic12]

It's a plea that takes a lot of careful planning and study. You don't just say, "hey, let's give NCR a try" if things are going poorly for you. And again, it's not some get out of jail free card.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by vengie


Because it is utilized in damn near every single high profile case that is covered by the media.

Also it can work - if Vince Li gets approved (I keep using him as an example because it's in the news right now), he is 100% free and unsupervised going forward. It's probably not that hard to argue that someone who would do this to a family is mentally ill but who knows, I'm not following the case that closely. For Vince Li a get out of jail free card is exactly what it is I mean he served some time still and got 'care' but considering what he did, being 100% free a little while later is a pretty favorable outcome for him.

[Majestic12]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt


Also it can work - if Vince Li gets approved (I keep using him as an example because it's in the news right now), he is 100% free and unsupervised going forward. It's probably not that hard to argue that someone who would do this to a family is mentally ill but who knows, I'm not following the case that closely. For Vince Li a get out of jail free card is exactly what it is I mean he served some time still and got 'care' but considering what he did, being 100% free a little while later is a pretty favorable outcome for him.

It's not just that he's "mentally ill". It's a very specific and very narrow category of mental illness that would even be put forward as a potential NCR, let alone one that would succeed.

Also, he didn't serve ANY time. He hasn't gone through the prison system at all. And if anything, NCR has the potential to be even longer than a standard prison sentence. If you never improve, you're never released from care.

In Vince Li's case, having him let out should be seen as a SUCCESS, because it means the health care system did its job properly.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by Majestic12
In Vince Li's case, having him let out should be seen as a SUCCESS, because it means the health care system did its job properly.

Who is going to guarantee that he's never going to go off and do the same thing again? Frankly if you've shown the capability in the past to decapitate someone and eat them you should be removed from society. What happens if he has a relapse/stops taking meds? Lock him up and throw away the key is my vote.

[Majestic12]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin


Who is going to guarantee that he's never going to go off and do the same thing again? Frankly if you've shown the capability in the past to decapitate someone and eat them you should be removed from society. What happens if he has a relapse/stops taking meds? Lock him up and throw away the key is my vote.

There's no guarantee about anybody. There's no guarantee you won't go off and kill someone. There's no guarantee that a convict that served his sentence won't go off and do it again after getting out. There's no guarantee Vince Li won't do it again, but his physicians all say he's gone through a fantastic recovery process.

Should we just imprison everyone indefinitely because there's no guarantees ever?

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by Majestic12


In Vince Li's case, having him let out should be seen as a SUCCESS, because it means the health care system did its job properly.

A success? Until he does it again...

Past behavior is by far the best predictor of future behavior. It's more likely he will do it again than he won't. Releasing him is honestly quite terrifying. The only way to guarantee people don't re-offend heinous crimes is lifetime incarceration or the death penalty. This could not be farther from a definite "success" because we can't see the future.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Majestic12


There's no guarantee about anybody. There's no guarantee you won't go off and kill someone. There's no guarantee that a convict that served his sentence won't go off and do it again after getting out. There's no guarantee Vince Li won't do it again, but his physicians all say he's gone through a fantastic recovery process.

Should we just imprison everyone indefinitely because there's no guarantees ever?

Yes.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by Majestic12


There's no guarantee about anybody. There's no guarantee you won't go off and kill someone. There's no guarantee that a convict that served his sentence won't go off and do it again after getting out. There's no guarantee Vince Li won't do it again, but his physicians all say he's gone through a fantastic recovery process.

Should we just imprison everyone indefinitely because there's no guarantees ever?

With that same logic we should just ask people already in prison not to re-offend, and release everyone. Especially with a field so subjective and unknown to us as mental illness I think releasing someone like that is a terrible idea.

Just a different opinion I guess. I've always believed that past a certain point, you don't get a second chance. Cut some guys head off on a bus, regardless of the reason, you should never see the light of day again. Same with Garland - he should get the death penalty or put away for his entire life, but chances are he will be out on parole at some point because Canada. Look at Daniel Tschetter - killed a family of 5 and got what, 3 years or so?

[Majestic12]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt


A success? Until he does it again...

Past behavior is by far the best predictor of future behavior. It's more likely he will do it again than he won't. Releasing him is honestly quite terrifying. The only way to guarantee people don't re-offend heinous crimes is lifetime incarceration or the death penalty. This could not be farther from a definite "success" because we can't see the future.

He's been going through stages where he's given more and more freedom. Haven't heard anything yet about him killing anybody else. Have you? How is it more likely, and why do his doctors disagree with you?

In the past, he wasn't diagnosed and he wasn't medicated. Now he is. Yet now it's more likely that he'll do it again than not? How does that work?

[Majestic12]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt


With that same logic we should just ask people already in prison not to re-offend, and release everyone. Especially with a field so subjective and unknown to us as mental illness I think releasing someone like that is a terrible idea.

Just a different opinion I guess. I've always believed that past a certain point, you don't get a second chance. Cut some guys head off on a bus, regardless of the reason, you should never see the light of day again. Same with Garland - he should get the death penalty or put away for his entire life, but chances are he will be out on parole at some point because Canada. Look at Daniel Tschetter - killed a family of 5 and got what, 3 years or so?

No, it's not the same logic at all. People in prison are convicted criminals. Vince Li isn't one. It's fundamentally not the same thing at all.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by Majestic12


He's been going through stages where he's given more and more freedom. Haven't heard anything yet about him killing anybody else. Have you? How is it more likely, and why do his doctors disagree with you?

In the past, he wasn't diagnosed and he wasn't medicated. Now he is. Yet now it's more likely that he'll do it again than not? How does that work?

When he's unsupervised and forgets to take a pill or refill his prescription, starts thinking about aliens again and "saves" someone else - that is a very real possibility. I certainly wouldn't want to be anywhere near him. I think anyone would agree that his chances of re-offending are higher than a random person with no history of mental illness all of a sudden going crazy, even though both are possible.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by Majestic12


There's no guarantee about anybody. There's no guarantee you won't go off and kill someone. There's no guarantee that a convict that served his sentence won't go off and do it again after getting out. There's no guarantee Vince Li won't do it again, but his physicians all say he's gone through a fantastic recovery process.

Should we just imprison everyone indefinitely because there's no guarantees ever?

False equivalency, want to try another logical fallacy? I haven't killed anyone so until I do so your argument is moot.

You cut off someones head and eat them? Yeah you should get locked up indefinitely. We aren't talking about some random guy who robbed a bank or dealt drugs. Those guys we can take a risk on because frankly the harm is far lesser. However he killed a human being and ate the guy. He should be locked up forever as a danger to society.

How do you think the family of the victim feels about this crazy cannibal running around in the streets while their son is buried?