Way Overfilled my tank, do these symptoms = charcoal canister damage?

[hickwithbuick]

Vehicle: 2002 Toyota corolla 1.8L automatic 4 speed, 58000 miles

Story Part 1
On the night of march 12, Thursday, I overfilled my gas tank as I had been doing for the whole past winter which had been extraordinarily cold.

I am not talking 2-3 liters. I am talking about 15 liters every time. I would meticulously pull the gas hose and wait for the frothy bubbles to back down into the tank, pump more, repeat.

On Friday, in the morning it was -10C so i had no trouble driving to my carpool lot. On my way back home, the car started to stall when hot.
Driving cold = OK.

-Give gas, let it coast, stall.
-Come to a stop light, rough idling, stall

Story Part 2
Got the car towed to my mechanic on friday night. Saturday morning he said that no error code was present. But running with MAF disconnected causes no issues and it runs as normal as it always does. So I replaced the MAF sensor ($275) from the dealer. No difference - stalls. Disconnect the MAF, everything's good.

http://www.fixya.com/cars/t1079219-t...rfill_gas_tank

Story Part 3
Drove MAF-less to the dealer for help. Paid $116 for diagnostics. No error code. Dealer mechanic cleaned throttle body, checked every sensor. No issue could be found with any of the systems. But you connect MAF and the engine stalls.

Dealer Mechanic drove me home. We discussed my overfill and he said BINGO!! Your charcoal canister is designed to screw up with an overfilled tank. The only weird thing is, you have no error code like P0441 or P0446 etc.

Story Part 4
Monday, Tuesday (Today), drove to work MAF-less. No problems otherwise with the car.
A mechanic friend says "You could try for a dry off but good luck with that". After throwing $400 at it, I have no idea about what may be wrong. Where should I go next? what should i check for? which parts/systems should I try to disconnect etc? Would you advise against buying a used charcoal canister? Am I bound to fail the e-test next time? Am I harming my engine running MAF-less? Fuel economy is exactly the same still.
Edit/Delete Message

[R154]

I am surprised your car runs at all without your maf pluged in.

Not to insult your intelligence, but the maf is the sensor nearest to your airboz. Are you sure you are unplugging your maf?

[gasgas]

is it possible to over fill your tank that much? you sure theres not another problem with fuel flow into your vehicle?

if it is, why are you doing it?

Originally posted by hickwithbuick
Vehicle: 2002 Toyota corolla 1.8L automatic 4 speed, 58000 miles

Story Part 1
On the night of march 12, Thursday, I overfilled my gas tank as I had been doing for the whole past winter which had been extraordinarily cold.

I am not talking 2-3 liters. I am talking about 15 liters every time. I would meticulously pull the gas hose and wait for the frothy bubbles to back down into the tank, pump more, repeat.

[R154]

This makes little sense, as when a car is running an unpluged or misfunctioning MAF it uses the tables set on the ecu, and usually results in poor gas milage, and dodgy performance at best. But it would throw a code as well.

So running it unpluged woul essentially do the same thing, and SHOULD throw it into limp.

There must be another symptom causing failure. My money would be on a fuel filter. I dont even know what a carbon canister is. And I suppose it is for emissons. No emissions system minus the o2 sensor will make your car run adversely.

[benyl]

Why would you fill it past the click of the pump? That is what the click is for. To tell you that it is full!

[hickwithbuick]

Originally posted by gasgas
is it possible to over fill your tank that much? you sure theres not another problem with fuel flow into your vehicle?

if it is, why are you doing it?

Yes it is possible to bring the level of gas in a low temperature (no chance for vaporizing) upto the ring of the opening of your gas tank.

I was only doing it thinking it was a benign move which would give me a lot of mileage per tank.

I drive 55 miles to work and back everyday. I was trying to avoid frequent trips.

[Supa Dexta]

Did you try restarting much after it stalled? I had a sentra and it HATED anything after the click.. It would buck and bog and stall.. I'd just have to go easy on it for a few minutes and it would settle down.

[hickwithbuick]

Originally posted by R154
I am surprised your car runs at all without your maf pluged in.

Not to insult your intelligence, but the maf is the sensor nearest to your airboz. Are you sure you are unplugging your maf?

No offense taken. I am actually a bit car savvy; not however nearly an expert on these pointless emissions systems designed to fail and cause you huge headaches.

Nonetheless, you make a good point. The toyota mechanic said, theoretically your car shouldn't even run without a maf but it does going by the values programmed into the ECM. It does take into account readings from the O2, Throttle and other pressure sensors to regulate the gas.

I know i am running a bit rich but my engine isn't overheating and for heaven's sakes, it's not stalling. I am 100% sure it's the MAF sensor, it's got 5 pins and it fits into the airbox and reads the air and barometric pressure after the air filter.

[hickwithbuick]

Originally posted by Supa Dexta
Did you try restarting much after it stalled? I had a sentra and it HATED anything after the click.. It would buck and bog and stall.. I'd just have to go easy on it for a few minutes and it would settle down.

With the MAF plugged in, it cranks more than i like but it starts. But don't forget as soon as i drive off when the engine is warm, give gas, and when i let off the gas pedal to coast... stall. The engine just shuts off and slowly the steering and brakes firm up.

Come to a red light, full stop then i notice hesitation and the tendency to stall... sometimes it does stall. Coasting with momentum causes the stall most often.

Without MAF plugged in... runs fine.

[R154]

Yeah, I forgot to post note my original post with that bit of info. I did in my second post.

running lean would cause it to have extra heat, running rich WOULD cause it to run really poorly.

Have you ruled out dirty injectors? How about a clogged fuel filter?

Fouled plugs would be my absolute best guess. It would describe you symptoms. Pull a plug and check and see if becuase of running rich it hasnt carboned your injectors.

Running without a maf also would kill your o2 sensor, so be aware of that too man.

[hickwithbuick]

Originally posted by R154
Yeah, I forgot to post note my original post with that bit of info. I did in my second post.

running lean would cause it to have extra heat, running rich WOULD cause it to run really poorly.

Have you ruled out dirty injectors? How about a clogged fuel filter?

Fouled plugs would be my absolute best guess. It would describe you symptoms. Pull a plug and check and see if becuase of running rich it hasnt carboned your injectors.

Running without a maf also would kill your o2 sensor, so be aware of that too man.

Yeah i am weary of doing strange things with strange consequences don't get me wrong. I've never heard that o2 sensor could be shot. But aftermarket part is around 50-60 bucks. The biggest problem on my hands is the lack of a means to determine what to do next since there is no check engine light error code being sent to me.

Rich means more gas. More gas burning means more heat in the engine = lower likelihood of building gunk or carbon.

Did you read the link I posted originally?

[R154]

Yes running rich means more more unburnt fuel. Running lean means the ratio of burnt fuel to air consumed. Running lean causes excess heat as fuel itself burns at a much higher temperature with excess air. Rich means an excess of burning more fuel with less air consumed with respect to perfect combustion being achieved at 14.7:1 air to fuel. a rich environment is 12:1 and less up to 8, at which point a car will not run at all. Lean being 16.5 up to about 25 at which point the heat is so great that things start melting and exploding.

What I am telling you is that running rich (IE smelling gas) produces a lower rate of combustion which makes the formula of combustion; Hydrocarbon + air = co2 + water produce irregular results, such as carbon, (soot) which builds up on both your plugs and O2 sensor, and are both responsible for premature failure or your motor running poorly, primarily your sparkplugs.

You are slightly confused, I appreciate your inutive thinking, but it is fairly incorrect. I would appreciate it if you answered my questions instead of trying to convince me of my lack of knowledge.

I am not trying to be hostile, but I can help you very little if the questions I am asking are going unanswered. If you feel they are not pertinent or I am unable to help then tell me that.

A lot of more knowledgable car guys have yet to answer you because so little is known.

[hickwithbuick]

Originally posted by R154
Yes running rich means more more unburnt fuel. Running lean means the ratio of burnt fuel to air consumed. Running lean causes excess heat as fuel itself burns at a much higher temperature with excess air. Rich means an excess of burning more fuel with less air consumed with respect to perfect combustion being achieved at 14.7:1 air to fuel. a rich environment is 12:1 and less up to 8, at which point a car will not run at all. Lean being 16.5 up to about 25 at which point the heat is so great that things start melting and exploding.

What I am telling you is that running rich (IE smelling gas) produces a lower rate of combustion which makes the formula of combustion; Hydrocarbon + air = co2 + water produce irregular results, such as carbon, (soot) which builds up on both your plugs and O2 sensor, and are both responsible for premature failure or your motor running poorly, primarily your sparkplugs.

You are slightly confused, I appreciate your inutive thinking, but it is fairly incorrect. I would appreciate it if you answered my questions instead of trying to convince me of my lack of knowledge.

I am not trying to be hostile, but I can help you very little if the questions I am asking are going unanswered. If you feel they are not pertinent or I am unable to help then tell me that.

A lot of more knowledgable car guys have yet to answer you because so little is known.

Your Original question was

Have you ruled out dirty injectors? How about a clogged fuel filter?

Of course I have not ruled that out. I could try to open up a plug, and see its condition. However this happened overnight, by which, I mean a span of 10 hours. I (over)filled my tank, drove home in the cold. Then in the cold morning I drove 5 miles, no issues. It warms up that day in the afternoon, the gas expanded and went who knows where. Remember gas contracts in the cold because under ground, it's at a constant 15C volume.

Is there any way to isolate injectors or fuel filter by doing some kind of a test? The biggest problem is that no error codes are set rendering the ECM troubleshooting worthless. I only have 58000 miles on the car. If i could rule those out, i might go and buy the charcoal canister.

By the way, your explanation makes sense to me now. The intuitive mind would say, lean = less fuel = more requirement to rev (higher throttle position required) so more heat. But I would think that at high temps any and all fuel would burn if it's running rich. My mileage is unaffected.

http://www.justanswer.com/questions/...r-town-country

http://action.publicbroadcasting.net...t/1105010.page

[R154]

Running rich always milage and fuel consumption if it is a fueling problem. Such that I thought that your maf was suspect, as those table values are typically made to be rich as it is far safer to run rich then to run lean.

The fact that you arent throwing codes is worrying because electrical component failure is either full out or not. it isnt intermitent. Typically if trouble is intermitent then the ecu will not throw a code.

The reason why I think it is plugs, is because the car is running rich (as how I understand) and yet milage is unaffected. The computer isnt dumping fuel or pulling timing. This could mean that spark is cold or weak. It could also be a completely unrelated issue to the fuel. However if it was ruled out that the distributor and coil is infact functioning properly then that almost conclusively rules out ignition and spark.

Running without a maf throws the car into LIMP which has to throw a cel.
Typically if you car is running in LIMP there is a rev limiter placed early like 3-4K and the car idles rough. Cold start and idle is controlled independantly of the maf in all cars.

Though the canister appears to be a major issue with your gen car, since it is emissions it should be throwing a CEL. However since it is emissions, it should not affect performance, specifically your idle.

[inline6turbo]

It's most likely a problem with your EVAP system. Could very well be due to your overfilling. The purge valve could be stuck open and dumping exhaust gases into the cylinder when you're idling, causing a stall condition. If you had a misfiring cylinder or clogged fuel filter you would still drive, just extremely rough all the time. And the engine will sense a misfire, and trip a code. With the MAF disconnected the EVAP system won't function, thus you being able to drive it.

And yes there are tests to check for leaks etc.

my $0.02

*edit*
And cars will run with the MAF disconnected, I think I read somewhere in this thread of unrelated rambles that it wouldn't.
Some cars have a limp mode where it won't let you rev past a certain RMP with it disconnected but otherwise drive normally.
I doubt you're trying to redline your car so you might not even notice the revlimiter.

[R154]

Good thinking. I forgot about that.

Thanks Renee

[crapstixs]

all that your charcole cannister dose is hold fuel vapors untill you are mid throttle when the evap perge solenoid opens and allows fuel vapors in to the intake to be burned. you will never know if you are rich or lean with out a scanner (unless you are pig rich and can smell it). fuel trims will tell you this. seeing that you are not throwing codes it could be a pcm, evap perge solenoid stuck open, egr valve stuck open. all of those will throw codes. or somthing as small as a fuel filter as said befor. i cant say for sure unless i see the car but seeing that the engine is not going into limp mode with the maf unpluged i would be leaning towards a pcm problem. but i could be totaly wrong, you cand diagnose a car on the computer.

[inline6turbo]

So I'd recommend replacing your canister, the filter in it is probably screwed. Then stop overfilling your tank, it does more harm then good.... actually no good at all, you'll get worse gas mileage by doing that.

[inline6turbo]

Originally posted by crapstixs
all that your charcole cannister dose is hold fuel vapors untill you are mid throttle when the evap perge solenoid opens and allows fuel vapors in to the intake to be burned. you will never know if you are rich or lean with out a scanner (unless you are pig rich and can smell it). fuel trims will tell you this. seeing that you are not throwing codes it could be a pcm, evap perge solenoid stuck open, egr valve stuck open. all of those will throw codes. or somthing as small as a fuel filter as said befor. i cant say for sure unless i see the car but seeing that the engine is not going into limp mode with the maf unpluged i would be leaning towards a pcm problem. but i could be totaly wrong, you cand diagnose a car on the computer.

Youre very right, the PCM does check for purge flow during non commanded times, so theres probably another problem associated with this. MIL light could be burned out :p Have you checked for it when you're starting your car?

[crapstixs]

limp mode restricts engine power and rpm on newer cars. when in limp mode the pcm shuts alot of stuff down. theres now mistaking if your in limp or not.