Quantcast
What’s in a name? Certainly not a job if it sounds ethnic - Beyond.ca - Car Forums
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 31

Thread: What’s in a name? Certainly not a job if it sounds ethnic

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    338
    Rep Power
    18

    Default What’s in a name? Certainly not a job if it sounds ethnic

    Think this extends to Canada?

    July 5, 2009

    What’s in a name? Certainly not a job if it sounds ethnic
    Jenni Russell
    Recommend?
    Names are powerful signals. They conjure up images. Fareeda Khan. Thandi Zuma. Henrietta Cavendish. Leroy Smith. Read them and, in an instant, a shadowy impression forms in your mind. Before you know anything else about an individual, you start making assumptions about them based on what you know or have read about Fareedas, Henriettas, Leroys or Zumas.

    In Britain in 2009, having a name that doesn’t sound white can lose you a chance of a job. The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) has just sent out bogus CVs in response to a thousand job vacancies. In every case it sent one application with a name that sounded British and white and one application with a name that sounded as if it was from an ethnic minority.

    The fake applicants had near-identical qualifications and experience. Yet, 44 years after the Race Relations Act outlawed discrimination on the grounds of race, the imaginary white applicants were significantly more likely to be given interviews than the imaginary nonwhite ones. Although the DWP has not finished analysing the data, Vera Baird, the solicitor-general, said the evidence suggested “there was quite a strong sense that there is race discrimination going on”.

    The DWP conducted the experiment because there is a real problem with finding a job in Britain if you are not white: 73% of the general population are employed, but only 60% of ethnic minorities are. For some, part of the explanation is they leave school without many qualifications, but that is certainly not the whole story.

    Overall, people from ethnic minorities don’t even get the jobs their qualifications make them fit for. In 2003, No 10’s Strategy Unit concluded that all minority groups – “even those enjoying relative success, like the Indians and Chinese, are not doing as well as they could be, given their education and other characteristics”. That year the Institute for Employment Studies found that while employers were not short of ethnic minority applicants, they “failed to progress through the recruitment system compared to whites”.

    This is not a minor matter. Cutting groups and communities off from jobs keeps them poor and socially isolated and makes individuals angry and depressed. It makes successful role models rare. Yet it is very difficult for any one person to be able to show that the reason they didn’t get called to an interview or offered a promotion was their race. The appeal of an experiment such as the DWP’s is its simplicity. No explanation other than discrimination is possible. But neither the Tories nor the employers’ organisations accept that this evidence is worth acting on.

    Theresa May, the Tory spokeswoman on work and pensions, called the research “a waste of taxpayers’ cash”. The CBI questioned whether the research was fair and then added loftily: “Job applicants are already protected from discrimination when going through the recruitment process and can take legal action if treated differently.”

    This is, of course, legalistic nonsense. It’s rare for anyone to know they are being treated differently and rarer still for them to want to go to the law about it. As it happens, I have a close friend who knows exactly how rife discrimination is because she carried out the same experiment as the DWP.

    A Sri Lankan married to an Englishman, when she qualified as an accountant she applied in her maiden name for a couple of dozen jobs. As Sonali Jayasuriya she was not called to a single interview in two months. Alarmed, she started filling in forms in her married name and Sonali Young was given interviews for every job she inquired about.

    Her case gives us a clue about what may be going on in the workplace. It would be naive not to think that in some cases straight racism is the issue. A few years ago a third of Britons thought it would be problematic to work for a boss of a different race. But it’s often likely to be something rather more subtle: that employers are looking for someone whose signals indicate they could fit in with and belong to the existing group.

    Overwhelmingly, people recruit others like themselves. We prefer working and socialising with a homogeneous group. It makes life simpler. When recruiters scan CVs they are essentially decoding them, drawing conclusions about people’s background, attitudes and skills.

    If outright racial prejudice were the issue, Sonali’s foreign first name, or her dark skin, should still have ruled her out. But her English surname signalled, accurately, that she was already partly integrated into the dominant culture. She was easy to absorb and her career has flourished.

    The preference for those outsiders who wish to integrate exists in all societies. That understanding, sometimes fuelled by fear, is why so many Jews arriving in England or America in the past, chose to Anglicise their names. That decision carried the implicit message; I am willing to be part of your group. It is a powerful message, easily understood. It works universally. A white friend of mine in South Africa was given her Zulu name at birth. In a country where whites are often resented, her non-white name means that she is welcomed everywhere, every day. She is profoundly grateful for it.

    Over the past 40 years in Britain the assumption of the past, that it was the task of newcomers to fit in, has disappeared. The official language has become one of welcoming difference. In practice that helps to create real barriers for individuals from ethnic minorities who are trying to get on in the workplace. They have been cut off from the social codes, networks and unwritten rules of the host community.

    Bridging those gaps is imperative because we can’t afford to live in a country where racial divisions grow, and are fuelled by poverty and unemployment. One of the answers is to make it easier for those who want to to integrate. People hold onto cultural difference so resolutely partly because they have no confidence that they will have a valued place in the host society if they surrender it.

    Integration begins with work, which is the route to giving people status and pride. Which is why it makes sense to support the government’ s answer to the prejudice it uncovered; banning names from application forms. Employers are objecting, but at least the very first hurdle in a job search would be eliminated. Because as long as the first reaction to “Leroy Smith” or “Fareeda Khan” is “black”, rather than “potential CEO”, there is a genuine problem here.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    331
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    another 'study'
    useless read

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Left Coast
    My Ride
    Audi
    Posts
    1,348
    Rep Power
    24

    Default

    It definately extends to Canada and it's not just race.

    If an employer can't read your name on a piece of paper, you're going to have a hard time. I admit it, i've overlooked resume's before simply because I couldn't read the name. I know i'm not the only one out there that has done it too.

    If your name gives someone a negative impression you're going to see similar problems. For example, your name is Candy/Ginger, your resume is identical to someone named Jennifer/Cheryl and you're both applying at a daycare.

    Another example is the actor Kal Penn (aka Kumar). His real name is Kalpen Modi, he found he got more auditions after he used a stage name:

    Penn says that he derived his acting name, Kal Penn, as a lark: “Almost as a joke to prove friends wrong, and half as an attempt to see if what I was told would work (that anglicized names appeal more to a white-dominated industry), I put ‘Kal Penn’ on my resume and photos." His audition callbacks rose by 50 percent.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    782
    Rep Power
    17

    Default

    I've heard of it happening in Calgary, not sure how true it is though.

    Person told me that they applied for a job using their real name which of course wasn't 'white' never got any feedback..he then started to apply with a 'white name' and got call back for a number of jobs.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Vancouver
    Posts
    4,006
    Rep Power
    25

    Default

    Ive seen this happen a few times at old jobs. I wonder how it works on the other end.. White Names in China and India
    2011 Mercedes C63 AMG //2009 Mercedes C350 SOLD //2008 BMW 335i SOLD //2006 Mercedes C Sold// 2002 BMW M3 SOLD// 2004 Porsche C4S SOLD// 2006 Audi S4 SOLD// 2005 Audi 1.8T SS SOLD// 2004 Subaru STi SOLD// 1994 LHD Toyota Supra SOLD//1993 LHD Mazda RX-7 SOLD // 2002 Honda S2000 SC SOLD// 2004 Range Rover SOLD//

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    calgary
    My Ride
    14' C63 507 Edition Coupe
    Posts
    415
    Rep Power
    19

    Default

    Originally posted by B4tMan
    another 'study'
    useless read
    Another useless comment as usual...YA NO SHIT IT WAS A STUDY THANKS CAPTAIN OBVIOUS

    I found that pretty interesting, thanks for posting it

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    calgary
    My Ride
    SC 03 eclipse, 06 TJ,Shadow1100, HD FXSTC, Chopper
    Posts
    281
    Rep Power
    17

    Default

    Makes sence to me, if you live in an english speaking country with a name nobody can pronounce it will obviously hinder your chances of getting a job.

    Not saying it is right but i can understand the issue.
    Member since 2003.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    782
    Rep Power
    17

    Default

    Originally posted by 3g4u
    Makes sence to me, if you live in an english speaking country with a name nobody can pronounce it will obviously hinder your chances of getting a job.

    Not saying it is right but i can understand the issue.

    some names are a bit extreme I'll admit that..
    but what about the others than anyone can pronounce?
    Just that they aren't 'white' name ?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Calgary, AB
    Posts
    752
    Rep Power
    17

    Default

    What about in situations where the stereotype for a certain minority group would actually be beneficial towards a job? Like the sterotype that asians/middle eastern people are good with math, so they would be good engineers or mathematicians.

    Ive been applying for internship jobs at engineering companies with my asian name, and Ive gotten a ton of interviews. It was only after 10+ rejections that I finally got a job, so I wonder if it would have been more effective to have just used a western name in the first place.

    Maybe someone in HR could chime in and give their honest opinion on how they percieve names?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    calgary
    My Ride
    SC 03 eclipse, 06 TJ,Shadow1100, HD FXSTC, Chopper
    Posts
    281
    Rep Power
    17

    Default

    Originally posted by nobb
    What about in situations where the stereotype for a certain minority group would actually be beneficial towards a job?
    Well where would the story be in that?
    Member since 2003.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Calgary
    My Ride
    E550 Coupe (M278)
    Posts
    1,167
    Rep Power
    21

    Default

    Originally posted by nobb
    What about in situations where the stereotype for a certain minority group would actually be beneficial towards a job? Like the sterotype that asians/middle eastern people are good with math, so they would be good engineers or mathematicians.
    See, I can get where this is true. I mean I don't know about you, but I would not be hiring white people if I owned a Chinese restaurant.

    Get your 'hot dog fried rice' out of here.
    -James
    Current beast: E550 Coupe (M278)
    Previous beasts: AM Vantage, E90 335i (modded + JB4 Map2), E39 M5

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    331
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Originally posted by vtec4life
    Another useless comment as usual...YA NO SHIT IT WAS A STUDY THANKS CAPTAIN OBVIOUS

    I found that pretty interesting, thanks for posting it
    If one looks hard enough, one finds faults everywhere.

    These kind of studies are supposed to rile up the population against an invisible enemy and give motivation for minorities to feel threatened, as if their rights were not taken in consideration. In some cases it is true, but not in all.


    On top of that, I was anticipating posts such as the below one, where polemic is used to reinforce possible facts :
    Originally posted by Trini
    I've heard of it happening in Calgary, not sure how true it is though.[...]
    That is the reason why I found this read useless.


    Ideas ? ... Vtec for life : )

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    calgary
    My Ride
    14' C63 507 Edition Coupe
    Posts
    415
    Rep Power
    19

    Default

    holy shit man take it easy.

    you typed that first post praying for someone like me to say what I said didnt you?

    So you can go to your thesaurus and pull out a couple big words to put in your next post.

    I see through you.......I mean E-you

    People have the choice to beleive what ever they want, and if after reading that study they feel threatened or discriminated against by an invisible army then so be it... I personally dont, and I dont think you do either because you probably have never been discriminated against for your name.

    Unfortunately a large portion of society believes everything they read and certain organizations exploit that but theres nothing we can do... is there?

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    331
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    I was praying people would not read this useless study ? :$

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    3,707
    Rep Power
    24

    Default

    once i saw leroy i thought of leroy jenkins,....

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    calgary
    My Ride
    14' C63 507 Edition Coupe
    Posts
    415
    Rep Power
    19

    Default

    hahaha alright alright good for you man you win

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    My Ride
    Bicycle
    Posts
    9,278
    Rep Power
    49

    Default




    The study confirm what all minorities know all along.

    Very few minority names are easy on the tongue in English and a minority last name can be stereotyped to carry possible communication issues.

    And in HK and possible some part of China, trends that everyone pick an English name anyway. You're ghetto without one.
    Last edited by Xtrema; 07-15-2009 at 05:14 PM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Calgary
    My Ride
    Buffalo Truck & An Angry Kitty
    Posts
    2,603
    Rep Power
    27

    Default

    I don't think it's right but it's not a surprise at all. I see it in my line of work all the time. The staff that have names which are difficult to read / pronounce by your average white client / manager rarely make it too far up the ladder.

    Saddly I have to think that if I had an ethnic name I would be inclined to go by something "westernized" for at least a first name.

    I too wonder if it's the reverse in other nations? Does John Smith have a hard time getting a job in Tokyo?
    "Masked Bandit is a gateway drug for frugal spending." - Unknown303

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Calgary
    My Ride
    an econo box
    Posts
    148
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    You see these studies on the news every once in a while. Educated immigrants having a hard time finding jobs in their field of study, forced to drive taxis etc. to get by.

    Let me give you the employer's side of the story:


    It is not that employers are racist, or whatever, most of it is concern about WRITTEN english levels. Their spoken english is adequate 99% of the time. But written english is another story.

    For example: One of my employees is from the Middle East. He's an awesome employee, very reliable and even educated in Canada (UBC). Good spoken english. One day he had to send a report to our head office. I didn't think it would be a problem until I saw the report he sent. It looked like it was written by an eight year old.

    When I'm hiring I don't overlook ethnic names. I give them the benefit of the doubt and will ask for a cover letter and give them an interview. You never know. A lot of people with South Asian names were born and raised here.


    All this being said, I'm noticing a disturbing trend amongst white Canadian born as well. I'm amazed how many people have graduated university not knowing simple things like the difference between "your" and "you're" or "there, their, they're".
    Last edited by KrisYYC; 07-16-2009 at 01:54 PM.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Calgary, AB
    My Ride
    A vehicle or two
    Posts
    4,436
    Rep Power
    32

    Default

    Oh whatever. This doesn't take into consideration the tens of thousands of Chandrabhushan Khushnaseeb's we employ in India to handle our call centers.
    Last edited by Kloubek; 07-16-2009 at 01:58 PM.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Call to limit ethnic malls in Calgary angers Asians

    By urban.one in forum Society / Law / Current Events / Politics
    Replies: 142
    Latest Threads: 09-07-2011, 09:29 PM
  2. Future Prime Minister Ethnic background?

    By barmanjay in forum Society / Law / Current Events / Politics
    Replies: 43
    Latest Threads: 11-05-2008, 10:38 PM
  3. Alberta government okays ethnic slurs on vanity licence plates

    By Proboscis in forum General Car/Bike Talk
    Replies: 20
    Latest Threads: 09-16-2006, 11:04 AM
  4. Ethnic Cleansing Awards

    By Toms-SC in forum Society / Law / Current Events / Politics
    Replies: 6
    Latest Threads: 12-20-2004, 01:37 PM
  5. Brand name strut tower braces vs. no name

    By sxtasy in forum Mechanical
    Replies: 7
    Latest Threads: 11-09-2003, 12:12 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •