140 dead in China during Uighur protest

[Subwoofah]

Ok there buddy...
"Right on pro Uighur hackers!" != "Go Chinese Go... kill them all!!"

How is my opinion related to killing anyone? Read the news article. It talks about Patriotic Chinese hackers defacing government websites and film festivals. It then goes on to say Uighur hackers defaced Chinese websites. It explained both sides.

"I personally support watchdog groups and human rights activists when they present information as it happens."

So this means you support these:
http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/...vists-20090504
http://crd-net.org/Article/Class9/Cl...514_15259.html
http://www.theartnewspaper.com/artic...i-Weiwei/18609

Just asking because I never got an answer.

And this line... oh boy.
"Anyway, after I figured out Subwoofah was part of the Falun Gong network it pretty much makes anything he posts up very questionable, even a lot of sources that initially seem legit can have Falun Gong influence. The group has a lot of members and power, it is a bit scary to me actually considering the types of deep rooted beliefs it is built on."

OK... I'm a bit shocked because I myself didn't know I was part of the Falun Gong network. Anything I post is questionable because of the powerful Falun Gong network influencing news media/human rights/government watchdogs all over the world?

And to you...
I figured out Sugarphreak is part of the CCP censorship network and it pretty much makes anything he posts up very questionable, even a lot of sources that initially seem legit can have CCP influence. The CCP has a lot of members and power, it is a bit scary to me actually considering the types of deep rooted beliefs it is built on.

"Clearly you support one side instead of objectivly condemning both"

You may have missed it but I'm a Tibetan on the Uighur side. You're welcome to join.

[Sugarphreak]

....

[Subwoofah]

Fixed the links for ya. Please have a read through them.

Why do you hate Falun Gong so much? Have you had real life contact with any of these groups (Uighur, Falun Gong, Tibetan)?

"I called you a sympathizer/follower... which I think you must be in real life with all the puff-peices you keep posting up. Your behavoir is consistant with it anyway."

I have then called you a CCP sympathizer/follower because you try to defend and deflect any bad news I post.

The middle and peaceful approach does not work in China. How are you going to peacefully get your voice heard in China? Think this through... Tibetans have tried to peacefully live through Chinese occupation since 1949. Years of frustration boiled into the more recent violence.
Add in these rules: you are not allowed to gather in groups, you are not allowed to speak out against the government, you are not allowed to have a lawyer in court, and it keeps going. What new peaceful approach idea do you have that is going to change the CCP. The only idea I can think of is sharing my knowledge with other Chinese and agree that the CCP needs to be ousted and a new government formed. Throughout history there has never been a 'peaceful' regime change in China. It's all been very violent.

[remarx-j]

Originally posted by Subwoofah
Fixed the links for ya. Please have a read through them.

Why do you hate Falun Gong so much? Have you had real life contact with any of these groups (Uighur, Falun Gong, Tibetan)?

"I called you a sympathizer/follower... which I think you must be in real life with all the puff-peices you keep posting up. Your behavoir is consistant with it anyway."

I have then called you a CCP sympathizer/follower because you try to defend and deflect any bad news I post.

The middle and peaceful approach does not work in China. How are you going to peacefully get your voice heard in China? Think this through... Tibetans have tried to peacefully live through Chinese occupation since 1949. Years of frustration boiled into the more recent violence.
Add in these rules: you are not allowed to gather in groups, you are not allowed to speak out against the government, you are not allowed to have a lawyer in court, and it keeps going. What new peaceful approach idea do you have that is going to change the CCP. The only idea I can think of is sharing my knowledge with other Chinese and agree that the CCP needs to be ousted and a new government formed. Throughout history there has never been a 'peaceful' regime change in China. It's all been very violent.

isn't tibet apart of china?

[Sugarphreak]

....

[Subwoofah]

"Well I will say that generally as far as our opinions are apart we agree that it solving things there peacefuly is pretty much a pipe dream... not good for anybody. It would be the prefered outcome though."

Its a compassionate, workable idea which might work if everyone was on the same page and I'm pretty sure it'd be good for everybody.

If we keep talking in circles nothing will get done. A Chinese proveb says, "If we keep heading in the same direction, we are likely to get where we are headed." Lets change directions. Why not talk about how to change the Chinese government? Let's open that discussion. How about it?

[Sugarphreak]

...

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
I think the fundamental difference here is that you are saying "Hey the Chinese Government is really bad, look at all the stuff they are doing"

Where as my arguments are typically just focused on saying "Yes, I agree... but the people you are defending/supporting aren't exactly saints by any means either".

Two wrongs do not make a right... What someone else does in no way shape or form excuses human rights abuses.

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
Even in a case of Tibet where most people assume they could do no harm; before the British occupied it there is lots of evidence of torture and slavery was a regular part of life there.... and this is the Dalia Lama regime we are talking about!

So tell me they are better off shackled under a dictatorship instead of having a representative democracy that respects their religion and way of life? I don't quite understand the argument that they are better off because otherwise there would have to be a regime in place. If we can have a semblance of democracy in Iraq we can do the same in Tibet.

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
As a sub point I wanted to bring up that all things considered the Chinese government of today does have a lot of good points going for it as well; you go back to the Chairman Mao days there and you realize just how far they have come when it comes to both civic and humanitarian rights. They still have a ways to go, but at least the steps are in the right direction.

Mao made Stalin look like an amateur. How can you not improve from whole sale slaughter? Now the oppression/butchering is simply veiled in secrecy.

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
Even some things that may seem like oppression can be good IMO. You look at how long it took them to widen 16th ave... the main corridor of the Canadian highway; 40 years! 40 Years of arguing and negotiating with land owners, millions of tax payer dollars spent on this project... some people started and retired on the same
municipal project!

In China.... they just do it. The land owners get a reasonable dollar amount & the boot and 3 weeks later a new highway goes in.

How can you argue for oppression when you are not oppressed. If you believe the system is so great and wonderful then you really should move to a country that will provide the oppression you so admire. Oh and have a look next time at the extent of corruption in any government that lacks transparency and accountability to voters. Let me tell you that I bet a lot of those land owners did not get what they deserved. Sadly who do you voice your opposition too? The ruling cabal that controls the press, the police, the military, and all the bureaucrats?

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
What it really comes down to is also an old saying; "Too much control equals slavery.... too much freedom equals chaos". Even if you had a perfect balance there are still going to be people who want more liberal rules & those who want more conservative ones.

Again if you so admire oppression and a lack of freedom may I suggest moving to a country that will provide you with the qualities you so admire? If the values you hold dear are not to be had for other people then how is that not hypocrisy of the highest order?

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
But even here we basically have two groups to vote for (that will actually have a hop in hell of winning) and they are both crooked as hell.

You have two groups in power at the moment. This has not always been the case nor will it always be the case. That is why democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried. All the political parties have interests in keeping each other honest as they vie for political power. Additionally a free and open press adds greatly to ensuring less corruption and accountability for the voters. As much as anyone may gripe about the current government neither of them are all that bad seeing as if they were the voters would elect someone else.

PS: China is not a communist state they are a mixed market authoritarian regime.

[Sugarphreak]

....

[Subwoofah]

Tibetans live off of religion. Buddhism is our way of life. We believe in our lamas who have graduated through all schools of buddhist teachings. These are lamas that we trust 100%. The Dalai Lama is decided through a set of rituals dating back hundreds of years and is carried out by the highest monks/lamas of Tibet. His rule is elected by those we trust. If you did a poll, you'd see that he has a 99% approval rating before and after Tibet was invaded.

"A lie repeated a hundred times becomes the truth." -Mao

http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/a-...tory-of-tibet/

Please read through this. It is very informative and I agree 100% with it. How can historians tell us what happened and disagree with the people that actually lived through it? It doesn't make sense to me...

Building infrastructure at any cost is a sad way of running a government. You don't hear about any complaints from people because there isn't any room for that. You complain and make a fuss, you go to jail.

"I can only assume in the next 20 years that the government will go through some big reforms."

You seem to agree that the CCP is evil but you also agree that it is doing the right thing. Where is this 20 year crystal ball you have? Why would anyone want to change the government if the government has no flaws? That is the view of most mainland Chinese (and overseas) and they see any other viewpoint as terrorist or seperatist. Instead of denying the evidence of the REAL suffering groups, make a difference, talk and ask questions. Lets make a difference instead of sitting around for someone else to!

[Subwoofah]

Also, take a look at this book if you have the chance.

http://www.amazon.com/Prisoner-State.../dp/1439149380

"
“Zhao may be more dangerous in death than he was in life.” —Time
How often can you peek behind the curtains of one of the most secretive governments in the world? Prisoner of the State is the first book to give readers a front row seat to the secret inner workings of China’s government. It is the story of Premier Zhao Ziyang, the man who brought liberal change to that nation and who, at the height of the Tiananmen Square protests in 1989, tried to stop the massacre and was dethroned for his efforts.

When China’s army moved in, killing hundreds of students and other demonstrators, Zhao was placed under house arrest at his home on a quiet alley in Beijing. China’s most promising change agent had been disgraced, along with the policies he stood for. The premier spent the last sixteen years of his life, up until his death in 2005, in seclusion. An occasional detail about his life would slip out: reports of a golf excursion, a photo of his aging visage, a leaked letter to China’s leaders. But China scholars often lamented that Zhao never had his final say.

As it turns out, Zhao did produce a memoir in complete secrecy. He methodically recorded his thoughts and recollections on what had happened behind the scenes during many of modern China’s most critical moments. The tapes he produced were smuggled out of the country and form the basis for Prisoner of the State. In this audio journal, Zhao provides intimate details about the Tiananmen crackdown; he describes the ploys and double crosses China's top leaders use to gain advantage over one another; and he talks of the necessity for China to adopt democracy in order to achieve long-term stability.

The China that Zhao portrays is not some long-lost dynasty. It is today’s China, where the nation’s leaders accept economic freedom but continue to resist political change.

If Zhao had survived—that is, if the hard-line hadn’t prevailed during Tiananmen—he might have been able to steer China’s political system toward more openness and tolerance.

Zhao’s call to begin lifting the Party's control over China's life—to let a little freedom into the public square—is remarkable coming from a man who had once dominated that square. Although Zhao now speaks from the grave in this moving and riveting memoir, his voice has the moral power to make China sit up and listen.

BAO PU, a political commentator and veteran human rights activist, is a publisher and editor of New Century Press in Hong Kong.

RENEE CHIANG is a publisher and the English editor of New Century Press in Hong Kong. As a teacher in Beijing in 1989, she was an eyewitness to the Tiananmen Square crackdown.

ADI IGNATIUS is an American journalist who covered China for The Wall Street Journal during the Zhao Ziyang era. He most recently served as Time magazine’s deputy managing editor.

ZHAO AT TIANANMEN BEFORE THE MASSACRE “I was trying to persuade them to end the hunger strike . . . I felt it was a waste for these young students to end their lives like this. [The students could not] imagine the treatment in store for them.”

ZHAO ON EVADING HIS JAILERS “After I played at Chang Ping Golf Course, the news was released . . . Both Jiang Zemin and Li Peng became extremely anxious. They condemned the decision and began an investigation to find out who had allowed me to go out to play golf.”

ZHAO ON HOW CHINA MUST CHANGE “Not only should [China] implement a market economy, it must also adopt a parliamentary democracy as its political system.”
"

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Subwoofah
Why do you hate Falun Gong so much? Have you had real life contact with any of these groups (Uighur, Falun Gong, Tibetan)?

Because it's a western funded organization that turn a religious movement into a political one.

Do you see Hamas newspaper serve beside Metro and other free paper boxes? Yet Epoch Times are everywhere. Both Chinese and English version. It mixed actual news with bat shit insane propaganda that make News of the World look normal.

Then they have that travel Divine whatever shit show to fund their organization.

But as much as I hate them, I know they won't go away. Just like those insane Militias in US that want to kill Obama. There will always be a counter government force.

[Subwoofah]

So because the West funded the movement and you're seeing their newspapers around town, you hate Falun Gong?

So anyone who wants freedoms within their country, who is supported by the West and has a newspaper that tells their side of the story, is someone you hate?

What about the people and their suffering? You've turned a blind eye to that because the west is giving them money?

"Because it's a western funded organization that turn a religious movement into a political one."

Religious movement into a political one? If you're getting killed because of your religious beliefs you think that the organization should not voice their concerns to politicians? Sounds like censorship to me...

[Subwoofah]

"With this as the political backdrop, levying ill-researched and unsubstantiated charges at Tibetan culture — in fact the very charges often employed by their Chinese occupiers to delegitimize their entire society — is a dangerous game indeed. It is one thing to offer criticisms of a culture or religion that is not fighting for its very survival. It is quite another to rewrite the history of a people who are already the victims of a propaganda war at the hands of one of the largest propaganda machines in the world. "

http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/a-...tory-of-tibet/

Very good words.

[Subwoofah]

But back to the original topic... China is trying to assert its censorship powers over other countries...

"AUSTRALIA'S ambassador to China has rushed back to Canberra for high-level meetings about reviving the ailing relationship, as Beijing stepped up its anti-Canberra rhetoric.

Chinese state-owned media largely ignored the $50 billion liquefied natural gas deal trumpeted by the Rudd Government as a sign of a strong relationship, instead calling for sanctions against Australian tourism, education and iron ore.

An editorial in the China Daily, the Communist Party's English-language mouthpiece, said Australia's ''sinophobic politicians'' were leading the world's ''anti-China chorus'' and ''siding with a terrorist'', a reference to exiled Uighur leader Rebiya Kadeer.

Ambassador Geoff Raby yesterday arrived in Canberra for what one Australian official described as emergency meetings, but what a spokesman for Foreign Minister Stephen Smith said were routine meetings with ministers and department officials. Mr Raby yesterday cancelled engagements in Beijing."


http://infidelsunite.typepad.com/cou...terrorist.html

[remarx-j]

very few actually people care, whether it's people in china or people not in china. and now that the issues are out (somewhat) most people still don't care.
i mean, you have george clooney and angelina jolie promoting awareness in darfur but regular people still don't give a shit about what's happening there.

hate to break it to you guys but nobody gives a shit what's happening in china

[Sugarphreak]

....