Rememberance Day: The Poppy

[Cos]

I bought a couple. I dont wear them EVERY DAY so I didnt vote in the poll. However I do wear it most of the time. Sometimes it is just annoying with the jacket on or whatever.

[derpderp]

Originally posted by projekz


Good point, I wonder if the Japanese and the Germans have remembrance day

Nah, Germans generally feel pretty bad about all that time in history. Japanese honor lots of dead warriors from WW2 and the imperial age but it is the reason why everyone in Asia hates them because they act like things like the rape of Nanking was nothing serious, then play the pity card over the atomic bomb.

[Vanner]

Good grief ... as Charlie Brown would say. This year having seen so few people wearing poppies around the sidewalks - had left me bit of a shock. I donated and wear a poppy as I have for years because of my three family members fought in both great wars.

With them in my family and had heard some stories about them is why I wear a poppy - to honor for their courage to fight.

I don't think I can fight with guns like that way as it is.

[DayGlow]

Wow people can politicize anything these days. Remembrance day isn't about pro or anti war, it is a solemn day to remember the horrific human cost that comes with war. To wear a poppy doesn't Romanies war, it is to show respect to those who lived that hell and to those who lost their lives, be it because they believed in the cause or because they simply were there.

I honor the men and women that went to war, not because what they believed in or that they fought on the side of good, but because they did something that no man or woman should have to do.

They are heroes because while they were in hell they laid it on the line and fought simply to protect the man beside them. Many gave their lives to help their brother out.

Save the political ramblings for any other day, this day is to show respect for those who lost their lives in a time at war, and the tragic cost of war itself.

'Lest We Forget'

and I think too many have forgotten.

[ZEDGE]

Originally posted by Modelexis


This is at least a consistent position to hold on this topic, I'll give you that much.

Maybe I just don't understand how you can have heros fighting heros.

Yea.. the Nazis slaughtering millions of Jews, Pols, Gays, Gypsies were truly heros. We should remember them too, such a noble cause. They only wanted to spread their love to the rest of Europe.. clearly. It all makes sense to me now.. Why did we go over there to help out the invaded nations.. what a waste, we should have let Germany take its rightful place and exterminate the rest of the people it felt were inferior. Europe and the world would be much better off. Lets remember that next time rather than some stupid kids dying being told what to do.

[CUG]

Back on topic:

I think we're being trolled by the people who make the poppies. I think they're made to fall out so that we feel guilty and buy more. I'm 110% okay with that, but like someone else said, I'd pay $$ for one that doesn't fall out leaving me to feel guilty when confronted.



I also read something where Modelexis is stating that Nazi War Criminals are heroes of his? Even when it's an agreed statement of fact by all parties involved that the Nazi regime was completely inhumane, violent and genocidal, Modelexis is trying to present them as a moral equal to Canadian soldiers.

Wow; new levels, even if he is attempting noble objectivity. I'm as enraged as an over-the-top middle eastern activist right now.

[googe]

Originally posted by derpderp


Nah, Germans generally feel pretty bad about all that time in history. Japanese honor lots of dead warriors from WW2 and the imperial age but it is the reason why everyone in Asia hates them because they act like things like the rape of Nanking was nothing serious, then play the pity card over the atomic bomb.

You really should have ended that last sentence where the comma is.

[derpderp]

Originally posted by googe


You really should have ended that last sentence where the comma is.

Sorry, but the Japanese do abuse the pity card over the atomic bombs, I understand the atomic bombing was pretty brutal, but it doesn't just suddenly make everything ok on their end. They use it to pass a victim mentality on a war where Japan was responsible for the brutal death of millions of Chinese, yet still refuse to actually provide any formal apology. But its ok, the bomb made the slate clean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contest..._using_a_sword

[CUG]

^ Dude the Japanese were gnarly vicious. LOL who the fuck doesn't know that?

Edit: and how the hell did the losers of the war end up making the best cars? Was it a fucking trade?

[msommers]

Some of these responses in here are not what I was expecting at all. Extremely disappointing.

[mx73someday]

I'm with Modelexis on this one, a bit surprised you stuck it out. Some people are too heavily indoctrinated to be able to debate rationally. It's apparent in the personal attacks and strawman arguments.

Props to those who actually spend the day remembering the true victims of war. People who are reckless with their lives and who fight at the whim of strangers calling themselves government are neither heroic nor worth remembering. The cowards who call themselves government use this day to spread nationalist sentiment to secure another generation of vulnerable youths.

[texasnick]

Originally posted by CUG
^ Dude the Japanese were gnarly vicious. LOL who the fuck doesn't know that?

Edit: and how the hell did the losers of the war end up making the best cars? Was it a fucking trade?

Because after WWII the US and its allies granted a LOT of war-ravaged countries a LOT of money. Japan got something like $2.4 billion between 1945 and 1953. Western Europe got a similar economic "stimulus package" with the Marshall plan. Japan and Germany spent the money rebuilding their industry, and ended up with a better manufacturing process than the US did at the time.


This is an interesting debate.....Correct me if I'm wrong, but wearing the poppy is supposed to remind us that there were/are a lot of men and women that have lost their lives for their country and have since become part of the landscape (for lack of a better thought). Aren't they supposed to signify that their memory lives on because poppies started growing in the fields from all the bodies after the battles of WWI?

Any soldier from any country, whether they fought for Imperialist Japan or for Nazi Germany or for the US or Canada, has my respect. Just because you don't agree with war doesn't mean you should be blinded from the fact that there are people out there willing to put up with stuff like that so that you don't have to if you don't want to. Making the conscious decision to give up your life at a young age and take up arms for a cause you believe in gets my respect.

People like Modelexis need to realize that even if they disagree with war, it still happens. When assholes like Hitler and Tojo's generals are banging on the back door, intending on getting what they want, you should actually be damn thankful that there are people in your own country willing to try and deal with that. Call them criminals if you want, but just realize that they may not agree with war either, and are there because they feel the need to protect what you have.

[googe]

Originally posted by texasnick
Making the conscious decision to give up your life at a young age and take up arms for a cause you believe in gets my respect.

That's a very strange thing to respect. I'm going to assume you didn't really think it through.

Or you really do respect the columbine killers, and the Manson family?

Usually, that just makes you somebody else's gullible fool. There are very few exceptions.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by mx73someday

Props to those who actually spend the day remembering the true victims of war. People who are reckless with their lives and who fight at the whim of strangers calling themselves government are neither heroic nor worth remembering. The cowards who call themselves government use this day to spread nationalist sentiment to secure another generation of vulnerable youths.

I agree. War was so much better before nationalist sentiment. Wealthy aristocrats who could afford the most mercenaries, roaming the countryside raping every woman they could get and killing farmers for their food was a far better way to go about things. If we're going to kill eachother it should at least be for personal gain, not for irrational group think.

Gustav II may have fallen while leading his national army against Wallenstein's band of private contractors, but it was the beginning of the end of armies just killing for money (and sex) rather than a sense of nationa duty. Why couldn't the Scandinavians just stick to raping and pillaging for personal gains sake rather than defending religious reforms?

The world would have been a better place if the private armies of the Catholic church could have quelled the personal freedoms of millions of Central and Northern Europeans. But no, some pale faced asshole had to instill a sense of national duty in his people and unite them behind a common flag. While the noble mercenaries of the Holy Roman Empire fled for personal preservation, the shameful armies of Sweden rolled through the landscape and the next thing you know we've got Lutherans popping up left, right and centre and the downfall of life as we know it.

[mx73someday]

There's little point in using pre-enlightenment examples when there are plenty of 20th century examples of how nationalism helped people called government to secure the power to kills millions of people. Nationalism is the enemy of individual freedom and liberty, what's good for "Canada" is rarely good for me.

[dezmarez]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties


Check out the civilian casualties.....


You wear a poppy to respect those that went to stop those deaths, and you should be thankful they did and kept the civilian casualties for Canadians at the number it did.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by mx73someday
There's little point in using pre-enlightenment examples when there are plenty of 20th century examples of how nationalism helped people called government to secure the power to kills millions of people.

And there's little point in claiming that nationalism is the only method to recruit people to kill millions. Government's at least have to pretend to care about the other side in order to maintain relationships after the killing is over, this was not the case prior to national armies.

Nationalism is the enemy of individual freedom and liberty, what's good for "Canada" is rarely good for me.

A universal idea of personal freedom and liberty is a government construct, so the fact you can claim to have any rights at all is thanks to what is good for 'Canada.' There are no natural laws for personal freedom or liberty, there is certainly no right to property or to life, the only reason these concepts exist is because groups of people got together to agree upon them.

[mx73someday]

Originally posted by kertejud2

A universal idea of personal freedom and liberty is a government construct, so the fact you can claim to have any rights at all is thanks to what is good for 'Canada.'

How can personal freedom and liberty be a construct of people called government when they routinely violate personal freedom and liberty? What they claim is very different from what they practice.

There are no natural laws for personal freedom or liberty, there is certainly no right to property or to life, the only reason these concepts exist is because groups of people got together to agree upon them.

No groups of people agreed on them. One group of individuals decided for the rest (more individuals) and then imposed a bunch of other stuff. One small group of people claimed the majority of a continent and proclaimed it their own (Canada), then imposed their will on anyone who happened to be living there.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by mx73someday

How can personal freedom and liberty be a construct of people called government when they routinely violate personal freedom and liberty? What they claim is very different from what they practice.

Its a Catch 22, its hard to define personal freedom or liberty without violating it. Your idea of personal freedom and liberty differs from others, which creates chaos.

No groups of people agreed on them. One group of individuals decided for the rest (more individuals) and then imposed a bunch of other stuff.

Your second sentence makes your first wrong.

One small group of people claimed the majority of a continent and proclaimed it their own (Canada), then imposed their will on anyone who happened to be living there.

The only real mistake was not getting rid of the original inhabitants (I don't hear the Beothuks complaining).

But that's what happens when one group of people who believe in the ability to own land meet people who don't believe you can own land. If you want to criticize how the Crown came to own 9M+ square kilometres of real estate, you can't be an advocate of owning property.

[mx73someday]

Originally posted by kertejud2

If you want to criticize how the Crown came to own 9M+ square kilometres of real estate, you can't be an advocate of owning property.

Why not?