Alberta Separatists - What's your view?

[atgilchrist]

While I think seperatism is stupid, any province is worth nothing without their primary industry *cough* manufacturing *cough*.

[Toma]

Originally posted by 911fever
I think you're all forgetting, Alberta is a have-not province without oil. You're worth nothing really when oil is as cheap as it is.

What you are forgetting is that a "have not" province is one that needs and receives transfer payments from the federal government.

If we were 'worth nothing', then we would be getting some.

Even when oil was $12 a barrel, we didn't need any... We haven't received "equalization" payments since what... 1965?

Oil can fall to $25 a barrel, and we would still be a 'have province'.

[Toma]

According to freealberta.com....

We would only 'save' $1500 per person/per year if Alberta separated.

Right.... but will that be enough to cover the portion the government pays for roads, hospitals, schools....

Will it be enough to cover the cost of setting up our own "central bank"? Our own "Revenue Agency", new border crossings and customs points and agency?

Guaranteed, 5 years after separation, we would be paying more, getting less.

[semograd]

Originally posted by 911fever
I think you're all forgetting, Alberta is a have-not province without oil. You're worth nothing really when oil is as cheap as it is.

I think this is a stupid argument. Okay hypothetically speaking we would be worth nothing if we had no oil, but in reality we do have oil (/gas) and the world is still heavily dependent on oil. Thats like saying Saudi would be worthless if they had no oil, but they do so why bother making that point.

[Zhariak]

Originally posted by Toma
According to freealberta.com....

We would only 'save' $1500 per person/per year if Alberta separated.

Right.... but will that be enough to cover the portion the government pays for roads, hospitals, schools....

Will it be enough to cover the cost of setting up our own "central bank"? Our own "Revenue Agency", new border crossings and customs points and agency?

Guaranteed, 5 years after separation, we would be paying more, getting less.

Uhh, I think that number might be wrong. We have already sent $2.35 Billion dollars to the Federal government since January 1st, 2009.

Any I'm not sure what you mean by person saving? I don't care if I "save" any money with the goverment. I don't care if I pay more taxes...

All I know is that by the end of 2009 we would have sent around 12-15 Billion dollars. And the various things it could go towards are:

-Health Programs
-Business Programs
-City Beautification
-Infrastructure Improvements
-Social Programs (Homeless Programs, Mental Disability Programs)
-And I know this falls under, but SCHOOLING! Imagine what type of environment we could provide our children with.

These are just a few of many things that could be enhanced with 12-15Billion dollars.

[Zhariak]

And with everything I'm typing above. I'm not trying to sound like a socialist commie Bastard, I'm the furthest thing from it and on the opposite side of the spectrum.

But what else would you do with this money!

[atgilchrist]

But we'd have to pay for:

-Provincial (sorry..new federal...) police
-National Defence
-"Federal" Prisons
-"Federal" courts
-Most likely a new legislative body
-Foreign Ambassadors
-All highways
-etc

-Not saying that it would take up the whole of the amount "sent" to Ottawa, but it's not like we don't get anything for our money.

[semograd]

who do you think provides the majority of the physical manpower in our oil industry? Albertans???

[Zhariak]

Originally posted by atgilchrist
But we'd have to pay for:

-Provincial (sorry..new federal...) police
-National Defence
-"Federal" Prisons
-"Federal" courts
-Most likely a new legislative body
-Foreign Ambassadors
-All highways
-etc

-Not saying that it would take up the whole of the amount "sent" to Ottawa, but it's not like we don't get anything for our money.

BUT OMG, Just imagine how better all of the above would be if we were paying for it... No doubt we wouldn't cheap out

[sputnik]

Originally posted by atgilchrist
But we'd have to pay for:

-Provincial (sorry..new federal...) police
-National Defence
-"Federal" Prisons
-"Federal" courts
-Most likely a new legislative body
-Foreign Ambassadors
-All highways
-etc

-Not saying that it would take up the whole of the amount "sent" to Ottawa, but it's not like we don't get anything for our money.

You do realize that we would also collect income tax, business tax, GST and other taxes normally collected by the federal government to pay for those exact same things?

[Zhariak]

Originally posted by semograd
who do you think provides the majority of the physical manpower in our oil industry? Albertans???

Ya i know, people from all over Canada, all over the US... I even know some people from India and stuff that work here.

What's your point? They work hard, they pay their taxes. I'd love to have them stay.

[atgilchrist]

Originally posted by sputnik


You do realize that we would also collect income tax, business tax, GST and other taxes normally collected by the federal government to pay for those exact same things?

Sorry, I should have made it clearer. We would indeed collect the taxes you listed above, but some people on here seem to think that we would immediately save anything that currently goes to the Federal gov't.

[ZenOps]

Personally I think Canada would probably benefit from independance more than seperation.

Quebec would probably fall in line if the last ties to the Queen were severed. The US did it by military force, here in Canada - we asked and got "most" of the way. The Bloc is probably just getting plain tired of waiting for the rest of Canada to "grow up" and finally take control of our own destiny. As I too personally am getting a little bit tired of "Running to the Queen every time I get a finger boo-boo."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:No...nce_map-en.svg

Thing is - nobody wants a bloody US type revolution in Canada. And that said - Canada does not have the military might to do without a protector, and trust me when I say Rob Anders our minister of war ain't going to be happy relying on Obama to bail us out if things start to get ugly. Which ultimately means - The Queen is here to stay, and seperation is just not happening - at least for any forseeable future.

[atgilchrist]

...it was only a matter of time. Anybody pointed out that Rob Anders is a backbencher?

[semograd]

Originally posted by Zhariak


Ya i know, people from all over Canada, all over the US... I even know some people from India and stuff that work here.

What's your point? They work hard, they pay their taxes. I'd love to have them stay.

Im not saying that they should leave, I dont know how you jumped to that conclusion. My point is that it pretty much takes this whole country to make alberta rich. We could not do it on our own, we dont have enough people.

Originally posted by ZenOps
Personally I think Canada would probably benefit from independance more than seperation.

Quebec would probably fall in line if the last ties to the Queen were severed. The US did it by military force, here in Canada - we asked and got "most" of the way. The Bloc is probably just getting plain tired of waiting for the rest of Canada to "grow up" and finally take control of our own destiny. As I too personally am getting a little bit tired of "Running to the Queen every time I get a finger boo-boo."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:No...nce_map-en.svg

Thing is - nobody wants a bloody US type revolution in Canada. And that said - Canada does not have the military might to do without a protector, and trust me when I say Rob Anders our minister of war ain't going to be happy relying on Obama to bail us out if things start to get ugly. Which ultimately means - The Queen is here to stay, and seperation is just not happening - at least for any forseeable future.

You know what I think??? I think you are Rob Anders. Honestly... Its the only explanation

[atgilchrist]

^Exactly!

[canuckcarguy]

It's funny how as soon as you say that you support separation, people make the following generalizations about you:
1. You must be a rich oil executive who likes to rape the poor and has no social conscience.
2. You supported Ralph Klein unequivocally, to the point that you have an autographed Ralph Klein bobble-head on your dash
3. You hate immigrants, the french, natives, and maritimers, drive the biggest pickup truck that will fit in the neighborhood, and have a third grade education.

The reality is that supporting separation is a rejection of the system that runs the country, and a submission that provinces or regions would be better off ruling themselves. Canadians, whether you're talking about Quebecers, or Albertans, or Newfoundlanders, or whomever, tend to vote federally for the party they think best represents their region's interests. And that's okay. If I lived in Ontario right now, or Quebec at any time, or PEI at any time, I would want an increase in payments from Alberta. Why not? Who doesn't want an increase in their standard of living without increasing production? But the federal government has made a mess of many regions in this country. One only has to look at the collossal mismanagement of the Atlantic cod fishery to realize that if Ottawa gets to make the call, some regions suffer. Ottawa traded away NFLD's fishing rights to benefit central Canada, in the same way that they imposed the NEP on Alberta, or rewarded Quebec with Churchill Falls, etc - the regions with the strongest voting bloc, Ontario and Quebec, will always receive proportionally higher benefits from staying in confederation. This is a proven reality, and choosing to re-examine that reality just seems prudent.

[Zhariak]

Originally posted by semograd


Im not saying that they should leave, I dont know how you jumped to that conclusion. My point is that it pretty much takes this whole country to make alberta rich. We could not do it on our own, we dont have enough people.

What does this have to do with our whole country? The Germans, Indians (From India), and all the international people I know working in the Oil patch aren't from Canada?

Anyone can work in the oil patches. It's an opportunity that is taken advantage of people who want to make some money. You don't need to be Canadian to work there.

I'm not trying to be arrogant, but I still can't link what you said about people from the Oil Patch not being Albertan, and how it's only successful because of all of Canada?

[atgilchrist]

The vast majority of people working in the oilpatch (who are not Albertans originally) are from elsewhere in Canada.

[Toma]

Originally posted by Zhariak


Uhh, I think that number might be wrong. We have already sent $2.35 Billion dollars to the Federal government since January 1st, 2009.

Any I'm not sure what you mean by person saving? I don't care if I "save" any money with the goverment. I don't care if I pay more taxes...

All I know is that by the end of 2009 we would have sent around 12-15 Billion dollars. And the various things it could go towards are:

-Health Programs
-Business Programs
-City Beautification
-Infrastructure Improvements
-Social Programs (Homeless Programs, Mental Disability Programs)
-And I know this falls under, but SCHOOLING! Imagine what type of environment we could provide our children with.

These are just a few of many things that could be enhanced with 12-15Billion dollars.

My numbers are accurate. Try using the calculator.

Our government cannot do shit with the richest province in north America.

It's easy to "blame the feds" to shift the blame of provincial incompetence.