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Thread: Harper on Afghanistan; Democracy not needed

  1. #21
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    Originally posted by dawerks


    You're not a politician. I asked you a simple question;
    And I answered it. Quite clearly in fact. What part confused you?

    Do you want the war to continue? Do YOU want to send Canadian soldiers to Afghanistan?
    You just asked me two questions.

    Do I want the war to continue?
    Of course not. That's a stupid question and you're an idiot for asking it. It brings nothing constructive to the issue at hand because pulling out of Afghanistan doesn't end the war any more than carpet bombing the entire country does.

    Do I want to send Canadian soldiers to Afghanistan?
    Yes. This question's phrasing is also stupid. Canadian soldiers are already there, you should have asked 'Do I want Canadian soldiers to stay in Afghanistan past 2011?' in which case my answer is also yes for a reason stated in the previous post.

    You. I give you the power to answer this simple question, not as a politician or someone being clever, but as a human being.
    As a human being I think its imperative to help those who are not able to fight for themselves.

    Would you order a fellow Canadian to fight where the outcome has NO meaning (don't bullshit yourself, it's irrelevant what we do in Afghanistan).
    You don't actually like rational discussion do you? The phrasing of this question changes the parameters from your previous one and is designed to illicit only one response. I can do that to

    Would you stand idly by while people who are unable to fight back are being oppressed?

    Your stance on what is being accomplished also prevents any sort of rational discussion. Is Afghanistan in a better position than it was 10 years ago? Is it better to be an Afghani child today compared to 2000? If the answer to either is yes than the mission is not meaningless and having Canadian soldiers there is important and there's many more things beyond that can be looked at as well.


    My answer; No. I wouldn't want any more Canadians killed in Afghanistan. The war is lost, we cannot win it. It's a war on a way of thinking. You can't defeat that with arms. There is absolutely no proof of that in human history.
    If we pull out, doesn't that mean that the Taliban's way of thinking won with arms? How do you change the way of thinking in Afghanistan without combating the Taliban anyway? The fact remains that there's plenty of examples of complete overhauls of public thought as a result of fighting and war. The French Revolution is my favourite example, so much bloodshed to completely turn European political thought and structure on its head. I'd bring up more, but I fear I may be acting too much like a politician for your liking.

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    Originally posted by Sugarphreak


    Um...



    These people btw, not civilians
    what does that have to do with the civilians of Afghanistan? or even Canada?
    westnet speedtest ping me


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    Originally posted by kertejud2


    As a human being I think its imperative to help those who are not able to fight for themselves.

    I don't know you, but maybe you can answer what you've done to help oppressed people fight for themselves?

    Just wondering what you did to help the genocide in Sudan?
    Or the summary executions in China?
    Or one of any of a thousand events around the world?

    I'm not a politician, I can answer honestly and say, we cannot help the Afghanis', and when we leave (and we will) it will be all in vain. It's inevitable.

    I don't have delusions of 'oh, we're saving the world' or such nonsense. I see dead Canadians, wasted resources, lies told and false hope given.

    The bloodshed of the French Revolution was the result of the mindset change. It was the outcome, the cause of the change was not the guillotine . You have the horse before the cart.

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    ...
    Last edited by Sugarphreak; 06-30-2019 at 11:32 PM.

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    Originally posted by kertejud2

    As a human being I think its imperative to help those who are not able to fight for themselves.
    It's easy to say things like this but somehow I don't think you practice this in real life, especially if you vote. Your imperative is to take care of your own interests, like everyone else in the world.

    If Canadian soldiers were interested in helping people who couldn't fight for themselves they would've attack the US soldiers who invaded Afghanistan. You can hardly argue that the US soldiers were helping Afghans. They went in and destroyed the order, the economy, the infrastructure and killed and displaced many civilians.

  6. #26
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    Originally posted by dawerks

    I don't know you, but maybe you can answer what you've done to help oppressed people fight for themselves?

    Just wondering what you did to help the genocide in Sudan?
    Or the summary executions in China?
    Or one of any of a thousand events around the world?
    I do fuck all for them because I'm a Canadian. As a human being I'm obligated to think they deserve our help, as a Canadian my nation's self-interest is far more important than the lives of others.

    I'm not a politician, I can answer honestly and say, we cannot help the Afghanis', and when we leave (and we will) it will be all in vain. It's inevitable.
    You didn't answer the question. Is it better to be an Afghan child now, or during the Taliban? Afghanistan was already the deadliest place to live before the war started, now there's at least a semblance of order and humanitarianism who care about all Afghanis (not just the boys). Do you actually think nothing would change in Afghanistan if we pulled out compared to staying?

    I don't have delusions of 'oh, we're saving the world' or such nonsense. I see dead Canadians, wasted resources, lies told and false hope given.
    What were you told would happen in Afghanistan? That in less than 10 years the country would go from a third world country ruled by a fundamentalist theocracy to a rip-roaring success?

    The bloodshed of the French Revolution was the result of the mindset change It was the outcome, the cause of the change was not the guillotine . You have the horse before the cart.
    Why would there be bloodshed after a mindset change? The Revolution was about one group wanting to shift the national mindset and bringing the movement about in a violent upheaval. A civil war broke out, Paris was divided etc. In the end, after the blood settled, a new order was created. Then regressed, then came back and so forth. The Revolution wasn't the outcome, it was the process.

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    Originally posted by mx73someday


    It's easy to say things like this but somehow I don't think you practice this in real life, especially if you vote. Your imperative is to take care of your own interests, like everyone else in the world.
    As a masochist I vote all the time and occasionally help others when it would be easier to exploit them for my own self-interest, just because I enjoy the pain of being a shitty human being.

    If Canadian soldiers were interested in helping people who couldn't fight for themselves they would've attack the US soldiers who invaded Afghanistan. You can hardly argue that the US soldiers were helping Afghans. They went in and destroyed the order, the economy, the infrastructure and killed and displaced many civilians.
    Order? Economy?

    What fucking world do you live in?

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    Originally posted by kertejud2


    Order? Economy?

    What fucking world do you live in?
    If you believe there is more order under war and insurgency, then say so. I don't agree. The same goes for the economy, it might have been trivial before the invasion, but prolonged warfare doesn't help any region.

    The fact that these foreign soldiers can't leave is a good indication of the"order" they created.

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    Originally posted by mx73someday


    If you believe there is more order under war and insurgency, then say so. I don't agree.


    Before the war Afghanistan was the deadliest place on Earth. A fundamentalist theocracy with warlords and bandits running amok. The only order was brutal oppression (and this is actual oppression, not your "waaahhh, they're taxing me at gunpoint" oppression. Your idea of order and mine seem to be very different.

    The same goes for the economy, it might have been trivial before the invasion, but prolonged warfare doesn't help any region.
    Afghanistan's GDP is now around $15B. Before the invasion it was less than $5B. Not only that, but the Taliban had a nationalized economy (aside from the drug and arms dealers) while the U.S. and Canada have helped instill more free market ideals, built roads, infrastructure etc.

    How is the economy any worse?

    The fact that these foreign soldiers can't leave is a good indication of the"order" they created.
    The fact our foreign soldiers are staying to train a national army is a good indication of the progress that's being made. 8 years ago there was no such force capable of being able to maintain order themselves. Now its being done.

    And if you want to see disorder, just pull the NATO powers out of Afghanistan and watch what happens when the Taliban, Pakistan and Iran claim the leftovers.

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    It could have been argued - that if Afghanistan was left alone that eventually one warlord would have become king or emperor.

    And then it could have progressed from there into maybe a British or Chinese type monarchy.

    Pushing the populace toward democracy was plain arrogance. The people themselves are not ready for it, and is probably not even the best form of government at this point in time.

    Pushing North Korea towards democracy is probably arrogance as well.
    Fly me to the moon.

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    Originally posted by ZenOps
    It could have been argued - that if Afghanistan was left alone that eventually one warlord would have become king or emperor.

    And then it could have progressed from there into maybe a British or Chinese type monarchy.

    Pushing the populace toward democracy was plain arrogance. The people themselves are not ready for it, and is probably not even the best form of government at this point in time.

    Pushing North Korea towards democracy is probably arrogance as well.
    Possibly, but democracy since the 70's have been the most prevalent and common regime change in the world. It's a good thing that Afghani woman have some semblance of rights and freedoms, which they wouldn't have under monarchy likely or under the Taliban.

    Originally posted by dawerks


    My answer; No. I wouldn't want any more Canadians killed in Afghanistan. The war is lost, we cannot win it. It's a war on a way of thinking. You can't defeat that with arms. There is absolutely no proof of that in human history.

    Look at what Canada is doing there! Training the Afghan military to defend itself, the Taliban have entirely been forced out! Couldn't say that 8 years ago, they were just trying to protect Kandahar airport, couldn't even walk 250 feet out of the city without getting shot at!
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