Winter Tire Reviews

[googe]

What about halfway through their life? That was one of the Xi3 selling points. Don't want a tire that becomes "all season" the next year after it's worn.

[Mikko]

Winter tires, assuming they are driven during the winter season (and this assumes that nearly all of the driving will be on bare pavement, as that's how winter roads usually are like most of the time - but cold pavement), and that they are not left on during summer, nor that they are abused/driven hard, are designed to last five seasons (years). After that the tire wear may or may not have degraded enough, but the rubber definitely will have. It says never to buy non-fresh winter tires, but if one must, insist on a major price cut.

I know I saw something about tread depth somewhere, but it might have been some ancient article, I forget. Will have to search. I do know that winter tires in general are touchy about tread depth whenever straying from bare pavement. Their whole design is centered around the ability to dig into water in its various states (using the gaps in the treads), clearing it to make room for more slush or whatever so there'll be grip on the next rotation too. As tread depth goes down, this ability rapidly dissipates. The slipes (super fine tread cuts at the edge of the contacting part of the rubber) are there to make the edges deform more (softer).

I am pissed that there are no good options for winter tires now. The studded-designed winter tire market is a mess due to manufacturer incompetency and the new regulations, leaving only the Hakka 8 as quality option, whereas non-studded has major failings in performance in our conditions.

Other points of interest is that the operating range for winter tire rubber is from +7C to -10C. They don't even bother testing performance when it gets colder than that, because all rubber turns so rigid as to perform the same. It said that testing on ice in colder conditions becomes only a test of the studs, which are unaffected by the cold, assuming the tire even has them.

Technology wise, I learned some interesting things that may be seen as interesting:

1. Studded winter-tires should be studded by design. The attachment point of each stud has several types of rubber of different hardness, which yields if enough pressure is applied. Literally, the studs withdraw a bit into the tire if pushed against dry pavement. Interesting. Won't see this proper behavior from tires with them clamped on in a shop as a modification.

2. Non-studded winter tires sometimes have various other materials mixed into the edge of the tread, like metal fragments - everything to make them more directionally stable and predictable on ice. Even the best non-studded tire has nothing on the good studded winter tires though. I guess it helps to think of one's experiences of walking on ice with various types of rubber soled shoes/boots - when the ice is blank, like a frozen puddle, I have never had a shoe that performed close to acceptable on it. The grip level is just so low. There is only so much one can do with rubber and ice will not deform into its treads to give it traction. 200 metal spikes made out of tungsten carbide does have properties suited for clawing ones way forcefully into getting some traction.

[Murray Peterson]

Originally posted by Mikko
Not to spoil the fun too much, but it is very clear from the test that the Hakkapeelitta 8 is hugely superior to everything else in the kind of climate conditions we find ourselves in (Calgary, Stockholm).

Sadly, the Hakka 8 is illegal in B.C. (limit of 130 studs for vehicles under 4600 kg).

http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/...atreg/26_58_06

[cloud7]

Originally posted by Murray Peterson


Sadly, the Hakka 8 is illegal in B.C. (limit of 130 studs for vehicles under 4600 kg).

http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/...atreg/26_58_06

You can still run the tires illegally, but just don't put more than 130 studs per tire.

[Axe]

Interested as well.

You can get Gislaved Nord Frost tires through Urban X - I have ordered a pair (studded).

[jsn]

I would definitely be interested to see a comparison. I did some googling earlier this year but alot of the information is older model tires or just random posts on car forums which don't always help.

I was originally going to get hakkapellita 8s but I got a killer deal on a set of Hakka R2s so I went that route instead. It's not really a fair comparison to compare studded 8s to non-studded R2s but it would be nice to how they stack up to other tires in the same category

[The_Rural_Juror]

Originally posted by cloud7


You can still run the tires illegally, but just don't put more than 130 studs per tire.

Are you going to have to pull out 60 studs a tire manually?

[zipdoa]

I just put 225/55/17 Hakkapeliitta 8's on my Allroad. This is definitely the benchmark of winter driving performance. I also have a set of Michelin Xice Xi3 (brand new this year) and the difference in traction isn't even comparable. Studded winters make non-studded winters feel like all-season tires.

My only complaint is that drifting in packed snow is pretty pathetic. They bite and grip so much that you really have to be overly aggressive to make the car break loose, and even then, it hooks up again immediately.

I'll be using the Allroad w/Hakk 8's exclusively for trips out to Revelstoke and the odd day in town where the roads are terrible. Otherwise, I'll be running around in my Jetta TDI on the Xi3's.

I would definitely not recommend the Hakk 8's if you're daily driving in the city, they just feel like overkill. Xi3's, R2's or Blizzaks are adequate for the majority of the conditions in town, IMO.

Also, somewhat relevant - KalTire in Victoria, BC mounted the Hakk 8's for me. They said it wasn't an issue because I was running an AB plate.

[killramos]

Originally posted by The_Rural_Juror


Are you going to have to pull out 60 studs a tire manually?

You think the average RCMP officer is going to check after you say "no officer it has less then X studs per tire and is legal"

I would pay to watch that.

[freshprince1]

Just put some Blizzak WS80's on the Subaru. They work so well I can't even pull decent rally turns or donuts in parking lots anymore. First world problems, I guess. They're not the highest end winter tire, but I am thoroughly impressed. I've owned X-Ice and Hakkapelita's in the past and these are doing just as good as far as I can tell.

I also put a set of Blizzak DM-V1's on my F-150 and am equally happy. I drove through Crowsnest Pass twice the other week, as well as Highway 22, during the huge snowfall and they did awesome. I did't even put it into 4x4.

Big thanks to Gary at UrbanX for helping getting these on with only one day lead time.

[HiSpec]

Originally posted by Axe
Interested as well.

You can get Gislaved Nord Frost tires through Urban X - I have ordered a pair (studded).

I bought a set from Kyle at Spec-R Tire Service. He highly recommended those tires, based on the feedback from a few Subaru participates for rally cross used them.

[googe]

What's the best all season tire for winter? Or best "winter" tire for year round?

I live in Seattle where it rains all winter, but I hit snow storms in the passes like 2-3 times a year. So it makes no sense for me to get real winter tires that will suck 90% of the time. But I don't want the worst possible tire for those few times I do go through the passes.

Nokian WR? Anything similar?

Since they'll be on year round, and they'll be on above zero temp bare or wet roads during most of the winter, longevity is important.

[killramos]

Originally posted by googe
What's the best all season tire for winter? Or best "winter" tire for year round?

I live in Seattle where it rains all winter, but I hit snow storms in the passes like 2-3 times a year. So it makes no sense for me to get real winter tires that will suck 90% of the time. But I don't want the worst possible tire for those few times I do go through the passes.

Nokian WR? Anything similar?

Since they'll be on year round, and they'll be on above zero temp bare or wet roads during most of the winter, longevity is important.

Basically the Nokian all weathers are the only option. But they are basically just a winter tire. Maybe look into a winter tire with good wet, dry handling and decent wear life? With less emphasis on snow and ice.

But two sets of tires is a pretty minimal expense of car ownership and not that inconvenient. Especially if you can turn a wrench.

[rage2]

Originally posted by googe
What's the best all season tire for winter? Or best "winter" tire for year round?

I live in Seattle where it rains all winter, but I hit snow storms in the passes like 2-3 times a year. So it makes no sense for me to get real winter tires that will suck 90% of the time. But I don't want the worst possible tire for those few times I do go through the passes.

Nokian WR? Anything similar?

Since they'll be on year round, and they'll be on above zero temp bare or wet roads during most of the winter, longevity is important.

All seasons, bring chains for the passes.

[schocker]

Originally posted by rage2

All seasons, bring chains for the passes.

The WR's wear so fast, faster than my actual winter tires though I drove them pretty hard.

[Mikko]

Currently, I transferred all the chart data and all the subjective tester ratings to a spreadsheet on Google Docs. It has various descriptions and translations, which I translated or wrote myself all in english. I have tried very hard not to taint the contents of the original article with own biases or interpretations, but have added some explanations to some of the stuff which were not in the original. There may be errors (probably minor, I did double check everything at least once). Hope I did not screw anything up. Some fields are still missing (article writer's comments on a few of the tires). I do not intend to translate and add every single thing listed in there, such as very subjective arbitrary 'interpretations' by the author that are not listed as subjective, nor any explanation to how the arbitrary scale was applied. Don't worry, you people know how to read performance charts, and don't need a journalist to transfer it to a 1-10 scale.

I did transfer all the stuff that was listed specifically as subjective/anectodal. I find it interesting that the subjective impressions can be so different from actual performance data. Maybe that is behind lots of the word of mouth misinformation being spread, at least in North America.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...6UQ5WA/pubhtml

Let me know if it is viewable or not.

EDIT: When I click the linked document, I get a full screen version without controls, unable to sort the test results per column and no notes visible. Need to fix that. How do I go about sharing a version that shows all that stuff? Damnit.

[tirebob]

Originally posted by Mikko
I find it interesting that the subjective impressions can be so different from actual performance data. Maybe that is behind lots of the word of mouth misinformation being spread, at least in North America.

Or maybe that is the problem with testing and calling it gold... The problem is you cannot account for every single relevant circumstance and variable when making a test like these. Change the temperatures by 15 degrees and the results will be different. Change the vehicles and results will be different. Change the drivers and the results will be different. The list can go on and on...

Don't get me wrong... Testing is always a good thing and can give you some guidance, but relying strictly on these things means you may not always be satisfied. Everyone has different preferences and enhancing one characteristic will change another, and if you like a specific characteristic then you need to deal with the results of that.

Scientific world testing and real world usability do not always coincide. The bottom line is, winter tires do make a difference in traction, plain and simple. The question then becomes, what characteristics within a winter tire best suit your day to day needs and wants, and then buying the tire that most closely suits those needs and wants while improving your safety and fitting your budget.

As in all things in life there is no one size fits all...

[Mikko]

I think you will be pleased to hear that all the the performance data in the test are composite numbers, not merely one single outcome in a specific setting. Each of those test segments were, for each set of tires, performed up to 40(!) times, on different days, in different temperatures (from +7C to -10C from what I understand. A 17 degree variation) and variations of ice, snow, wet etc.

The type of driver is also excluded from relevance except possibly for the circuit test. Braking and acceleration is done with traction control and ABS enabled and will not differ based on type of driver and their skills.

EDIT: It is true that there is no tire that is perfect at everything. But performance and safety-wise, the best studded winter tires, when operating within their designed envelope (from 7C and down) are equal or (far) superior to the best non-studded tires. The trade-off comes down to a mushier feel (subjective) when on bare roads and increased noise levels. And not suitable for driving at very illegal speeds, of course, though I don't see how that is relevant.

EDIT 2: You are absolutely correct about the vehicle. Different vehicles with different weight distribution, tire dimensions etc all can make a significant difference. Even just having three adult passengers definitely affects things. However, physics wise, the tires tested would probably perform equally good or bad when compared to each other regardless of the different situations.

What you say about satisfaction is so true that no one could possibly deny it. I.e. what people believe or feel their fitted tires to be. Consumers acting rationally would try to ignore that though and go for what actually performs the way they want it to. A representative quote could be "Feeling safe versus being safe".

Originally posted by tirebob


Or maybe that is the problem with testing and calling it gold... The problem is you cannot account for every single relevant circumstance and variable when making a test like these. Change the temperatures by 15 degrees and the results will be different. Change the vehicles and results will be different. Change the drivers and the results will be different. The list can go on and on...

Don't get me wrong... Testing is always a good thing and can give you some guidance, but relying strictly on these things means you may not always be satisfied. Everyone has different preferences and enhancing one characteristic will change another, and if you like a specific characteristic then you need to deal with the results of that.

Scientific world testing and real world usability do not always coincide. The bottom line is, winter tires do make a difference in traction, plain and simple. The question then becomes, what characteristics within a winter tire best suit your day to day needs and wants, and then buying the tire that most closely suits those needs and wants while improving your safety and fitting your budget.

As in all things in life there is no one size fits all...

[tirebob]

Again, that is still not covering even remotely enough to make statements about what is best and worst. Temperature for example, in Calgary temperature swings can be from -40 to +15 which is a 55 degree swing. While places such as Vancouver doesn't often get low and they are often higher than 7 degrees.

I can go on and on about this but in the end, I am not saying testing is not worth doing, but there is absolutely zero way to cover the needs of the majority of users. I have done enough tire tire testing over the last 27 years of working to see that it cannot be considered completely reliable for everyone in all circumstances. Use it for research sure, but once that data is formed THEN use it to best select a tire around your specific customers needs. You get a lot of info from testing, but that info does not tell you what is best. It tells you what was best in the exact specifics of that test and not what happens in real life everywhere in the world on every car in every circumstance.

Use that info and ask the right questions after absorbing it. Don't take it for gold...

[Mikko]

For sure. This test result database says nothing about how they perform when it is colder than -10c (except studs are the one thing that doesn't change even when all the winter tire rubber turns hard at around -10C) or warmer than 7C. But it is solid scientific evidence for the tires performance within that envelope. From -10C to +7C, this is what you can expect to get. The large sample base and the large amount of variation gives a large amount of statistical data, that can be reproduced by anyone.

"there is absolutely zero way to cover the needs of the majority of users."

Different people have different priorities, so absolutely yes. However, they can probably arrive at a pretty good answer based on this large amount of test data.

"I have done enough tire tire testing over the last 27 years of working to see that it cannot be considered completely reliable for everyone in all circumstances."

How could it be absolute? It cannot. But surely you agree that this is an exceptional source of actual real world tire performance, due to the wealth of samples used to arrive at the numbers and the testing methodology. Hard scientific evidence. Anectdotal evidence is something to rely on when there is nothing better, but anectdotal evidence is weighted very weakly compared to scientific evidence. Most people in North America know little about tires and tire physics. There are so many misconceptions thrown around; I swear sometimes it sounds like they are talking about snow chains when they spread their wisdom on studded winter tires (like that they are worse, even safety hazard on pavement because they believe the studs lift the tire so the rubber doesn't grip the road).

I think the rational thing to do would be to study the results carefully. Decide what is a priority. Then say, ask you about the specifics of some of the tires. I'd listen to your advice any day on those things. Especially in terms of things that there is not much data on, such as noise levels, subjective stability, performance when outside the performance envelope in the test, how to take care of studded tires vs non studded and so on.