First Nations Passports = Valid?

[Tomaz]

Originally posted by Freeskier
lol, what?? that doesn't make any sense! I'm saying that they have every right to have a measure of sovereignty while still falling under Canadian social systems and infrastructure. Canada is a population of immigrants and we all have a right to citizenship and the freedoms and rights that this allows us...

Hence where THEIR problem lies. They are making themselves more and more separated from this country but expect all the benefits of being here. Why don't they do what every other immigrant from all over the world does? I'm sure the Government would not mind if they became part of the multicultural mosaic called Canada.

I look at it like if i went to a company and asked for money, health plan, insurance plan, my own office, a company vehicle and no deductions on my paycheque... But not actually work there. Bad generalization, but you get the idea.

[Freeskier]

Originally posted by Tomaz


Hence where THEIR problem lies. They are making themselves more and more separated from this country but expect all the benefits of being here. Why don't they do what every other immigrant from all over the world does? I'm sure the Government would not mind if they became part of the multicultural mosaic called Canada.

I look at it like if i went to a company and asked for money, health plan, insurance plan, my own office, a company vehicle and no deductions on my paycheque... But not actually work there. Bad generalization, but you get the idea.

yeah i see your point. I'm still pretty unsure on how I feel about these kind of things. And that analogy was pretty dece

[mx73someday]

Originally posted by Nissanaddict
If they're getting handouts, how come I can't roll into Germany or Russia with my Polish passport, and ask them for money?

Because you probably don't have a land claim issue. Were you living a nomadic life on a giant piece of semi-claimed land when a group of people decided to form a country on the entire continent?

[spikerS]

Originally posted by mx73someday


Because you probably don't have a land claim issue. Were you living a nomadic life on a giant piece of semi-claimed land when a group of people decided to form a country on the entire continent?

They tried to stop it, and lost the fight. now, a few hundred years later, idiots decide to feel sorry for them.

[Integra10]

Originally posted by mx73someday


Because you probably don't have a land claim issue. Were you living a nomadic life on a giant piece of semi-claimed land when a group of people decided to form a country on the entire continent?

No but neither were any of them. I'm sure I have ancestors that lived without electricity but I don't refuse it.

[mx73someday]

I don't necessarily support the native land claims, I'm just arguing why Nissanaddict can't do something similar, he would need a legit claim to the land first.

[Dilmah]

How many generations of my family need to be born in Canada to be considered "native"? Go back far enough and we're all from someplace else¡_

[Tomaz]

Anyone else waiting for Kloubeck (sp?) to add to this thread?

[kaput]

.

[Freeskier]

a comment from a cbc story about this:

It wouldn't hurt me if all acknowledged aboriginals had a special press (seal) in their passport of the recognized nation within which they live. This would give them ease of passage while having papers controlled by their nation of residence and tribal relation. (cause for dispute?)

solution??

[Antonito]

Originally posted by spikers


They tried to stop it, and lost the fight. now, a few hundred years later, idiots decide to feel sorry for them.

Well there's that and all the other shit that got done to them in the few hundred years since then as well

[broken_legs]

Why does anyone care if they have their own passports?

Thats just going to restrict their travel options and cause them to get visas like someone from a muslim country or south america has to when they travel. Evidence by the story - They were denied entrance into Canada lol

Why is this a big deal? They aren't "Canadian" - They don't get a Canadian passport. Who cares?

[Antonito]

I've long since stopped being surprised by the complete lack of empathy on Beyond for natives when it comes to social issues like crime and poverty.

However, it still is amazing when something as asinine as this news sparks little e-rants like this:

Originally posted by Masked Bandit
That's fine.

As long as that document is up to international standards with regards to anti-fraud features and issuance guidelines.

Oh ya, and as long as each passport holder accepts not a single penny of Canadian tax dollars FOR ANYTHING IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM. No personal funding, no social services, community infastructure including police, fire or EMS, roads, schools, etc. If you're taking Canadian tax dollars to fund your little camp site then guess what sunshine, you're a Canadian citizen and need to follow the same rules as everyone else.

Just the levels of indignant rage over the injustices inflicted upon Canadians by having tens of dollars stolen from someones taxes every year to fund native programs, and having drunken smelly natives taking up the precious air on the c-train, and natives buying stolen x-boxes with welfare money, and their casinos and our precious precious ring road WHEN WILL THE MADNESS STOP

All the while usually followed up with rants of "whatever with their fucking hundreds of years of murder and rape and oppression. Suck it up you fucking pussies. If I can work a part time job to help my parents pay for my university, you guys can get over it too"

I realise this is premature as this thread hasn't reached the 10 or 12 page disasters that most native threads get to, but I guess this is a pre-emptive

[Masked Bandit]

Originally posted by Antonito
I've long since stopped being surprised by the complete lack of empathy on Beyond for natives when it comes to social issues like crime and poverty.

However, it still is amazing when something as asinine as this news sparks little e-rants like this:



Just the levels of indignant rage over the injustices inflicted upon Canadians by having tens of dollars stolen from someones taxes every year to fund native programs, and having drunken smelly natives taking up the precious air on the c-train, and natives buying stolen x-boxes with welfare money, and their casinos and our precious precious ring road WHEN WILL THE MADNESS STOP

All the while usually followed up with rants of "whatever with their fucking hundreds of years of murder and rape and oppression. Suck it up you fucking pussies. If I can work a part time job to help my parents pay for my university, you guys can get over it too"

I realise this is premature as this thread hasn't reached the 10 or 12 page disasters that most native threads get to, but I guess this is a pre-emptive

I have the opinions I do on the subject based on growing up in an area where natives made up about 20% of the population. For 20 years I saw first hand what the MAJORITY of these people did with their government hand outs which were paid for by my father at the time and now me. Maybe you've seen the same things, maybe not, but don't come on here and tell me that my opinions aren't based on NOTHING BUT FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE.

[Integra10]

Originally posted by broken_legs
Why does anyone care if they have their own passports?

Thats just going to restrict their travel options and cause them to get visas like someone from a muslim country or south america has to when they travel. Evidence by the story - They were denied entrance into Canada lol

Why is this a big deal? They aren't "Canadian" - They don't get a Canadian passport. Who cares?

If they carry their own passports than they are citizens of their own country. Therefore their government should provide for them and not ours. I do not expect as a Canadian citizen holding a Canadian passport to be supported by England. If you want to be citizens of your own state fine but don't expect to be supported by ours. Not to mention the security flaws with their passports.

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by Integra10


If they carry their own passports than they are citizens of their own country. Therefore their government should provide for them and not ours. I do not expect as a Canadian citizen holding a Canadian passport to be supported by England. If you want to be citizens of your own state fine but don't expect to be supported by ours. Not to mention the security flaws with their passports.

So really everyone is upset about giving money to natives, not the actual passports.

AFAIK - Their government does provide for them. All money from Canada goes to the band or to the chiefs I do believe. From there it goes to the individuals.

So it seems that their government (6nations) has an agreement with our government (Canadia). And its the 6 nations government that does provide for its own people.

They've had passports for how many years now? How many innocent tax paying babies have died because of this? I just don't see this issue as related.

[Integra10]

Originally posted by broken_legs


So really everyone is upset about giving money to natives, not the actual passports.

AFAIK - Their government does provide for them. All money from Canada goes to the band or to the chiefs I do believe. From there it goes to the individuals.

So it seems that their government (6nations) has an agreement with our government (Canadia). And its the 6 nations government that does provide for its own people.

They've had passports for how many years now? How many innocent tax paying babies have died because of this? I just don't see this issue as related.

If Canada is giving them money than it is not their government providing for them.

From wiki: A passport is a document, issued by a national government, which certifies, for the purpose of international travel, the identity and nationality of its holder. The elements of identity are name, date of birth, sex, and place of birth. Most often, nationality and citizenship are congruent.

If they are traveling by their own passport than they are citizens of their own country. They want to become Canadian citizens fine. We owe them that. But if they want their own separate state than so be it. Become self sufficient and provide for yourselves. Don't expect to be citizens of your own country and have our tax payers provide for you and give you benefits that our own citizens do not receive. You can't just sit on the fence and expect all the rewards and none of the downfalls of being your own state.

Also I'm so sick of that whole "we" took their land. I don't know about anyone else on here but I haven't taken a piece of land from anyone else in my life. Yes the English did take their land generations ago. You know what we did with it? Built a flourishing and prosperous nation. A nation that people around the world want to become citizens of but many can't. They have a shot at something people around the world would kill for but are too stubborn to see what they have. I for one am completely in support of cutting of all funding to them. Not because they are "Natives" but because I don't want any group of people claiming to be a state with in a state and than relying on my tax dollars. Especially if they think they are seperate from our nation. I would much rather give my money to a country who requires is alot more. Like Haiti for instance.The money I work for has alot more important things to go to IMHO.

[sexualbanana]

I guess I should have seen that this thread was going to nosedive into the usual arguments. To get this back on track, if I can...

From what I've gathered in the various other articles I've read is that this aboriginal passport is issued to the Iroquois because their lands exist on both sides of the Canada-USA border, so in order to help them move between their lands this passport was created. The issue here is apparently on two points:
1) The Iroquois feel as though they would lose their native identity by having to apply for a Canadian or American passport.
2) Since other countries have accepted the use of these aboriginal passports before, they should be accepted universally. So in a sense, this has become a case where a rule that hasn't been uniformly enforced is now becoming enforced.

So to discuss those points, do you think that holding a Canadian or American passport would make someone less of an Iroquois? And, does the sudden enforcement of the lack of validity of the aboriginal passport seem fair when other governments have allowed their use?

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by sexualbanana
I guess I should have seen that this thread was going to nosedive into the usual arguments. To get this back on track, if I can...

From what I've gathered in the various other articles I've read is that this aboriginal passport is issued to the Iroquois because their lands exist on both sides of the Canada-USA border, so in order to help them move between their lands this passport was created. The issue here is apparently on two points:
1) The Iroquois feel as though they would lose their native identity by having to apply for a Canadian or American passport.
2) Since other countries have accepted the use of these aboriginal passports before, they should be accepted universally. So in a sense, this has become a case where a rule that hasn't been uniformly enforced is now becoming enforced.

So to discuss those points, do you think that holding a Canadian or American passport would make someone less of an Iroquois? And, does the sudden enforcement of the lack of validity of the aboriginal passport seem fair when other governments have allowed their use?

Is the issue that a passport was created for the Iroquois? Or that their nation actually crosses the borders of two countries?

It seems to me that the 'Iroquos Nation', being both on US and Canadian soil is neither US nor Canadian.

[traviswithaG]

It's like they are going backwards. Everywhere you see the whole world becomming more and more united. Everyone working together is smarter and stronger than everyone working against eachother.

Also to contribute... I was under the assumption We could travel freely between Canada and the states, with a Canadian passportor American passport.

If it's just, We want our own passport becuase we fucking hate Canada thing. Than stop wasting everyones time. If there is logical reasons other than just wanting there own thing than let them?? perhaps I should read up on this a lil more before I give my opinion.. as should eveyone else..

Edit... The whole Loosing the Native Identity is bs IMO. Canada is multi cultural...

There Passport being accepted world wide. Isint that up to each country on an individual basis?