Chief Statistician, Munir Sheikh resigns over Conservatives decision to scrap census

[Nusc]

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/St...387/story.html

Where ideology clashes with evidence based decision making.

[01RedDX]

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[Nusc]

Unreliable data for policy making.

[CUG]

Ignatieff's opinion doesn't mean shit anymore, I don't know why people quote him. He set up the PR excuses for a failing Iraq war while in the US and aided in producing less threatening "policy" that aided the invasion. Ignatieff is a fucking hack idiot.

Liberals, holy shit.

The Sheikh guy sounds smart as hell though, and very professional about leaving.

[Nusc]

I'm not quoting Ignatieff. CUG you are statistically illiterate.

Iraq has nothing to do with the OP.

[CUG]

6

[DayGlow]

Last time checked the Tories haven't scrapped the census, only made it voluntary. Or are you cool with the idea that the government can demand your person private information with the threat of jailing you?

[Freeskier]

^^

I'd rather my government has reliable info with which to decide on policy. And ps: voluntary = scrapped, a fraction of the normal number are gonna volunteer to do it, reducing the sample size, reducing statistical power and furthermore it biases the study because only certain kinds of individuals (politically aware and active) will participate.

[DayGlow]

No scrapped would mean cancelled. Voluntary means having the option if you choose. I'd say there is a difference.

Should the government force people to vote under the threat of jail? Right now elections are biased because only the politically aware vote.

[Freeskier]

I meant as good as scrapped for all the validity it'll now hold.

[GTS4tw]

Originally posted by DayGlow
No scrapped would mean cancelled. Voluntary means having the option if you choose. I'd say there is a difference.

Should the government force people to vote under the threat of jail? Right now elections are biased because only the politically aware vote.

Damn, I agree 100% with Dayglow, that doesn't happen often. This is a positive step, one freedom restored. Now just a couple million other freedoms and we might be "free".

[Gainsbarre]

Making a census voluntary instead of mandatory cripples the integrity of the data collected, as it is virtually impossible to correct for the non-random response that is associated with voluntary surveys. Anybody who has conducted any serious research using solid demographic data knows this.

I suspect that the conservatives are trying to shut out those pesky special interest groups by doing this -- eliminating highly reliable data sources such as this one will severely limit the effectiveness of research to guide policy decisions and decision making. It's pretty authoritian for the alleged minister of industry to scrap this without any industry consultation whatsoever -- well he keeps mentioning these vague people who feel that their privacy has been invaded but I don't think he's revealed exactly who they are. Any idiot can fabricate imaginary supporters for their draconian causes.

Originally posted by DayGlow
Last time checked the Tories haven't scrapped the census, only made it voluntary. Or are you cool with the idea that the government can demand your person private information with the threat of jailing you?

They already do that when you file your income tax, among MANY other things. I'll maybe buy that "invasion of privacy" bullshit excuse when we no longer have to file income taxes?

[01RedDX]

.

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by DayGlow
Last time checked the Tories haven't scrapped the census, only made it voluntary. Or are you cool with the idea that the government can demand your person private information with the threat of jailing you?

^^^ This.

Originally posted by GTS4tw


Damn, I agree 100% with Dayglow, that doesn't happen often. This is a positive step, one freedom restored. Now just a couple million other freedoms and we might be "free".

^^^ This.


It's not cool. None of the governments business. You have a right to privacy.

Something tells me that the country is going to get along just fine without a mandatory census.

que typical beyonder:

Whats the big deal? To make my life easier you have to give up your rights. tin foil hat blah blah blah.

Originally posted by Gainsbarre


They already do that when you file your income tax, among MANY other things. I'll maybe buy that "invasion of privacy" bullshit excuse when we no longer have to file income taxes?

So you agree there is already sufficient data collected. There is no need to waste more money on a census and further invade peoples privacy.


Comments on tha article from the link:
"Welcome to Canadanimal farm"

Man people are seriously misguided! Allowing people the right to privacy is communism now??? LOL

[mx73someday]

Voluntary surveys seem to be effective for private companies that do market research. Why would it be different if the voluntary survey is conducted by government? Is there still a threat of force if you give false information on a government survey?

I suspect that the conservatives are trying to shut out those pesky special interest groups by doing this --
eliminating highly reliable data sources such as this one will severely limit the effectiveness of research to guide policy decisions and decision making.

You assume that the people calling themselves government are adept at policy and decision making, they aren't. What's wrong with hurting special interest groups?

It's pretty authoritian for the alleged minister of industry to scrap this without any industry consultation whatsoever -- well he keeps mentioning these vague people who feel that their privacy has been invaded but I don't think he's revealed exactly who they are. Any idiot can fabricate imaginary supporters for their draconian causes.

How is replacing a coerced service with a voluntary one authoritarian? Democracy is supposed to be about representing and serving individuals, not industries. Every time they interfere with industry or the market, it only hurts the consumer.

Would you like them to print a list of individual constituents that asked for the service to become voluntary? Would that be less vague?

And forcing people to do things under threat of violence is not draconian? Do you work for government?

[Freeskier]

Originally posted by mx73someday

How is replacing a coerced service with a voluntary one authoritarian?

Not the point, one minister making such an important decision is the point he was making. I'm not getting involved in that particular side of it though lol.

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by Freeskier


Not the point, one minister making such an important decision is the point he was making. I'm not taking sides in that one though

Hypothertically: if it went to a national vote and 51% of people believed that you had no right to privacy and that the other 49% of people should go to jail if they didn't comply - Would that make it OK?

Or does it only have to be 10% of people that don't want to take part? Or maybe 5%?

[Freeskier]

I'm not totally sure of what you mean, but then again...I've had a few (why am I on beyond?!). But, in a true democracy in which majority ruled, then yes... 51% do have the ruling vote. I'm not sure where you'd get 51% of people voting to send the other 49% to jail, but i guess it could happen theoretically. Again, I'm not sure if I'm missing the point though.

[Gainsbarre]

I tried explaining the data integrity problem of voluntary surveys in my own words. Maybe the words of professional statisticians is more credible? From the second paragraph on page 8:

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11f0019...006274-eng.pdf

A second appealing feature of the Census is its coverage. Response to the Census is mandatory by
law, and as such, coverage of the population is almost complete, with the exception of very specific
groups (most notably, on-reserve Aboriginals, individuals in collective dwellings, and the
homeless). Response to the SCF/SLID is voluntary, and roughly 20% of selected households choose
not to do so. This creates the potential for response bias that may be related to income. The
SCF/SLID datasets include weights calculated so that key sample characteristics mimic those of the
population as a whole, but income is not one of the characteristics. Thus, to the extent that response
bias is related to income, even after controlling for observables that are directly addressed by the
weights, the weighted income distribution obtained from the SCF/SLID may still not correspond to
that for the whole population.3 The population coverage on T1FF is quite good, but only after 1993
when the combination of incentives from child tax credits and goods and services tax (GST) rebates
improved the filing incentives for very low income individuals.

I agree in that this particular government isn't adept at policy making or listening to its constituents either. Holding the G20 in downtown Toronto, pissing away our CANDU technology, scrapping the long form census, continually electing unqualified senators (including an old fart who isn't even fucking literate) -- who voted for / asked for these measures? Ever heard of "Peace, order, and good governement"?

Theres a huge long list of individuals / groups who have spoken out against this change. Who are these people who are complaining about their privacy being violated? I assume if they are concerned about this, they're also concerned about things such as filing income tax or applying for car insurance.

(from http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/201...se-census.html)

Ever since the move was announced in late June, statisticians, researchers, academics, municipalities, religious groups and others have decried the move, arguing it will result in skewed and unreliable data.

In an interview with CBC Radio's The House, Clement says that despite the criticism, coming during the summer when many people are not paying attention to politics, he is not going to take another look at the issue.

"No, we're not," he said. "We've heard from Canadians from all walks of life who are quite relieved that we're taking this position as well."

Clement and other Conservative ministers have been arguing that many Canadians complained to them about the intrusiveness of the questions on the long-form census and the threat of fines or jail time if they don't complete it.

Opposition MPs say they have not heard such complaints and the privacy commissioner has said complaints about the census have actually declined over the years.

Kind of like believing the government that we "need to get tough on crime" when crime rates have been falling for decades. Government makes a statement that is contrary to reality, yet some people seem to immediately believe it without question.

[masoncgy]

^ I have a feeling that if these changes were proposed by a Liberal government, you would be in full support of it...

...and since when do we 'elect senators' in this country?