Harper on Afghanistan; Democracy not needed

[dawerks]

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/edito...ys-for-america

But that's ok, ole boy Ignatieff is no better. The Conservative agenda is to obfuscate, confuse, deny and hide. De facto, the Liberals are blindly co-operating.

Does this outrage anyone except me? The Afghan mission was to end in 2011, now it's not. No discussion, no vote.

Who is the saviour? The BLOC?? Oh man.

This just in; The Taliban cannot be defeated.

[Feruk]

I'm outraged that politicians are making calls that Generals on the ground should be making. Democracy fueled by the screams of mass media shouldn't play a part in what happens once we've committed to war.

[DayGlow]

This a surprise to anyone? Selective hearing on people who oppose as they have been saying for years the combat mission will end, but personal will stay beyond the date for non-combat functions needed for rebuilding the country.

[Sugarphreak]

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[Modelexis]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
I would have preferd they just bomb the shit out of them and carry on instead.... from a humanitarian standpoint it makes sense, pulling out cold would lead to a civilian genocide event taking place.

These two sentences seem to be wild contradictions.
Do you not think that bombing 'the shit out of "them"' would lead to civilian genocide?

[Sugarphreak]

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[Modelexis]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
They knew where the Taliban training and operational camps were located, no need to bomb cities or farmers.

Just like they knew where bin laden was or where their weapons of mass destruction were?

[Sugarphreak]

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[Modelexis]

I prefer no invasion.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by dawerks
http://www.thestar.com/opinion/edito...ys-for-america

But that's ok, ole boy Ignatieff is no better. The Conservative agenda is to obfuscate, confuse, deny and hide. De facto, the Liberals are blindly co-operating.

Does this outrage anyone except me? The Afghan mission was to end in 2011, now it's not. No discussion, no vote.

Who is the saviour? The BLOC?? Oh man.

This just in; The Taliban cannot be defeated.

Is this something you'd be willing to hold an election over? If you're a CPC voter who doesn't support the extension would you change your vote as a result? Do you think an election called because of this vote would change the current house make-up in any significant way?

If the answer to any of these questions is 'no' then that's why its being passed. The CPC have their agenda and the Libs know that it isn't worth "going to war over" leading to an election. As for the Bloc, they're doing what their constituents want.

[dawerks]

Originally posted by kertejud2



Is this something you'd be willing to hold an election over? If you're a CPC voter who doesn't support the extension would you change your vote as a result? Do you think an election called because of this vote would change the current house make-up in any significant way?

If the answer to any of these questions is 'no' then that's why its being passed. The CPC have their agenda and the Libs know that it isn't worth "going to war over" leading to an election. As for the Bloc, they're doing what their constituents want.

So only the Bloc is listening to their constituents? Every poll I've seen says Canadians don't want to be in Afghanistan.

Harper himself said there is no way any Canadians would be in Afghanistan past 2011.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by dawerks

So only the Bloc is listening to their constituents?

The Bloc doesn't really need to listen to their Constituents. Support bills that see good things going to Quebec and don't support things those federalist "Rest of Canada" parties support. Being the Bloc leader is the easiest job in politics.

Every poll I've seen says Canadians don't want to be in Afghanistan.

Harper himself said there is no way any Canadians would be in Afghanistan past 2011.

Harper also said he wouldn't appoint any senators and was willing to work with the opposition. Politicians say a lot of things.

As for the poll, if the question came up again and asked:

1) Would you be willing to have another election because of this issue
2) Would you vote Liberal in that election

And the answer to both was an overwhelming 'Yes' then the Liberals would have defeated the government over this. Because the answer to both would likely be 'no', they didn't.

[dawerks]

Do you want the war to continue?

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by dawerks
Do you want the war to continue?

The war will continue with or without us there. I follow the opinion of "if they need us there, we'll stay there." I wouldn't accept a continuation of the same combat action, but begrudgingly support the action to remain to aid in the training of the Afghan army. If they're not capable of maintaining order themselves then the whole mission would have been for nought and Afghanistan would be in the same position as it was when we arrived.


So to answer my own question, I wouldn't want the country to go to an election over this issue, if only because it would see millions of dollars spent to achieve the same end. An election wouldn't shift the balance of power and we'd be at the exact same position we are in now as a result. What good does that do for anybody, be they Canadian or Afghani?

[Xtrema]

Voice of reason, ^ right there.

[ZenOps]

Well, at least hes not being hypocritical.

If Canada were a democracy:

Proposition 2: Continue Afghan War []Yes []No

[thetransporter]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
I was strongly against us going into Afganistan from the start, I would have preferd they just bomb the shit out of them and carry on instead.

But the remaining mission is a non-combat role, it takes our troops out of immediate danger on the front lines and puts them into a training role so everybody can pull out of Afganistan without it collapsing and being taken over by war lords.

I am all for this move... from a humanitarian standpoint it makes sense, pulling out cold would lead to a civilian genocide event taking place.

what did these people do to you to bomb the shit out of them? these people have nothing just a home built out of sand if they are lucky.

[Toma]

Originally posted by ZenOps
Well, at least hes not being hypocritical.

If Canada were a democracy:

Proposition 2: Continue Afghan War []Yes []No

Exactly....

If this were a democracy, we SHOULD have direct vote on major issues... like...uhm.. WAR, but instead? Oh, vote for one of two parties and HOPE one of them acts in your best interest. lol

[Sugarphreak]

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[dawerks]

Originally posted by kertejud2


The war will continue with or without us there. I follow the opinion of "if they need us there, we'll stay there." I wouldn't accept a continuation of the same combat action, but begrudgingly support the action to remain to aid in the training of the Afghan army. If they're not capable of maintaining order themselves then the whole mission would have been for nought and Afghanistan would be in the same position as it was when we arrived.


So to answer my own question, I wouldn't want the country to go to an election over this issue, if only because it would see millions of dollars spent to achieve the same end. An election wouldn't shift the balance of power and we'd be at the exact same position we are in now as a result. What good does that do for anybody, be they Canadian or Afghani?

You're not a politician. I asked you a simple question;

Do you want the war to continue? Do YOU want to send Canadian soldiers to Afghanistan?

You. I give you the power to answer this simple question, not as a politician or someone being clever, but as a human being.

Would you order a fellow Canadian to fight where the outcome has NO meaning (don't bullshit yourself, it's irrelevant what we do in Afghanistan).

My answer; No. I wouldn't want any more Canadians killed in Afghanistan. The war is lost, we cannot win it. It's a war on a way of thinking. You can't defeat that with arms. There is absolutely no proof of that in human history.