Multiculturalism doesn't work!

[old&slow]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11532699

German Chancellor Angela Merkel: "lmmigrants should learn to speak German"

Attempts to build a multicultural society in Germany have "utterly failed", Chancellor Angela Merkel says.

In a speech in Potsdam, she said the so-called "multikulti" concept - where people would "live side-by-side" happily - did not work.

Mrs Merkel's comments come amid recent outpourings of strong anti-immigrant feeling from mainstream politicians.

A recent survey showed that more than 30% of Germans believed Germany was "overrun by foreigners".
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The study - by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation think-tank - also showed that roughly the same number thought that some 16 million of Germany's immigrants or people with foreign origins had come to the country for the social benefits.
Foreign workers

Mrs Merkel told a gathering of younger members of her conservative Christian Democratic Union (CDU) party on Saturday that at "the beginning of the 60s our country called the foreign workers to come to Germany and now they live in our country... We kidded ourselves a while, we said: 'They won't stay, sometime they will be gone', but this isn't reality.

"And of course, the approach [to build] a multicultural [society] and to live side-by-side and to enjoy each other... has failed, utterly failed."

In her speech, the chancellor specifically referred to recent comments by German President Christian Wulff who said that Islam was "part of Germany" like Christianity and Judaism.
Muslims read Koran in Hamburg, file pic Mrs Merkel says Islam is part of Germany but more must be done on integration

While acknowledging that this was the case, Mrs Merkel stressed that immigrants living in Germany needed to do more to integrate, including learning to speak German.

"Anyone who does not immediately speak German", she said, "is not welcome".

By speaking now, Mrs Merkel has now joined the increasingly hot debate on multiculturalism, coming down on the side of those who are uneasy about immigration, says the BBC's correspondent in Berlin, Stephen Evans.

Her comments come a week after she held talks with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, in which the two leaders pledged to do more to improve the often poor integration record of Germany's estimated 2.5 million-strong Turkish community.

Earlier this week, Horst Seehofer, the leader of the CDU's Bavarian sister party, CSU, said about integration that it was "obvious that immigrants from different cultures like Turkey and Arab countries, all in all, find it harder".

"'Multikulti' is dead," Mr Seehofer said.

In August, Thilo Sarrazin, a senior official at Germany's central bank, said that "no immigrant group other than Muslims is so strongly connected with claims on the welfare state and crime". Mr Sarrazin has since resigned.

Such recent strong anti-immigrant feelings from mainstream politicians come amid an anger in Germany about high unemployment, even if the economy is growing faster than those of its rivals, our correspondent says.

He adds that there also seems to be a new strident tone in the country, perhaps leading to less reticence about no-go-areas of the past.

[CUG]

Good for them for speaking their mind. I agree, make the transition less turbulent anywhere you might be going. It would be easier on yourself, never mind the place you're going.

In August, Thilo Sarrazin, a senior official at Germany's central bank, said that "no immigrant group other than Muslims is so strongly connected with claims on the welfare state and crime". Mr Sarrazin has since resigned.

If that's factual, that's hardcore

[calgary403]

Originally posted by CUG
Good for them for speaking their mind. I agree, make the transition less turbulent anywhere you might be going. It would be easier on yourself, never mind the place you're going.

If that's factual, that's hardcore

I don't know....Germany tried this once before and it didn't go over too well.

[kvg]

I'm from Vancouver and it is multicultural. Calgary is more of a melting pot and I don't see anywhere the near the amount of conflict here. There is a huge difference between the two.

[ZenOps]

Interesting.

Its just a matter of time before Japan says that everyone should be speaking Japanese, and kicking out white people - even billionaires from the countr.... Oh wait..

IMO, the toilet was flushed a long time ago, its just a matter of hanging on to the rim for dear life now.

That Kim Jong picked the younger Switzerland educated son and not the Macau gambling son, takes my fear away from him starting WWIII.

Top runner now for starting WWIII - France for sure, which means Newfoundland better watch out. Duceppe seems to be ready to ramp up Quebec as a seperated state (again)

[derpderp]

Originally posted by CUG
Good for them for speaking their mind. I agree, make the transition less turbulent anywhere you might be going. It would be easier on yourself, never mind the place you're going.

If that's factual, that's hardcore

He wrote a book called "Deutschland schafft sich ab". His book has become a best seller in Germany and a huge chunk of the population said they would vote for him if he started a party.

[banned3x]

Have you guys been to quebec?

[core_upt]

Almost all European countries have parties and politicians running on a platform of reduced immigration, some are more blatantly xenophobic or racist then others (by their own words).
It's the balance to years of strong welfare states that nobody complained about when the economy was stronger, and everyone had money. Now that the economy has slowed, it makes it VERY easy to blame immigrants who are 'bleeding' the system and reducing the pool for "real" Germans/Swedes/Danes/French/Brit/Spaniard/etc. The right wing cause has picked up much more steam and media and power in the past few years as they use the economic downturn as a launching point for anti-immigration.
That being said, I think there is a point to be made, just not quite the point these hard right parties are making. Coming to someone's country as an invited guest means you should be a gracious guest. No one wants to invite a friend over for dinner who criticizes the food, demands a more comfortable chair, asks the wall colours to be changed, or makes any other request that the host has not already made in trying to be accomodating. Don't like the food? Choke it down, say thank you, and complain about it WHEN you get home. Of course, the host has a responsibility to not knowingly serve dirt or make their guest sit in squalor.
Multiculturalism is great, but it takes a little take on the host country, and A LOT of give on the guests part to make it work - this balance is VERY hard to achieve, but I don't think the hard right, 'no immigration' policy is the way to go. I do think that some European countries should adopt a better qualifying system to get BETTER immigrants in to their country and to have these immigrants integrate better.

[derpderp]

Hey a Swedish guy, the Swedish Democrats got some seats in the election, wasn't expecting that. core_upt is right though it has been happening all across Europe. Denmark is the hotbed of it though, the main party has a strong anti-immigration policy and has been in power for awhile.

I think in a way the votes for the far right are working as a protest vote, the more and more power they gain the more likely main parties with pretty open immigration policies will be looking the change their own policy.

The BNP in the UK has to be one of the more radical anti-immigration groups in Europe. They have a policy that basically says if they were elected they would give every immigrant a plane ticket back home. The UKIP has a more moderate limited immigration policy. It was a key political issue in the UK elections, as I see it this will become more common in European elections.

My opinion? The USA & Canada need to call up Russia and plan a preemptive strike on Europe before they re-arm, especially the Germans, it is the only way.

[core_upt]

Right wing parties will continue to gain voters, and may win seats even, as is the case in Sweden, but I don't think they will ever hold enough to make the radical changes they want. Governments in Europe are headed more to the right, but don't expect too many massive changes. And, it should be noted that the gained popularity of the Swedish Democrats is seen as an embarrassment by many Swedes, native and non native.

Also, I'm not a Swede - just living here for a year while going to school. but it is interesting. I live in the city that was discussed in this thread: http://forums.beyond.ca/st/283987/swedens-problem/ Sweden has some issues with immigration, but don't think this video is indicative of life here - it isn't close to this! Malmo had a wave of immigration in the 70's and things were 'fine' then, save for a lack of housing for everyone. And Malmo now isn't, overall, worse then it was decades ago.

And like derpderp says, these parties are a call to action for the parties in real power to re-examine policies.

[Cos]

Originally posted by kvg
I'm from Vancouver and it is multicultural. Calgary is more of a melting pot and I don't see anywhere the near the amount of conflict here. There is a huge difference between the two.

+1

[ZenOps]

As for "welfare state".

I can see how that happens from a social perspective. Immigrants tend to not do things that locals do.

For instance: Locals will often see $30,000 (Canada) to $100,000 (US) debts as reasonable for a post secondary student loan, where you are obligated to pay money back to the govt.

Immigrants will sometimes not take that level or risk, instead either taking a lower paying service job, or relying on scholarships.

When the local student gets out - they expect a higher wage even if there are no jobs in their specialized field. In tough economic times, there are none - and some end up defaulting.

Which puts the squeeze on basic jobs, and in tough economic times - the guy who didn't put 4 years into debt, sometimes comes out ahead. The immigrant hardworking but not quite Phd Latino guy - comes out ahead (And also, the gold digging Chinese guy who spent all summer in the mountains and found a billion dollar gold deposit, comes out ahead)

Education is very very important - but it is not a silver bullet. Governments also tend to love people who get into debt, just like banks do. Goverments also tend to be fooled by "numbers" where locals will get into debt and pay off debts, which makes it artificially look like they are doing "more".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0zEXdDO5JU Replace "Big house" with "Rocket science education at a time when Nasa is shutting down."

[cycosis]

Im surprised this hasn't actually come from France. When I was in Deutschland this spring, it was pretty evident of a large turkish community from the kebap places evrywhere, (which are freakin delicious), I felt as though they were pretty integrated. Mind you I only lived and toured around the south (Stuttgart, Reutlingen, Munich, Ulm, Munsingen).

France on the other hand has amssive problems in the SOuth. I visited some family who live in St Etienne, about 45 minutes out of Lyon where the prblems are so bad, the are knocking down entire apartment buildings that were full of Muslim/africans from Tunisia. My family claims the kids dont go to school, the parents dont care and get government handouts, and basically jsut create anarchy stealing cars and setting them on fire all the time.

Seems pretty crazy that the governemtn knocks down entire buildings in an attempt to disperse their communities.

[Canucks3322]

I'm Canadian of Chinese decent and my people came to build the railroad here and work in the mines and had to suffer being secluded in their Chinatowns and doing shit jobs for decades...you never heard them complain or bitch about this and that...they even fought in the World Wars to get finally get a vote. They paid their dues and respected the Canadian people here. They were thankful for the Canadians for accepting them................not naming names, but these days, immigrants coming from certain countries.....ummmmm, can't really say the same...they are nothing but a burden on our society. Just sayin'.....not saying that all immigrants are like this these days, but there definitely needs to be immigration reforms and better screening for those that truely want to come to Canada and appreciate us.

[revelations]

Originally posted by Canucks3322
I'm Canadian of Chinese decent and my people came to build the railroad here and work in the mines and had to suffer being secluded in their Chinatowns and doing shit jobs for decades...you never heard them complain or bitch about this and that...they even fought in the World Wars to get finally get a vote. They paid their dues and respected the Canadian people here. They were thankful for the Canadians for accepting them................not naming names, but these days, immigrants coming from certain countries.....ummmmm, can't really say the same...they are nothing but a burden on our society. Just sayin'.....not saying that all immigrants are like this these days, but there definitely needs to be immigration reforms and better screening for those that truely want to come to Canada and appreciate us.

These people build a lot of the early Canadian infrastructure (eg. rail roads) and were treated worse than most farm animals. Harper even apologized officially a few years ago to them. Not saying it was appropriate treatment on our part, but they behaved like proper immigrants.

+1 to the Vancouver vs Calgary comment, thats one of the main reason I moved to here from there.
MODERN Chinese immigrants (read - FOBs) generally dont care about anyone else except their own immediate kind and it shows in how they drive.

[Kloubek]

That article doesn't really go into why multiculturalism isn't working, so much as to just simply bitch about them not learning German.

And on that, I agree. If you are going to move to a country, you should be REQUIRED to speak the language.

[ZenOps]

Originally posted by revelations


These people build a lot of the early Canadian infrastructure (eg. rail roads) and were treated worse than most farm animals. Harper even apologized officially a few years ago to them. Not saying it was appropriate treatment on our part, but they behaved like proper immigrants.

+1 to the Vancouver vs Calgary comment, thats one of the main reason I moved to here from there.
MODERN Chinese immigrants (read - FOBs) generally dont care about anyone else except their own immediate kind and it shows in how they drive.

Oh, I wouldn't go that far.

The (British) government actually had very little power back then. You can't treat people really badly - if you don't have enough people to treat them badly.

There are many white families in Alberta that got their wealth from squatting because there was so little actual law enforcement and or government supervision.

The place where the Brit government had *some* power was in the actual sea transport immigration part, but once you made it to Canada - it was pretty much "You made it!"

Even today, there are only 28,700 RCMP officers (Royal Canadian Mounted Police being of course the mainstay back a century ago) Back a century ago when Fort Calgary was just 4,000 people (mostly Chinese) there might have been a couple dozen RCMP officers for all of Alberta....

Wild West is very accurate, lawlessness could have ruled the land, but if history I read is accurate, everyone was too busy squatting land, and digging for gold (and then oil) Building the rail was done as a very prestigious job "engineer-ing" just like how "mining" is a very prestigious job in Chile.

White peeps at the time were farming, noone had a specialized snobby type job really.

The lawlessness does sort of extend to today. Prostitution is probably legal today, because we have been too busy squeezing copper, gold and oil out of the land - to care.

I could and may write a book about the symbiotic relationship between the British and Chinese Monarchies (thiis is of course before communism hit in the 50's) helped to build Canada at a rapid pace.

[BrknFngrs]

I always feel bad for the hard working and respectable immigrants when these types of stories come out. Instead of just blaming immigrants as a whole I really wish that they would just outright blame the groups that cause problems; it's no big surprise that the same group are causing problems for nearly all of the countries with immigration issues.

[calgary403]

Originally posted by Canucks3322
I'm Canadian of Chinese decent and my people came to build the railroad here and work in the mines and had to suffer being secluded in their Chinatowns and doing shit jobs for decades...you never heard them complain or bitch about this and that...they even fought in the World Wars to get finally get a vote. They paid their dues and respected the Canadian people here. They were thankful for the Canadians for accepting them................not naming names, but these days, immigrants coming from certain countries.....ummmmm, can't really say the same...they are nothing but a burden on our society. Just sayin'.....not saying that all immigrants are like this these days, but there definitely needs to be immigration reforms and better screening for those that truely want to come to Canada and appreciate us.

Immigrants coming here and not trying to adopt to our customs is a slap in the face to the people that gave everything they had to make this country what it is. The people who made this country come from alot of different backgrounds. It is the new immigrants (not all) who don't really want to integrate. They want to live in their own communities in our country. My g/f parents moved here from Vietnam over 20 years ago and refuse to speak English. Only associate with other fob Vietnamese people and don't really give a damn what happens to this country. Those type of people are the problem. It is also pretty sad because I'm sure there are millions of people who would love a chance to come here and work and provide for their families and embrace our country for what it is. Those are the type of immigrants we need.

[Ven]

When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Seems so simple. But I suppose if there's no motivation to do it, then people won't. I guess that means creating a motivation.